ralph (the original ralph) said: <<< I was at the West Coast Sea Kayaking Symposium in 1993. It struck me as a younger crowd than the one at the LL Bean one.>>> <snip> I phoned the San Juan County Sheriff's Office at friday Harbor today. They figure the kayak went over Thursday during the strong NW winds. The first kayaker found (Steve) was clad in non-immersion apparel, with the exception of wetsuit booties. He had a PFD on. Details were not available on the second paddler's attire (Scott), other than a PFD was close by and it "looked like it had slipped off." Maybe part of the risk profile with younger paddlers (I can say that now) is the lack of funds for proper thermal/immersion apparel and related equipment. I know, 'cause it was years before I bought my first proper wetsuit (though I did rent a few times). <<<.I hope you and others keep following this tragedy.>>> I phoned Chris at SK Magazine, for follow up possibilities by SK. If anyone had details subsequent to what is already known, perhaps you could pass it on to him. I'm not following up further, as I have enough Canadian deaths backed-up. I also learned today that Ray W Johanson (sp) died in the arctic recently (he was the one who won the Arctic Kayak Race). This is a very tragic event, and has hit some folks hard. He was an unassuming, gentle man who has done some amazing trips and crossings -- things most of us will never know about or appreciate. Damn the cold ocean. Its no respecter of person. <<<Normally I don't associate doubles with fatal accidents. Reaching into the deepest corners of my brain, I recall only one such tragedy in a double and it was in a Klepper which is so unusual>>> <snip> We have had some here on the west coast too. I've just finished Part One of an article on hypothermia for the CPA Newsletter, and I touch on the "double-trouble" issue. Perhaps I can send it to PW in the near future, after the issue comes out. Essentially, a pair of solo double paddlers can easily rescue a their double, normally, but the conditions that would cause a double to go over would require more time and skill to effect a rescue, in the conditions likely to flip such vessel. Without proper immersion apparel, in a weather tide situation, it would be difficult indeed. BTW, the reports said the double kayak of Scott's and Steve's had a few scratches. Out local paper (the one that screwed up the Storm Island story), reported that the kayak had been found splintered apart. Reporters! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:47 AM 9/26/00 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: >I phoned the San Juan County Sheriff's Office at friday Harbor today. >They figure the kayak went over Thursday during the strong NW winds. The (snip) Wasn't someone on this list talking about keeping a record of sea kayaking deaths in the US and Canada, for statistical or whatever purposes? I just noticed that there was a surf kayaking death in Hurricane Florance waves in North Carolina on like Sept. 12 or 13. For more information: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000913/ts/weather_florence_dc_6.html -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 9/26/00 7:47 AM, Doug Lloyd at dlloyd_at_telus.net wrote: snip > We have had some here on the west coast too. I've just finished Part One > of an article on hypothermia for the CPA Newsletter, and I touch on the > "double-trouble" issue. Perhaps I can send it to PW in the near future, > after the issue comes out. Essentially, a pair of solo double paddlers > can easily rescue a their double, normally, but the conditions that > would cause a double to go over would require more time and skill to > effect a rescue, in the conditions likely to flip such vessel. Without > proper immersion apparel, in a weather tide situation, it would be > difficult indeed. snip Having owned two double sea kayaks and having some experience practicing rescues in them I would not say that recovery from a capsize of a double is easy. The volume of water is huge compared to a single kayak and a swamped double will sit deep down in the water near the coaming making it very difficult to manage a recovery. Bailing in rough water can be impossible. If you read the book, "Deep Trouble" by Matt Broze and George Gronseth you will find at least four stories about accidents in double kayaks. Page 105 has a report on a double fatality in Prince William Sound, Alaska. Two brothers were in a double and capsized when they encountered a tide rip in 40 to 45 knot winds. If you are paddling a double in cold water then you should be using sea socks!!!! Go to page 148 and read what Matt Broze has to say on this subject. It takes a little while to get used to a sea sock but it's worth the hassle. I use one in my single skin boat, along with bow and stern float bags. We will never know the details of this recent tragic accident in which two young men died but if you read the following three stories from "Deep Trouble" you will a have pretty good idea of the nightmare they experienced. Page 12, Drifting with he Current Page 146, Ferry Rescue in the San Juans Page 155, Rosario Strait Rescue The victims in these accidents survived but in some cases were very close to dying from hypothermia with core temperatures in the 80 degree (F) range and one individual had a core temp. of 77 degrees. Read these stories and see what it's like to try to recover from a double kayak capsize. The same story keeps repeating, with slight variations, as it has with these two college students. A double kayak, no emersion clothing, usually no VHF radio, currents, wind, no sea sock, capsize, failed recovery, hypothermia, if no rescue within 50 t0 60 minutes- death. I don't have any information on if the two college students had sea socks but I would be surprised if they did because I hardly ever see anyone use them. If only they would have had dry suits, a VHF radio, and sea socks their chances of survival would have been so much greater. If you paddle a double in cold water, get sea socks. Use them. Do you have friends that use a double? See if you can talk them into getting sea socks. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Rex Roberton > If you paddle a double in cold water, get sea socks. Use them. > Do you have > friends that use a double? See if you can talk them into > getting sea socks. > > Don't you have bulkheads in your American doubles? Our Southern Light has four bulkheads, two of which are pod type seats that cut down the cockpit volume. There is a centre storage compartment as well as the normal fore and aft ones. When the kayak is righted after being upside down it has about four inches of water in the cockpits, and is riding high, no worse than a single I would think. Paddling in cold water? Get wet (or dry) suits. Wear them. Allan Singleton Hamilton NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Allan (et al) > > From: Rex Roberton > > If you paddle a double in cold water, get sea socks. Use them. Allan wrote - >Don't you have bulkheads in your American doubles? Our Southern Light has >four bulkheads, two of which are pod type seats that cut down the cockpit >volume. There is a centre storage compartment as well as the normal fore and >aft ones. Haven't you seen North American kayaks? Bulkheads fitted as far away from the cockpit rim as possible to give as much cockpit flooded volume as possible. If the Seayak is representitive of European kayaks then they are no better. I think there are some Australian kayaks using minimal cockpit volumes the same as NZ ones. Alex . . Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex Roberton wrote: > on 9/26/00 7:47 AM, Doug Lloyd at dlloyd_at_telus.net wrote: > > snip > > Essentially, a pair of solo double paddlers > > can easily rescue a their double, normally, but the conditions that > > would cause a double to go over would require more time and skill to > > effect a rescue, in the conditions likely to flip such vessel. Without > > proper immersion apparel, in a weather tide situation, it would be > > difficult indeed. > snip > > Having owned two double sea kayaks and having some experience practicing > rescues in them I would not say that recovery from a capsize of a double is > easy. The volume of water is huge compared to a single kayak and a swamped > double will sit deep down in the water near the coaming making it very > difficult to manage a recovery. Bailing in rough water can be impossible. > Rex, that was kind of my point. Rescuing a double in summer in choppy, but not too terrible conditions, is actually very easy. You know the routine: one person gets in the stern while the bow paddler in the water stabilizes the craft. Then the stern paddler braces, while the bow paddler gets in. There are variations, but I've seen people who are "experienced" get back in very quickly indeed. Your point about sea sock is well taken. Heck, all your points are well taken. You gave a list of gear which it sounds like these guys didn't have. Perhaps they should not have been out in the conditions they had encountered in the first place, assuming it was a simple case of capsize in rough conditions. We lost a couple off Victoria in a Klepper a few years ago. I know for a fact the couple did not have a lot of rescue skills. Their friends also said they were kind of reckless. Recklessness comes in many forms, and the line between adventure and irresponsibility is a fine one, ameliorated somewhat by preparation, skill development, and carrying proper gear like sea socks, etc. Over the years, I've seen a lot of "action" out on the water, including numerous weather tide situations. I've seen groups of single kayak kayakers, scarred to death (as a group, even). Though the number of solo doubles I've run across are few, the individuals in these doubles always seemed a lot less worried and felt a lot safer - and were actually enjoying themselves. Some of them were more experienced than others, for sure, but I always feel like they were an accident waiting to happen. Thanks for your advice Rex. next time I meet such people, I'll remember your post, and mention the sea sock, etc., rather than just shake my head. BTW, it was Ken Fink who mentions every year at the PT Symposium, the easabiliyt of a solo double rescue in his talk on oceanography and sea conditions. I took him to task on the point last time I attended. Enjoy your skin boat with your inner body condom, Rex :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: SNIPPED > Rex, that was kind of my point. Rescuing a double in summer in choppy, but not > too terrible conditions, is actually very easy. You know the routine: one person > gets in the stern while the bow paddler in the water stabilizes the craft. Then > the stern paddler braces, while the bow paddler gets in. There are variations, > but I've seen people who are "experienced" get back in very quickly indeed. Your > point about sea sock is well taken. In real rough conditions, any rescue is difficult whether it involves two single kayakers in an all-in-the-water situation or two paddlers overboard from a double. In lesser rough conditions, the double is probably easier but you do have all that water to empty out and not the advantage of the T-rescue emptying out you have with two boats. Sea socks and lots of air bags are critical to reduce the amount of water that can get in. That is why Feathercraft back in 1993 made sea socks standard equipment in all their boats, even the then recently-introduced K-Light which they wanted to keep as low price as possible, rather than leave the sea socks as an optional accessory. It is also why a few years later, Feathercraft started advicing paddlers in its manuals to also use air bags, i.e. the suspenders and belt approach to safety. Many foldables, however, can't easily accept a sea sock because of their spraydecks and/or coaming configurations. > We lost a couple off Victoria in a Klepper a few years ago. I know for a fact > the couple did not have a lot of rescue skills. Their friends also said they > were kind of reckless. Recklessness comes in many forms, and the line between > adventure and irresponsibility is a fine one, ameliorated somewhat by > preparation, skill development, and carrying proper gear like sea socks, etc. This is likely the same case I mentioned in my earlier response. Part of the problem is the feeling of invincibility that some Klepper owners have. The boats are great and well proven in every waterway from pole to pole and in every kind of sea condition but anything can be knocked over. When I bought my double years ago, there was never a mention of the need for airbags. And regarding PFDs was told that they weren't necessary and just to have those cheapo orange ones in the boat to please the Coast Guard. In that same vein, Klepper owners have been slow to don cold water garments. If you are convinced you won't go into the drink, why deal with all that stuffy stuff. But by the same token the invincibility that the Klepper owner has because of his boat is also shared by the non-Klepper hardshell paddler who is overly confident in his skills. Witness the Norwegian who was just killed in Newfoundland. There was a discussion back in the beginning of PaddleWise regarding leaving a margin for error. The best thing to do seems to be to figure that you, your boat can handle x conditions but then try not to push the conditions you paddle in beyond x minus y with y being some margin for safety. > > Over the years, I've seen a lot of "action" out on the water, including numerous > weather tide situations. I've seen groups of single kayak kayakers, scarred to > death (as a group, even). Though the number of solo doubles I've run across are > few, the individuals in these doubles always seemed a lot less worried and felt > a lot safer - and were actually enjoying themselves. Some of them were more > experienced than others, for sure, but I always feel like they were an accident > waiting to happen. Could be. Most doubles can handle quite a lot with the paddlers not having to do much except paddle them. This certainly helps the crew relax when others in singles are getting quite nervous. But even doubles have their limits. > > BTW, it was Ken Fink who mentions every year at the PT Symposium, the easabiliyt > of a solo double rescue in his talk on oceanography and sea conditions. I took > him to task on the point last time I attended. Hmmm. My good friend Ken Fink said that? What was his response? When I have heard him talk on the East Coast in that same lecture he usually has the double flipping over easily, especially a foldable, because of their width. :-) BTW, in Ken's one visit to NYC to paddle we managed to get him into a double Klepper for the trip to the Statue with his wife. It is a boat he normally mocks in a congenial way as the example in his lecture regarding doubles as I mention above. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralf wrote: ...<snip>... > But by the same token the invincibility that the Klepper owner has > because of his boat is also shared by the non-Klepper hardshell paddler > who is overly confident in his skills. Witness the Norwegian who was > just killed in Newfoundland. The autopsy showed that he died of a heart attack. I'm not sure what lesson we are supposed to draw by witnessing this event, except perhaps that middle-aged paddlers should not paddle without an EMT in tow. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:05 AM 9/27/00 +0000, Rex Roberton wrote: > >The same story keeps repeating, with slight variations, as it has with these >two college students. A double kayak, no emersion clothing, usually no VHF >radio, currents, wind, no sea sock, capsize, failed recovery, hypothermia, Just this morning, I extracted this from the National Park Service morning report: ---------------- 00-612 - Sleeping Bear Dunes NL (MI) - Rescue Two Ohio men were attempting to canoe the seven miles from Sleeping Bear Point to South Manitou Island on September 22nd when a large wave swamped their canoe (20-knot winds had blown up four-foot waves on the lake). The 44-year-old father and 19-year-old son spent four hours swimming in 61-degree water to the island, then hiked another mile and a half to the ranger station. They were treated for moderate hypothermia; since the father is legally blind and an insulin- dependent diabetic, they were both flown off the island that night. Both men were wearing lifejackets, which likely saved their lives. [Chris Johnson, DR, SLBE, 9/25] ---------------- They got lucky -- in a canoe, especially. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My "American" double is a Klepper Aerius II. Sea socks are meant for folding kayaks, as the fixed bulkheads tend to leak a lot ;-) Sorry, couldn't resist >> > From: Rex Roberton >> > If you paddle a double in cold water, get sea socks. Use them. > >Allan wrote - >>Don't you have bulkheads in your American doubles? Our Southern Light has >>four bulkheads, two of which are pod type seats that cut down the cockpit >>volume. There is a centre storage compartment as well as the normal fore >>and >>aft ones. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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