Doug wrote: >>>>>>The ocean cockpit is far superior, bar none, when it comes to remaining firmly ensconced in your sea kayak -- well, for me anyway. It obviously decreases the chance for skirt implosion (all things being equal, which is always, however).<<<<<<<<< The following quote is from a long letter I wrote Doug way back in 1986. Same people same arguments, same lack of objective evidence, do opinions ever change?: "You say: "Obviously, all things being equal, a smaller cockpit permits the occupant a more secure seating arrangement and presents less chance for the spray skirt to implode." When someone says: "Obviously", a red flag goes up in my head and I brace myself for the big assumption that I am going to be asked to swallow whole, without so much as a little evidence for lubrication. Since all things are not equal, and some of those things are so much more important than cockpit size, differences there are rendered meaningless." Those who give a damn about this issue and want to read a long letter about the research we did back then regarding cockpit size can e-mail me back channel and I'll send you the relevant parts and not put the rest of the Paddlewisers who don't care through another long detailed post of kayaking minutia. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: When > someone says: "Obviously", a red flag goes up in my head and > I brace myself for the big assumption that I am going to be asked > to swallow whole, without so much as a little evidence for > lubrication. Since all things are not equal, and some of those > things are so much more important than cockpit size, differences > there are rendered meaningless." > > Those who give a damn about this issue and want to read a long letter about > the research we did back then regarding cockpit size can e-mail me back > channel and I'll send you the relevant parts and not put the rest of the > Paddlewisers who don't care through another long detailed post of kayaking > minutia. > I would think that if the people on this list have put up with some of the obscure an off topic posts on the list, they would 'obviously' be very interested in this topic on cockpit size. But then again maybe not. But I am very interested Matt, please send me a copy. thanks, gabriel -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com İİİİİ furniture from the workshop http://studiofurniture.com/diary İİİİİ life as a tourist, daily journal http://studiofurniture.com/paint İİİİİ paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >>>>I also like my smaller spray skirt as it has less potential to leak, and pools less water. I could go on about these points, but don't want to incur the wrath of the "grumpy guru" :-)<<<< I just saw Chris Duff's slide show about his solo expedition around New Zealand's South Island. Incredible trip, incredibly rough weather, incredibly big surf landings at times. Among other things after the show I asked him if his spray deck ever came off his Romany Explorer which has a 32.25" long by 15.5" wide keyhole cockpit with a fairly rounded front(rather than pointed--even more spray deck area in front of him to implode). He said his spraydeck never did come off and that he had never been sucked out of the cockpit either. He also always succeeded at rolling and sometimes would have to roll repeatedly to get in through some long areas of surf. Before the trip, Chris was told by Paul Caffyn that he would never make the circumnavigation unless he used an "ocean" cockpitted Nordkapp and a rudder. Chris not only made it during a very bad weather year, he used neither an "ocean" cockpit or a rudder (or even a skeg). He used an all neoprene Snapdragon spraydeck with an optional implosion bar. Like me, he said he could not tolerate a cockpit where you can't bend your knees up to stretch out your hamstrings for long periods on the water. During the slide show I was reminded of my kayak surfing days while Chris was describing his technique for recovering from a tumble in big breakers. His technique was the same one I had settled on as well. Lock your legs in place under the thigh grips and use them to hold yourself down into the seat as hard as you can. While your lower body is tense like this you relax your upper body so it can be flopped around like a limp dishrag. Let go of the paddle with one hand but keep a firm grip on it with the other (so it is free to pivot around wildly without being pulled from your grip). This way you are not trying to fight the force of the breaker any more than necessary to stay in the cockpit and hang onto the paddle. Lastly you hold your breath until things quiet down and then find your paddle shaft with the other hand, set up, and roll back up. I forgot to ask Chris if he paddled feathered, but I assume he does because otherwise the breakers could still yank the paddle away by grabbing both blades at once (or break it or him if held an unfeathered paddle tightly in both hands. If you get a chance to see this slide show don't miss it. Chris's narration and descriptions are worth it alone, but he also had some great slides. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt: On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Matt Broze wrote: > Among other things after the show I > asked him if his spray deck ever came off his Romany Explorer which has a > 32.25" long by 15.5" wide keyhole cockpit with a fairly rounded front(rather > than pointed--even more spray deck area in front of him to implode). He said > his spraydeck never did come off and that he had never been sucked out of > the cockpit either. He also always succeeded at rolling and sometimes would > have to roll repeatedly to get in through some long areas of surf. Before > the trip, Chris was told by Paul Caffyn that he would never make the > circumnavigation unless he used an "ocean" cockpitted Nordkappand a rudder. > Chris not only made it during a very bad weather year, he used neither an > "ocean" cockpit or a rudder (or even a skeg). He used an all neoprene > Snapdragon spraydeck with an optional implosion bar. Like me, he said he > could not tolerate a cockpit where you can't bend your knees up to stretch > out your hamstrings for long periods on the water. Matt, do you know what specific model of Snapdragon neoprene spraydeck he was using? Sure seems like it did the job well! I'd really like to know because I'm getting a Romany and I love to surf, but I've had the worst luck with the skirts available here. If you don't know, please pass on his e-mail. Also, what is an implosion bar? Thanks, Josh ============================================================================== Dr. Joshua Teitelbaum Tel: [972] 3-640-6448 Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and Fax: [972] 3-641-5802 African Studies E-mail:teitelba_at_ccsg.tau.ac.il Tel Aviv University Ramat Aviv, Tel Aviv 69978 Israel ============================================================================== *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 1/19/01 2:37 AM, Matt Broze at mkayaks_at_oz.net wrote: snip > Before > the trip, Chris was told by Paul Caffyn that he would never make the > circumnavigation unless he used an "ocean" cockpitted Nordkapp and a rudder. > Chris not only made it during a very bad weather year, he used neither an > "ocean" cockpit or a rudder (or even a skeg). He used an all neoprene > Snapdragon spraydeck with an optional implosion bar. Like me, he said he > could not tolerate a cockpit where you can't bend your knees up to stretch > out your hamstrings for long periods on the water. I've used the all neoprene Snapdragon spraydeck for years. I have one for my Baidarka and one for my Mega Rio Ocean surf kayak. I don't have the implosion bar but it seems like a good idea. Here is the web address for Snapdragon Design: www.snapdragondesign.com > During the slide show I was reminded of my kayak surfing days while Chris > was describing his technique for recovering from a tumble in big breakers. > His technique was the same one I had settled on as well. Lock your legs in > place under the thigh grips and use them to hold yourself down into the seat > as hard as you can. While your lower body is tense like this you relax your > upper body so it can be flopped around like a limp dishrag. Let go of the > paddle with one hand but keep a firm grip on it with the other (so it is > free to pivot around wildly without being pulled from your grip). This way > you are not trying to fight the force of the breaker any more than necessary > to stay in the cockpit and hang onto the paddle. Lastly you hold your breath > until things quiet down and then find your paddle shaft with the other hand, > set up, and roll back up. I used this technique in 9 to 11 foot breaking surf at Makah Bay on the Washington coast. I can't say I planned it out, rather it "happened" to me. All of the sudden I'm under water with one hand on the paddle shaft, being tossed every direction but up. No sense in fighting it, just let your upper body whip around like a rag doll or as Matt put it, "a limp dishrag." It seems like forever the first time it happens. It's dark down there and the thrashing is incredible but then comes the light and the calm, you are at the surface. Time to get your other hand on the paddle shaft, slide one hand up to a blade to check the blade angle and adjust it for the roll. Roll up. Look around. That wave that just thrashed you has a big brother following right behind. :) One of the main reasons I like a kayak without a rudder is for the secure bracing against fixed footrests. The longer cockpit works for me as long as I have knee/thigh hooks and hip pads. My hip pads are also "hooked" (like in the photo's at www.kayakfit.com) and help me stay in the boat when the forces that be are trying to remove me. But I'm not trapped in the cockpit by my outfitting. If I want out I can relax the pressure against the footrests, twist my hips and push out. Rex Roberton *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/19/01 7:52:01 AM, teitelba_at_post.tau.ac.il writes: << Matt, do you know what specific model of Snapdragon neoprene spraydeck he was using? Sure seems like it did the job well! I'd really like to know because I'm getting a Romany and I love to surf, but I've had the worst luck with the skirts available here. If you don't know, please pass on his e-mail. Also, what is an implosion bar? >> Snap dragon makes a skirt for the Romany as a custom. I have one (all neo, reinforced, non-adjustable) and am happy that it is of the highest quality and has a good and tight, but not impossible-to-attach fit. Like most Romany skirts, it should have a side pull release strap but does not. I recommend that Romany paddlers practice releasing the skirt buy grabbing the material directly on one of the "flat" surfaces rather than just pulling on the release strap. An implosion bar is a device designed to support the skirt where it is most vunerable to excessive loading by wave action. They are not uncommon on high-end WW skirts. I'm surprised to here you've had problems with skirts for the Romany. I have found quite a range of skirts that work well, though the SnapDragon is by far my favorite. Good Luck, Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt, you must be off your medication again, so wrote [:-)] : Doug wrote: >>>>>>The ocean cockpit is far superior, bar none, when it comes to remaining firmly ensconced in your sea kayak -- well, for me anyway. It obviously decreases the chance for skirt implosion (all things being equal, which is always, however).<<<<<<<<< The following quote is from a long letter I wrote Doug way back in 1986. Same people same arguments, same lack of objective evidence, do opinions ever change?: inject>>> (I'll cc the list, for those perturbed enough to read along). Yes Matt, opinions _do_ change. I can give you dozens of mine that have been modified over the years, or at least have undergone subtle yet significant aggregate changes. I can also give you numerous examples of big-name paddlers and builders who have changed views over the last two decades (many due to marketplace shifts -- the love of money is the root of all evi...). I'm sure you have a few of your own too. But the issues under debate never do. Paddlers still argue about rudders, feathered vs unfeathered, certification, and yes -- cockpit size. Objective evidence? Yeah, if you have some "objective" research, fire it my way. But only if it is objective. Hard stuff to compile on issues of opinion, but I'm game to see it, refute it, or otherwise agree with it and step left to the middle ground with those so enlightened. One important note: My opening post was thus formulated to draw fire, and I see guns are ablazing with the usual Broze celerity. Too bad you're keeping the ammo box back channel; but you are correct, many might find the minutia a little too much. I was a little more proactive in my post than usual, having learned the hard way, and so added the "for me anyway". It's my back-up, and kind of nulls and voids my over-opinionation. I do humbly apologize however, as I see a typo error of some significance. I wrote: "(all things being equal, which is always, however)". That obviously s/b "all things being equal, which _isn't_ always, however). Large skirts necessitated by larger cockpits often have more give when it comes to implosion, than that of a taught-tight skirt that too easily peels off the side coaming on its smaller cockpit cousin. You can go to the PW stories, and read of a near serious incident I had way back on the west coast when my previous Nordkapp's skirt did just that at the most inopportune time (Murphy's law). Further, large skirts can be had with implosion bars, not to mention the fact that many of the aspects that render the debate a bit more mute, include such things as type of cockpit rim, rand style, heavy vs light gauge elastic perimeter cord, etc., etc. We haven't even gotten to the issue of paddler seating security yet. The out-of-context quote that you use above fails to remind readers that in my post, mention was made of the very important -- and more to the actual thread topic at the time -- issue of small cockpits giving security by placing leverage-in potential for the paddler by bringing the fore deck closer than a big cockpit would allow vs the larger cockpit leverage-in potential by providing thigh braces; and the very important objective fact that both achieve successful results depending on preferences, body physiology, etc., etc. Now where's _your_ objectivity Matt? Obviously though, I didn't flesh out the various aspects enough for some people. Now if you are saying that you don't need either security arrangements, I can't help you there. Sitting in a bare-boned boat with a large cockpit and no supportive outfitting or the immediacy of fore deck and/or thigh braces is not my version of seaworthy. Puddle-ready, yeah. Obviously this is more opinion. I do know my new-to-me van corners awesomely with my retrofitted suspension and high-performance tires, but the captain's chair has no lateral support, so I can't utilize the potential for performance driving. But I'm not going to add bucket seats all the same. I also draw a fair bit of criticism from fellow paddlers when I'm out and about on the west coast in an afternoon blow. "You's crazy boy", they say. I look at their outfitting and can see why they would say that. If I paddled the boats they were, not fitted-out, I could see why they wouldn't relate too well to the notion of performance paddling. But they are happy, sitting on the beach. And yes Matt, the odd paddler is out there in the rough, with a stock inadequate-in-my-opinion set-up, and they seem happy. And I'm happy sitting in my kayak too. If I'm happy paddling, that's all I really care about in the end, anyway. When I head out to Race Rocks during a big blow with contra-indicated tides, I do so with confidence (well, what I can muster). That is also very important, TO ME. I've rolled a few demo boats at the pool nights, some with large cockpits and little bracing potential. When you slip out sideways and fail to complete the roll, that leaves an impression. My old quote: "You say: "Obviously, all things being equal, a smaller cockpit permits the occupant a more secure seating arrangement and presents less chance for the spray skirt to implode." inject>> Matt, this must have had something to do with that incident off Cadboro Bay, no? Didn't you drag this up on PW a while back too? I think there _was_ some lack of objectivity here, however -- come to think of it. I was towing the party line for Derek B. at Pacific Canoe Base. After all, the Ocean Kayaking Association newsletter was a mouthpiece for his British boat operation. There, I said it. Are you happy now :-). But I think the paddler that came out of his boat was a fond supporter of the rival Ocean River Sports and Brian H. Works both ways, you know. But in reality, he srewed up, as we all do once and awhile (to different extents). Blaming boats and/or using and incident to foist your views is a pretty subjective line to take. You continued: When someone says: "Obviously", a red flag goes up in my head and I brace myself for the big assumption that I am going to be asked to swallow whole, without so much as a little evidence for lubrication. Since all things are not equal, and some of those things are so much more important than cockpit size, differences there are rendered meaningless." inject>> No, not meaningless Matt, just all part of the great equation. Saying that it "renders [it] meaningless" is an absolute statement Matt. You should know better, sir, with that educated, scientific mind. You did the same thing with your rant about spatial requirements and rolling. Absolute statements if I remember, with anecdotal highlighting from your own physiology -- yet you left out all those very fine Class V paddlers for whom "knowing which way is up" to coin a phrase, is part of their skill/experiece repertoire. But I digress, as is often the case with a rebuttle. . You closed: Those who give a damn about this issue and want to read a long letter about the research we did back then regarding cockpit size can e-mail me back channel and I'll send you the relevant parts and not put the rest of the Paddlewisers who don't care through another long detailed post of kayaking minutia. Matt Broze - http://www.marinerkayaks.com Matt, I've repeatedly said to this list I'm no expert, just hardcore within my respective pursuit of ocean kayaking. Why take me so seriously? No one else does. Having said that, I will leave you with something _I_ think is objective. Low volume kayaks running heavier loads with a heavier paddler in rough water (like true sea conditions) obviously fall under an appeal to an unspecified logic that a large cockpit just seams out of place. Conversly, a very high volume kayak relative to the above, appeals to the logic that cockpit size doesn't really matter. Of course, this could all simply be just myth -- another urban legend. Happy slaying. Anyway, please continue to question statements that might lack virtuosity; but please do so without omitting contextual connections, even if they are casuals ones or based on simple causerie. I know I find it difficult to find enlightenment when replies are eclipsed by a withdrawal to incomplete specifications about what was truly stated. That _is_ difficult to swallow, at least for me. I'll go back to bed and my migraine headach now. Love ya Matt :-) Respectfully, Doug Lloyd (hey, where's John Winters lately, pulling out stuff from his tickle box for our list?) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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