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From: Edwin Johnson <elj_at_shreve.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:54:37 -0600 (CST)
Interesting to hear your description, Jochen, of using the tarp. I went on
a canoe trip with a fellow some years ago and he did a similar thing by
turning the canoe on its side and stretching the tarp over the canoe and
then out to the side to make a low enclosure, also supported by a paddle.
We were camping on the sandy beaches of the Sabine River so the ground
was good for such an arrangement. We had a rather bad thunderstorm and he
weathered it fairly well.

...Edwin

>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:58:05 +0100
>From: "Jochen Grikschat" <grikschat_at_surfeu.de>

>Maybe iīm a little bit extreme, but most time I didnīt got a tent on my
>tours. Yeah! NO tent.
>
>Only using a 3 x 3 metre (about 10 x 10 ft) polyester, silicone coated
>Tarp.

...Edwin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~   Edwin Johnson ....... elj_at_shreve.net  ~
~~        http://www.shreve.net/~elj       ~
~~                                         ~
~~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~
~~ earth with your eyes turned skyward,    ~
~~ for there you have been, there you long ~
~~ to return." -- da Vinci                 ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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From: Mel Grindol <grindol_at_my-deja.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:45:21 -0800
[demime could not interpret encoding binary - treating as plain text]
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:58:05 +0100
>From: "Jochen Grikschat" <grikschat_at_surfeu.de>

>Maybe iīm a little bit extreme, but most time I didnīt got a tent on my
>tours. Yeah! NO tent.
>
>Only using a 3 x 3 metre (about 10 x 10 ft) polyester, silicone coated
>Tarp.

I'm not really against tarps but I will point out one big negative of just using a tarp.  When my wife and I spent a week on Ross Lake we shared campsites with a group of teenagers hiking the shoreline.  They used just a tarp for coverage while sleeping.  One of the guys had a spider crawl into his sleeping bag and bite him multiple times on the neck and cheek.  One whole side of his neck and one cheek was swollen, it looked ugly.  We offered him some cream made by my father-in-law (he's a pharmicist) that is a combination of quite a few creams that works excellently for unknown rashes.  Seems to have enough properties that no matter what caused the rash it can cure it.  He turned us down (acted down right frightened when she offered it).

At least with a tent you can do a concerted bug hunt once you are zipped in for the night and get rid of anything that wants to make a meal out of you.

Like Dave I've had extremely good luck with a NF Nebula.  It's lived through a few all night thunderstorms with heavy rain and wind (and lightning, the tent looks cool in the dark of night when a flash of lightning over head lights up the dome).

My Mountain Hardwear Light Wedge 2 has not been through a thunderstorm but has been through a night of strong wind.  Strategically placed with the tail of the tent facing into the wind the most we had was an occassional thrumming of the fly in the wind.

Don't forget to consider packed size.  My Nebula is large (25" X 8") and eats up a lot of space in the boat (Heck, I'm not sure it would even fit in my Romany without packing it in as each separate component).  It's been relegated to my BWCA trips where space in a canoe is not at a premium.  The Light Wedge 2 packs down to about 17" X 6".  Much better on boat space.

Mel


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From: Patrick Maun <pmaun_at_bitstream.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 00:39:49 -0600
Maybe someone has mentioned this before, but Marmot has a tent called 
the Area 51 that is basically a unique single-wall tent/tarp. It is 
huge (51 square feet) and weighs in at a little over 5lbs (2.26 
kilos). I have read good reviews and heard some from paddling 
friends.  I ordered one from www.rei-outlet.com using my coop 
dividend which conveniently arrived this week. They have them for 
US$139, which is quite a bargain. While there are a few little 
oddities (you have to guy it out), nothing that other very light 
tents don't have to deal with.

Tarps are a lovely thing, especially during those days of non-stop 
rain. I always have an EMS parawing somewhere in my hatch. But I 
wouldn't ever want to sleep under one during a Minnesota summer. The 
mosquitos or perhaps the blackflies would simply carry you off to 
feed their queen.

-Patrick (whose attempted kayaking fun today ended up being 3 hours 
of sitting in a car lodged in a snowbank)

At 11:54 PM -0600 2/24/01, Edwin Johnson wrote:
>Interesting to hear your description, Jochen, of using the tarp. I went on
>a canoe trip with a fellow some years ago and he did a similar thing by
>turning the canoe on its side and stretching the tarp over the canoe and
>then out to the side to make a low enclosure, also supported by a paddle.
>We were camping on the sandy beaches of the Sabine River so the ground
>was good for such an arrangement. We had a rather bad thunderstorm and he
>weathered it fairly well.
>
>...Edwin
>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:58:05 +0100
>>From: "Jochen Grikschat" <grikschat_at_surfeu.de>
>
>>Maybe iĨm a little bit extreme, but most time I didnĨt got a tent on my
>>tours. Yeah! NO tent.
>>
>>Only using a 3 x 3 metre (about 10 x 10 ft) polyester, silicone coated
>>Tarp.
>
>...Edwin
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:24:43 -0500
From: "Patrick Maun" <pmaun_at_bitstream.net>


> Maybe someone has mentioned this before, but Marmot has a tent called 
> the Area 51 that is basically a unique single-wall tent/tarp. It is 
> huge (51 square feet) and weighs in at a little over 5lbs (2.26 
> kilos). 

I saw one a couple of weeks ago for the first time.  It's an interesting design.
I kinda liked it - simple and functional.  In spite of its large floor area, it suffers 
from the same problem as most tents - it's too short for me!  It is barely longer 
than a full length Thermarest.  I wish they'd make these things bigger by making 
them longer rather than wider!

Mike

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From: Mike McNally <mmcnally3_at_PRODIGY.NET>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:11:30 -0600
Have you checked out the shape of the trango 2 by mtn hardware?  I think
it's the perfect shape.  Unfortunately it's expensive and heavy (do to 
it's design for storm endurance).  I believe a lighter tent could be 
rigged for storm durability with a little extra rope, as long as you're 
not looking for snow load capacity.  Soon there will be cheaper light
knockoffs of these nice tent.  

Check out this tarp that John Winter's previously directed my to:
	http://www.greenval.com/flys.html
I want one of the dryfleas, but I'm waiting for the price to come down.



On Mon 26 Feb 2001, Michael Daly wrote:

> ...longer rather than wider!
> 
> Mike
> 
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-- 

Mike McNally		mmcnally3_at_prodigy.net
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From: Will Jennings <will_at_bigwoodenradio.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:54:42 -0600
The Marmot Area 51, as well as other pyramid/cone shaped tarps are
well suited for particular environments. As with many single-walled
tents and bivy sack/tents, ventilation becomes problematic in humid,
buggy, low-altitude environs.  Some offer optional snap-in floors.

I like the parawing type tarps better for reasons of ventilation and
wind shedding characteristics.  In buggy areas and/or buggy seasons,
I'd much prefer to have a tent that can ventilate extremely well AND
cinch down in the event of an acute or chronic storm situation.
Given the roomy, high-venting, light and low bulk options available
in many tents, I'm just not sure what the allure is to the 'tarp only'
line of thought.  I usually bring a tarp anyway for cooking or
lounging shelter.

-wjj

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From: Patrick Maun <pmaun_at_bitstream.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:34:01 -0600
I've heard quite a bit about ventilation problems with single-wall 
tents. *Supposedly*, Marmot has this figured out slightly better than 
most as it is vented all the way around the bottom and has an 
integrated vestibule while the door is all mesh. There are also two 
top window/vents with these clever poles that you can prop them open 
with. I am curious to see how it performs. I was in the market for a 
light tent to "add to the collection" and with my rebate it was  only 
around US$80, so if it's utter crap, I didn't waste $300 on a 
bomb-proof mountaineering tent.

Of course I'll report back to Paddlewise with my findings, at least 
as soon as we have un-frozen ground here.  \


-Patrick

At 8:54 PM -0600 2/26/01, Will Jennings wrote:
>The Marmot Area 51, as well as other pyramid/cone shaped tarps are
>well suited for particular environments. As with many single-walled
>tents and bivy sack/tents, ventilation becomes problematic in humid,
>buggy, low-altitude environs.  Some offer optional snap-in floors.
>
>I like the parawing type tarps better for reasons of ventilation and
>wind shedding characteristics.  In buggy areas and/or buggy seasons,
>I'd much prefer to have a tent that can ventilate extremely well AND
>cinch down in the event of an acute or chronic storm situation.
>Given the roomy, high-venting, light and low bulk options available
>in many tents, I'm just not sure what the allure is to the 'tarp only'
>line of thought.  I usually bring a tarp anyway for cooking or
>lounging shelter.
>
>-wjj
>
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From: Andree Hurley <ahurley_at_viewit.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:40:51 -0500 (EST)
A few years ago I bought fabric from Seattle Fabrics and sewed
my own tarp. I also got a bivy sack from Outdoor Research and when I used
to lead the school trips around the San Juans and Barkely Sound this was a
great combination. You can set them up together or separately. I also have
a small two-person self standing tent from Walrus (the fly needs to be
staked) - the Rocket I think. 

I put re-enforcements in the tarp under the grommets at it will "do"
almost anything (low, high, stack with paddles or with out). It's really
fun!

Andree

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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:37:39 EST
In a message dated 01-02-27 10:46:21 EST, ahurley_at_viewit.com writes:

<< A few years ago I bought fabric from Seattle Fabrics and sewed
 my own tarp.  >>

Andree, what size and shape did you make it?  Did you opt for plain ol' 
square or attempt parawing style?  If the latter, do you have any "pattern" 
tips/dimensions/ cutting instructions you care to share?

Has anybody compared prices between Seattle Fabrics and Quest Outfitters?  
Quest isn't online yet, but their number is 800-359-6931 if anyone wants to 
order a catalog.

sandy kramer
miami
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From: Andree Hurley <ahurley_at_viewit.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:31:14 -0500 (EST)
Mine is a basic rectangle, it can go over a picnic table easily. It's
pretty
big, really, although I'd have to get it out and measure it to be
accurate. The fabric is heavier than most as I just went on the
recommendation of the sales person.

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 Gypsykayak_at_aol.com
wrote:

> In a message dated 01-02-27 10:46:21 EST, ahurley_at_viewit.com writes:
> 
> << A few years ago I bought fabric from Seattle Fabrics and sewed
>  my own tarp.  >>
> 
> Andree, what size and shape did you make it?  Did you opt for plain ol' 
> square or attempt parawing style?  If the latter, do you have any "pattern" 
> tips/dimensions/ cutting instructions you care to share?
> 
> Has anybody compared prices between Seattle Fabrics and Quest Outfitters?  
> Quest isn't online yet, but their number is 800-359-6931 if anyone wants to 
> order a catalog.
> 
> sandy kramer
> miami
> 

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From: <gpwecho_at_juno.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:31:43 -0600
I'm another "tarp folder".  I have a couple pop-up dome tents, a
large&tall and a smaller one, but find I use a tarp ( 10x12 foot) quite
often.   For summer camping here in bayou-land my priorities are 
...shade, ventilation, bugs, and rain.  Shortchange any one of these
considerations and you will NOT be a happy camper.  In fall, winter, and
spring the rain may be one's only concern.  From something stretched,
flat and airy, to something snugged, folded and pegged, the many designs
a tarp can take seem limited only by one's imagination.  To me the tarp
is the ultimate in versatility.  BTW a mosquito net takes care of the
bugs for sleeping.  

For a larger group I also have "The Monster"  ...it is a 22x40 foot tarp
which, once secured, takes on the look of a nomadic dwelling-camp.  Room
for everybody's tent UNDER that thing, gear storage, a kick fire, kitchen
cooking area, lounging area, and with room left over for  ...hacky-sack
anyone ?

...adieu  ...Peyton (Louisiana)

        
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From: Rick Sylvia <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferginc.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:46:39 -0500
snips

> for everybody's tent UNDER that thing, gear storage, a kick 
> fire, kitchen
> cooking area, 


Peyton, what's a "kick fire"?

Rick 


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From: Jochen Grikschat <grikschat_at_surfeu.de>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:21:47 +0100
Hi all "tarpers - tarp man and women"

> wouldn't ever want to sleep under one during a Minnesota summer. The 
> mosquitos or perhaps the blackflies would simply carry you off to 
> feed their queen.

Thatīs one reason why Iīm dreaming of an special bivouac sack, with
integrated mosquito net. Okay, thatīs already on the market, but the
price....
I like to do everything for myself, so I know what I got and if somethng
fails, it is easy to repair and on every fault I learn more about how to do
it next time better.
Okay, a bivy sack with very little dome over the head, looks like a dog
kennel, but itīs still outdoor.
The problems with spiders, Iīve had one time, when I was sleeping in the
high gras. Not the normal place for a touring kayaker. Normally I watch out
places where nothing will hurt, even the gras. Be with the nature in the
nature, with respect and a minimum of conspicuoucy (hope the correct word
for "not to be seen with direct point to the eyes").

In tents you also could get problems with spiders or ants. To find the
ideal place to rest for the night, it is a special science and game of
chance.

Have a good night, here in Europe and a nice afternoon in the states, and a
fresh morning down under and nearby...

Jochen Grikschat

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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:37:08 EST
In a message dated 01-02-27 15:45:06 EST, grikschat_at_surfeu.de writes:

<< Thatīs one reason why Iīm dreaming of an special bivouac sack, with
 integrated mosquito net. Okay, thatīs already on the market, but the
 price.... >>

Slumberjack has a Summer Bivy that gets rotten reviews because of the 24" 
height and being trapped in rainstorms without being able to sit upright.

However, I've used mine for several overnighters and it is absolutely lovely 
to lie and look up at the stars.  Another good thing is that you can reach 
for the rainfly without having to get out.....and then it really looks like a 
coffin.

Pricewise...it's pretty reasonable.  The regular bivy is about $80, but I 
think I paid about $60 for the summer bivy that has the all-mesh screen.

The weight is under 3 lbs. and it's a small pack.  At first I got fiberglass 
poles, but exchanged them for aluminum ones.  

sandy kramer who has more tents than kayaks, but it's getting close.. :)
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From: Andree Hurley <ahurley_at_viewit.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:59:20 -0500 (EST)
My Outdoor Research bivy is like that, has nice netting. I also just
bought the Hennessy Hammock, although it's probably not totally bug
proof...

Andree


> In a message dated 01-02-27 15:45:06 EST, grikschat_at_surfeu.de writes:
> 
> << Thatīs one reason why Iīm dreaming of an special bivouac sack, with
>  integrated mosquito net. Okay, thatīs already on the market, but the
>  price.... >>

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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 03:18:30 -0800
In order to bring two warring factions together may I suggest that in the
Northwest where it rains all the time (with out ever letting up) that
serious kayakers put up their tarp and then erect the tent out of the rain
underneath, keep it dry all night, and then fold it up dry again in the
morning if moving camp. I used to go backpacking using some nylon shelter
halves/ponchos I made some thirty years ago or more. I discovered I don't
like ponchos but have used them together as a tarp ever since. Actually, the
tarp halves were retired for backpacking once I was affluent enough to buy a
lightweight tent (Warmlight) and do not have to hide out deep inside a too
hot sleeping bag anymore to get away from the marauding mosquitoes. Once I
became a kayak camper and had the water floating all the weight and no more
hills to haul it up anymore, I could "heavy up" and swear off freeze dried
food and "either or" thinking and discovered "why not both" thinking. For
years I went on kayak trips where I was the only person who used a tarp over
my tent or inflatable bivy but a few years ago I went on a trip on the NW
Coast of Vancouver Island with two other very experienced kayak/campers and
discovered that both my paddling partners and I all did the same tarp/tent
thing and we had never kayak camped together before or discussed it prior to
setting up that first night. We knew we were compatible campers at that
moment.

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com


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From: Beverly M <beverly-m_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:19:53 -0800 (PST)
--- Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> wrote:
> May I suggest that in the
> Northwest where it rains all the time, that
> serious kayakers put up their tarp and then erect
> the tent out of the rain
> underneath, keep it dry all night, and then fold it
> up dry again in the
> morning if moving camp.

That's what I like to do. The tarp takes the UV
beating from the sun, protecting the tent. If the rain
isin't too bad the tent is nearly dry in the morning.
Once the tent is down, you have a dry place to sit for
breakfast. If you travel light, an ultra-light tarp
and a bivi sack work together much better than they do
separately. You don't need to be in the northwest to
like being warm and dry.


=====
Sincerly Bev

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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:46:01 EST
In a message dated 01-02-28 06:22:19 EST, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes:

<<  I was the only person who used a tarp over
 my tent or inflatable bivy but a few years ago I went on a trip on the NW
 Coast of Vancouver Island with two other very  >>

inflatable bivy????    do tell more, Matt.

sandy kramer
miami
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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:44:16 -0800
In the mid 80's Bea Dowd, my editor at Sea Kayaker magazine. Told me of a
guy who had been given an inflatable tent/air mattress/sleeping bag
combination for Christmas. On New Years eve he decided to try it out and set
it up on a relatives beach where he had gone for a party. After the party in
which he had gotten pretty smashed he went down to the beach and took off
his shoes and crawled in. At one point he was awakened by the sound of waves
and looked out to see that the waves were not too far away. However he
didn't feel like getting up and didn't think they would reach him. He went
back to sleep until at about dawn he was again awakened by the sound of very
waves. This time he found they were slapping against the side of his
shelter. He then noticed that he was floating. Further inspection revealed
why the waves were lapping against his tent, it had drifted up against a
snag and the snag held it in place so the waves lapped against it.  Worse
yet he looked around and discovered he "wasn't in Kansas anymore Toto". He
was in shallows near shore but he was disoriented because it wasn't any
shore that he recognized. He hand paddled himself to the nearby shore to
look around but although it was a clear day he had no idea where he was and
could not figure it out. He walked barefoot for about a mile until he came
to an occupied cabin. He called his relative from there and then finally
discovered that he had crossed to the other side and was some distance (I
believe) up the 1/2 mile wide inlet.
How I came to own one was because I wondered if this tent/air mattress might
also do double duty as  a survival raft as well as shelter for kayakers. I
called the intrepid sleeper and asked more about it. It had been purchased
in Seattle so I went down to take a look at it. Although it was billed as a
"Survivor III" it would be too complicated to inflate from the water but
they were being closed out so I bought one anyhow to try out as a bivy. It
was Conestoga wagon shaped with inflatable end tubes holding up the canopy
and had a lightweight sleeping bag zipped to an air mattress that was 9 or
10 inches thick. An inflatable pump worked to inflate it (someone inflating
it looked to be giving it old style push the chest in artificial
respiration). I really liked it. It was a very comfortable bed that could be
set up nearly anywhere, across logs, on rock outcroppings, or even floating
(although I never used it that way). Sometimes in the NW coastal world of
beach logs tumbled up into a salal thicket, finding space big enough to set
up a tent above high tide can be a real challenge. My Survivor III made this
easy. I used it on any paddling trips where I would be sleeping solo. I
liked it so much that I thought other kayakers might like them too. I began
selling them when we first got a retail store in Kirkland, WA in 1987.
Although reasonably priced (because they were being closed out) they were
unfortunately a hard item to sell, most folks were intrigued by it but just
didn't trust inflatable after being "let down" by  other air mattresses. We
probably sold less than 1/2 a dozen Survivor III's total. Funny thing was,
once I couldn't get them anymore almost everyone who had ever bought one
already stopped by wanting to buy more of them. Although I have used it many
times in Baja where nearly every plant is armed with sharp points, it never
was punctured (the heat-sealable urethane nylon fabric was like that in a
Thermarest(tm) pad). Unfortunately the heat sealable bonds in it  seemed to
be degraded by time and moisture and during a kayak trip to the NW end of
Vancouver Island in 1999 the "inflate by mouth" pump failed and after a week
or so of blowing it up by mouth it went from being a comfortable shelter to
like trying to sleep on a giant soft beach ball as all the internal baffles
that gave it its inflated shape came apart. I'll miss it. Anyone know where
I could get another one?

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gypsykayak_at_aol.com [mailto:Gypsykayak_at_aol.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 8:46 AM
> To: mkayaks_at_oz.net; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tents Vs. Tarps
>
>
> In a message dated 01-02-28 06:22:19 EST, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes:
>
> <<  I was the only person who used a tarp over
>  my tent or inflatable bivy but a few years ago I went on a trip on the NW
>  Coast of Vancouver Island with two other very  >>
>
> inflatable bivy????    do tell more, Matt.
>
> sandy kramer
> miami
>

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