hi folks, i'm wondering if anyone has experience with self-righting devices. the one i have seen advertised in sea kayaker and canoe&kayak is the "roll-aid" (www.roll-aid.com). i'm asking because i am wondering if it might be handy in my situation: i paddle a rec kayak with a huge cockpit, and can't get a neoprene skirt for it. (snapdragon won't make it....haven't asked whetstone yet....but the size of the cockpit >would< make it hard to get on and off). so rolling is iffy. i am working on self-rescues, getting up on the back deck, braces, and my hip snap, but that's another post--- so what do you all think? it's about $120---not cheap. i wonder if i should be practicing hip snaps with a kickboard from a not- quite-rolled-over position...??? thanks for yer thoughts, kcd kathleen comalli dillon~friend, mom, wife, musician, violinist, writer, ailurophile extraordinaire ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "We can do no great things; we can only do small things with great love."-Mother Teresa~~"I find a lot of people like chubby 67-year-old girls."-Beverly Sills~~"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it."-Abraham Lincoln~~"Prepare to be assimila-----OOOOOoooooo, jelly donuts!"-Homer of Borg~~"I am Boris of Borg. Moose and Squirrel are irrelevant."~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know about self-righting devices, but I have an Old Town Loon 138 with a big 18" x 55" cockpit and I have a skirt for it. Is your cockpit bigger than that? Also there are craftspeople at events like Canoecopia that could probably make a skirt for your kayak. -Bob Matter Hammond, IN ----------- "The earth does not belong to us, we belong to the earth." --Chief Seattle *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/13/01 3:08:43 AM, timbre_at_spiger.com writes: << i'm wondering if anyone has experience with self-righting devices. <snip> i'm asking because i am wondering if it might be handy in my situation: i paddle a rec kayak with a huge cockpit, and can't get a neoprene skirt for it. <snip> so rolling is iffy. i am working on self-rescues, getting up on the back deck, braces, and my hip snap, but that's another post--- >> Rolling with some kind of inflatable device is no easier than rolling with a paddle. Best, I think, to learn about all of your self-rescue options and practice them all often. I am a strong believer in the mastery of the roll as the key to truly effective bracing, so by all means continue to work to learn to roll. But remember that some people have paddled for years and years and never learned to roll and feel they don't need it. In their own minds these people enjoy the sport no less just because they haven't been seduced by the "Dark Side". So there is room for advocates on both sides of the discussion. << so what do you all think? it's about $120---not cheap. i wonder if i should be practicing hip snaps with a kickboard from a not- quite-rolled-over position...??? >> Hi. My name is Jed, and I'm a gear head. I buy, just to try, everything and anything that sparks my interest. I have a pile of crap that I'll never use again that is nearly as large as the pile of stuff I use all the time. I have never tried the "Roll-Aid", but I believe with all my heart that there are a more than a few better ways to spend $120. You can get the same functionality from a piece of rigid foam; first it will cost significantly less, you do not have to worry about punctures so you won't be asking how best to repair it, you won't start a thread about not being able to find the CO2 cartridges or having the unit blown away by the wind, etc, etc. Kathleen, you are a musician, correct? You know all of those "Learn to play music in 5 minutes" programs? Do you really believe that someone can inte rnalize and retain years or decades of musical training by spending 5 minutes with some video? Learning to handle a kayak artistically is no different from learning to play an instrument. At first we are all clumsy and looking for the "silver bullet" that will make us a virtuoso. But if we practice regularly and search for the essence of the instrument we will eventually find grace, efficiency and our own unique artistic sense. If you can perform a hip snap with a kickboard, then you can learn to roll. It may take time, but just keep working towards the goal. I have every confidence that you'll be helping newbie's with their questions before too long. Jed Certified non-expert in various aspects of life *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Rolling with some kind of inflatable device is no easier than rolling with a paddle." Jed, do you really think so? Inflate a paddlefloat sometime, go over, and come up the same side. No training required almost. It's too easy. Vastly simpler than the learning required to roll with a paddle. The only practical difficulty is that most of us won't be paddling with an inflated seal stomach on the deck, ready. Matt Broze has a description of this manoeuvre under the rescue float manual at http://www.marinerkayaks.com/, called the "float roll". This seems to be what the roll-aid is designed for. Why not consider it as well as the armoury of other self rescues? While I try to roll each time I paddle, I am completely sceptical about the idea that you can always roll up. Try paddling for 10 hours into the wind, then face a landing through 2 metre dumpers. Do you think you can always roll when you're tired, the water is cold, and you've just taken a surf pummelling? Sea kayaking stories are replete with instances of experienced paddlers whose bombproof roll doesn't happen when the crunch comes. I like the idea of backups for everything in sea kayaking, including the roll. That's why I park a paddlefloat on the deck on any significant trip. Maybe the roll-aid is better than a paddlefloat. You don't have to leave the cockpit to use it, and it can apparently be used as a paddlefloat as well, by oral inflation. We need some gear freak to get a roll-aid and give it a real testing, then report to Paddlewise. A self confessed equipment maniac...any volunteers Jed? Regards, Peter Treby 37º 42' S 145º 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:00 AM 2/14/01 +1100, Peter Treby wrote: >"Rolling with some kind of inflatable device is no easier than rolling with >a paddle." >Jed, do you really think so? Inflate a paddlefloat sometime, go over, and >come up the same side. No training required almost. It's too easy. Vastly >simpler than the learning required to roll with a paddle. The only practical >difficulty is that most of us won't be paddling with an inflated seal >stomach on the deck, ready. I thought about Jeds comment also and wondered why he would make it. I am also an advocate for using a paddle float for learning how to roll. The paddlefloat makes it very easy to come up while you're still developing your technique. It makes it much easier to roll, when your technique isn't perfect. Some might see that as a disadvantage because it allows one to pull down on the paddle more so than using the hip snap and having a good blade angle during the sweep. Perhaps Jeds comment holds more truth for someone that has good rolling technique. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:12 PM 2/12/01 -0800, timbre_at_spiger.com wrote: Here we go with another big guy/big gal issue: >in my situation: i paddle a rec kayak with a huge cockpit, and can't get a >neoprene skirt for it. (snapdragon won't make it....haven't asked >whetstone yet....but the size of the cockpit >would< make it hard to get on I have yet to buy a spray skirt that fits me without modification. An interim solution would be a nylon skirt, which beats nothing. Perception probably would have one, but it probably won't fit you -- but that's nothing a good local canvas shop can't cure. Failing that, one from one of the other big cockpit manufactuers, like maybe the Old Town Loon 138, might work or be adaptable. But on a cockpit as big as the America's, I wonder if you're going to have implosion problems with either nylon or neoprene. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The nice people (called them on the phone) at the kayakstore.com are making me a custom kevlar sprayskirt for my Silhouette for just over 100.00 US currency. They required a tracing of the cockpit opening and I sent them a photo because of peculiar issues with this boat (recessed coaming). "Robert J. Matter" wrote: > > I don't know about self-righting devices, but I have an Old Town Loon 138 with a big 18" x 55" cockpit and I have a skirt for it. Is your cockpit bigger than that? Also there are craftspeople at events like Canoecopia that could probably make a skirt for your kayak. -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com ©©©©© furniture from the workshop http://studiofurniture.com/diary ©©©©© life as a tourist, daily journal http://studiofurniture.com/paint ©©©©© paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 01-02-13 04:02:23 EST, rjmatter_at_PRODIGY.NET writes: << I have an Old Town Loon 138 with a big 18" x 55" cockpit and I have a skirt for it. Is your cockpit bigger than that? Also there are craftspeople at events like Canoecopia that could probably make a skirt for your kayak. >> And I paid ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS for a skirt for my Wilderness Systems Pamlico. This has a 7-foot cockpit and can be paddled solo or double. The skirt has three holes with lids to accomodate the different paddling positions. Worse than the price was the only available color: black! I haven't used it yet, but there's no way it could be put on solo, particularly while on the water. I have used the nifty little summer spray skirt, though. You pull and there's a plastic "bar" that forms an arch, thus making it much cooler. sandy kramer miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
kcd wrote: "i'm wondering if anyone has experience with self-righting devices. the one i have seen advertised in sea kayaker and canoe&kayak is the "roll-aid" (www.roll-aid.com)." I have no experience with a roll-aid, but you could practice the same action as described for using the roll-aid, with an inflated paddlefloat, if one is available. This is very straightforward, much easier than rolling, and might give you an idea if the roll-aid is worthwhile. The roll-aid website suggests practising with an air inflated roll-aid, to save on the cost of CO2 canisters. Be very interested to hear of experiences with the roll-aid. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
kcd wrote: "i'm wondering if anyone has experience with self-righting devices. the one i have seen advertised in sea kayaker and canoe&kayak is the "roll-aid" (www.roll-aid.com)." I have no experience with a roll-aid, but you could practice the same action as described for using the roll-aid, with an inflated paddlefloat, if one is available. This is very straightforward, much easier than rolling, and might give you an idea if the roll-aid is worthwhile. The roll-aid website suggests practising with an air inflated roll-aid, to save on the cost of CO2 canisters. Be very interested to hear of experiences with the roll-aid. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Treby <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> wrote: > ... > Be very interested to hear of experiences with the roll-aid. I have used the roll-aid "BackUp" device. While it is not without its faults (which I discuss below), I find it to be vastly superior to any wet-exit and reentry system. Of course it is not quite as good as an "unassisted" roll, since it requires the use of an additional piece of equipment which then needs to be stowed. But it does provide a good "back up" for a roll (allowing one to roll "back up"--get it?), and it is also useful for people who have not yet learned how to roll. As the manufacturer stresses, however, the device should not be used as an excuse not to learn how to roll. The Good: It is extremely simple to roll with the device. The last time I went out to practice rescues I had along a friend who does not know how to roll. The first time he tried the BackUp device he came right up, even though he did every thing wrong (weak hip snap, lifted his head first, etc.). The bag provides the flotation of several paddle floats, so it is like rolling up while hanging onto a dock. It is very easy to inflate -- just grab the handle and pull. The Bad: (1) When pulling the handle, the device inflates by means of a pin which is driven into the CO2 cartridge and then retracts, leaving a hole through which the compressed gas flows into the bag. Unfortunately the pin often becomes stuck in the cartridge and does not retract. The bag will still inflate (since the pin is hollow), but the inflation takes much longer to occur. If you are already out of breath from attempting a couple of rolls, it can be quite annoying to wait for the bag to inflate. On the positive side, you do not have to wait for the bag to inflate all of the way, since it has much more buoyancy than is required (if you have any technique at all). While the manufacturer claims that such pin extraction failures are rare, in my practice sessions I find that they occur about a third of the time. (2) Unless you make some modifications, it is extremely inconvenient to paddle with the bag once it is inflated. The inflated bag is very large --much larger than it needs to be (see comments above). This is not much of a problem if the bag is stored against the deck immediately behind you. Unfortunately, it comes with an attachment clip on the end of a very long tether. If you use it the way it comes from the manufacturer, the long tether means that it will drag in the water and blow around, sometimes creating noticeable drag on one side, sometimes interfering with your stroke. The solution is to re-tie the clip next to the bag (rather than on the end of the tether), and to install a d-ring (or alternative attachment point) on the rear deck just behind the coaming. You can then clip the bag against the deck, which keeps it out of the way. (Well, it is out of the way unless you do a lay-back roll--does anyone still do that? :-)) The other disadvantages are obvious--another piece of equipment to carry, loss of deck "real estate", etc. The Ugly: Because it is so easy to roll up with the device--even with poor form--it may cause some to become reliant on it, never developing a proper roll. The manufacturer wisely warns against this, but human nature being what it is, the device will provide some with yet another excuse not to learn how to roll. On balance, I strongly recommend carrying the device, unless you are sure that your roll will never fail, or unless you always paddle in benign conditions. While certainly not "fail safe", it does provide a useful addition to one's repertoire of rescue techniques. Finally, I should mention that some people use a solid paddle float as a roll aid. This may provide a good alternative to the BackUp. Paddle floats have less buoyancy, but the BackUp's size is overkill for most paddlers. There are some obvious advantages to a solid paddle float. The main disadvantage to a solid paddle float is that it typically takes up more space than the BackUp, which most of us would need to inflate only rarely (if ever). The BackUp is quite compact when tucked away in its cylinder. I hope this helps. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Although I manufacture an inflatable paddlefloat I would recommend using a flat foam block or board on the paddle blade when trying to learn to Eskimo roll. It skims better over the surface than a rounded inflatable so makes for much more realistic practice when learning to sweep the paddle around quickly. The inflatable float won't plane easily so bogs down on the sweep (even with only the top side inflated--which is better if you must use one--and have a double chambered float). A float roll (no paddle or exiting kayak) using a paddle float, a foam board, or a Back-up is much easier to learn than the Eskimo roll. I never had anyone I showed how (dozens and dozens of new paddlers if not over a 100) ever take more than two tries to succeed with it. As far as solo rescues go, in general, Eskimo rolling is by far the best, a Back-Up or other float that is ready to use--so you don't have to pop the spray deck--is next best, followed by a fixed outrigger rescue using a paddle float, and then a reenter and roll with or without a paddlefloat (the reenter and roll lacks as much stability for pumping, requires putting the head back underwater, as well as being harder to learn initially), next (or a tie) an unfixed paddlefloat rescue. Yes, there are exceptions to this order (and we've been around this block before). The Back-Up's main advantage over other floats is its compact size before use. Dan Hagen said all that I would have said about the Back-Up (and more) and in exquisite detail as well. Thanks Dan. There is a device called a Roll-Aid (I believe) advertised in European kayaking publications (that from the ad looks to have solid handles on it), anyone have experience with it? Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi John, Peter & everyone, I started to reply to Peter Question last night but in a rare lucid moment I decided to save the post for additional editing. To answer you question John: I too use paddle floats to teach rolling and I think they are great for that purpose as well as for some other obscure self rescue techniques ;-) My comment was "Rolling with some kind of inflatable device is no easier than rolling with a paddle." I was talking about using the inflatable device in lieu of a paddle not in addition to the paddle. I teach new students the hip-snap movement by putting a rigid foam paddle float in their hands and having them roll with that. I chose this approach because it is less forgiving of poor form. In other words you either use your hips or you swim. I suspect the same issues are true with the inflatable self-righting devices. Specifically one must perform a hipsnap to come up easily or else muscle their way up with their arms. I sometimes have students use inflatable paddle floats to work out the kinks in their normal rolls. We progress through lower and lower degrees of inflation until they can perform the roll with great technique and form with the uninflated float. I do believe that good form results in a nearly effortless roll, to that end I have found no other rescue technique or device that is less strenuous than a well performed roll. This has been my experience. I don't pretend to be an expert or even a long time paddler but in my own limited experience this is what I've found to be true. Your last comment "Perhaps Jeds comment holds more truth for someone that has good rolling technique.", may be the key here. Certainly we have all seen many, many people struggle with bad form and end up with a roll that could never be totaly relied upon. But there are a few out of a hundred, that can roll at will from any position and in any conditions. These are the people, for whom "rolling is no more difficult than rolling over in bed". These are the people that have effortless rolls and for whom the use of an inflatable righting device would be more difficult than to simply roll. Respectfully submitted, Jed In a message dated 2/14/01 3:52:41 PM, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: << I thought about Jeds comment also and wondered why he would make it. I am also an advocate for using a paddle float for learning how to roll. The paddlefloat makes it very easy to come up while you're still developing your technique. It makes it much easier to roll, when your technique isn't perfect. Some might see that as a disadvantage because it allows one to pull down on the paddle more so than using the hip snap and having a good blade angle during the sweep. Perhaps Jeds comment holds more truth for someone that has good rolling technique. >> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>My comment was "Rolling with some kind of inflatable device is no >easier than rolling with a paddle." I was talking about using the >inflatable device in lieu of a paddle not in addition to the paddle. I >teach new students the hip-snap movement by putting a >rigid foam paddle float in their hands and having them roll with >that. I chose this approach because it is less forgiving of poor >form. In other words you either use your hips or you swim. Why do you have them use the float instead of the paddle, if it's not easier? Easier setup/angle maintenance? >I sometimes have students use inflatable paddle floats to work out the >kinks in their normal rolls. We progress through lower and lower degrees of >inflation until they can perform the roll with great technique and form >with the uninflated float. I assume you're now talking about a paddle float ON a paddle... KeS _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Kevin Stevens <kevin_stevens_at_hotmail.com> wrote: > Why do you have them use the float instead of the paddle, if it's >not > easier? Easier setup/angle maintenance? > At least two reasons for this: --"The paddle ruins everything." Some people find the paddle distracting. I know at least one person who claims she learned to do a hand roll before a "normal" roll because of this. When I've tried to teach people to roll, I've seen most go from a decent hip-snap/knee-drive and layback when holding the side of the pool or my hands to none of either as soon as they got their hands on the paddle. Hopefully, enough float practice will let them groove their body action well enough to survive adding the paddle, and it gives them a nice taste of success. --"The paddle lets you cheat." Strong paddle technique lets you make rolls without much lower body action, but your roll will be weaker, and less likely to work outside of pool practice. Also, you will be even farther from learning a hand roll. I did once need my hand roll (flipped while surfing and stuck my paddle into the bottom--bye bye, paddle), and it failed, so I don't consider the hand roll to be just a stunt. I had trouble getting my skirt off, and would have been MUCH happier if I had made that roll. While I believe that sculling right up is considered one of the legitimate types of Greenland rolls, it doesn't work as well with most Euro paddles (or, at least, not for me). Mike Wagenbach Seattle Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:20 PDT