At 12:02 AM 3/9/01 -0800, alice wrote: >I don't know if gender enters into >this at all but it seems that giving me the suggestion to do things familiar >to me (swimming underwater etc.) then graduating to the more usual teaching >method was far less stressful and *doable* than insisting I fit into a >pattern that the instructor had determined was less stressful. i completely "got" what alice and natalie were writing about, and indeed i'm working on my re-entry and roll. actually panic doesn't enter into it too much----i would be glad to learn starting from being in the kayak---but i am drawn to practicing somersaulting into my cockpit (this is IN the pool, guys, for those of you who were snickering at the visual), so i'm doing that. my husband and i took BSK from a "master" sea kayaker . this guy paddles and rolls everything, sea kayaks, playboats, river stuff, surf-skis, canoes. he is supremely confident and supremely skilled. when we had a session on rescues with him in the pool, though, we learned that he's also supremely arrogant. and, perhaps more to his detriment, both impatient and rigid, rigid, rigid. he has a religion about how you "have" to do things; i am new so i am not belittling him, but i am also a professional violinist and teacher and i know that a "my way or the highway" attitude tends to be the mark of someone who is insecure, impatient, or both. in our t-rescues he insisted on "hands in front of the paddles! hands in front of the paddles!" for the rescuer. it's a good idea. but, well, duh, if the paddles are a. leashed, or b. attached to the fore or aft deck, maybe we could loosen up about that a little?? for that matter, both my husband and i have a significant "gut factor" that impedes this: the paddles don't lay straight across your lap and tend to slip out. i know a lot of people on this list have a similar factor and probably have worked out a good adaptive solution. it was hard for me when he told my husband, "well, we're going to have to focus on her for a while" (no one likes being discussed in the 3rd person....at least, i don't) " since she will need more help at rescues and self-rescues than you will". then when we DID focus on "her", a few times he said, "you <have> to do THAT, NOW. i wish you'd just quit fooling around and do it my way". uhhh, i knew his way wouldn't work for me, and i was trying to think of something that <would> work. so, i did it his way and i 1. hurt my hand and 2. capsized, several times. after the session i developed a variation on his way (this was flipping the rescuee's boat in a t-rescue) that works beautifully for me. DUHHHHHHHhhhhh. the worst moment was when i was learning a stirrup rescue and he said to me, "well, you aren't going to be able to do that.." this was about self-rescues. say WHUT? by the way, impatient, arrogant instructor-boy, i indeed CAN do that. i bet i could have that night, too, if i had been treated with more respect. this person, mind you, is very competent. he is regarded as sort of a minor god by the paddlestore we do business with (and with which we've been happy), and even by kayakers 50 miles north of there where we do pool practice. he is an excellent kayaker. but if you ask me he is a sucky instructor, and an excellent kayaker doth not an excellent instructor make. obviously i won't be working with him again. i am a perfectionist, i admit it, and i expect a lot of any instructor. i'm also exquisitely sensitive to criticism. hell, i'm just exquisitely sensitive, period, and i take responsibility for that too. but still, this was a really yucky encounter (that we paid significant $$$ for) and i felt bad for days about it. i cried a few times. in fact, i felt bad til i got in the pool next time and PROVED to myself i could indeed do the stuff he said i couldn't. i have appreciated getting info from you all, and have read a lot of books, so i had several alternatives in mind for each skill this guy taught us. HIS WAYS are NOT the ONLY WAYS! there is a book, "sea kayaking for women", that addresses some of the gender-specific issues. women, or THIS woman anyway, feels a fear of seeming incompetent. that is a guaranteed technique- and confidence-freezer. i believe women learn differently to men and that difference needs to be addressed. for instance, i like to hear instruction and then be left alone for a few minutes to visualise doing it. i also like to watch someone else do it once before i do it (any given maneuver). then i often can do it, if not perfectly, then well the first time. just a few thoughts, kcd kathleen comalli dillon~friend, mom, wife, musician, violinist, writer, ailurophile extraordinaire ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "We can do no great things; we can only do small things with great love."-Mother Teresa~~"I find a lot of people like chubby 67-year-old girls."-Beverly Sills~~"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it."-Abraham Lincoln~~"Prepare to be assimila-----OOOOOoooooo, jelly donuts!"-Homer of Borg~~"I am Boris of Borg. Moose and Squirrel are irrelevant."~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In attending many, many physical how to do it classes from CPR, thru' Aikido and Motorcycling to Kayaking and having instructed in the first three, I have observed that there are at least 3 types of learning/ learners. Some people learn well from the spoken/written word. Usually I think these have a very good imagination, and extrapolate from the written/spoken description a mental movie of themselves doing the act. Some learn well from watching the task done in front of them. Others learn physical things only by actually doing the task, sometimes with actual physical manipulation of the student to make their parts move thru' the right sequence of positions. I am a type who is not naturally athletic or graceful but through great mental effort and hours and hours of first slooooww, then medium, then normal speed moves can learn to perform with grace and economy of movement. It took me years to learn relatively subltle moves in Aikido, that some picked up very quickly. My experience tells me that some people who learn more slowly may understand and remember what they've learned better than some who are instant learners. (I like to tell myself that, anyway.) :-) One of the best indicators of the quality of instruction in a particular location is to look at the former students of the intructor(s). If the students are _good_ the instructors are probably _excellent_! Intructors who are rigid in their teaching technique are going to have failures as they won't be taking individual variations of learning abilities into consideration. Nothing is sadder than a closed mind, anywhere. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Flory, San Jose, CA. daflory_at_pacbell.net Go Sea Kayaking!! ©2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:34 PM 3/9/01 -0800, timbre_at_spiger.com wrote: >At 12:02 AM 3/9/01 -0800, alice wrote: >>I don't know if gender enters into >>this at all but it seems that giving me the suggestion to do things familiar >>to me (swimming underwater etc.) then graduating to the more usual teaching >>method was far less stressful and *doable* than insisting I fit into a >>pattern that the instructor had determined was less stressful. > > >i completely "got" what alice and natalie were writing about, and indeed >i'm working on my re-entry and roll. It sounds like you had bit of "experiences" with wet exits during your BSK class. Were those done with a spray skirt attached. Something else I've done when teaching people wet exits, is that if they're really anxious about it, I'll have them do a couple without a spray skirt on first. >my husband and i took BSK from a "master" sea kayaker . this guy paddles >and rolls everything, sea kayaks, playboats, river stuff, surf-skis, >canoes. Many wouldn't consider being able to roll all those boats a "master" skill. Once you learn the basic technique, going from one craft to another isn't that different. I've never tried to roll a canoe but I've rolled the rest on the list and wouldn't by any stretch of the imagination consider myself a master. >when we had a session on rescues with him in the pool, though, we learned >that he's also supremely arrogant. and, perhaps more to his detriment, >both impatient and rigid, rigid, rigid. he has a religion about how you >"have" to do things; Did he have any "credentials" other than his reputation? BCU and ACA trained coaches are often taught a specific way of performing various skills and often they can be fairly strict about doing it "the right way". Go over to rec.boats.paddle, a predominately whitewater kayaker group and when the topic of rolling comes up you'll often hear one phrase: "up is good". That is, a successful roll, even if it isn't pretty, is good. That doesn't mean that there are specific parts of a roll that when done "incorrectly" shouldn't be worked on. Pretty much anyone that has learned how to roll, can muscle up a whitewater kayak without much of a hipsnap but if you put all the pieces together it's almost effortless. >i am new so i am not belittling him, but i am also a >professional violinist and teacher and i know that a "my way or the >highway" attitude tends to be the mark of someone who is insecure, >impatient, or both. in our t-rescues he insisted on "hands in front of the >paddles! hands in front of the paddles!" for the rescuer. it's a good >idea. but, well, duh, if the paddles are a. leashed, or b. attached to the >fore or aft deck, maybe we could loosen up about that a little?? There are probably some good reasons for the details he was asking for and it might not be because he was insecure. He was likely trained the same way. I had the great fortune to take a rescues class with Nigel Dennis (of Nigel Dennis Kayaks) last summer and even though he's a high level BCU coach he was pretty loose in his instruction and taught a variety of techniques, a couple of which I had never seen before. One interesting variation on the t-rescue involved the swimmer assisting emptying the water out of their boat by going to the opposite side of the "t", placing your feet on the side of the rescuers boat, and leaning back. That pulls the bow across the boat, and eliminates the vulnerable position the rescuer can get in when trying to lift the bow up onto their boat to empty the cockpit. The swimmer then enters their boat by climbing across the rescuers boat. > for >that matter, both my husband and i have a significant "gut factor" that >impedes this: the paddles don't lay straight across your lap and tend to >slip out. i know a lot of people on this list have a similar factor and >probably have worked out a good adaptive solution. > >it was hard for me when he told my husband, "well, we're going to have to >focus on her for a while" (no one likes being discussed in the 3rd >person....at least, i don't) " since she will need more help at rescues >and self-rescues than you will". then when we DID focus on "her", a few >times he said, "you <have> to do THAT, NOW. i wish you'd just quit fooling >around and do it my way". uhhh, i knew his way wouldn't work for me, and >i was trying to think of something that <would> work. so, i did it his way >and i 1. hurt my hand and 2. capsized, several times. *lots* of people capsize during rescues. Be persistant, and keep practicing. > after the session i >developed a variation on his way (this was flipping the rescuee's boat in >a t-rescue) that works beautifully for me. DUHHHHHHHhhhhh. I first read that as flipping the rescuers boat and was going to write BTDT (as the rescuer). Only, it was a little more embarassing because I was trying to show someone how to do hip snap of the bow of someone elses boat. She grabbed onto the grab loop of my boat and before I finish explaining what to do next she capsized toward me. Unfortunately, she was ahead of the bow by a couple of feet and it pulled the bow sideways. I practically braced myself out of my cockpit to keep from going over but she didn't let go. She still hadn't let go of the grab loop when I tried rolling up so I eventually had to wet exit. I then thanked her for volunteering to demonstrate to the rest of the class an "all in rescue". >this person, mind you, is very competent. he is regarded as sort of a >minor god by the paddlestore we do business with (and with which we've been >happy), and even by kayakers 50 miles north of there where we do pool >practice. he is an excellent kayaker. > >but if you ask me he is a sucky instructor, and an excellent kayaker doth >not an excellent instructor make. True. That's why the BCU has different assessment tests for personal assessment (BCU 2/3/4 Star) and Coaching (Coach 1/2/3). > obviously i won't be working with him >again. i am a perfectionist, i admit it, and i expect a lot of any >instructor. i'm also exquisitely sensitive to criticism. hell, i'm just >exquisitely sensitive, period, and i take responsibility for that too. but >still, this was a really yucky encounter (that we paid significant $$$ for) >and i felt bad for days about it. It sounds like that instructor forgot the most important thing to take away from that class; to have fun. >there is a book, "sea kayaking for women", that addresses some of the >gender-specific issues. women, or THIS woman anyway, feels a fear of >seeming incompetent. that is a guaranteed technique- and >confidence-freezer. A couple of years ago at the LL Bean symosium I arrived early for a talk on a topic that I can't even remember and caught the last 10 minutes of a talk titled "Kayaking for Women, or how to pee in your kayak". It was very entertaining. >i believe women learn differently to men and that >difference needs to be addressed. for instance, i like to hear instruction >and then be left alone for a few minutes to visualise doing it. i also >like to watch someone else do it once before i do it (any given >maneuver). then i often can do it, if not perfectly, then well the first time. I don't think it's as much a gender issue (although I've often heard that it's much easier to teach women how to flycast than men) but the fact that people in general have their own preference it how they're taught something and a good instructor will be able to quickly tell which approach will work best for which student. It's not easy, but one has to be flexible in their instruction methods to accommodate all students. > >just a few thoughts, > Thanks for expressing them. One of the things I really like about this list is the value of the contributions by those that are not "master" kayaks. I think that it's important to always listen to that perspective. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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People learn differently. Some people can watch someone else do a stroke or manever one or two times and emulate it immediately. Some people need a detailed step-by-step instruction. Others need to understand the theory behind the stroke. A good instructor must be able to adapt themselves to these varying styles. A good instructor must also be able to take into account an individual's capabilities and help that individual adjust/modify techniques to fit there ability. One size does not fit all! John pointed out a good example of Nigel Dennis teaching varying rescue techniques. Nigel's approach was to provide people a variety of techniques to accomplish the ultimate goal of getting a capsized paddler back into their boat. One I found interesting was a scoop rescue oriented to people with limited upper body strenth. As a BCU coach my approach is to adapt to the student rather than have the student adapt to me. The fact that someone is an accomplished paddler does not mean they can coach well- and vice versa (an excellent example of the latter being the coaches professional golfers use). Here's an interesting example of a coach needed to adjust to a student. When I took my BCU Coach 2 assessement we invite people to come as students. They are promised they will learn sometime and have a good time (FUN). Three students were assigned to me for about one hour of training. We introduced outselves and discussed what they wanted to work on during my session. We proceeded to the launch area and low and behold one of the students had a sit on top kayak. Now I had paddled a sit on top a few times but never taught someone. Out focus during the session was forward strokes and turning. The techniques are bascially the same and my student(s) improved during the session. I have learned to be wary of instuctors who say "do it my way". sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:12 AM 3/10/01 -0800, SNStone wrote: >People learn differently. Some people can watch someone else do a stroke or >manever one or two times and emulate it immediately. Some people need a >detailed step-by-step instruction. Others need to understand the theory >behind the stroke. A good instructor must be able to adapt themselves to >these varying styles. > >A good instructor must also be able to take into account an individual's >capabilities and help that individual adjust/modify techniques to fit there >ability. One size does not fit all! John pointed out a good example of >Nigel Dennis teaching varying rescue techniques. Nigel's approach was to >provide people a variety of techniques to accomplish the ultimate goal of >getting a capsized paddler back into their boat. One I found interesting was >a scoop rescue oriented to people with limited upper body strenth. I found that interesting as well. I believe that he also mentioned that it would be a good rescue for someone that has dislocated a shoulder. >Here's an interesting example of a coach needed to adjust to a student. When >I took my BCU Coach 2 assessement we invite people to come as students. They >are promised they will learn sometime and have a good time (FUN). Three >students were assigned to me for about one hour of training. A friend of mine (Mike P.) also took that BCU Coach 2 assessment and had an interesting experience. One of his "students" was extremely talkative. Mike would try to explain something and she would interrupt and start talking about how she paddled and on and on. At one point he had to say, "Please, I am supposed to be the instructor here". He said that he had never enountered a situation like it before, and while one might want to blame the student for his failing the assessment, he learned a lesson about what it's like to deal with a "difficult" student. The lesson was that the instructor does not get to choose their students and one must learn how to teach easy students as well as difficult students. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of John Fereira Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 1:49 PM To: SNStone; timbre_at_spiger.com; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Cc: timbre_at_spiger.com; meG A ELDRIDGE Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] teaching styles and gender At 07:12 AM 3/10/01 -0800, SNStone wrote: >People learn differently. Some people can watch someone else do a stroke or >manever one or two times and emulate it immediately. Some people need a >detailed step-by-step instruction. Others need to understand the theory >behind the stroke. A good instructor must be able to adapt themselves to >these varying styles. > >A good instructor must also be able to take into account an individual's >capabilities and help that individual adjust/modify techniques to fit there >ability. One size does not fit all! John pointed out a good example of >Nigel Dennis teaching varying rescue techniques. Nigel's approach was to >provide people a variety of techniques to accomplish the ultimate goal of >getting a capsized paddler back into their boat. One I found interesting was >a scoop rescue oriented to people with limited upper body strenth. I found that interesting as well. I believe that he also mentioned that it would be a good rescue for someone that has dislocated a shoulder. >Here's an interesting example of a coach needed to adjust to a student. When >I took my BCU Coach 2 assessement we invite people to come as students. They >are promised they will learn sometime and have a good time (FUN). Three John Wrote: "The lesson was that the instructor does not get to choose their students and one must learn how to teach easy students as well as difficult students". This is very true. Another challenge the coach/instructor has is to ensure a "difficult" student does not monopolize the lesson and impact the FUN for the other students. This can be very tricky. I have personally experienced this in some training I have taken. I needed some help but the instructor would focus on someone else for so long I could not get any help. An instructor needs to be aware of time management with respect to how much time is being spent with a particular student. Of course this can also be impacted by the student/coach ratio. One thing to look for is a smile on the student's face (particularly when they are under water). sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, There are coming more and more Europeans on this list, so I just might ask a question on a European boat. I recently saw a Francesconi Esplora. Is there anybody here who has experience with this make? I am interested in all info. Greetings, Merijn ****************************** Merijn Wijnen Vinkenhofje 8 5613 CN Eindhoven The Netherlands Tel.: 040-2939991 (job: 040-2650539) Fax: same as tel., call before sending or try twice E-mail: Home: merijn_at_music.demon.nl Job: m.wijnen_at_ind.tno.nl Web-site: http://www.music.demon.nl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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