I find Matt's comments on the recent fatal incident thought provoking: >I have a slightly different take on this. I think it wouldn't have made much >difference what he was wearing. The paddlefloat being still folded and with >the kayak points to the conclusion that he lost his kayak as soon as he >bailed out but before he got started with that rescue. Once that kayak is >gone if he didn't have a way to summon outside help (or other boaters or >paddling partners in the area) and if he was far from shore (and that could >be a few yards if the wind or current was taking him the other way) no >amount of thermal protective clothing up to a full survival suit would have >been likely to save him (other than by extending his life for a few more >hours when someone just might happen to come upon him accidentally). Matt's above observation basically is that a dry suit here would have made no difference. No one can be sure of exactly what happened in a terrible incident like this, but one of the great benefits of a medium like paddlewise is that it introduces a diversity of philosophies and ideas, which hopefully make kayaking safer and more enjoyable. When reflecting on the analysis of this incident I was reminded of some of the general differences of safety philosophy the list has and which I am used to in the culture in which I paddle, and my thoughts drifted to more general equipment and safety dilemmas. What to carry? why? and particularly whether equipment which makes you feel safer may have exactly the opposite effect. For example, the sea water temperature here typically varies between something like 41 in Winter and 55 degrees F in summer. My impression is that many on this list would consider for this water use of a dry suit pretty much mandatory. However, in the culture of the sport I paddle in dry suits are almost never chosen, and amongst experienced sea kayakers wetsuits are not a common choice either, clothing being selected as a rule to be appropriate to paddling performance, not protection for a long swim. Typically fleece with a waterproof/windproof semi-dry/dry-cag shell might be worn. Madness? If you swim in this clothing you get wet. The water is cold, if you swim sooner or later you get wet and cold. Becoming dysfunctional because of cold is extremely dangerous. The lesson I take from this is not that I need more sophisticated clothing, but rather I am reminded that taking a long swim in cold water is so dangerous that it isn't an option. As Matt observes above, the above swim was unlikely to have a good outcome no matter the clothing. Similarly if I lose my boat, I am in serious trouble. To be in the unfortunate position of having to wet exit only to surface watching your boat blowing away faster than you can swim would indeed be terrible. Do I rush out and invest in a leash to make sure the boat is never going to be separated from me? , or am I reminded that should a wet exit be necessary it is imperative not to let go of the boat? Do Leashes, tethers, epirbs, strobes, paddlefloats etc make a safer paddler? Or quite the opposite, does making the informed choice NOT to carry these items make a safer paddler? I have been reflecting on this for pretty much the life of this list, and I believe the latter case. I wear a foam pfd and helmet on the river but choose neither of them at sea. I might decide to take only paddle, clothing and boat or I may have a boat full of kit down to a vhf and gps. When am I safer? Does the excess equipment make me an un-safe paddler? They used to burn Heretics. Flame away. Colin 57º19'N 2º10'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have a reliable roll, but I accept the possibility that one day I may fail the roll, come out, and see my Romany whipped away from me by the wind. For this reason I always carry my waterproof HX350S vhf in a secure pocket in my life jacket (which I always wear), and am always aware of where I am, so that if I find myself drifting boatless, I can call for help and give my approximate position. "Man overboard in yellow hat and yellow PFD in Bellingham Channel off Cypress Head", for example. ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin Calder <c.j.calder_at_abdn.ac.uk> Similarly if I lose my boat, I am in serious trouble. To be in the unfortunate position of having to wet exit only to surface watching your boat blowing away faster than you can swim would indeed be terrible... Do Leashes, tethers, epirbs, strobes, paddlefloats etc make a safer paddler? Or quite the opposite, does making the informed choice NOT to carry these items make a safer paddler? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>Do Leashes, tethers, epirbs, strobes, paddlefloats etc make a safer paddler? >>Or quite the opposite, does making the informed choice NOT to carry these >>items make a safer paddler? I have been reflecting on this for pretty much >>the life of this list, and I believe the latter case. I wear a foam pfd and >>helmet on the river but choose neither of them at sea. I might decide to >>take only paddle, clothing and boat or I may have a boat full of kit down to >>a vhf and gps. When am I safer? Does the excess equipment make me an un-safe >>paddler? If you want an automotive analogy to this situation, then look at ABS brakes. When they were first introduced on cars in the US, the number of fatal accidents went down. After a few years though, when the majority of drivers have incorporated this "saftey" advance into their driving style i.e. they assume they can ALWAYS stop safely, the number of fatals has increased. Interestingly, these drivers are now successfully avoiding the original hazard that caused them to brake and swerve but are then coming to grief on large, solid, immoveable object like trees on the side of the road-things that had not even registered as a safety hazard to the driver when everything was going well. The same is true for better roads, tyres, airbags etc-the added safety margin that these things provide is eroded (generally) by higher speed and reduced following distance etc. I can well imagine that kayakers as a group display a similar characteristic-do the old hands at this now go out in conditions that ten or fifteen years ago they wouldn't have considered safe, because they now have "good gear" ? If the answer is yes, then they can probably say goodbye to that newly aquired safety margin that the vhf, drysuit or whatever represents. Are you using the nice toys to enhance your paddling experience or to push the envelope a bit further ? Pete (who is new to this sea kayaking thing, so dont take my word for it) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Peter Croft" <peter_at_etsgroup.co.nz> > If you want an automotive analogy to this situation, then look at ABS > brakes. When they were first introduced on cars in the US, the number of > fatal accidents went down. > After a few years though, when the majority of drivers have incorporated > this "saftey" advance into their driving style i.e. they assume they can > ALWAYS stop safely, the number of fatals has increased. aka - the Volvo Syndrome. People prefer a constant level of risk, even if they don't know what that really means. > I can well imagine that kayakers as a group display a similar > characteristic-do the old hands at this now go out in conditions that ten > or fifteen years ago they wouldn't have considered safe, because they now > have "good gear" ? > If the answer is yes, then ... they are just as foolish as those drivers. I like the safety gear, not because it allows me to seek greater risk, but because it allows me to control risk in different situations. For example, the GoreTex dry suit allows me to paddle more comfortably in really cold weather. However, I won't paddle as far off shore in those conditions. A city day-paddle in the summer might include a 7 km paddle across a big bay. At this time of year, in the drysuit with water temps just above freezing, I go around the bay inside the breakwater, where the water is always calm and I could swim (or walk!) to the beach. Longer and less exciting, but a good workout in conditions that, without the drysuit, would mean walking rather than paddling. Most of the gear I carry is a backup, not a primary source of safety. Unfortunately, I think your point is very valid. Most participants are probably likely to take too much risk because of a naive expectation based on the presence of the gear. BTW, there is a form of superstition (you won't need it of you have it) that causes people to do this. Insurance salesmen tap into this a lot. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For anyone who hasn't already, check out: http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/target/index.html for information on such topics as: risk, target risk, homeostasis, risk homeostasis, "lulled into an illusion of safety", "brinkmanship", "personality, attitude & lifestyle", etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Croft" <peter_at_etsgroup.co.nz> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] kayaker death, equipment, safety Snip > If you want an automotive analogy to this situation, then look at ABS > brakes. When they were first introduced on cars in the US, the number of > fatal accidents went down. > After a few years though, when the majority of drivers have incorporated > this "saftey" advance into their driving style i.e. they assume they can > ALWAYS stop safely, the number of fatals has increased. Interestingly, these > drivers are now successfully avoiding the original hazard that caused them > to brake and swerve but are then coming to grief on large, solid, immoveable > object like trees on the side of the road-things that had not even > registered as a safety hazard to the driver when everything was going well. > The same is true for better roads, tyres, airbags etc-the added safety > margin that these things provide is eroded (generally) by higher speed and > reduced following distance etc. > Snip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I just want to add a couple of thoughts which went through my head when I read the various postings on this topic. Tethers: I use a person to boat tether. Upon immersion in cold water the cold shock -reason #1 to wear always your pfd- may disable ones ability to hold on to anything. This is already the good side, on the worst side a heart attack is also a possibility in such a situation. On a recent lecture on that topic the speaker pointed out that cold shock hits you, no matter if you wear jeans, wet suit, or dry suit, and not wearing a life jacket in this situation may save you suffering hypothermia since you drown instantly. If you survive the initial cold shock appropriate cold water clothing will buy you time, active time you can use for trying selfrescue, signalling etc., and passive time were it keeps you alive for additional time. But even with the best drysuit this time is still limited! VHF: Carrying a VHF radio can make a difference, but I wonder, given the already restricted range while sitting in your kayak how far the call travels when you are in the water and the antenna is barely a foot above surface? However, still a valuable option! Signals: Definitely something everybody should carry. The problem is that storage in the pfd pockets is somewhat limited. Radio, flares, compass, mirror, flashlight..... Anybody found a smart solution? Just a couple of rather unsorted thoughts directly from the brain to the keyboard Take care out there and enjoy spring -more snow falling in the Maritimes right now, last year this time a number of plants were already blooming. Cheers Ulli *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Funny idea: > The problem > is that storage in the pfd pockets is somewhat limited. Radio, > flares, compass, mirror, flashlight..... Anybody found a smart > solution? Use a rucksack. Gregory got some really good ones ... No, without smiling. I was thinking of an small rucksack-option. Once I attached a little bag on the backside of my rescuing west (no pfd, but hand-activated inflating). There is enough place, I carry a throw line and afterwrds a waterbag. I´m thinking on a option for VHF (roped so you can get it fast), or a praddle (ian proctor single hand paddle), or some other equipment. It have to be fixed high, nearby the shoulders, you must be able to get it fast but it also have to fixed strong. Not easy, but I´m thinking about and someday ... I will tell you that day I got the solution. But what I´ve realised is a sprayskirt with a integrated bag in the front area. I sew a 2nd peace of stuff and close it with velcro, there I place some knife or cell phone. Zoelzer make some sprayskirts with a waterproof zipper, quite expensive but you could store there almost everything. Yes, the sprayskirt is a place with no other use than to provide you from getting a sunburn or windy/wet legs. just some thoughts bye Jochen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze: ... no amount of thermal protective clothing up to a full survival suit would have been likely to save him (other than by extending his life for a few more hours when someone just might happen to come upon him accidentally). Colin Calder: Matt's above observation basically is that a dry suit here would have made no difference. Ralph Hoehn: No flame from this end, Colin, just a comment to add to the heresy: In this specific incident (assuming that the paddler had indeed lost his boat), had he been wearing a dry suit and neoprene hood AND had he been carrying fins ON HIS PERSON (no big deal strapped to the back of the PFD after all and easily deployed in my experience), he might have been able to strike out for land. Yes, yes, yes, there are a dozen other things he might have done right first and before ever lumbering himself with fins, which other people have argued to be worse than useless to a paddler except in rare and special circumstances ... how about this: Tether: Let's assume that he had been tethered (against some correspondent's better judgement :-) and the situation was such that he already had to cut his tether to the kayak in order to be able to exit and surface at all. So, let's assume that the boat was lost to him, as might well have happened in this case anyway. Signals: Carrying flares, smoke, strobes et al would still only have left him helplessly waiting for outside aid. Fins might have given him a fighting chance of reaching land somewhere (anywhere!!) under his own steam if he was dressed sufficiently to survive the cold for the length of time it took him to get there. I have a personal aversion towards relying on others to bale me out of my problems (though I gratefully accpet any offers of help any time ... depending of what they cost me, of course), so carrying emergency signals is preceded by a whole list of higher priority emergency provisions and reactions, from training / practice through various unassisted fall-back scenarios and the related equipment. Just a thought ... Best regards, Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Colin Calder wrote: > Do Leashes, tethers, epirbs, strobes, paddlefloats etc make a safer paddler? > Or quite the opposite, does making the informed choice NOT to carry these > items make a safer paddler? I have been reflecting on this for pretty much > the life of this list, and I believe the latter case. I wear a foam pfd and > helmet on the river but choose neither of them at sea. I might decide to > take only paddle, clothing and boat or I may have a boat full of kit down to > a vhf and gps. > When am I safer? Does the excess equipment make me an un-safe paddler? Colin is leading us to the swamp of self-examination, via the thickets of risk adjustment, and under the portals of justification. I have a simple answer: I am safer when I know what I am doing, and less-safe when I do not. Equipment is only the medium through which we adjust our accommodation to a level of risk acceptable to our own selves. Embellish at will. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Interesseting point! > Do Leashes, tethers, epirbs, strobes, paddlefloats etc make a safer paddler? > Or quite the opposite, does making the informed choice NOT to carry these > items make a safer paddler? Thats a question I ask myself several times. If you are a self-consciousness type of man, you paddle as safe with all the equipment, as with nothing of it. But you could be the best paddler on earth, it might come up the day everything went wrong. Then it is better you got something of the heavy equipment. On the other hand what´s going on if you are not so self-consciousness? The all-time thinking on what-might-happen type of man, will get in trouble by his/her forst chance without the safety equipment and would still keep alive with the equipment. This is a point everybody has to check out for himself7herself. That´s what I´m praying, you could paddle in the best group of all, in last consequence you will be responsible for your live. Nobody else. And with Paddlewise you could check out, all different kinds of material, choices a.s. That´s what a would whish for our own head seakayak-organisation, but the "headquarters" like to discuss more "sensitive" topics what won´t help anybody at all.... Okay, 10 minutes to go and I might be the new owner of almost unused Globalstar phone. Keep fingers crossed... bye Jochen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:45 PM 4/2/01 +0100, Colin Calder wrote: <snip> >For example, the sea water temperature here typically varies between >something like 41 in Winter and 55 degrees F in summer. My impression is >that many on this list would consider for this water use of a dry suit >pretty much mandatory. However, in the culture of the sport I paddle in dry >suits are almost never chosen, and amongst experienced sea kayakers wetsuits >are not a common choice either, clothing being selected as a rule to be >appropriate to paddling performance, not protection for a long swim. >Typically fleece with a waterproof/windproof semi-dry/dry-cag shell might be >worn. Madness? If you swim in this clothing you get wet. The water is cold, >if you swim sooner or later you get wet and cold. Becoming dysfunctional >because of cold is extremely dangerous. The lesson I take from this is not >that I need more sophisticated clothing, but rather I am reminded that >taking a long swim in cold water is so dangerous that it isn't an option. As >Matt observes above, the above swim was unlikely to have a good outcome no >matter the clothing. I have to admit that I'm a little leery of dry suits, anyway. When they work, they're fine, but when they don't, they're worse than useless. If they leak, or are torn, they'll fill with water, and immediately lose their thermal protection -- plus, full of water, are more difficult to maneuver in, such as in a re-entry. There's no backup behind them if they fail. A lot of people seem to think that a dry suit is the be all and end all of thermal protection, but I can think of a couple of recent incidents in which a flooded dry suit added to tragedy. >Do Leashes, tethers, epirbs, strobes, paddlefloats etc make a safer paddler? >Or quite the opposite, does making the informed choice NOT to carry these >items make a safer paddler? I have been reflecting on this for pretty much >the life of this list, and I believe the latter case. I wear a foam pfd and >helmet on the river but choose neither of them at sea. I might decide to >take only paddle, clothing and boat or I may have a boat full of kit down to >a vhf and gps. When am I safer? Does the excess equipment make me an un-safe >paddler? > >They used to burn Heretics. Flame away. No flames from me. In fact, your rant sits rather well with me. All the safety gear in the world does not necessarily a safer paddler make. However, there needs to be a reasoned assessment of the risks involved in any given paddle, rather than just going through the drill by rote. I can think of a lot of safety gear that would be wisely carried in one situation, but useless dead weight in another. Fr'instance: In 95% of my paddling, a VHF radio is useless dead weight. I'm paddling inland lakes, where no one monitors VHF. For someone else, paddling, say in a busy harbor area, a VHF is nearly a necessity. But because it's a good idea for him, is it a good idea for me? Obviously not. Yet, a lot of the babble about safety gear contains similar caveats, what is good for one must be good for all. The amount of thermal protection or safety gear to carry is a subtle balance, and there’s no easy, absolutely right answer for any given condition. There are people that will tell you need the same level of thermal protection and safety gear for surfing 30-foot waves in 40 degree water at Agawa Bay in November that you would have for paddling on an 80-degree farm pond in August. That’s obviously not right. A number of factors need to be taken into consideration, including but not limited to: boat stability, water temperature, location, sea conditions, air temperature, humidity, experience, in a group or solo, and what you intend to do. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<snip> Do Leashes, tethers, epirbs, strobes, paddlefloats etc make a safer paddler? Or quite the opposite, does making the informed choice NOT to carry these items make a safer paddler? I have been reflecting on this for pretty much the life of this list, and I believe the latter case. I wear a foam pfd and helmet on the river but choose neither of them at sea. I might decide to take only paddle, clothing and boat or I may have a boat full of kit down to a vhf and gps. When am I safer? Does the excess equipment make me an un-safe paddler? They used to burn Heretics. Flame away. Colin, no flames here, just some smoke and mirrors - well, at least a signal mirror (CD in a pinch) and a good marine grade canister smoke flare ::-) You know, its funny. I'm just finishing up my initial manuscript regarding a kayak kite sailor who died during a crossing. The coroner felt the paddler should have been in more appropriate immersion apparel, should have had a VHF, perhaps a tether and a tethered knife, proper kayak foot wear as opposed to the bloody big Wellies he was wearing, and more flares (not sure if he had any). The paddler also had no roll or self rescue technique. The paddler could have also stayed at home. What was the official recommendation. He couldn't make one. He gave me "the file". Too many questions, too many differing versions of what is safe. Obviously paddling alone, with a kite, during squally conditions was not a good idea. Yet, all who knew the dead paddler considered him safe. He still went into the cold drink, he still died. I have all kinds of gear, training, back-ups, skill, stamina, etc, and also wound up in the drink once (well, a few times, but one serious incident for sure). Stuff happens. The real question is, what is safe? On one end of the spectrum you have a paddler who has no idea of the real dangers, and on the other, is the overconfident paddler who figures they are superior to the risks. Both these individuals are unsafe in my opinion. I do know that if one is going to take extreme risks, one must take extreme safety. Gear can be part of that maxim. I have no problem with paddlers who minimize their gear. An experienced paddler, heading out solo in cold water, with minimal protection (heck, wear all cotton if you want) is a choice the individual makes. You once told this list you have had a few mini-dramas, but usually you make it home, simply with a cold ars (UK for ass). I can see why ::-) By the way, they used to burn heretics for political reasons. Just a reminder that on this side of the pond, it is politically incorrect these days to recommend your specific regional UK approach immersion apparel - or lack thereof. Now, let me see where I put that kindling... Respectfully, Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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