Had a little conversation with George Gronseth today. One of the benefits of teaching for him is that I get to ask as many questions about kayaking as I want. I have to admit some lack of education on proper paddle sizing as far as euro-style paddles are concerned. I always use a Greenland stick, because they are so much fun compared to white-man's paddles. Anyhow, what I learned from George makes a lot of sense to me at least, though undoubtedly many on this list will think it heresy. :) #1 Only the paddle shaft length is important, not the overall length of the shaft plus blades. #2 The proper shaft length does not depend on the size of the paddler at all, but rather on the size of the kayak being paddled. The reasons for this has to do with the catch phase of the stroke. Too short a paddle will cause the side of the kayak to interfere with the catch. This will cause the stroke to initiate with some fraction of power wasted because the catch starts further back. Unfortunately, the initial catch is where the majority of the paddle stroke power is generated. Thus a lot of power is wasted if the paddle shaft is too short. I experienced this when I paddled with a 200cm whitewater paddle some time back. The blade would bump into the deck, severely limiting the most useful part of my stroke. Blade size does not matter, because as Matt Broze said earlier, water is a heavy fluid and even most small blades hardly slip through the water. Paddler size does not matter much... not when compared to kayak beam and deck height. These factors dominate over paddler size, because they dictate how long the paddle shaft should be. According to George, the best way to determine proper paddle shaft length is trial and error. Try several different paddle shaft lengths, and determine which one gives you just enough clearance over your deck. Once clearance is achieved, any extra length is only a disadvantage because of the slower stroke cadence (and other reasons). None of this applies to a Greenland style paddle, because that is a totally different animal. One other bit of George wisdom, which is one of the first things he teaches in his classes... Feather angle does not matter at all. Just pick one, and stick with it. Cheers, Kevin ps. George has a relatively new website... www.kayakacademy.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org http://www.yourplanetearth.org voice: (206) 788-0281 fax: (206) 788-0284 ----------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:55 PM -0700 5/9/01, Kevin Whilden wrote: >I always use a Greenland stick, because >they are so much fun compared to white-man's paddles. It is the person that has fun, not the paddle. Don't blame the paddle if you can't have as much fun with it. :-) -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've paddled both Greenland and Euro and find both can be as "fun" as you wish to make them. I started paddling with the "TOKSOOK" (Derek H's design) a couple of years ago. I find it to be great compromise between a standard Greenland Stick and a Euro blade offering many of the benefits each has to offer. Though a bit heavier it is VERY durable. Ken -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Nick Schade Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 9:11 AM To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] paddle sizing heresy - fun At 10:55 PM -0700 5/9/01, Kevin Whilden wrote: >I always use a Greenland stick, because >they are so much fun compared to white-man's paddles. It is the person that has fun, not the paddle. Don't blame the paddle if you can't have as much fun with it. :-) -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> > Blade size does not matter, because as Matt Broze said earlier, water is a > heavy fluid and even most small blades hardly slip through the water. It's too bad that John Winters isn't around these days, cause I'm sure he'd have some interesting comments on this. I've spoken to him a couple of times about paddle design (last time exactly a year ago this coming weekend) and he's pointed out that this notion that the blades "hardly slip" is a misconception. It's interesting that avid paddlers feel that the paddle blades don't slip. I've watched many canoe and kayak paddle strokes trying to understand exactly what's going on. They slip a lot! Paddle with part of the blade above water and watch how far the vortex travels from the blade while it's in the water (don't confuse it with the persistence of the vortex after the stroke is over). That's paddle motion. The problem is that you have a hard time separating the relative motions of the paddle compared to the kayak, you compared to the water and the paddle compared to the water. All other things being equal, I'd not discount the significance of blade size. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I also take exception to the idea that paddles don't slip. It is physically impossible to propel the boat forward without pushing something backwards. Newton pointed out that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, Momentum is conserved. For the math enabled, momentum is mass times velocity. All that you can change is the mass of water you push and the velocity you push it. But you must make it move or "slip". A smaller blade will push less water so in order to impart the same momentum to the kayak, it must move the water faster. This is slip. It is unavoidable. The smaller the mass of the water you push, the faster you will have to push it to get the same speed in your kayak. The energy imparted to the water is equal to the mass of the water times the velocity of the water squared. Because the velocity term is squared, increasing the velocity of the water increases the energy imparted into the water much faster than increasing the mass moved. Any energy you impart to the water is energy you could have used to make the boat go faster. It is wasted. Everything else being equal, smaller paddle blades are less efficient than larger blades. There are ways to make a blade push more mass with less increase in velocity which depend on technique. For example angling the blade so water is shed of only one side and making sure the blade is fully submerged before adding power. One clue that a blade is less efficient is, when using the same basic technique, the less efficient blade will require a higher cadence to produce the same boat speed. However a faster cadence can be more efficient if it helps increase the mass of water pushed and the velocity that you push it. A longer stroke will give the water more time to accelerate and thus increasing the kinetic energy of the water (wasted). By using relatively short strokes the blade spends more time in water that is not moving (slipping) as much so more water is moved more slowly. Yesterday I was in a kayak shop where the salesman was saying that smaller blades are like a lower gear. This is not correct, they are like a slippery gear of a bike chain which jumps. I don't think this is an advantage. While smaller blades will feel easier, they are just less efficient. If you want a lower gear, you should keep the blade size the same and shorten the shaft. Because longer shafts also tend to produce longer strokes they can also make the paddling less efficient, by imparting more velocity to the water. This disadvantage can be overcome with technique. Unfortunately, most people accept the idea that smaller blades are like a lower gear and are also convinced by salesmen that they need a relatively long paddle for some reason. So, the end up with tiny blades stuck on the end of long shafts. That is just silly. It provides all the disadvantages, with none of the advantages of a well designed paddle. On a related subject. The drag your paddle experiences in the wind is proportional to the velocity of the wind squared. While it is true that we may spend 1/4 of our time paddling into the wind, that time is the hardest. If you are paddling at 5 mph in a 15 mph wind the apparent wind going up wind is 20 mph and down wind it is 10 mph. And since your paddle is actually going approximately twice the speed as your boat, the apparent wind on your paddle is 25 mph upwind, 5 mph down. In other words the wind drag on your paddle will be 25 times as much while going up wind as the saile force it gets going down wind and 2.78 times the force on the paddle from a the same side wind. Feathering paddles is not a crock. It makes a big difference and it makes the difference where it is most useful... when you are going upwind. I am sure many of you have noticed that a wind never seems as severe when you are paddling with it as when you paddle directly into it. There is a sound physical reason for that feeling and that is what a feathered paddle is built for. Nick >From: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> > > >> Blade size does not matter, because as Matt Broze said earlier, water is a >> heavy fluid and even most small blades hardly slip through the water. > >It's too bad that John Winters isn't around these days, cause I'm >sure he'd have >some interesting comments on this. I've spoken to him a couple of times about >paddle design (last time exactly a year ago this coming weekend) and he's >pointed out that this notion that the blades "hardly slip" is a misconception. > >It's interesting that avid paddlers feel that the paddle blades >don't slip. I've watched >many canoe and kayak paddle strokes trying to understand exactly >what's going on. >They slip a lot! Paddle with part of the blade above water and >watch how far the >vortex travels from the blade while it's in the water (don't confuse >it with the persistence >of the vortex after the stroke is over). That's paddle motion. The >problem is that >you have a hard time separating the relative motions of the paddle compared to >the kayak, you compared to the water and the paddle compared to the water. > >All other things being equal, I'd not discount the significance of blade size. > >Mike -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Michael Daly wrote: > From: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> > > > Blade size does not matter, because as Matt Broze said earlier, water is a > > heavy fluid and even most small blades hardly slip through the water. > > <It's too bad that John Winters isn't around these days, cause I'm sure he'd have > some interesting comments on this. I've spoken to him a couple of times about > paddle design (last time exactly a year ago this coming weekend) and he's > pointed out that this notion that the blades "hardly slip" is a misconception. > > It's interesting that avid paddlers feel that the paddle blades don't slip. I've watched > many canoe and kayak paddle strokes trying to understand exactly what's going on. > They slip a lot! Paddle with part of the blade above water and watch how far the > vortex travels from the blade while it's in the water (don't confuse it with the persistence > of the vortex after the stroke is over). That's paddle motion. The problem is that > you have a hard time separating the relative motions of the paddle compared to > the kayak, you compared to the water and the paddle compared to the water. > > All other things being equal, I'd not discount the significance of blade size.> --------------------- ---So, what makes a paddle design efficient, so that you feel it "sticking?" I paddle with a Greenland-style paddle (3 and 7/8" blade width, 220 or 230 long) and feel I can make it stick. Also, I'm not left in the wake of Euro-paddlers at speed. Why don't those fat, short blades rocket folks along? Why does a symmetrical, skinny blade, convex on both surfaces, seem to provide very equivalent performance in moving the boat around to those high-tech, spooned and asymmetrical fat blades? Thanks - Dennis in St. Paul > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, I have read some interesting thoughts in the paddle sizing discussion, but there are two subjects I really miss. One is the difference between force and power. The other is the difference between force and efficiency. As a touring paddler I am not interested in how much force the paddle can deleiver in the water, I am interested in the optimum efficiency (in terms of power in - power out) of the entire boat- paddler-paddle system. To focus on the paddle: A paddle does slip in the water. If you do a very simple approximation on a normal paddle (not a wing paddle) then some typical values for a Blade size: 0.15 x 0.3 m (6" x 12") are: Force Slip speed (paddle with respect to the water) 5 N 0.3 m/sec 50 N 1 m/sec 500 N 3 m/sec The values are calculated using momentum theory. Compared with the speed of the kayak up to 3.5 m/sec (7 knots) the slip of paddles is significant. In a first approximation slip is proportional to the square root of blade area (again, not for wing paddles). The question is: does this slip influence the efficiency of the paddle? Actually, I do not think that this is necessarily the case. A larger paddle wil have a bigger wake, but probably with a somewhat lower energy density. So effincy will probaly not differ wildly. The slip of the paddle, however, does directly influence the efficiency of the paddler-paddle combination. From the viewpoint of biomechanics, muscles can deliver an maximum amount of power for a given contraction speed. A different (higher) contraction speed has the muscles operate at maximum efficiency. The optimum contraction speed for both settings depend heavily on the person. A very well trained sporter usually operates at hihger contraction speed. This can be seen easily for cyclists, as they have finely adjestable gearing. A touring cyclist uses lower contraction speeds (lower RPM) than a profesional cyclist. And during sprints (=maximum power) professional cyclist tend to use a lower RPM than on long distances (=maximum efficiency). In chosing the right paddle size (that is blade area and length) you can match the gearing you use to the kind of paddling you do. Large blade, long paddle= high gearing. Examples: Slow boat: smaller gearing to keep your muscles at speed Sprint: use larger gearing Another way to adjust your gearing is to change your forfard stroke. A wide sweeping stroke has a higher blade speed than a high angle racing stroke. I think the best way to achieve an efficient stroke is to chose a paddle you like, stick with it and learn to adapt your stroke to the paddle, the boat, the conditions and your own condition. The major difference between paddles is not just blade size or length, it is handling. For example: I like a long narrow blade because it is easy to control blade angle, and ( for the paddles I have tried) they tend to flutter less than wide blades. But this is, of course is a very personal opinion, only valid for myself. Just for what it is worth, greetings, Merijn ****************************** Merijn Wijnen Vinkenhofje 8 5613 CN Eindhoven The Netherlands Tel.: 040-2939991 (job: 040-2650539) Fax: same as tel., call before sending or try twice E-mail: Home: merijn_at_music.demon.nl Job: m.wijnen_at_ind.tno.nl Web-site: http://www.music.demon.nl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
merijn wijnen writes: > > The major difference between paddles is not just blade size or > length, it is handling. For example: I like a long narrow blade > because it is easy to control blade angle, and ( for the paddles I > have tried) they tend to flutter less than wide blades. But this is, of > course is a very personal opinion, only valid for myself. > Handling includes, or should include, bracing and rolling. After years of rolling with a Greenland paddle, I find a wider-bladed "Euro" paddle harder to set up for a roll after a capsize. The wider blade feels like it is fighting me as I try to move it underwater into the setup position, though maybe that's because of my lack of experience with it. For that matter, a short Greenland storm paddle can be easier to roll with than the standard Greenland paddle, mainly because you can sweep it faster through the water. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/11/01 2:47:14 PM, cholst_at_bitstream.net writes: << For that matter, a short Greenland storm paddle can be easier to roll with than the standard Greenland paddle, mainly because you can sweep it faster through the water. >> When I first learned to roll I was using this really skinny GL. It always struck me as odd that the wider paddles, which I would have thought would be easier, were substantially harder. When I made my new paddle I had to beef it up a bit to get the guys to quit griping about me being slow so I had to learn to roll comfortably with a wider blade. Now the skinny blade is so easy that I have to be careful not to do a 360. I wondered why that was. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Handling includes, or should include, bracing and rolling. After years of > rolling with a Greenland paddle, I find a wider-bladed "Euro" paddle harder > to set up for a roll after a capsize. The wider blade feels like it is > fighting me as I try to move it underwater into the setup position, though > maybe that's because of my lack of experience with it. > I'm still playing with and experimenting with the Greenland paddle. But so far I would have to say that while it seems to be efficient in propelling the boat, and it's certainly a joy to roll with, it is still severely lacking in the bracing department. Perhaps these paddles were designed to be so easy to roll with since they are so poor to use for bracing. Just an early observation :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Greenland paddlers, correct me if I'm wrong -- I have the impression that Greenland paddlers incorporate a skulling stroke into bracing situations. As long as that Greenland paddle is moving across the water, it provides lots of lift. Bob V > I'm still playing with and experimenting with the Greenland paddle. But so > far I would have to say that while it seems to be efficient in propelling the > boat, and it's certainly a joy to roll with, it is still severely lacking in > the bracing department. Perhaps these paddles were designed to be so easy to > roll with since they are so poor to use for bracing. Just an early > observation :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:52 PM 5/11/01 -0400, Bob Volin wrote: >Greenland paddlers, correct me if I'm wrong -- I have the impression that >Greenland paddlers incorporate a skulling stroke into bracing situations. >As long as that Greenland paddle is moving across the water, it provides >lots of lift. Bob, A sculling stroke provides strong lift for bracing, and I use this method, but my preference is usually to perform a high or low brace (similar to Euro-style but with an extended paddle) and then recover by simply sliding the paddle (along its length) back toward and over the foredeck. At the finish my torso is tucked low over the foredeck for stability. The paddle blade is pressed against the water during the recovery, rather than being rotated and sliced out. Although not a sculling motion, this does create a surprising amount of lift, as your inboard hand is slightly higher than the outboard paddle tip, so that the paddle shaft is at a slight climbing angle as the recovery progresses. This works well for the side and chest scull/brace positions and some folks use a similar method for "Euro" paddles too. I have observed that many novice paddlers using a Greenland "stick" brace with their hands in a normal (non-extended) position, then rotate the paddle 90 degrees during recovery to slice the outboard blade out of the water. This technique does not translate well for Greenland paddles. I generally use an extended paddle for all bracing, and extending the paddle becomes second nature. When done properly, one hand is always in firm control of the paddle. Hold the paddle firmly with the outboard hand (the hand toward the water) and pull it through the relaxed inboard hand as you lean toward the capsize. I avoid cupping my hand over the extreme tip of the paddle, and this is frowned upon in Greenland, as it requires you to remove one hand from the paddle (risky) and can break mortised paddle tips. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida http://www.magicnet.net/~gstamer/QK.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When the Eskimos (or related peoples) designed their paddles, what materials did they have to work with? Driftwood? Bone? >From these materials you cannot build a shaft with wide blades, because the blades would break. The only blades that would last would be narrow (e.g., Greenland) blades. Thus I suspect that the Greenland design came into being not because those early folks rejected a wide blade design in favor of a narrow blade, but because they did not have the materials (strong glues for laminating, plastics, composites, etc - all the products of technologically more advanced civilizations) needed to make the narrow shaft & wide blade combination, or what is sometimes called, condescendingly by some, the "white man's paddle." Please give some thought to this theory before you flame me for my political incorrectness! :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Driftwood it is Jack, Eskimo though? How's about Peoples of the Great NOrth? I think you would find that the surface area in contact with the water of a traditional paddle is at least close to or equal to that of Euro paddle. From what I have seen from some of the best Americans using them, our own Greg Stammer, Doug Van Doran, Ray Killen, etc. don't seem to have the acceleration with them, but can maintain momentum as well as any Euro. Ray Killen just wrote a fine article in the most recent issue of Anorak with quite some interesting information on them. Jack Fu wrote: > > When the Eskimos (or related peoples) designed their paddles, > what materials did they have to work with? Driftwood? Bone? > >From these materials you cannot build a shaft with wide blades, > because the blades would break. The only blades that would > last would be narrow (e.g., Greenland) blades. Thus I suspect > that the Greenland design came into being not because those > early folks rejected a wide blade design in favor of a narrow > blade, but because they did not have the materials (strong > glues for laminating, plastics, composites, etc - all the products > of technologically more advanced civilizations) needed to make > the narrow shaft & wide blade combination, or what is sometimes > called, condescendingly by some, the "white man's paddle." > > Please give some thought to this theory before you flame me > for my political incorrectness! > > :-) > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** -- ‡ Gabriel L Romeu ‡ ‡ http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or /paint ‡ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gabriel wrote: > I think you would find that the surface area in contact with the water > of a traditional paddle is at least close to or equal to that of Euro > paddle. From what I have seen from some of the best Americans using > them, our own Greg Stammer, Doug Van Doran, Ray Killen, etc. don't seem > to have the acceleration with them, but can maintain momentum as well as > any Euro. > I think that Gabriel touches on a very important point here. In any discussion on blade slippage, one has to consider whether one is getting the boat up to speed (acceleration of the boat, but little velocity), or simply maintaining boat speed (maintaining boat velocity, but no acceleration). Paddle slippage is the greatest when one is accelerating the boat from a dead stop to cruising speed, and is minimized when maintaining cruising speed. This would suggest that the most energy-efficient paddling style involves gradual acceleration, maintaining a steady speed, and applying force to the paddle over a longer duration of the stroke. Regards, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Original Message: From: Jack Fu <SeaDogJack_at_cablespeed.com> > When the Eskimos (or related peoples) designed their paddles, > what materials did they have to work with? Driftwood? Bone? > From these materials you cannot build a shaft with wide blades, > because the blades would break. The only blades that would > last would be narrow (e.g., Greenland) blades. Thus I suspect > that the Greenland design came into being not because those > early folks rejected a wide blade design in favor of a narrow > blade, but because they did not have the materials (strong > glues for laminating, plastics, composites, etc - all the products > of technologically more advanced civilizations) needed to make > the narrow shaft & wide blade combination, or what is sometimes > called, condescendingly by some, the "white man's paddle" > RESPONSE: Material/technology limitations likely were NOT the cause of Arctic kayak paddles being so narrow. Umiak oars, for example, are quite wide (see H.C. Petersen's "Skinboats of Greenland", pg. 146, and 160.) Steven Braund (in "The Skin Boats of St. Lawrence Island", pgs.68-72) describes Umiak paddles ranging from 5" wide to 9" wide. The technology to make wider blades definitely existed, whether they were carved out of a single-piece, or built up out of several pieces. I doubt that any 'lack' of technology is related to the advent of narrow kayak blades in the Arctic. Greenland has seen fairly steady contact with lumber-bearing peoples in the last four centuries. During this time, wood was brought to Greenland for housing construction and trade. Shipwrecks also provided much drift-wood. After centuries of using narrow kayak blades, there certainly was not a mad-rush to finally make wider blades whether carved, or laminated. For whatever reason wide blades were rejected in Greenland, it should be known that they are still rejected. Regardless of why narrow paddle blades were adopted, the Inuit should still be commended for using them, as they have surely found a superior means of propulsion-- one that our technologically smug culture is only slowly realizing. Harvey Golden *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Jack, several european paddlers using folding kayaks and european paddles have been among the greenland eskimo in the 1930s. At least more than 60 hunters of a great area attended the making of SOS Eisberg, where european paddles were available. They tried our paddles, and were asked about them: They said they were fine and fast but never adopted them. Gerald > When the Eskimos (or related peoples) designed their paddles, > what materials did they have to work with? Driftwood? Bone? > >From these materials you cannot build a shaft with wide blades, > because the blades would break. The only blades that would > last would be narrow (e.g., Greenland) blades. Thus I suspect > that the Greenland design came into being not because those > early folks rejected a wide blade design in favor of a narrow > blade, but because they did not have the materials (strong > glues for laminating, plastics, composites, etc - all the products > of technologically more advanced civilizations) needed to make > the narrow shaft & wide blade combination, or what is sometimes > called, condescendingly by some, the "white man's paddle." > > Please give some thought to this theory before you flame me > for my political incorrectness! > > :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Fu wrote: > Very interesting point Gerald. I didn't know that euro paddles > were available to the eskimos but they did not adopt them. > When offered something really useful (rifles, snowmobiles, > processed foods, etc.), they adopt them quickly. > > Jack Unfortunately, the massive decrease of traditional hunting techniques started in this time. We gave them our share by providing valuable things for their lives like alcohol ... The german film expedition stayed for several months in West Greenland and had strong support by the local eskimo community. Knut Rasmussen made the close contact to the local kayakers possible, otherwise it would have been impossible to get so many hunters into one place. At the end of the german version of the film you can see lots of Greenlanders picking up their kayaks, running to the beach and sealstarting with the kayaks. Dr. A. Fanck planned to use thousands of meters where he filmed the eskimos social live etc. which were not used in the film afterward for ethnological films but some idiot dumped them after cutting SOS Eisberg. Very interesting is the fact that you can see a skeg attached with ropes to one of the kayaks and several paddling kayakers. Gerald *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/12/01 6:28:55 PM, GUM_at_exmail.de writes: << Dr. A. Fanck planned to use thousands of meters where he filmed the eskimos social live etc. which were not used in the film afterward for ethnological films but some idiot dumped them after cutting SOS Eisberg. >> That makes me ache for the loss. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Fu writes: > When the Eskimos (or related peoples) designed their paddles, > what materials did they have to work with? Driftwood? Bone? Driftwood with (in Greenland) bone edges. But that driftwood included some pretty large logs, and many Inuit paddles had wider, lanceolate-shaped blades than the modern Greenland paddle, which appears to be only a few hundred years old. I think the main reason for the narrowness of the Greenland blade is to allow it to be held anywhere along its length. In Baffin Island and many other places, paddle blades were much too wide for this. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "cholst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> > Driftwood with (in Greenland) bone edges. But that driftwood included some > pretty large logs, and many Inuit paddles had wider, lanceolate-shaped > blades than the modern Greenland paddle, which appears to be only a few > hundred years old. I think it was John Brand that suggested that the current popular shape of the Greenland style paddle was copied from the British. The early contact with the Brits exposed them to the long oars that were used to row the gigs and such. He suggests as well that the style spread quickly, replacing other, older shapes. However, there is such scant archeological evidence that this is hard to support. It is tempting to believe such things. Fads (memetic behavior) hold a strong attraction to people and create a powerful means of shaping acceptance of a style or technology. Brand also explains the popularity of the Greenland style kayak in Britain with its association with Gino Watkins - a hero way back when. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly writes: > From: "cholst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> > > >> Driftwood with (in Greenland) bone edges. But that driftwood included some >> pretty large logs, and many Inuit paddles had wider, lanceolate-shaped >> blades than the modern Greenland paddle, which appears to be only a few >> hundred years old. > > I think it was John Brand that suggested that the current popular shape of the > Greenland style paddle was copied from the British. The early contact with > the Brits exposed them to the long oars that were used to row the gigs and > such. He suggests as well that the style spread quickly, replacing other, older > shapes. However, there is such scant archeological evidence that this is hard > to support. The main problem I have with Brand's hypothesis is that the Greenlanders retained the wide blades on their oars and went to narrow blades only on their paddles, which are used quite differently. Also, there is apparently some evidence of intermediate shapes between the older lanceolate blade and the modern Greenland blade. The evolution was very rapid, however, and the modern Greenland paddle was in use by the 18th century. It may have been about the same time that H.C. Petersen says the Greenlanders started paddling more in winter, and maybe that also had an influence on paddle design. One thing I have discovered from personal experience is that the carved shoulder on a Greenland paddle gives a better grip when the paddle is iced up; also that since the blade does not ice up because it is almost constantly immersed, it also has a good grip in freezing weather. > It is tempting to believe such things. Fads (memetic behavior) hold a strong > attraction to people and create a powerful means of shaping acceptance of > a style or technology. Brand also explains the popularity of the Greenland > style kayak in Britain with its association with Gino Watkins - a hero way back > when. > I think I read in Ocean Paddler magazine -- or maybe that info is from a slide lecture by Sam Cook -- that the first fiberglass design in the Greenland style, the Anas Acuta, was based on a more recent trip to Greenland than the Watkins expeditions. Also, I believe the Anas Acuta is more similar to Southwest Greenland kayaks than to the East Greenland style kayaks the Watkins expeditions used. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > < I'm still playing with and experimenting with the Greenland paddle. But so > far I would have to say that while it seems to be efficient in propelling the > boat, and it's certainly a joy to roll with, it is still severely lacking in > the bracing department. Perhaps these paddles were designed to be so easy to > roll with since they are so poor to use for bracing.> > > Scott > So.Cal. Try practicing (with your Greenland paddle) the "buttering your bread" move Dutky describes in "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond"(a book I discovered through PW connections). You edge the boat and perform a continuous medley of reverse sweeps in low brace position (from stern to bow) immediately transforming into a forward sweep in high brace position, all the while swaying the upper body back and forth to follow, with head and body, paddle movement. I find bracing much easier with the Greenland paddle but you need to keep the paddle moving to produce lift. Dennis > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's funny how we all have different takes on things - I find it's very easy to brace with the greenland paddle. In fact, I think I do better with that than with the euro paddle. Maybe because it's very buoyant. What I have trouble with is draws, especially the hanging draw. I'm sure it's just a matter of technique, and I haven't mastered it yet. But I'm working on it. Joan I would have to say that while it seems to be efficient in > propelling the > boat, and it's certainly a joy to roll with, it is still severely > lacking in > the bracing department. Perhaps these paddles were designed to be so > easy to > roll with since they are so poor to use for bracing. Just an early > observation :-) > > Scott > So.Cal. > > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions > expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the > author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Is a "hanging draw" a static draw while the boat is in motion, or is it a sculling draw? And what do you do with it? Thanks - Dennis volinjo_at_juno.com wrote: > I find it's very easy to brace with the greenland paddle (snip) > What I have trouble with is draws, especially the hanging draw. > > Joan > > > > > > > ************************************************************************* > ** > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions > > expressed > > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the > > author. > > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > > > ************************************************************************* > ** > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:55 AM 5/12/2001 -0500, Dennis, Becky & Natalie wrote: >Is a "hanging draw" a static draw while the boat is in motion, or is it a >sculling draw? And what do you do with it? It's the former. It is a static stroke (that is, once the blade is in position it isn't moved). The paddle shaft should be near vertical and close to the hull. The blade should be just behind the hip and ever so slightly angled such that the leading edge is just a bit outside the trailing edge. The upper body should be rotated toward the side with the paddle in the water. The boat should travel sideways. It can be a tricky stroke to master because too much blade angle causes the paddle to move away from the hull and cause the boat to turn. Too little blade angle and the leading edge will turn toward the hull and the blade will start to move *under* the boat. If you don't react quickly it's easy to capsize and you're not in a good bracing position. I often use it when I am paddling up to a dock and want to come up parallel. It's not really an aggressive stroke. If you need to move the boat sideways quickly (ie. to avoid an obstacle) while on the move, a "draw on the move" is better. Basically, you reach out to the side with a fairly vertical shaft and the power face toward the hull and parallel to it, and draw the blade straight toward the boat vigoursly. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is a static draw while the boat is in motion. You use it to move your boat sideways quickly, without losing forward momentum. A draw on the mvoe would be a quick, active draw, that will move your boat over a short distance, i.e., enough to miss a log in your path, or some such. I've only done sculling draws while the boat is not moving forward, so that the only momentum it has is sideways, and is a result of the sculling movement of the paddle. Joan On Sat, 12 May 2001 08:55:20 -0500 "Dennis, Becky & Natalie" <arebecca1_at_qwest.net> writes: > Is a "hanging draw" a static draw while the boat is in motion, or is > it a > sculling draw? And what do you do with it? > > Thanks - Dennis > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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