G'Day again and thanks for all the responses. Here's my attempt to answer the questions. Natalie Wiest wrote:- >I'm not sure what you are describing as "cocked wrists". I was using the expression to describe the use of a control hand eg: "The control hand uses wrist and forearm motion to rotate the shaft so that each blade meets the water at the right angle" from The Essential Sea Kayaker; or "Remember that your right, controlling hand moves the shaft by dropping the wrist, bending the elbow or doing both at the same time" from The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking. Joan Spinner wrote:- >I would really like to hear more comment on what you learned. What, "long >held beliefs were dispelled?" You don't have to say they were yours, just >what were the ones that stuck out to you. The other thing is what criteria >did she give for judging paddle length? Most of the long held beliefs were my own. I'm pretty sure that the forward paddling technique is a well known method for flat water kayakers and may be the one condemned as silly for use at sea by John Dowd in his book "Sea kayaking". As I seldom paddle more than 15km and rarely in chop greater than two or three feet high, this may become a suitable style for me but not for more "gung ho" paddlers. Lynda did emphasise that this was a forward stroke for getting places with a minimum of effort and not a substitute for bracing or sweep strokes. Very occasionally I've been in seas where this stroke would have led to some rolling practice! Four beliefs that were shattered 1. The need to use wrist control as described above - it was interesting to learn a technique in which wrist control was unnecessary whether or not the paddle was feathered. 2. That it was easier to paddle fast with a long shaft - this had been my own prejudice not based on any tuition but with Lynda's techique or low angle paddling I definitely needed a shorter shaft 3. That an unfeathered paddle would not rotate the wrist - Lynda showed that an unfeathered paddle could rotate a wrist if one were not careful 4. That good posture must necessarily mean sitting upright - In fact she advocated a slight lean forward with a straight back. I still have a powerful memory of her knee in the small of my back pushing it straight! I also learnt:- - To let the bottom arm do most of the moving during the power section of the stroke - Not to push the paddle forward with the top hand as it is wasteful of energy using movement to reduce the power of the stroke. - I had no problem blending sweep, low brace, low angle stroke or stern rudder with this stroke - I hadn't realised just how inefficient it was to take the blade past the hip or to use a low angle stroke except when necessary for support The method for measuring shaft length was carried out sitting in a kayak in the water with legs slightly bent. One holds the paddle with the lower hand 6 inches from the junction of the shaft and blade and places it in the catch position ie blade near vertical, close to the hull, submerged and just in front of the feet. The other hand should be somewhere between the top of the head and the chin and neither wrist should be bent. If the top hand is 6 inches from the junction of the shaft and top blade then the paddle length is right for this technique. There was more but its been a long working day and my memory is fading:~) I'll follow up with an opinion on effectiveness in a months time when I've tried the stroke for a bit. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/9/01 8:36:04 AM, rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au writes: << As a novice I can't and should not try to do justice to our instructor's lesson, except that some long held beliefs were dispelled. Most of the failings in technique were ones I'd heard many times such as the need to rotate the body and to lift the paddle out near the hip. Some points shone out. >> Peter, I would really like to hear more comment on what you learned. What, "long held beliefs were dispelled?" You don't have to say they were yours, just what were the ones that stuck out to you. The other thing is what criteria did she give for judging paddle length? Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/9/01 5:31:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au writes: (PeterO): > the topic > was forward paddling with Lynda Lehman, an Olympic kayaker and instructor of > many years experience. The operative words here might be "Olympic Kayaker". One of the problems which repeatedly comes up is that people tend to think and teach that "technique is technique", without allowing appropriate changes in technique, style and equipment for different types of paddling. The "best" technique for touring is not, IMNSHO, the same as racing or whitewater technique. And yet, there are many instructors who come from a racing or whitewater background and therefore seem to the novice to possess the correct credentials, who teach racing or whitewater technique for use in touring (whether casual or extended self-supported distance touring), storm paddling, etc. I'm not saying that Lynda was necessarily doing this, just voicing a caution that you analyze what someone shows you and see if they are teaching what you really need. > In particular was Lynda's explanation as to why it was never > necessary in forward paddling to "cock" the wrist, whether or not the paddle > was feathered. This is true. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that either feathered or traditional (straight) is *the* way to go. Again, it depends on what your situation is. For whitewater and racing, the feathered paddle makes total sense. For touring, where we tend to use a lower stroke which is more restful and lower in the wind gradient, traditional makes more sense, unless we are beating into a very heavy wind for a short time, in which case switching to feathered might save a lot of energy. > her observation that just about all of us had paddles > which were either too long or far too long, together with a clear > description of how to set the paddle shaft length. Now this was all in the context of > forward strokes so there might be an argument for having a longer paddle to > brace better - but after a little practice I'm beginning to doubt it. Shorter has great advantages in racing and whitewater where speed of stroke is important and you use a steep power stroke (reducing the need to raise the hands to clear the water). Too short a paddle in touring reduces the power of not only your bracing, but more importantly, your sweep strokes. During a sweep stroke, a shorter paddle has less leverage and the reduced reach also places the effort closer to the turning (rotational) point of the boat. Here again, people sometimes tend to simplify the length and/or blade-size "equations" too much. Dave Kruger wrote: >Generated significant tendon pain when "graduated" from a 235 cm Werner San Juan (monster blades) to a 245 . . . .Switched to a 220 cm Lightning standard sea kayak paddle that summer (medium-size blades) and have been relatively tendon-pain-free since< You cannot separate paddle length from blade size. Either a longer paddle *or* a larger blade will increase the drive of the paddle and thus slow your stroke and also place more stress on your muscles and all the suspension hardware in your wrist, elbow and shoulder joints. If Dave had switched from the 235 SJ to a 245 Camano (10% less blade area) instead of maintaining the same blade area, he would have had about the same force in his forward stroke, with more reach during his sweeps and braces, but with more paddle sticking out into the wind (everything has its up and down sides). In touring, we usually use a longer paddle than in racing or WW because it allows us to keep the elbows down low, near our sides, to reduce the effort expended in raising and lowering the weight of the arm/paddle combo during each stroke and to also keep the blade low. Even if we can all agree on this, however, there are still other arguments for preferring either a little longer or shorter that people will come up with. This is certainly reflected in regional differences you will see. For example, the Brits seem to prefer sub-220 cm paddles for single touring kayaks, while many in the Northwest USA have championed 230-240 cm or longer for the same boat category, and we sell mostly 220-230 cm paddles for single touring boats. > I'ld be interested in other opinions on paddle length. Several people > have talked on Paddlewise about problems arising from the use of feathered > paddles with cocked wrists. But as I heard on Saturday it doesn't seem to be > necessary to rotate the wrist provided the paddle length and forward stroke > are adjusted appropriately. See Matt Broze's excellent instruction on this subject at the Mariner site (www.marinerkayaks.com). I use Matt's low-hand control technique in surf and WW or during those few and brief times when I'll switch to feathered use in a touring kayak; it works. Just my sense of this best-of-all-possible-worlds. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote: [snip of excellent treatise on length and blade area components of "my paddle is too long"] > Here again, people sometimes tend to simplify the length and/or blade-size > "equations" too much. > Dave Kruger wrote: >Generated significant tendon pain > when "graduated" from a 235 cm Werner San Juan (monster blades) to a 245 . . > . .Switched to a 220 cm Lightning standard sea kayak paddle that summer > (medium-size blades) and have been relatively tendon-pain-free since< > You cannot separate paddle length from blade size. Either a longer paddle > *or* a larger blade will increase the drive of the paddle and thus slow your > stroke and also place more stress on your muscles and all the suspension > hardware in your wrist, elbow and shoulder joints. If Dave had switched from > the 235 SJ to a 245 Camano (10% less blade area) instead of maintaining the > same blade area, he would have had about the same force in his forward > stroke, with more reach during his sweeps and braces, but with more paddle > sticking out into the wind (everything has its up and down sides). > In touring, we usually use a longer paddle than in racing or WW because it > allows us to keep the elbows down low, near our sides, to reduce the effort > expended in raising and lowering the weight of the arm/paddle combo during > each stroke and to also keep the blade low. Even if we can all agree on > this, however, there are still other arguments for preferring either a little > longer or shorter that people will come up with. This is certainly reflected > in regional differences you will see. For example, the Brits seem to prefer > sub-220 cm paddles for single touring kayaks, while many in the Northwest USA > have championed 230-240 cm or longer for the same boat category, and we sell > mostly 220-230 cm paddles for single touring boats. Harold, I should have been more explicit. After I blew out my tendons with the 245 San Juan, I could not paddle comfortably even going back to the 235 San Juan. In order to decrease the stresses on my wrist, elbow, shoulder system to the point that I did not re-injure myself, I had to back off to the shorter Lightning, which also has a smaller blade area than the San Juan. In other words, I had to work both pieces of the paddle system in the same direction. The paddle I use has a smaller blade face than the Camano, so I doubt switching from a 235 SJ to a 235 Camano would have been OK. For the record, the only time I wish I had that San Juan back is in surf. That small Lightning stick just does not give me enough push on bracing and steering, _quick enough!_ It's hell getting old! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Some of us older paddlers are still using 90 degree feather blades. I started racing [sprint and distance] in 1967, stopped in 1994 [slalom by that time] and still paddle 150 days a year. Always with a 90 degree feather. And never a sore wrist, even after 35 mile races. If you put your arm flat on a table and cock the wrist back, you will see [get a protractor if necessary] that the human wrist cannot bend back 90 degrees. So there has always been a "fudge factor" in wrist rotation, usually by letting the paddle slide ever so slightly through the fingers. Hence the huge callouses, I think. Really good technique means doing what your body and muscle types let you do naturally, always building up slowly. It takes a really insightful coach or instructor to be able to adjust the basic tenets of good form to the body type of the student. Because the paddle is not fixed to an attachment, as is an oar, there will not be a "perfect forward stroke". A person with long arms and torso will have to paddle differently from a person with long arms and a short torso or short arms and short torso. Watch Olympic sprint racers and you will see great variations in techniques. And they do nothing but forward strokes, so they should be pretty good at it. In my non-humble opinion, almost everything for newer paddlers ties in to balance, or lack of it. A newer paddler keeps everything [elbows, hands, torso] close to the center of gravity. As balance improves, stroke technique should change by extending. Jim Tibensky _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Harold wrote: >>>>For touring, where we tend to use a lower stroke which is more restful and lower in the wind gradient, traditional makes more sense, unless we are beating into a very heavy wind for a short time, in which case switching to feathered might save a lot of energy.<<<<< While I'll admit that unfeathered paddles suffer less disadvantages than usual when used with a low angle stroke I don't seem to have any problem using feathered paddles at a low angle either so I'd appreciate hearing why you think "traditional paddles make more sense" for touring. Why "for a short time"? Wouldn't it be even more beneficial to feather if you had to paddle into the wind for a long time. Harold wrote: >>>>>>Too short a paddle in touring reduces the power of not only your bracing, but more importantly, your sweep strokes. During a sweep stroke, a shorter paddle has less leverage and the reduced reach also places the effort closer to the turning (rotational) point of the boat.<<<< I find I can make my 220 paddle into the equivalent of a 260 cm or longer paddle temporarily to gain leverage by simply shifting my hand position when I want a broad sweep. If the wind is high this has the secondary advantage of vastly reducing the leverage (length of lever-arm) the wind has to wrest the upper blade from my control while doing the broad sweep. So it seems easy for me to make a short paddle long when I need it but much more difficult to make the long paddle short during the vast majority of times when that is an advantage. Harold wrote: >>>>>>>You cannot separate paddle length from blade size. Either a longer paddle *or* a larger blade will increase the drive of the paddle and thus slow your stroke and also place more stress on your muscles and all the suspension hardware in your wrist, elbow and shoulder joints. If Dave had switched from the 235 SJ to a 245 Camano (10% less blade area) instead of maintaining the same blade area, he would have had about the same force in his forward stroke, with more reach during his sweeps and braces, but with more paddle sticking out into the wind (everything has its up and down sides).<<<< If you were paddling in a light fluid like air I would agree with this (and I prefer small to medium sized blades to cut the wind force acting on me). This seems to be logical and just "common sense", however I think it is wrong, in a heavy fluid like water, once the blade area is big enough that it hardly moves in the water as the kayak is drawn past it, it wouldn't make the leverage hardly any greater if you tripled the blade area. Both the standard and huge blades would still do essentially the same thing, hardly move at all through the water as the kayak was drawn past. Those big blades would be hell in the wind though. Therefore, paddle length is by far the biggest factor determining the strain placed on ones muscles and joints during a stroke taken in water (while overcoming the same drag). A disadvantage of the longer paddle is that with the blade further from the kayak each stroke has a greater percentage of ones energy use in turning rather than propelling the kayak ahead. Another is that with the blade further from ones hands one has a lot less control over that more distant blade. While the brace may have more leverage with a longer paddle it will also take longer for one to start to brace (which I think will more than compensate) and the shorter paddle will give you better control of the blade for things like sculling braces. Paddling deeper to get the long paddle to not turn you so much has been suggested and may seem logical but in practice it is fraught with difficulties. It is hard to withdraw a deep blade for a quick slap brace, the upper blade is lifted higher and more into a stronger wind gradient and the shaft underwater is pushing in the wrong direction and working against your forward propulsion because the pivot point (of the shaft) during the stroke is now under water. Harold wrote: >>>>>>>In touring, we usually use a longer paddle than in racing or WW because it allows us to keep the elbows down low, near our sides, to reduce the effort expended in raising and lowering the weight of the arm/paddle combo during each stroke and to also keep the blade low. <<<<<< This is true if you use an unfeathered paddle and don't practice "low hand control" with it. In that case you must lift your arms at the elbows, as most unfeathered paddlers do, (to take out the 45 degree rotation your paddle naturally goes through during switching sides before a stroke as you lift your hand --that is pivoting around your elbow--if the elbow is held at your side). This is why unfeathered paddlers tend to see so much advantage in a low stroke and feathered paddlers don't see many benefits to it. Lifting the elbows is just not a problem with feathered paddles, which naturally keep your elbows at your sides even with a high angle stroke. If you also use a shorter, smaller bladed paddle you will be lifting less blade weight, less high, thus saving a little more energy with each stroke. Harold wrote: >>>>>See Matt Broze's excellent instruction on this subject at the Mariner site (www.marinerkayaks.com). I use Matt's low-hand control technique in surf and WW or during those few and brief times when I'll switch to feathered use in a touring kayak; it works.<<<<<<< Thanks for the plug, but we strongly recommend a seasoned paddler stick with one feather or the other and don't switch to meet the conditions of the time. Switching destroys your reflex brace (once you have developed one--and you are unlikely too develop one if you do keep switching around). This is because you must think which way you are paddling before bracing. I advocate new paddlers play around with both feathered and unfeathered, left and right feathered, and different feather angles early on in their paddling careers but then decide on one way and stick to it when learning bracing, rolls and rough water skills. The only reason to switch later is if you have some problem that switching alleviates and then you should learn a new reflex brace and stick with the change. John Dowd reports having to switch back to feathered paddling (which he had not done in 20 years) when he was paddling a tippy surf ski in Hawaii's surf. He had learned his reflex braces paddling feathered as a youth and then he paddled stable Klepper doubles for the next 20 years (after switching to end his wrist problems). This was before "low hand control". His experience (and influential book) have had a lot to do with the impression that unfeathered paddling is THE solution to wrist problems. John Fereira wrote about what he learned fro Derek H.: >>>>>Specifically, if your technique results in keeping your wrists for repeatedly bending to the limit of their range of motion you're not going to have problems with your wrists. One way to do that is to bend your elbow on your control arm as well as bending your wrist. If both joints bend, neither has to bend as much. Using a shorter paddle, doesn't by itself, keep one from cocking their wrist to it's maximum range of motion. It's the technique of using a vertical paddle stroke that does that.<<<<<< Gee, one of the few things I can agree with Derek on. I disagree with bending both wrists a little to share the strain though. (Was that Derek's solution or yours?) A bent wrist is a weak wrist. The pulling wrist should be straight, but loose, like a rope. The pushing hand should line the wrist up with the elbow and the paddle shaft and then push straight in line with the forearm like a straight punch. Any bends in the system will take energy and strain to maintain and will most likely be the weak link in the system too and limit your power potential. Opening the upper hand during the stroke lets the paddle rotate as well as prevents the wrist from having to bend side to side to follow the changing angle of the paddle shaft. In other words the joint in the system should be the hand paddle connection and not your wrist. It could be in a cast without hurting your stroke. This is true for either feathered or unfeathered paddling. Try it now before you get wrist problems. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/10/01 9:28:44 AM, rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au writes: << There was more but its been a long working day and my memory is fading:~) I'll follow up with an opinion on effectiveness in a months time when I've tried the stroke for a bit. >> Thanks Peter. I appreciate what you had the energy to post. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scansport (www.pakboats.com) recommends a 225 paddle for the Puffin folding kayak that has a 29" beam. I regularly paddle with a Mid-Swift 220. Mitchell Paddles make them. I just got a 4-piece paddle for traveling, but it's "in the bag" and ready for the California trip (assuming the water is not too ##%$$_at_## cold!) so I haven't had a chance to try it out. It's not as light as the Swift, so I'm sure it will take getting used to but I didn't want to pay carbon megabucks for a paddle that will be used mostly on trips. I think that body size/height is relevant because a female neighbor who is about 5' 8" tall (I'm 5'0" short) looked out of proportion from behind so I switched her to a Werner Camano 240. This was her first time..on a SOT...on our lake. sandy kramer miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: >>While I'll admit that unfeathered paddles suffer less disadvantages than usual when used with a low angle stroke I don't seem to have any problem using feathered paddles at a low angle either so I'd appreciate hearing why you think "traditional paddles make more sense" for touring. Why "for a short time"? Wouldn't it be even more beneficial to feather if you had to paddle into the wind for a long time.<< I see traditional (straight) paddles as making more sense because in coastal kayaking the wind comes at you from all quarters. The feathered paddle only helps (to any large degree IMHO) when you are paddling into the wind. In a crosswind it is a liability and downwind no help. So 2/3 of the time the straight paddle wins. For a short time? Only because I far prefer the relaxed feel of the traditional paddle. I use a Greenland stick most of the time except when teaching classes, when I use a straight Euro. I tend to build tension using the feathered Euro and find it more trouble than it is worth. I have actually only found the need to feather a Euro three times in ten years to make progress through winds. The rest of the time I rely on narrow blades and low technique. An aside -- I found using feathered paddles in the wind easier when all of them were still 90* instead of the diluted angles of today. The 70*-and-less offsets make the upper blade climb and stall in a heavy wind and this adds a lot of tension either trying to control the effect or ignore it. >>I find I can make my 220 paddle into the equivalent of a 260 cm or longer paddle temporarily to gain leverage by simply shifting my hand position when I want a broad sweep. If the wind is high this has the secondary advantage of vastly reducing the leverage (length of lever-arm) the wind has to wrest the upper blade from my control while doing the broad sweep.<< I agree. I spend a lot of time teaching beginners to not move their hands around on the shaft, so I tend to practice what I teach, except when using the Greenland paddle, which I find very natural in extended strokes. However, on a recent trip to Belize I trusted that the friend who was providing me with equipment would have a suitable paddle and thus wound up using 250 cm Camano for my spare and an approximate 100-110 cm Skinny Dipper (the beloved old-style Werner Little Dipper) for my main paddle. I liked the short length when paddling in winds, but had a devil of a time correcting course without extending. The problem is that you don't get much extension out of Euro without shifting your hand to the end of the blade, and I find that uncomfortable and perhaps inadvisable in rough conditions. This is all irrelevant with Greenland sticks. >> in a heavy fluid like water, once the blade area is big enough that it hardly moves in the water as the kayak is drawn past it, it wouldn't make the leverage hardly any greater if you tripled the blade area. Both the standard and huge blades would still do essentially the same thing, hardly move at all through the water as the kayak was drawn past. Those big blades would be hell in the wind though. << I agree to a point. For me, smaller (narrower -- not necessarily smaller area) is definitely vastly superior in the air, particularly in winds. And I think that there must be a point where increases in size and/or length no longer result in reduced slippage in the range of power generated by most of us. However, it just hasn't been my experience that this has caught up to me within the paddle size range I use. I once tested the Skinny Dipper, Camano and San Juan paddles in 220 and 230 lengths over a short, closed course by paddling with one after the other at what a perceived-constant rate of output. My findings were that I took 10% fewer strokes as I jumped from blade to blade, going from smallest to largest, and also 10% fewer strokes going from the 220 to the 230 in each blade type. I did not notice the slight increase in stress on my body during any of the tests. However, I have also day paddled with all the above and the difference switching from blade to blade and up or down in length makes a big difference in how my body feels after five to ten miles. I definitely hurt myself with the larger, longer paddles, so they must be giving me more bite. I think the answer is that longer and/or larger makes a difference when first accelerating the boat and at the catch of each stroke. Once the boat is gliding at speed and the blade has established pressure against the water, then I would believe there was little discernible difference in slippage. But when accelerating the boat, and when establishing water pressure against the blade during the catch phase of the stroke, I feel that the more powerful paddle is like jogging on pavement in your bare feet -- no shock absorption, a quick impact of force onto your muscles, resulting in muscle soreness and quicker tiring. >>A disadvantage of the longer paddle is that with the blade further from the kayak each stroke has a greater percentage of ones energy use in turning rather than propelling the kayak ahead.<< True. However, I think that this is of less concern in touring than in racing. >>Another is that with the blade further from ones hands one has a lot less control over that more distant blade. While the brace may have more leverage with a longer paddle it will also take longer for one to start to brace<< Agreed. However, when talking about differences of 10 cm or so (2-1/2 inches per side) do you think this really matters that much for a touring kayak? I can see the critical nature of length in Rodeo and performance surfing, but not so much in touring. If you start comparing a 220 to the very long 250-ish paddles favored by some in the NW (is this still the trend?) then, yes -- the difference is easy to feel. >>Paddling deeper to get the long paddle to not turn you so much has been suggested and may seem logical but in practice it is fraught with difficulties.<snip> << It would also tend to rock the boat fore and aft, robbing the boat of speed. Matt, thanks for your comments. I'm always awed to hear from the man. Just out of curiosity, what stick do you usually use? Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). 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>I also learnt:- > >- Not to push the paddle forward with the top hand as it is wasteful of >energy using movement to reduce the power of the stroke. Interesting, we have one racing/touring paddler of long years of experience advocating the push - emphasising it. I've noticed with new paddlers, getting them to add "push" and how their speed goes up as you talk to them (on the water). ???????? Alex . . Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Could it be somewhat mental?? This is a bit convoluted logic, but here goes: In bicycling there is a procedure called "honking" ( Standing on the petals and not on the seat ).... I was instructed some time ago that the driving force on the bicycle is not the forward foot pushing down, but the rearward foot pulling upward. Don't concentrate on pushing the forward foot down, but instead, concentrate on lifting the trailing foot. Now, I, being a Physics major, have a tendency to apply a bit of Physics. If you lift the back foot by as little as 5 lbs, then the pressure on the back petal is reduced by 5#. That 5# is transferred to the forward foot. Which pushes down on the forward petal by 5# - Net difference = 10# added to the petal stroke. So for every # of lift that you pull with the back foot, you get back twice in available petal force. Anytime I concentrate on lifting the trailing foot, my speed goes up. With no additional effort. Now for the kayak... I have noticed that when I concentrate on pushing the upward paddle shaft, The amount of effort to paddle appears to go down and the speed increases. So, I ask myself why.... I have come up with this weird set of conclusions... 1) IN order to push, you have to relax the upper hand. Maybe what is happening is that we are getting more rest during the stroke? 2) WHEN you concentrate on pushing the upper paddle, I have a tendency to "Put my shoulder" into it. Maybe what is happening is that to push the upper paddle I really force the shoulders and abs into the picture. 3) In order to push the upper paddle, I have to lower my paddle stroke to be no higher that the shoulder. 4) The Triceps ( The pushing muscles ) are stronger than the biceps. Me personally think that the solution is some combination of the four. Who cares. Live long and paddle. ( Stollen from Alex ) Wayne As long as I paddle, or bike or walk, I live. Whenever I arrive, I have cheated death once again. ( My new tag line ) ------------------------------ Alex Ferguson wrote: > >I also learnt:- > > > >- Not to push the paddle forward with the top hand as it is wasteful of > >energy using movement to reduce the power of the stroke. > > Interesting, we have one racing/touring paddler of long years of experience > advocating the push - emphasising it. I've noticed with new paddlers, > getting them to add "push" and how their speed goes up as you talk to them > (on the water). > > ???????? > > Alex > . > . > Alex (Sandy) Ferguson > Chemistry Department > University of Canterbury > New Zealand > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** -- Wayne Smith (ò¿ó) http://www.waynesmith.net/ Humour: http://www.yahoogroups.com/subscribe/Bandido_Jokesters October 7, 1999 - 315 lb. - BMI: 44 - Dr Rumbaut - Monterrey, Mexico Reached goal of 185# July 2000 - Have been +/- 4# ever since. --------------------------------------------------- Tag Line for Today: "A critic is a man who knows the way but can't drive the car." -- Kenneth Tynan --------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Regarding the push on the forward stroke - Hold the paddle as if to make a forward stroke but put the blade into the water about at your knee instead of your ankle. Now push as fast and hard as you can with the top arm but do not move the lower one at all. Use the lower hand as a fulcrum but do not move it. The boat creeps about ten inches forward. Now extend the top arm with the elbow locked straight so that it can only give a little push downward. Then twist your upper body and pull with your lower arm as in a normal stroke. Or do a normal stroke with as little help from the top arm as possible. The boat will jump forward about a boat length. Or more! Because body types are so different - long arms with long torso, short arms with short torso, etc. - there is not, and never will be, a perfect stroke. In rowing there is a perfect stroke because the oar is fixed to the boat. Muscle strengths and weaknesses, body make up and balance will all affect the forward kayak stroke. Especially balance. In the late '60s when I raced and coached sprint kayaking there were three general types of strokes. One was the "Scandinavian" stroke. It was also called the "sway-impulse" stroke because the elbows hardly bent at all, the power came from torso rotation and the top arm was nearly passive. In fact, the top arm was hardly on top, they kept both arms about an inch off the cockpit throughout the stroke. And they had really high seats. Those guys won a lot of world championships. As did the outstanding 500 meter guy from Poland named Stefan Kaplanak who told me the push was 75% of his power. He was so strong he would break footbraces or snap the seat right off its mounting. No one stroke style will ever be best for everyone. Jim Tibensky _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "James Tibensky" <jtibensky_at_msn.com> > Now extend the top arm with the elbow locked straight so that it can only > give a little push downward. Then twist your upper body and pull with your > lower arm as in a normal stroke. Or do a normal stroke with as little help > from the top arm as possible. I've dropped the push-pull from my stroke and use a relaxed, bent-elbow arm position with just torso rotation. I have completely eliminated elbow soreness from my paddling. I haven't slowed down significantly but enjoy it all more. Experiment with you stroke and ignore the racers! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<< >I also learnt:- >- Not to push the paddle forward with the top hand as it is wasteful of energy using movement to reduce the power of the stroke. Alex Ferguson: Interesting, we have one racing/touring paddler of long years of experience advocating the push - emphasising it. I've noticed with new paddlers, getting them to add "push" and how their speed goes up as you talk to them (on the water). Ralph Hoehn: Not to mention the long haul "cheat" of concentrating on the push (and torso rotation) when you run out of steam for the pull. I would not advocate such simplifications in teaching stroke technique, but try it on the water after a few hours and see whether it doesn't refresh your speed. Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Harold wrote: >>>>Just out of curiosity, what stick do you usually use?<<<<< A big one, it allows me to speak softly.;-) I usually paddle with a 220 Std. blade Lightning or a 220 Epic Wayfarer both in lightweight graphite and left feathered to 75 degrees (I'm right handed). Harold wrote: >>>>Amen, Brother. Though even ten years ago, I could pull my body apart with a 220 Camano. My body is built more for the 220 Little Dipper. Anything larger and I have to be careful or I'll strip my gears.<<<< Is it so hard to be careful? I've always wondered why not just not yank so hard at first if using a stiff shaft or other paddle that folks claim tears them up. Harold wrote: >>>>I see traditional (straight) paddles as making more sense because in coastal kayaking the wind comes at you from all quarters. The feathered paddle only helps (to any large degree IMHO) when you are paddling into the wind. In a crosswind it is a liability and downwind no help. So 2/3 of the time the straight paddle wins.<<<< Are you going to trying to say that the wind helps an unfeathered paddler going down wind? Let's look at that. The upper blade moves forward roughly 2.5 times the speed of the kayak. Say the kayak is going 4 knots into a 10 knot wind. The relative wind on the blades is thus 20 knots at the top of the stroke. The same area on the kayak would be 14 knots. Because the force increases at the square of the speed there is a little over twice the force on the unfeathered paddle blade as an equal sized flat area on your body or boat. Now turn around and go downwind. with the same energy expenditure you could probably make 5 knots but for the sake of consistency I'll keep the speed at 4 knots downwind in a 10 knot wind. Blade speed 10 knots, wind speed 10 knots. Relative wind 0 knots, or no help at all. In reality the wind is going to have to be over 12 knots for one to get the slightest help from the unfeathered blades, and then because of the square of the speed thing the force will be very small relative to the loss going into the wind. Because you can't go as fast into a wind you will also spend a lot more time paddling into the wind as going downwind to cover the same distance. Now let's look at side winds. While it is true that the wind can get under the blade if one takes too high a stroke in an extreme sidewinder I have had no trouble learning not to expose my blade flat to the wind in these kind of conditions. not since my earliest experiences in extreme wind (Friday the 13th Storm in Seattle--gusts reached 79 mph) have I had to let go of the paddle with the upper hand to avoid a capsize. I'm careful not to expose the blade flat to the wind in those conditions. But what would I do if the wind caught my body too upright and started to knock me over. Probably I'd do a reflex brace without thinking. With a feathered paddle the blade would end up high at the end of the brace but edge on to the wind. If I was paddling unfeathered my automatic reflexes just might get me in trouble. The big win is in headwinds, minor advantage to unfeathered at best in strong tailwinds and some arguable points either way in side winds. Harold wrote: >>>>An aside -- I found using feathered paddles in the wind easier when all of them were still 90* instead of the diluted angles of today. The 70*-and-less offsets make the upper blade climb and stall in a heavy wind and this adds a lot of tension either trying to control the effect or ignore it.<<<< This was my finding as well which is why I'm disturbed by the new 45 or 60 degree feather fad. 45 to 60 works better than any other feather in light winds but they are hell in a real blow. Unfortunately most using them have never had the experience to find this out before purchasing the paddle. Harold wrote: >>>>However, on a recent trip to Belize I trusted that the friend who was providing me with equipment would have a suitable paddle and thus wound up using 250 cm Camano for my spare and an approximate 100-110 cm Skinny Dipper (the beloved old-style Werner Little Dipper) for my main paddle. I liked the short length when paddling in winds, but had a devil of a time correcting course without extending. The problem is that you don't get much extension out of Euro without shifting your hand to the end of the blade, and I find that uncomfortable and perhaps inadvisable in rough conditions.<<<< 100 cm is not even 40", I'm sure you mean 200 to 210. The blade on my Std. Lightning is 16" long, I think the blade on an old Little Dipper was the same as the Camano which is over 20" long. That's 8 less inches of shaft to move your hand around on, now add another 4 to 8 inches of shaft because my paddle is a 220 and I find I have plenty of leverage for anything I want to do without having to grip the blade to extend the paddle. This is one of the reasons I like short blades. Easier clearance over the kayak while still maintaining a lower gear ratio is another. Harold wrote: >>>>For me, smaller (narrower -- not necessarily smaller area) is definitely vastly superior in the air, particularly in winds. And I think that there must be a point where increases in size and/or length no longer result in reduced slippage in the range of power generated by most of us. However, it just hasn't been my experience that this has caught up to me within the paddle size range I use.<<<< Werner Paddles used to correctly (I believe) explain that their narrower "Little Dipper" paddles had a longer edge and the turbulence around that longer edge increased the drag (grip on the water) for more power. If this is true the narrower paddle with the same blade area should be affected more by the wind. Later in the same brochure they said the Little Dipper slipped more in the water so was easier on the joints. I don't think they can have it both ways, it either grips better or it slips more, but not both at the same time. I've tried using a 200cm river paddle but the stroke rate was just too fast (during a fast cruising speed) to be comfortable and maintain coordination when I was tired. Sort of like too low a gear on a bicycle. I once tested the Skinny Dipper, Camano and San Juan paddles in 220 and 230 lengths over a short, closed course by paddling with one after the other at what a perceived-constant rate of output. My findings were that I took 10% fewer strokes as I jumped from blade to blade, going from smallest to largest, and also 10% fewer strokes going from the 220 to the 230 in each blade type. I did not notice the slight increase in stress on my body during any of the tests.<<<<< What increase in stress would there be, you said you were maintaining a perceived constant output. Harold wrote: >>>> However, when talking about differences of 10 cm or so (2-1/2 inches per side) do you think this really matters that much for a touring kayak? I can see the critical nature of length in Rodeo and performance surfing, but not so much in touring. If you start comparing a 220 to the very long 250-ish paddles favored by some in the NW (is this still the trend?) then, yes -- the difference is easy to feel.<<<<< Wouldn't that be 2" per side, 10cm (/2.54) is about 4 inches not 5. Bill Hansen wrote: I know that some very good paddlers like to rotate their wrists, and/or bend their elbows, during the stroke. I've been taught that one should aim for an almost-straight elbow, with just a flick of elbow flexion as the on-water side of the paddle comes out of the water. This "straight" elbow paddling increases potential power and endurance, because one is using back and abdominal muscles, which are much larger than anyone's arm muscles, and this is true whether you're paddling "Greenland-style" or "Euro-style". If we're citing well-know British paddling instructors, Nigel Foster of the BCU makes this point repeatedly during his classes. Nigel is no longer with the BCU. Early in my paddling life I read you should to straighten the upper arm first but in discussing strokes with some Olympic Team members (pre wing) when I was later racing, they told me that they have to work to try to keep from straightening their upper arm too soon. They said it is much easier to push out that arm than to draw the other back so they wanted to save that boost for a time when the blade is pulling more straight back rather than early in the stroke. However, if you're not real strong it might be better to keep your arms straight and use torso rotation. A bent arm might never be able to be straightened out during the torso rotation and might collapse more (rather than straighten out) under the load of a hard stroke. In that case you would be using the energy of your arm muscles up, just trying to hold station, but wouldn't be gaining anything by it and would be better off to straighten both arms to use them like a rope and a ramrod. Didn't someone once say "Different strokes for different folks". James Tibensky wrote: >>>>>Regarding the push on the forward stroke - Hold the paddle as if to make a forward stroke but put the blade into the water about at your knee instead of your ankle. Now push as fast and hard as you can with the top arm but do not move the lower one at all. Use the lower hand as a fulcrum but do not move it. The boat creeps about ten inches forward. Now extend the top arm with the elbow locked straight so that it can only give a little push downward. Then twist your upper body and pull with your lower arm as in a normal stroke. Or do a normal stroke with as little help from the top arm as possible. The boat will jump forward about a boat length. Or more!<<<< This is why it is so much easier to push than to pull (and most would be racers do it too early) you get less out of it. Ellis wrote (among a lot of good stuff): >>>>>Paddle blade feather/bent wrist (over 70 degrees, requires bent wrist, regardless of technique)<<<<< If you release your grip with both hands for a split second as you are raising your "control hand" for the next stroke you will find that the rotating moment you put on the paddle (from pivoting about the elbows) will continue and spin the paddle into the position you want without ever bending the wrists. I often demonstrate this by letting the paddle spin through about 390 degrees before catching it in the paddling position for the next stroke. If I can do that it isn't hard to spin the paddle the 30 degrees I need to go from the 45 degrees naturally put on it during the stroke and the somewhat near 75 degrees I need to get it to. Alternately, I can hold the paddle very loosely as I start the stroke with the blade at the wrong angle and the lower corner of the blade hitting the water first rotates the paddle into position for me. This is one reason I like a very well balanced paddle (that does not have a heavy side that wants to spin the paddle in your hands due to gravity). I use a very loose grip unless the wind is really screaming. With a well balanced and forgiving paddle I don't have to grip it at all to paddle. To demonstrate this I can make a circle with my thumb and forefinger touching tightly at the tips and paddle just fine with the paddle rattling around in both the "A-okay" signs. You don't need to grip hard to push and pull hard. Mike wrote: >>>>>It's too bad that John Winters isn't around these days, cause I'm sure he'd have some interesting comments on this. I've spoken to him a couple of times about paddle design (last time exactly a year ago this coming weekend) and he's pointed out that this notion that the blades "hardly slip" is a misconception.<<<< Yes we've been around this block before and I tried without success to find John's comments on the subject in the old digests (what should I search for that will not give me scores of other hits?) Mike wrote further: >>>>It's interesting that avid paddlers feel that the paddle blades don't slip. I've watched many canoe and kayak paddle strokes trying to understand exactly what's going on. They slip a lot! Paddle with part of the blade above water and watch how far the vortex travels from the blade while it's in the water (don't confuse it with the persistence of the vortex after the stroke is over). That's paddle motion. The problem is that you have a hard time separating the relative motions of the paddle compared to the kayak, you compared to the water and the paddle compared to the water. All other things being equal, I'd not discount the significance of blade size<<<<< Yes, even a big blade moves some through the water (it sort of scoops out a divot with the blade tip moving the most) but the harder the stroke the less difference that blade area difference will make. My point is not that they don't move but that there isn't much difference during a hard stroke as to how much they move so the stroke rate is hardly affected (except the big heavy blade will take longer to get into position for the next stroke). Also the point where the paddle enters and exits the water will be just about the same throughout the stroke. Paddle next to lily pads sometime and notice that the point on the water's surface the shaft penetrates stays in the same place relative to the lily pad. Now they tell me a properly used wing paddle comes out of the water ahead of where it went in to it. That's even better than a good grip on the water for a racer. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have read with amusement the various suppositions that paddles don't "slip" through the water. From this I have ascertained that the people who believe this are mistakenly paddling through concrete. I was also intrigued by the invention of perpetual motion where a correspondent indicated that an upward pull on a bicyle pedal with a 5 pound force will miraculously produce a net driving force of 10 pounds. In furtherance of this stimulating debate, I'll add a brief description of my highly efficient paddle set-up. I use a chunk of cedar log. On one side of the log, I apply an even coating of peanut butter and on the other, I velcro a cat. I simply drop the log and it spontaneously begins to spin furiously since everyone knows that dropped bread always falls peanut butter side down, and cats always land on their feet. The propulsion obtained is effortless. On a more serious note, the paddle length and size is optimized for each person according to how thier muscles work at peak efficiency. If someone has poorly developed quick twitch muscles, short paddle length and small blade size are beneficial. If they have muscle power to spare, larger blade size will be more efficient. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Careful. I believe Dr Inverbon has a patent on the "hovercat", or a cat with buttered toast strapped on its back. You don't want to be infringing on his patents. At 12:59 PM -0400 5/11/01, Charles Herriot wrote: > >In furtherance of this stimulating debate, I'll add a brief description of >my highly efficient paddle set-up. I use a chunk of cedar log. On one side >of the log, I apply an even coating of peanut butter and on the other, I >velcro a cat. I simply drop the log and it spontaneously begins to spin >furiously since everyone knows that dropped bread always falls peanut butter >side down, and cats always land on their feet. The propulsion obtained is >effortless. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Inquiring minds want to know: 1. How long is the cat? 2. Chunky or smooth? <snip> > In furtherance of this stimulating debate, I'll add a brief description of > my highly efficient paddle set-up. I use a chunk of cedar log. On one side > of the log, I apply an even coating of peanut butter and on the other, I > velcro a cat. I simply drop the log and it spontaneously begins to spin > furiously since everyone knows that dropped bread always falls peanut butter > side down, and cats always land on their feet. The propulsion obtained is > effortless. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:23 AM 5/11/01 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: >Harold wrote: > >>>>Just out of curiosity, what stick do you usually use?<<<<< > >A big one, it allows me to speak softly.;-) >I usually paddle with a 220 Std. blade Lightning Awhile back the "which paddle are you using" question came up and there were about 4 people (including myself) that were using this one, however, I've got the "heavy" fiberglass version. I had a chance to buy a carbon fiber version used from someone in r.b.p.t. but I hesitated and someone else got it. I wish I would have bought it then. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/11/01 9:14:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: > Harold wrote: > >>>>Amen, Brother. Though even ten years ago, I could pull my body apart > with a 220 Camano. My body is built more for the 220 Little Dipper. Anything > larger and I have to be careful or I'll strip my gears.<<<< MATT: > Is it so hard to be careful? I've always wondered why not just not yank so > hard at first if using a stiff shaft or other paddle that folks claim tears them up. Again, it's that gear thing. I'll pull as hard as the blade size/slippage allows me to in the quest to get there quickly (sometimes I'm actually goal-oriented). It's not a "yank" in the sense of being abrupt, just a smooth but intense application of power. If the blade slips more, I get a little less drive and thus strain on my muscles and joints, but get quickly through the stroke and on to the next -- lighter but more rapid impulses of power that keep my momentum more constant and provide the same speed with less strain on the arms. At least, that is my understanding and experience of the differences. Matt: > Are you going to trying to say that the wind helps an unfeathered paddler > going down wind? <Enlightened and persuasive argument snipped> The differences are -- as you note, small and disputable, but please don't totally destroy my long-held biases on the strength of good reason, for gosh sakes! :^) Actually, I still feel that the advantages of the feathered paddle (even at 90*) is diminished by my predilection for keeping the paddle blade low (shaft angle at or below a 45* angle to the water surface). The wind gradient is fairly high in the first few feet above the water, and the blade seems to be exposed to a lower wind speed than in a high-bladed power stroke. But keeping a very low angle means you can't bend at the elbow to change blade angle, and low-hand control only works for me if I bend or raise the elbow. This means that wrist bend comes back into play at the low paddle angles and again results in wrist problems. Matt: > Werner Paddles used to correctly (I believe) explain that their narrower > "Little Dipper" paddles had a longer edge and the turbulence around that > longer edge increased the drag (grip on the water) for more power. If this > is true the narrower paddle with the same blade area should be affected more > by the wind. I once read an explanation by an engineer who championed this idea that it is the drag caused by the vortices that really generates our grip on the water, and it fit in with other explanations I'd read about sails and wings and things. He said that if you compared two 100 square-inch blades -- one one-inch wide, the other 10 inches wide, the first would have 202 lineal inches of edge while the second 40 inches of edge, and the first would have a good deal more grip in the water. But it was his contention that (for some reason I don't remember -- probably having to do with the fluid densities), that the aspect ration of the blade had the opposite effect in the wind -- the thinner blade would be pushed around less. Anyone have a hard scientific explanation for this? > Later in the same brochure they said the Little Dipper slipped more in the > water so was easier on the joints. I don't think they can have it both ways, Perhaps they were comparing to the same-length Camano? The Camano has IIRC 15% more blade area, while the LD has more edge length, but the center of force of the Camano would be further away from the fulcrum due to the wider/shorter blade configuration, so It seems reasonable that the Camano might have more drive for the overall length. My own simple tests gave me 10% fewer strokes over a set distance using the Camano vs the same-length LD. But no -- you can't have it both ways unless comparing apples and oranges. Still, I seem to do better with a 230 "Skinny" Dipper (old-style LD) than with a 220 Camano for longer distances, even though my own testing says they are similar in power. Also, I like the 230 "Skinny" Dipper much more than either the 220 or 230 new LD -- possibly because of less twisting moment on the blade. Matt > I've tried using a 200cm river paddle but the stroke rate was just too fast > (during a fast cruising speed) to be comfortable and maintain coordination > when I was tired. Sort of like too low a gear on a bicycle. You do need to get the correct gear. However, just like in bicycling, you can train your muscles to operate at a higher, lower-stress rate than is currently comfortable for you. It takes some work to learn, though. > > I once tested the Skinny Dipper, Camano and San Juan paddles in 220 and 230 > lengths over a short, closed course by paddling with one after the other at > what a perceived-constant rate of output. My findings were that I took 10% > fewer strokes as I jumped from blade to blade, going from smallest to > largest, and also 10% fewer strokes going from the 220 to the 230 in each > blade type. I did not notice the slight increase in stress on my body > during any of the tests.<<<<< Matt: > What increase in stress would there be, you said you were maintaining a > perceived constant output. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. By "constant output" I was referring to heart/lung stress -- the amount of (perceived) work output my body was doing. By "stress on my body" I was referring to the strain on my muscles and joints. I didn't detect the stress during those test, but during paddles exceeding a few miles, the stress on my arms becomes very evident when I maintain the same level of heart/lung stress. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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