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From: Jim <jfarrelly5_at_home.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 08:07:12 -0400
    I want to buy a breathable ( Gortex or similar ) touring jacket.  They
aren't cheap and I don't want to purchase something uncomfortable or
restricting. Is a hooded one necessary? I would prefer one without. I am
somewhat new to touring and paddle almost exclusively on large  reservoirs and
the Savannah river.  Waves aren't  an issue. Just the occasional accidental
dumping.     I am in the process of learning to roll and probably will paddle
9 months of the year. Are some designs more comfortable than others? The
winters are mild here in Augusta GA but it gets cold at times.  Any tips on
cold weather layering would be helpful too.  





 Jim et al





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From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 08:54:05 -0400
Jim wrote:
> 
>     I want to buy a breathable ( Gortex or similar ) touring jacket.  They
> aren't cheap and I don't want to purchase something uncomfortable or
> restricting. Is a hooded one necessary? I would prefer one without. I am
> somewhat new to touring and paddle almost exclusively on large  reservoirs and
> the Savannah river.  Waves aren't  an issue. Just the occasional accidental
> dumping.     I am in the process of learning to roll and probably will paddle
> 9 months of the year. Are some designs more comfortable than others? The
> winters are mild here in Augusta GA but it gets cold at times.  Any tips on
> cold weather layering would be helpful too.

Goretex isn't cheap, but breathable doesn't have to be expensive. Have a
look at
http://www.kayakstore.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/scstore/c-TechnicalClothing.php3?L+scstore+vros1515+1001961557#PaddlingJacket
(Hmm, that link is going to cause problems, better just use
http://www.kayakstore.com/ and go to technical clothing.)

Whetstone is a neighbor of yours (ours) in SC, and they are very
agreeable folk. If you buy it and don't like it, send it back, no
problem.

I usually wear a thermax tank top under a poly longsleeve shirt and/or
some fleece, with either a paddling jacket or drytop over the whole
thing. The rule is wicking (NOT cotton) base layer + fluffy insulating
layer + waterproof shell layer. As it gets colder (note to Northerners,
it never gets _really_ cold around here) you should think about adding a
wetsuit to the mix. Then you can rescue those lost 3 months.

Skip the hood and get a Polartec beanie to wear under your rain hat. The
beanie is also good for cold weather camping.

And visit http://www.atlantakayak.com/ for some touring company. They're
camping on Lake Russell this month.
-- 
Steve
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From: Bob Denton <gulfstream_at_flinet.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 08:58:26 -0400
I have a Gore-Tex Kokatat jacket with wrist seals and a neoprene neck
gasket. The wrist seals are comfortable and keep water out of the
sleeves and the neck, when velcroed tight does a pretty good job of
keeping water out. I use is occasionally in the winter and its
comfortable in the South Florida conditions. 

My concern with a paddling top is it's filling with water after a roll
or wet exit.

cya



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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 07:09:35 -0700
Jim wrote:
> 
>     I want to buy a breathable ( Gortex or similar ) touring jacket.  They
> aren't cheap and I don't want to purchase something uncomfortable or
> restricting. Is a hooded one necessary? 

Steve Cramer covered most of the bases, so I'll just add a couple things.

Kokatat's stuff is apparently more expensive than the Whetstone gear he
references.  Consider, also, that Kokatat has a lifetime guarantee on their
Goretex gear.  If it leaks after a while, send it in for free repairs.  Steve
will probably chime in with the type of guarantee Whetstone has.

In drytops, consider a paddle jacket which has latex seals at the wrists
(essential), and perhaps one with latex at the neck.  Latex at the neck is not
so critical, IMHO, depending on whether you do lots of rolling.  I favor a
neoprene closure that allows for better ventilation, and snugs down pretty good
when you want a better closure.  Not as good as latex, but close.  I've done a
couple hours of surfing in my yak with this and been satisfied.  Maybe a half a
cup of leakage, after being dumped a dozen times.

I like the generous cut of Kokatat's paddle jackets, so that is something else
to check out when you shop.

I agree with Steve re:  headgear.  A hood is very restrictive and can impair
your peripheral vision.  A neoprene beanie or polartec (fleece) hat will keep
your head warm.  Here, we get lots of rain in winter, so most of us wear a
fleece-lined goretex souwester or similar.  The Seattle Sombrero made by OR is
popular, though I favor one made locally called "The Gearhat" (888-432-7428)
that actually uses a goretex clone called Sympatex, and is a little cheaper
than OR's gear.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Will Jennings <will_at_bigwoodenradio.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:52:53 -0500
The Lotus/Patagonia "Stretch Rotator" top also fits Dave K's description,
and these have been on sale at a few online sources....nice fit, and they have
stretch panels in critical flex areas of back-torso-arms.  I got mine in exchange
for goods/services from someone...and so when I went looking for pricing
(a tax thing), some of the on sale sites had them for close to $100.
Lotus/Patagonia Life Time guarantee is pretty much bomb-proof,
and I have had good luck with their gear.

-wjj

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From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:29:16 -0400
Dave Kruger wrote:
> 
> Kokatat's stuff is apparently more expensive than the Whetstone gear he
> references.  Consider, also, that Kokatat has a lifetime guarantee on their
> Goretex gear.  If it leaks after a while, send it in for free repairs.  Steve
> will probably chime in with the type of guarantee Whetstone has.

The  main reason Whetstone is cheaper is that they sell direct from the
factory, so there's no middleman markup. Good for you, not so good for
your Local Boat Shop.

Re warrantees, here's what's on Whetstone's website. I haven't needed it
yet.

<< GUARANTEE
Try it. Use it. Enjoy it. Abuse it. We make it easy to get the most out
of
your gear.
Try it: Buy anything from kayakstore.com and use it. Don't like it? You
can return it to us within 30 days for a refund of the purchase price
and original shipping charges. Call us at 1-888-544-9438 to make
arrangements.
Enjoy it: kayakstore.com unconditionally guarantees all materials and
workmanship for one year from date of purchase for paddles and two
years from date of purchase on all other products. If you have any
problems, call us at 1-888-544-9438 to arrange replacement or repair.
We'll pick up the shipping too.
Abuse it: So it's been a year and a day? And you backed over the
shaft with your truck? Call us anyway. We stand behind our product,
and we know that wear, tear and inadvertent abuse are part of the
game. Let's come up with a solution. Charges will apply, but we'll keep
it reasonable.>>

By way of comparison, Kokatat's warranty says
<<All Kokatat products are fully guaranteed to the original owner
against
  defects in materials and workmanship. Products found to be defective
  will be repaired or replaced at Kokatat's option. Repair due to normal
  wear and tear, accident, abuse, etc. will be made for a reasonable
  charge. The manufacturer specifically disavows any other
representative
  warranty or liability relative to the condition or use of the product.
>>

No mention of a time limit. And of course dry suit gaskets do wear out,
and nobody replaces them for free.

I don't want to make this seem like a competitive thing. I just bought a
Kokatat drysuit, after all.

-- 
Steve
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From: Rev. Bob Carter <revkayak_at_mtaonline.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:10:22 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim <jfarrelly5_at_home.com>
To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>
Date: Monday, October 01, 2001 4:28 AM
Subject: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket


>     Is a hooded one necessary? I would prefer one without.

\

In a warm and dry climate area such as Georgia, no a hood isn't necessary
,but in a wet, windy and cold enviornment such as the Alaska Costal
areas...yes. paddle all day in the rain with the wind blowing and you lose
too much heat from your head and risk hypothermia. Even with a hat of fleese
cap on your bare neck loses heat. ( by the way if your latex neck gasket is
exposed the latex wicks away heat from your neck or wrists so make sure the
paddle jacket has a collar and cuffs over the wrist gaskets)  yes you lose
some vision out the side. In real nasty conditions I wear a small knit hat
under my hood. that way when I need full vision, i.e.to see waves sneaking
up behind me, I can pull the hood off and still retain some warmth.

Bob


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From: Doug Lloyd <dougl_at_islandnet.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:36:22 -0700
Jim wrote:
>
>     I want to buy a breathable ( Gortex or similar ) touring jacket.
They
> aren't cheap and I don't want to purchase something uncomfortable or
> restricting. Is a hooded one necessary?

Steve Cramer covered most of the bases, so I'll just add a couple
things.

Kokatat's stuff is apparently more expensive than the Whetstone gear he
references.  Consider, also, that Kokatat has a lifetime guarantee on
their
Goretex gear.  If it leaks after a while, send it in for free repairs.
Steve
will probably chime in with the type of guarantee Whetstone has.

In drytops, consider a paddle jacket which has latex seals at the wrists

(essential), and perhaps one with latex at the neck.  Latex at the neck
is not
so critical, IMHO, depending on whether you do lots of rolling.  I favor
a
neoprene closure that allows for better ventilation, and snugs down
pretty good
when you want a better closure.  Not as good as latex, but close.  I've
done a
couple hours of surfing in my yak with this and been satisfied.  Maybe a
half a
cup of leakage, after being dumped a dozen times.

I like the generous cut of Kokatat's paddle jackets, so that is
something else
to check out when you shop.

I agree with Steve re:  headgear.  A hood is very restrictive and can
impair
your peripheral vision.  A neoprene beanie or polartec (fleece) hat will
keep
your head warm.  Here, we get lots of rain in winter, so most of us wear
a
fleece-lined goretex souwester or similar.  The Seattle Sombrero made by
OR is
popular, though I favor one made locally called "The Gearhat"
(888-432-7428)
that actually uses a goretex clone called Sympatex, and is a little
cheaper
than OR's gear.

--------

Jim and Dave:

I spent a few days last week paddling around Lasqueti and Jedediah
Island (Strait of Georgia - very exposed paddling), specifically
targeting the trip to coincide with a fast moving low pressure system.
Well, it rain and blew all right, and I experienced complete drytop
failure.  My Navarro drytop is only a couple of years old, not too
heavily used. It is made from Sympatex (breathable fabric, like
Goretex). There appears to be some delamination upon closer inspection.
It rained so hard one day, my arms in the jacket kept filling with
water. I had to keep raising my arms to drain the cold water down the
sides of my torso (burrrr!!!).  I'm not a happy camper. I'll see what
the manufacturer says, but the warranty is normally only one year. I
depend on my gear, especially this product which is heavily advertised
in Canada as one that keeps the water out. If I wanted to be continually
wet, I'd paddle one of Harvey's skin boats  :-)   So, the seals work
great, etc., but the fabric don't. Be careful of imitations, I guess.

As far as a hood, 95% of most paddling is accommodated by hat, as
pointed out. But when the wind is blowing hard in winter, with rain or
sleet, nothing substitutes for a full-on,  yak-jacket hood. That's
gospel. I'm now debating whether to get a Kokatat semi-drytop with hood,
or go for a full drysuit. Regardless, I'll be examining the warranties
closely -- this stuff costs way too much money for the flippant regard
some manufactures have for their end-users.

PS  Dave, ya really need to learn to roll that yak of yours in the surf
:-)

Doug Lloyd - Paddle hard, paddle often!

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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle jacket
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:54:57 -0700
Doug Lloyd wrote:

> Well, it rain and blew all right, and I experienced complete drytop
> failure.  My Navarro drytop is only a couple of years old, not too
> heavily used. It is made from Sympatex (breathable fabric, like
> Goretex). There appears to be some delamination upon closer inspection.
> [snip] Be careful of imitations, I guess.

I have used Sympatex in a rain hat for several years, with good success.

My original Kokatat dry top began to leak at the edges of the seam tape (after
3 seasons of use), and I returned it to them.  They replaced it with a new one
for the cost of seal replacement.  I considered that a good deal, inasmuch as I
got a lot of use out of it.  The replacement is now five years old, and does
not seem to leak.  It is made of slightly heavier Goretex.  However, it is not
as heavy as the stuff Kokatat uses for full dry suits.

I suspect either Sympatex or Goretex will eventually leak wherever there is
repetitive bending at a line, probably owing to breakdown of the PTFE layer.

In Doug's case, the failure is very premature.  I think the manufacturer owes
him.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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