> I'll bet that whining noise I'm hearing is all > the rolling freaks whining about not being able to lay back on the back > deck. Still, I would find the back support welcome for normal paddling. Interestingly enough, I was first inspired 20 years ago to put a hump on my kayak primarily to lean against. Its other advantages were secondary. My early boats with the design, however, all ended up with the hump too far back to actually lean against and I was young enough that I did not really care much one way or another. This is the first one that I can comfortably lean against the hump. Amongst friends I will confess that I occasionally do just that, though I know it is poor form. This kayak rolls exceedingly easily because of the buoyancy of the hump. My 9 yo son can roll it with his hands. For rolling, there are alternate positions that allow rolling to be accomplished quite handily (so to speak). The hump is a disadvantage when trying to get back into the boat from the water, if you do not do a reentry and roll. Most reentry scenarios place the body, at one time or another, low over the back deck which is obviously not possible with this design. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Eddyline Falcon must be a pretty rare bird (as kayaks go) to not get any tippier when flooded with water. Perhaps that is because it has no stability to begin with so adding water doesn't change anything. This is not just idle speculation on my part. Sea Kayaker magazine's review found that the empty Falcon 16 had no inherent stability. The curve started at zero (like all stability curves do) but then went down from there instead of rising into positive territory first as most stability curves do. I guess maybe I will form this working hypothesis. "The less initial stability a hull has the less the stability will be affected by swamping it." Does anyone have any experiences which would tend to cast doubt on it? BTW in Ken's photos I don't think his shoulder is in an especially vulnerable position since his weight is being transferred pretty much straight down his arm to the paddle shaft. A sudden lifting of the paddlefloat would not lift the shoulder joint out of the socket (as it can in a HIGH brace in the rear quadrant) and his arm is free to bend at the elbow if need be to limit the forces pushing on his shoulder. (Note one reason a LOW brace in surf can be dangerous is that if the arm is forced up and back it is difficult to let go of the paddle with that hand position or bend the arm (without also putting more force rotating the shoulder back). I have a friend who tore his rotator cuff just this way.) For those who are confused by not seeing the original, below is the full text of the note I sent to Ken (but not yet to Paddlewise--that he snipped some and responded to on paddlewise). This is the unsnipped version. Ken wrote: >>>>>>Several weeks ago I started a thread on the paddlefloat rescue which elicited a lot of comment. Rex Roberton took an excellent photo of the homemade float which I've posted on our website. (Thanks Rex!) You can see the photo, and also see a description, with photos, of the method I use to do a 30 second rescue. (And no, that doesn't include pumping--I carry the boatfull of water with me as a reminder to be more careful in the future!) The web address is www.kayakfit.com . Scroll down the menu until you find the link to the Paddlefloat Rescue, and click on it.<<<<<< I saw the pictures and directions on your website of the paddle float rescue. Your technique for the untethered paddle paddlefloat rescue looked good. I think it is a valuable method to learn especially for a surf zone rescue where shore is nearby and you are not going to have to pump out (and want to be able to disassemble the boat and paddle at a moments notice before the breaker hits too). However, I'd suggest you go out on a rough day and do this rescue (in a safe place with onshore wind) before you promote it as the "be all, end all" of paddle float rescues (but then don't even pump out the kayak in calm the pool afterwards--and dismiss that lack of finishing the rescue with the joke above). I think you will find that if you fasten the paddle firmly to the back deck you will get the pumping out process done so much quicker (if you can get the spraydeck on and pump out the now very unstable swamped kayak at all without capsizing again) especially in rough water. Rough water, like the kind that probably would contribute to your capsizing, by accident, in the first place. Fastening the paddle to the deck may take a few more seconds but I'll bet you can make up much of that time by climbing up onto the kayak from in front of the paddle and not having to carefully pivot over the paddle while moving one hand and one foot at a time (to keep it held in position while getting your feet around and back into the cockpit--something BTW that is also a lot easier to do in a calm pool than in rough water). I agree that foam floats can save 40 seconds or more of in the water time compared with an empty inflatable paddle float, but personally, I don't want to have to put up with the bulk of the foam during all the times when I don't need it. Have you made your foam float with a way to just grab it off the deck and roll up with when you capsize and fail to roll (so you won't have to exit the cockpit)? It seems if one is going to have to put up with the bulk anyway you should at least be able to use it to do a float roll and save all that pumping time in compensation. Again because I roll pretty reliably and don't want the bulk I don't usually leave my inflatable paddle float partly inflated and easy to grab (and pull free for a float roll) either, but some folks do. I always could leave it inflated, if I wanted to, (like maybe after having already had to do one paddlefloat rescue and not wanting to have to pump out all that water again). You bet then I'll stuff that partly inflated paddle float under my front bungies and be ready to go for a Float Roll if I miss my roll again anytime soon. Yes, I think the (no paddle) Float Roll is definitely a technique worth learning especially so if you are roll challenged. I also think you should be ready to fasten the paddle firmly to your deck should that be the best option (which I think it usually is, and as folks who try to pump or put their spraydeck back on, while bracing at the same time, soon find out). Everybody: Do you have a tether on your paddle float so it can't float or blow away if you drop it? Ken, do you depend on keeping yours secure under deck lines until it has been secured firmly on the paddle blade (rather than use a tether) or do you use both? Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Does anyone have any > experiences which would tend to cast doubt on it? Yes. The Ursa 350. :) This kayak has three features that make it stable when there is water in the center area where the paddler sits. The first is a large amount of flare which comes down into the water as the boat gets heavier, The second is that the rear bulkhead wraps around the paddler so that the kayak retains an air pocket on each side of his/her thighs (a continuation of the rear compartment) - Dare we say built-in "sponson"? The third is that there is a central extension of the paddler compartment that extends back low in the midline, invaginating the posterior compartment. (Designed for holding shoes) When this fills with water it places additional weight in the mid-line with air on each side. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Robert Livingston & Pam Martin" <bearboat2_at_attbi.com> > > Does anyone have any > > experiences which would tend to cast doubt on it? > > Yes. The Ursa 350. :) > > This kayak has three features that make it stable when there is water in > the center area where the paddler sits. [order switched...] > The second is that the rear bulkhead wraps around the paddler so that the > kayak retains an air pocket on each side of his/her thighs (a continuation > of the rear compartment) - Dare we say built-in "sponson"? This can provide additional bouyancy to prevent sinking, but it will not contribute to stability. The water on the outside of the hull doesn't know what's inside the hull. Adding a sponson to the _outside_ of a hull can make a difference. > The first is a large amount of flare which comes down into the water as the > boat gets heavier, > > The third is that there is a central extension of the paddler compartment > that extends back low in the midline, invaginating the posterior > compartment. (Designed for holding shoes) When this fills with water it > places additional weight in the mid-line with air on each side. These two assume there are no free surface effects. I rather doubt that any kayak will be more stable when flooded. If the kayak heels, the water is free to move to a new position. Unless you've got lots of baffling to prevent the water from moving around, you're in trouble. If you've got sufficient baffling, you've got nowhere to sit! I thought we've been over this before? And the conclusion every time is the same: flooding a kayak is a bad thing. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> This can provide additional bouyancy to prevent sinking, but it will not > contribute > to stability. The water on the outside of the hull doesn't know what's inside > the > hull. Adding a sponson to the _outside_ of a hull can make a difference. Speaking of what water "knows". If you have a sponson on the outside of a hull how does the water "know" that it is not the outside of the hull itself? Say you "glue" that sponson to the outside of the hull. How does the water know that this is a sponson on the outside of the hull rather than just a bulge in the contour of the hull. What if you are paddling a Klepper like the old one that I used to have that used an air-bag to tighten the skin and this air bag ran around the hull like a sponson. What does the water think of this? That air bag was "inside" the hull. -------------------- The reason the water "knows" about the built in sponson is that as the partially flooded boat starts to tip the water is restrained from going to the edge of the outside hull "within" the boat. The otherwise freely mobile water is constrained to stay in the center of the boat because the edges are full of air. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Robert Livingston & Pam Martin" <bearboat2_at_attbi.com> > > This can provide additional bouyancy to prevent sinking, but it will not contribute > > to stability. The water on the outside of the hull doesn't know what's inside the > > hull. Adding a sponson to the _outside_ of a hull can make a difference. > > Speaking of what water "knows". > > If you have a sponson on the outside of a hull how does the water "know" > that it is not the outside of the hull itself? In this case, the sponsons effectively change the shape of the hull, creating a hull with greater stability than the original hull. > Say you "glue" that sponson to the outside of the hull. How does the water > know that this is a sponson on the outside of the hull rather than just a > bulge in the contour of the hull. Ditto > What if you are paddling a Klepper like the old one that I used to have that > used an air-bag to tighten the skin and this air bag ran around the hull > like a sponson. What does the water think of this? That air bag was "inside" > the hull. If inflating the sponson changes the shape of the hull, it will have an effect. If not, the water outside won't know the difference. In a rigid hull, what you change inside is irrelevant. > The reason the water "knows" about the built in sponson is that as the > partially flooded boat starts to tip the water is restrained from going to > the edge of the outside hull "within" the boat. The otherwise freely mobile > water is constrained to stay in the center of the boat because the edges are > full of air. Peter Rathman's also pointed this out. It is the exception and is valid. However, this represents a small portion of the total cockpit volume. Stability comes from the center of gravity changing at a slower rate with heel angle than the shift in the center of bouyancy. If the water is free to move, the center of gravity shifts faster than would a dead load. This reduces or eliminates stability. Internal sponsons don't kick in until the heel angle is relatively high and most of the water has already moved. I've only seen the sponsons on a Khat S - I can't imagine that Kleppers are so different that the behavior would be favorable. Also PeterO's comment about his Klepper brings to mind the possibility that in foldables and skin on frame designs, the internal ribs act as baffling and can help. However, these also contribute only a small amount and would only affect the kayak if the water is not deeper than the ribs, keelson etc. If there is a design that significantly changes the behavior of water internally, I'd like to know how it works. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What water knows... I think you all are missing something which can be clearly seen from a proper free body diagram (let's hope I can draw one). Wt-W&Y (wt of water & you & yer stuff) | | | | | | | | V ------------------------------------------------- ^ ^ ^ | | | |<- - - - - - - >| | | dx | | | S_L | S_R (sponson, right) | | | | B_E (bouancy from ends) These forces are all algebraic functions varing in both magnitude and direction realitive to the angle of tip (ex tip gives slosh & shifts center of mass). But, the basic geometry tells us a few things. The difference between interior and exterior sponsons is the distance dx, where the turning moment from force S_L=(in the simplest case) F*dx. The hull stability forces from the hull design are largely made null by the evacution of air from the hull, hence the lack of stability, but now that we are adding more air and particulary adding it in a manner in which the dist dx is set (superior to what a seasock does), we are increasing these previously insignificant forces of stability provided by the hull. Catch 22 is: we know the significant quantity of air in the ends isn't doing much for us, stability wise, so we are going to have to very significantly replace water with air. The design as initially described did not seem to be doing this, so I don't disagree with other posters in the sense that the forces I'm discussing here wouldn't provide much change in stability, in that particular design. But, with a more significant interior sponson it would provide the flooded state stability we are looking for. I think in the future we will see this design incorporated in many boats. With the completion of this post I do hereby declare myself the sovereign pope of the church of the interior sponson. You may not here from me for a while because I'm feeling an almost unquenchable desire to post on rec.boats.paddle. gotta go -- Mike McNally mmcnally3_at_prodigy.net You are capable of planning your future. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> These two assume there are no free surface effects. I rather doubt that any > kayak > will be more stable when flooded. If the kayak heels, the water is free to > move > to a new position. Unless you've got lots of baffling to prevent the water > from moving > around, you're in trouble. If you've got sufficient baffling, you've got > nowhere to sit! If the flare continues to the rear of the boat and to the bow it encompasses the area behind the rear bulkhead and in front of the front bulkhead. Therefore the free surface affects do not cancel out the increased width at the waterline as a markedly flared boat settles down into the water. Only if the boat has no bulkheads is what you say true. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Robert Livingston & Pam Martin" <bearboat2_at_attbi.com> > > These two assume there are no free surface effects. I rather doubt that any kayak > > will be more stable when flooded. If the kayak heels, the water is free to move > > to a new position. Unless you've got lots of baffling to prevent the water from moving > > around, you're in trouble. If you've got sufficient baffling, you've got nowhere to sit! > > If the flare continues to the rear of the boat and to the bow it encompasses > the area behind the rear bulkhead and in front of the front bulkhead. > Therefore the free surface affects do not cancel out the increased width at > the waterline as a markedly flared boat settles down into the water. Only if > the boat has no bulkheads is what you say true. I don't think I'd go that far. The cockpit volume is a significant portion of the total volume of the kayak. It also represents the greatest width in most designs. It is true that the lowering of the CG due to the increased weight will increase the stability of the ends, but this may be offset by the amount of decrease in the cockpit. My experience in flooding kayaks and paddling them suggests the benefit isn't there. I haven't done this with a significantly flared hull, though. My Ellesmere has such a hull; I'll give it a try in the pool this coming Feb. and see. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I thought we've been over this before? And the conclusion every time is the > same: > flooding a kayak is a bad thing. I would not argue this, at least where I paddle. Stability issues aside it is cold. I would not suggest that someone deliberately flood their boat because they are unstable. The issue is when you find yourself with a partially flooded boat just how bad a situation are you in. It varies with the design of the boat. I was just answering Matt's comment that only a boat that is very unstable to start with will not have a marked decrease in stability when flooded. There are boat designs and construction techniques possible that would argue against that statement. These are "atypical" boats. Also if Matt's statement was meant to imply that ALL the compartments of the boat are flooded (i.e. there are no or effectively no bulkheads then it would be hard to argue although a Klepper-like situation with a large internal stiffening airbag would be more stable than one without. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I own a Falcon 16 in light lay-up (34lbs)and have never noticed any stability issues. It may be my weight (180 lbs). It's more stable than my Nordkapp and handles rough water well. The curves seem to be a bit misleading with this boat. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > From: "Peter Rathmann" <prathman_at_attbi.com> > > To the extent that [internal sponsons] keep interior water from sloshing to the > > sides of the boat they will certainly aid the stability relative to a > > boat of the same shape that lacks internal sponsons. > > True, but the effect may be small and only kick in a higher angles of heel. > I'm not sure that the effect would be enough to brag about. The size of the effect would depend on the particular design and could vary from very small to large. Before you argued that there was no effect at all of internal sponsons on stability of a flooded boat and my post was primarily to point out that there was indeed such an effect. > Having > deliberately flooded a couple of kayak in a pool, I know that the reduction > of stability is tremendous and I don't think a sponson's several liters of > volume (compared to the, say 150+ liter cockpit volume) is going to make a > big enough difference. Who said they were only a few liters? This is again a question of the specific design and internal sponsons that occupy all the space on the sides of a wide cockpit could easily constitute a high percentage of the total original (unsponsoned) cockpit volume. > > A snug sea sock may be the alternative. There the volume is constrained and > if the sock can't slide sideways, the water is better constrained. Again, there is no reason why the internal sponsons couldn't occupy all the space that is outside the seasock. I would expect the sponson approach would actually be easier to make in a way that would constrain water movement, but that is also a question of design details. If you believe that a properly fitted sea sock could add to stability in a flooded boat, then similarly fitted internal sponsons/bulkheads/'whatever you want to call them' can certainly do the same thing. As you said before, the water can't tell the difference. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Peter Rathmann" <prathman_at_attbi.com> > water movement, but that is also a question of design details. If you > believe that a properly fitted sea sock could add to stability in a > flooded boat, then similarly fitted internal > sponsons/bulkheads/'whatever you want to call them' can certainly do the > same thing. As you said before, the water can't tell the difference. I wouldn't say that it adds to stability. It minimizes the reduction of stability. That may sound like semantics, but I don't think so. In general, what you say is true, however, I've been thinking in terms of the sponsons that I've been seeing in real kayaks. These tend to be small. I think there's been a difference in perspective between me and others, including yourself. I've been taking a sort-of pragmatic, "is it good enough?" view considering kayaks I've seen or paddled, whereas others have been saying "does it happen at all?" with atypical or theoretical kayaks. We have both come to different conclusions, but to different questions. In the context of the original discussion, I may be off base. In terms of "good enough", sponsons in real kayaks contribute to reserve flotation, not stability. Minimizing the amount of water in the cockpit is a good thing. That's one reason I've replaced the forward bulkhead in my Solstice to one that is further aft. However, the water remains a destabilizing effect. Whether you remove the volume forward or laterally, you still improve the situation. I'm not ready to say that it's enough to make an unstable kayak stable. I've paddled kayaks with negligible reserve stability with only a couple of inches of water inside and both fore and aft compartments empty. In a kayak like that, a sponson or any other trick would have little effect at all. The main reason I moved my Solstice's bulkhead, however, was to reduce the amount of water I'd have to pump and give myself more dry storage forward. My tests since then have confirmed that it doesn't yeild a significant improvement in retaining stability. I can't imagine taking my Ellesmere and adding internal flotation that would have a great effect. There's little room between the seat and the hull on the sides. I could take up volume around my legs, but it would have to be planned with ease of entry and exit in mind. In the end I doubt that a significant improvement in flooded stability would be there. An improvement, but not significant enough for me to bother. If you're talking about a kayak with a 28 inch beam, that would be different, but that's not a typical kayak. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Having started this thread by asking for criticism of my hypothesis, let me say that I agree with everything Robert Livingston had to say in his comments. His Ursa 350 is however a very rare "bear" in the kayak world (but it does point out that my hypothesis needs to be qualified to exclude certain features found on a few kayaks. I had forgotten and not considered some of the unique features of the Ursa 350 when I proposed my hypothesis. While Robert's description was accurate it may have been very hard to picture the kayak he was describing. This isn't your everyday run of the mill looking kayak! Robert, is there somewhere a picture of an Ursa 350 is posted on a website so that everyone can see the rather strange looking kayak we are talking about? If not, I could forward some photos of an unfinished hull (with your approval and if not too many folks ask for them--back channel--so please wait to ask me to send them until Robert responds about a website and permission). Robert designed the Ursa 350 himself using the kayak design program (he also wrote) that can be downloaded from our website. Another feature of the Ursa 350 that is extremely rare, if not unique, is that one person can bail the flooded kayak (when out of the cockpit) by simply rolling the kayak over in the water and spilling the water out of the cockpit (which is suspended above the sea when it is floating upside down--at least when empty--I'm not sure about with a gear load). The 350 stands for 350 centimeters (11' 6") long. As far as I know it is not (yet?) a commercially available kayak (or if it will ever be made available to the public?). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Robert, is there somewhere a picture of an Ursa 350 is posted on a website > so that everyone can see the rather strange looking kayak we are talking > about? http://homepage.mac.com/rlivingston/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:21 AM 12/27/01 -0800, Robert Livingston & Pam Martin wrote: >> Robert, is there somewhere a picture of an Ursa 350 is posted on a website >> so that everyone can see the rather strange looking kayak we are talking >> about? > > >http://homepage.mac.com/rlivingston/ Interesting, and representative of some out of the box thinking from what I can see. Is there a side view online somewhere? -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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