Scott wrote >Also, when a kayak is leaned with the right knee, does >the boat turn because the water on the right side has >a longer path G'day Scott, Just to continue. From your description I could see how the boat might drift to the side due to a "lift" effect similar to an airfoil. However I'm not sure that edging a boat should automatically turn it unless there is also some element of sweep from the paddle. During training exercises we were required to keep a kayak tracking in a straight line while holding it on its edge. The trick being to paddling evenly despite the knee lift. Was never quite sure of the point of the exercise and whenever I use knee lift my stroke seems to automatically bias to one side to assist a turn. Regards, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe" <aldercreek_at_qwest.net> To: <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>; "Paddlewise (E-mail)" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] FW: Why does rocker and carving work? > > Where's Mr. Broze? > I agree... I hope Matt will lend his authoritative voice, even if he has to make it up on the spot... ;) > > According to Matt, Mariner kayaks turn by being edged alone. No initiation > required. Something about the asymmetric shape of the hull. Tilt right and > the hull turns left and visa versa. Most boats I have paddled are more or > less neutral when edged and need some sort of persuasion or initiation to > turn. My Pygmy Arctic Tern will initiate its own carve, provided that I lean forward. I have found carving turns to be quite sensitive to forward/back leans. Sitting in the nuetral position, it needs "help" to initiate the turn. Still, the Tern responds very quick once the turn is initiated and carves beautifully. > Once initiated the hull will build up spin momentum as the water > pressure balance changes. Tilt the hull either to the outside or the inside > of the turn and it will carve and turn faster. We call it YAWHOO, but that's > another story altogether. > So what is YAWHOO?? I have seen this mentioned on your website, but with no explanation. Some kind of mnemonic for kayaking skills, perhaps? > I would think that a neutral hull would be better, so when doing a peel out > into current, a downstream tilt would allow the hull to freely turn > downstream, instead of trying to turn the hull up against the current. > I just don't understand what you mean here. How can the subtle hull design differences that account for the characteristics of a leaned turn have anything to do with eddy turns? If sea kayaking in a place with current, and you happen to cross an eddyline, the only kind of hull that will "freely" turn upstream is one that is not contacting the opposing current. In other words, the hull needs to be completely out of the water. Get ready for a peel-out as soon as the bow touches the oncoming current, unless your angle w.r.t. the eddyline is exceedingly small (at least for sea kayaks... short flat rodeo boats are more forgiving). The drag of the current against the hull will completely dominate over the edged-turn characteristics in calm water. Cheers, kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin writes: >>So what is YAWHOO?? I have seen this mentioned on your website, but with no explanation. Some kind of mnemonic for kayaking skills, perhaps?>> Something that has to do with YAW, what we are discussing. yes, a mnemonic that may go public soon. ;-) > I would think that a neutral hull would be better, so when doing a peel out > into current, a downstream tilt would allow the hull to freely turn > downstream, instead of trying to turn the hull up against the current. > >>I just don't understand what you mean here. How can the subtle hull design differences that account for the characteristics of a leaned turn have anything to do with eddy turns? <<snip>>The drag of the current against the hull will completely dominate over the edged-turn characteristics in calm water.>> I'm being pretty picky here but......if a boat has any tendency to turn when leaned isn't there going to be resistance, while obviously not enough to turn the boat against a current flow, but enough to *not* allow the boat free release to the downstream side. I don't really want my boat to resist an inside edge turn by trying to turn the hull the opposite direction. I'd rather it was neutral so *I* could make the call, inside or outside edge, starboard or port turn. steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Scherrer" <Flatpick_at_teleport.com> << snip >> > I'm being pretty picky here but......if a boat has any tendency to turn when > leaned isn't there going to be resistance, while obviously not enough to > turn the boat against a current flow, but enough to *not* allow the boat > free release to the downstream side. I don't really want my boat to resist > an inside edge turn by trying to turn the hull the opposite direction. I'd > rather it was neutral so *I* could make the call, inside or outside edge, > starboard or port turn. Okay, thanks for clarifying. I think I understand your statement now. You are saying that when edging is constrained to one side only, as when crossing an eddyline, that you still want the option of being able to turn the kayak in the same direction as the side that was edged. Is this correct? My answer is that in this case, the question is moot, because the current on the far side of the eddyline will inherently dominate over the tendency of the boat to turn away from an edge. This is the because the edged-turning momentum is created by the bow moving forward through the water and displacing water preferentially to one side. However when entering current at an angle, the bow is no longer moving forward through the water, and the water pressure will be on the opposite side of the one that causes a carved turn. And thus the turning moment will point downstream, regardless of the YAW... ;) Even very weak currents will dominate, as long as we are talking about sea kayaks. Not even a rudder hard over would any difference here (i'm guessing). But I haven't tested it... Are your comments spoken from experience? Which kayak were you paddling? And by the way... does the HOO stand for what you might say if you forget to yaw when crossing an eddyline... "Hoo boy, this water is COLD" (after you've flipped over). I will probably swing by AC's winter party tonight. Will you be there? Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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