With all the immersion discussion, I have to admit that I support the use of proper clothing, but don't fully understand when you move from a wet suit to a dry suit. The answer is probably an individual thing based on quantity of insulating body fat and so forth, but what's the rule of thumb? At what temperature do you change, and should you still wear the wet suit under the dry suit "just in case"? Rick - Poquoson, VA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote: > > With all the immersion discussion, I have to admit that I support the use of proper clothing, but don't fully understand when you move from a wet suit to a dry suit. The answer is probably an individual thing based on quantity of insulating body fat and so forth, but what's the rule of thumb? When it's cold enough that I don't want to be wet at all, I put on the dry suit. YMMV. Yesterday I was paddling WW canoe in drysuit and fleece sox inside SealSkins inside low paddling shoes, which is about as warm as neoprene sox. I was plenty warm, but my feet were wet and cold. > At what temperature do you change, and should you still wear the wet suit under the dry suit "just in case"? I never wear a wetsuit under a drysuit. Fleece is so much more comfortable and just as warm. I didn't pony up the $$ for GoreTex so that I could swath my bod in neoprene. Is your "just in case" just in case you tear a hole in the drysuit (or forget to close the relief zipper? Do it if you always wear both a belt and suspenders. -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve, Right on. A drysuit keeps you dry and a wetsuit is meant to be wet. Fleece rules. One of the biggest challenges is figuring out which layers are right for the day. The gore is great for the moisture transfer but we all pack old, XXL,coated raincoats to wear over all at put in/ take out and lunch breaks. The evaporative cooling w/gore is substantial. my rule of thumb is October to May is drysuit season for sure. Summer maybe, depends on the paddle. btw, my feet are always warm with fuzzy fleece sox, gore drysuit sox and Chota muckalucks! steve (where the Columbia River today is 44º) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick, the first rule of thumb is that you dress for the water temp, and not the air temp. The drysuit I use has Goretex in it, so it will let moisture (sweat) out both in and out of the water. Even the thickest wetsuit, will only give you about 45 minutes of sustainable warmth in 45 degree water. The basic question is, before you go, if the seas are bad enough that you think you might go for a swim, should you be out in it?? At a price tag of $700 for a drysuit, it may seem costly, but it sure is cheap life insurance. Most importantly, dress for the water, not the air. The other point I would like to make here in reference to the Homer Alaska ordeal, is that the two paddlers made the most basic of mistakes, they let go of their boat and paddle(s). Scott Simpson Anchorage Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:13 AM 2/4/02 -0900, sc wrote: >Rick, the first rule of thumb is that you dress for the water temp, and not >the air temp. I wonder how many people know the water temperature before they launch. I may be a bit of a gear head, but one of the gadgets that I had before I ever started kayaking is a stream thermometer. I'm a flyfisherman, and I tie my own flies. When determining a fly selection for a particular stream it is useful to know the temperature of the water. Typically, mayflies hatch at around 50 degrees. Knowing the water temperature might tell me whether or not I can expect a hatch of mayflies sometime during the day. It could also be useful to know that the water temperature is before choosing what to wear. First you'd want to know the current water temperature. Factor in wind chill. However, this information isn't really useful unless you know at which temperature you're comfortable wearing a wet suit, dry suit, fuzzy rubber, or whatever other paddling garments you happen to own. The only way to really tell that is to actually try wearing each type of garment, jumping in, and spending some time in the water. From those experiments one might determine that once the water is 45 degrees, a wet suit isn't sufficient for a long immersion, a subsequent check of the water temperature could dictate what you might wear on a particular outing. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Try simplifying the process with a breathable dry-suit; you only need to experiment with altering the undergarments depending on conditions and body type. A key advantage to a breathable dry-suit is that they can be comfortable even when the air temperature begins to rise but the water is still cold. One way to analyze the cost is over the life of the garment. You'll never regret the purchase, especially if you do a lot of cold water paddling or live in an area with permanently cold water and months of relatively warm air. And no more stinky neoprene, unless of course you decide to wear a wetsuit underneath. Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> To: <PADDLEWISE_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:28 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Dry Suits / Wet Suits > With all the immersion discussion, I have to admit that I support the use of proper clothing, but don't fully understand when you move from a wet suit to a dry suit. snip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I notice the cooling effect most when on shore with a burped suit; if I break the neck seal and let the suit fill with air, I'm much warmer--my body quickly heats the air space, just remember to burp the suit before getting back in the boat. Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Scherrer" <Flatpick_at_teleport.com> To: "Steve Cramer" <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>; "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dry Suits / Wet Suits > The gore is great for the moisture transfer but we all pack old, > XXL,coated raincoats to wear over all at put in/ take out and lunch breaks. > The evaporative cooling w/gore is substantial. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Great idea for accurate feedback about the adequacy of immersion clothing at different water temperatures. I attended a cold water rescue session yesterday and expected 42 degree water. After rolling, I didn't get the expected ice-cream headache and asked someone what they thought the water temperature was. He said "50 degrees, I measured it with a thermometer before getting in the boat". It definitely helped the immersion clothing feedback loop to have an accurate water temperature reading. Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > I wonder how many people know the water temperature before they launch. > > I may be a bit of a gear head, but one of the gadgets that I had before I > ever started kayaking is a stream thermometer. snip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig writes: > I notice the cooling effect most when on shore with a burped suit; if I > break the neck seal and let the suit fill with air, I'm much warmer-- Funny that remids me of when we have used a raft pump and inflated our drysuits at the take out waiting for a shuttle. It gets friggin' hot when they're full of air and way fun to got bobbing down the river! steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A small kitchen thermometer works good. I keep it in my deck bag. steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<<I have to admit that I support the use of proper clothing, but don't fully understand when you move from a wet suit to a dry suit. >> I'm glad Rick asked this question as I was under the impression that you moved from a WS to a DS when you had the EXTRA $400-500 dollars, having first shelled out the $20-300 (?) for the wet suit. sandy kramer who can fortunately postpone any worries about this since the ex suggested we postpone the AK cruise (they can't blame me this time). My available vacation time and funds were amenable to this change. Plus, he's buying a pop-up trailer and we will now have airconditioning....... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gypsykayak_at_aol.com wrote: > > <<I have to admit that I support the use of proper clothing, but don't fully understand when you move from a wet suit to a dry suit. >> > > I'm glad Rick asked this question as I was under the impression that you moved from > a WS to a DS when you had the EXTRA $400-500 dollars, having first shelled out the > $20-300 (?) for the wet suit. I used to think pretty much the same way. Understand that I used to paddle WW in North Georgia/NC in the winter (it ain't Minnesota, but < 40 degree air and < 50 degree water is not unusual in the mountains) dressed in one layer of poly and nylon paddlejacket and pants. But a couple of things have changed my POV. 1. I've got more money tied up in boats than clothes. With a GoreTex drysuit, I'm willing to paddle when I've got the opportunity to do so, not just when the weather is nice. I don't let a $2K boat sit idle for want of a $300 suit (I paid $250 for my GT DS, used). 2. Wayne Horodowich says in his rescue tape(s) "Base your equipment decisions on utility, durability, safety, and maybe style. Price doesn't enter into it; it's your life we're talking about." 3. OK, I'll admit our family income is more than when I started boating. -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The original poster posed an "either / or" situation and got good answers for that rubric. If you only own a farmer john (and feel put off by the $700 - $800 for a dry suit), then consider adding a serious breathable drytop (about $200 for a good one). This allows you to ramp up the insulation under the drytop as conditions get colder, and you can achieve a broader range by increasing the insulating value of your head covering (neoprene helmet). I paddled for years on the Lower Columbia with an arrangement like this, mainly winters, but now and then in the "summer" and always felt I had enough time to re-enter my boat. Survival time in the water would not have been equivalent to two layers of fleece under a dry suit, however. A year ago I sprung for a full-on Goretex dry suit, and wondered why I had not done that early on ... until I remembered that my other rig worked, but was not as comfy. Dry and warm is much nicer than wet and warm, especially if you are on a multiday tour. Benchmark: Steve Scherrer's 44 F is a pretty "standard" temp for water on the Columbia in the winter. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: A key advantage to a breathable dry-suit is that they can be comfortable even when the air temperature begins to rise but the water is still cold. I'd like to add two things: 1-it is uncomfortable paddling 15-20 miles in warm weather w/ an oxford nylon drysuit. One sweats prodigously and cools down quicker than with goretex. Not to mention the "stinky paddler syndrome" factor. 2-oxford nylon, by virtue of its coating, takes longer to put on than goretex. The coating hangs up easily on nearly all synthetic clothes I've tried and it takes a while to get it on and sealed up. Unless that extra $200.00 means food for the next month, save up and buy goretex. du franks (everything costs more in france)-Rob g *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddling in Scottish waters means permanently chilly water. I use a wetsuit, with suitable overlayers as necessary. I have contemplated a drysuit, but I have two problems with them: one, I am extremely proficient at destroying clothes, and as I understand it, once a drysuit is torn or leaks, it becomes virtually useless (until you repair it of course). Second, and more perversely perhaps, I hate the feeling of constriction around my neck from the latex seal. Is that something you can get used to, I wonder? On the issue of goretex, I have heard that in salt water goretex quickly stops being breathable, thereby negating much of its advantage over other, cheaper materials: anyone able to throw some light on this? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Reiter" <reiter_at_fodderty.u-net.com> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dry Suits / Wet Suits > I have contemplated a > drysuit, but I have two problems with them: one, I am extremely proficient > at destroying clothes, and as I understand it, once a drysuit is torn or > leaks, it becomes virtually useless (until you repair it of course). A torn dry-suit is not only useless but potentially deadly. I wear a dry-suit with reinforcements in all critical areas and have found it extremely durable. There are people who wear a wet-suit as a dry-suit under garment because of this concern. > Second, and more perversely perhaps, I hate the feeling of constriction > around my neck from the latex seal. Is that something you can get used to, > I wonder? If necessary, you can trim or stretch gaskets to reduce constriction, although the are designed "to fit snug". See: http://www.kokatat.com/instruction2g1.htm for tips on trimming or stretching gaskets. > On the issue of goretex, I have heard that in salt water goretex quickly > stops being breathable, thereby negating much of its advantage over other, > cheaper materials: anyone able to throw some light on this? Try this link: http://129.33.97.28/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentGView?storeId=10001&cat alogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=10408 According to the Gore site, this material can breath under-water--this claim is always good for a round of arguments from the pseudo-scientists and scientists alike. I wear a suit with this material and can attest to the high breathability, even in surf sessions with frequent splashing and upper body immersions and while body surfing. No matter what theoretical arguments you hear, nothing can demonstrate the effectiveness and comfort of a breathable dry-suit like actually paddling while wearing one. Hope this helps, Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here is my $.02 to the drysuit price question. The first cold morning you wake up in camp and instead of putting on a frozen solid wetsuit, slip some fleece on over your pajamas and put on a drysuit any costs associated with it are forgotten. I got mine about six years ago. I take care of it and it looks almost new - even after lots of usage. Neoprene is great, the first day. If you are on an extended trip man is that stuff stinky cold and uncomfortable. Interestingly, I think I have the only drysuit in the Netherlands. People are quite intrigued by it here. In Minnesota, in the cold months you rarely see a person paddling without one, seems to be the first thing people buy their second or third season paddling. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Reiter wrote: > On the issue of goretex, I have heard that in salt water goretex quickly > stops being breathable, thereby negating much of its advantage over other, > cheaper materials: anyone able to throw some light on this? I have never experienced this. Kokatat recommends rinsing the Goretex daily while touring on salt water, to avoid accumulation of salt. Rinse in fresh if available, but salt water is OK. I think the notion that salt water clogs Goretex may be an urban myth ... dating back to some statements John Dowd made in his tome. Could be John was dealing with an earlier version of Goretex. I know the Goretex parka I purchased in 1979 was toast, pretty quick. That would have been Goretex I, and I think Gore is on Goretex IX or so, by now. OTOH, if there is something IN the salt water, THAT might clog the Goretex. Algae scum is a problem on the Columbia, at times ... [back, you scum!]. Aside: Revivex fixes my Goretex when it loses its DWR coating. Thanks to Dan Hagen for promoting its regular use. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
for info' on Goretex and maintenance of same see: <http:// www.paddles.com/users/wildcamp/goretex.html> -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Flory, San Jose, CA. daflory_at_pacbell.net Go Sea Kayaking!! (C)2002 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Speak softly and study Aikido, then you won't need a big stick. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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