Chuck, First of all I'm glad no one was seriously injured your recent mishap. The old Toyota may be another story! >From your initial description it did not sound like a severe impact so I was surprised to hear the roof racks separated from the car roof (dare we mention any names?). That fact alone should give some folks a clue as to the potential dangers of not using front and rear tie-downs. I was going to say that the size and construction material of the boat could determine if tie-downs should be used but, that would be irrelevant if the roof racks fail! Personally, I always use two 1" straps to attach the boat to the rack and 2 more, front and rear, hooked to the bumpers. I have a glass boat and part of my rationale for using 4 straps is to distribute the forces (stresses) over more points on the boat. Your story reinforces my thinking that bow and stern tie-downs are absolutely necessary. Ron Dunnington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This accident makes me very worried about my brand-new Yakima roofrack. It turns out that I cannot tie down the boat to the bumper. I bought the ties with very nice hooks but my car has nothing I could tie the boat to! There are two hooks that I can screw into the bumper but they are both on the right side of the car and put one-sided stress force on the boat. Any ideas how I can solve that problem? Btw, when I bought the car, I did not have a boat yet and I had never strapped a boat to a car before:( Heike Personally, I always use two 1" straps to attach the boat to the rack and 2 more, front and rear, hooked to the bumpers. I have a glass *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> This accident makes me very worried about my brand-new Yakima > roofrack. It turns out that I cannot tie down the boat to > the bumper. I bought the ties with very nice hooks but my > car has nothing I could tie the boat to! There are two hooks > that I can screw into the bumper but they are both on the > right side of the car and put one-sided stress force on the > boat. Any ideas how I can solve that problem? If your car has tie-down eyelets (under the car, usually one at each corner, for tying the car onto a flat-bed tow truck), you can use those. One approach is to start with a piece of rope a bit longer than the car is wide. Tie an S-hook or carabiner at each end. Take a second piece of rope long enough to reach from the bumper up to the kayak. Form a loop in one end of it (e.g., with a bowline) and thread the first piece of rope through the loop. To tie down the boat, hook the ends of the first piece of rope to the eyelets at the front corners of the car. Move the loop in the second piece of rope to the middle of the car and tie down the boat. This usually works only at the front of the car -- the exhaust pipe gets in the way at the rear. David Kiewit 5901 3rd St. South www.patent-faq.com St. Petersburg FL 33705 727 866 0669 voice/fax *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Not familiar with your car's chassis, but this is what I do on my minivan, which has such crummy bumpers I would never consider relying on them for this purpose. By lying on your back under the front and rear bumpers you should be able to find holes in the undercarriage or other obvious points of attachment for a line. You could either tie your lines directly into those places or install a small grab loop (e.g., made out of webbing) for easier attachment to the main tie line. You may even be able to fit a carabiner: that's best of all. Make sure to inspect the lines after a long trip to see whether they're getting worn with friction or engine/exhaust heat. I also use two relatively short tie lines at each of the bow and stern, rather than one lone line: better redundancy. TFJ -------------- Heike wrote: "This accident makes me very worried about my brand-new Yakima roofrack. It turns out that I cannot tie down the boat to the bumper. I bought the ties with very nice hooks but my car has nothing I could tie the boat to! There are two hooks that I can screw into the bumper but they are both on the right side of the car and put one-sided stress force on the boat. Any ideas how I can solve that problem? Btw, when I bought the car, I did not have a boat yet and I had never strapped a boat to a car before:(" ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce, Thomas F." <TJoyce_at_bellboyd.com> On my (not very gas guzzling) pickup, I use 2 tie downs to the front chassis undeneath the bumper, 2 at the rear, attached to the boat FORWARD of the attachment point at the rear of the car and to ratchet tightening straps in the middle. The front tiedowns are to restrain the bow of the boat against wind slipstream from the car (which is upwards at this point) and against a rear end shunt. The rear tiedowns are attached to the boat on the lifeline fittings on each side. I couldn't use the lifting handle which is stronger because it overhangs the rear of the car and would have the wrong effect. Interestingly, you can always find attachments on the car's chassis; ALL cars are pre-equipped at the rear for a towbar and as such have threaded holes, just add eye bolts. At the front many modern cars do not have permanent tow rings, but a system that screws into a hidden hatch in the bumper. Check your car's handbook. Otherwise you may find redundant holes or hooks that accept a Karabiner, or find non structural bolts that can be replaced, safely, by an eye bolt. If you are not 200% sure of which ones, go ask your garage, they'll be able to help. Last idea, if you lift the bonnet (hood) of the car, you may find a solid strengtheners between the radiator and the front grille. You can pass a webbing strap around the strengtheners and feed it out through the front grille. With most modern cars, including my pickup, the bumper bars are more for show than strength so forget 'em. Kevin. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello! We've had this discussion before on the list so you may be able to find more info in the archieves. One solution is to tie down under the hood and trunk. You can get some webbing and either bolt or tie it to something solid under the hood and trunk, then just run the tie-downs through that. With all the discussion of Yakima racks, it's interesting to note that they are a distinctly North American convienince. Here in Holland, the typical rack seems to consist of nothing more than some scraps of tin and garden hose that might survive impact with a small bird or large insect, definately not a Grand Cherokee. Well, at least they're cheap. -Patrick At Monday, 22 April 2002, Heike_Robinson_at_lakeland.cc.oh.us wrote: >This accident makes me very worried about my brand-new Yakima roofrack. It >turns out that I cannot tie down the boat to the bumper. I bought the >ties with >very nice hooks but my car has nothing I could tie the boat to! [SNIP] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I may have missed an analysis, such as I briefly outline below, in earlier posts. If so, hit delete now. But it seems to me that in the pursuit of this thread we may have lost sight of what tiedowns actually can and cannot do -- or prevent. Bow and stern tiedowns have to oppose forces in three general directions (I would hate to say planes since the load direction shifts as the boat starts to move ...): 1 - side to side (let that include yaw, as well as lateral translation) 2 - forward and aft 3 - up and down (both heave and pitch) Depending on the length of your car relative to the length of the boat, the angle of tiedowns may be more or less well suited to oppose forces in any of these directions. 1 - To obtain any semblance of preventing side-to-side motion, you really need at least split tiedowns each at bow and stern, four lines, two each running from the respective ends of the boat to the respective corners of the car ... IF you can find useful attachment points there. The angles between the lines and the forces involved keep this from being an optimum solution, however. 2 - Tiedowns are not well suited on the whole to preventing forward and aft motion due to the often near right-angles between the lines (more or less vertical) and the forces on the boat (more or less horizontal). Paddlers familiar with yachts and ocean going vessels tying up to a dock, may have observed the use of "spring lines." These lines run from the bow of the vessel to a cleat or other attachment point on shore near the stern of the boat and respectively from the stern boat to a point on shore near the bow. Such a set up prevents forward and aft motion more effectively than bow and stern lines by decreasing the angle between the forces and the lines. In a roofrack tiedown application such spring lines would obviously run from the rear of the car over the roof to the bow and vice versa. That's pretty much the only way to prevent boats shooting off the top of the rack (forward or rearward). 3 - Single line front and rear tiedowns are best suited to prevent up and down movement of the boat only. General - For all bow and stern tiedown situations I would ALWAYS run two straps of some kind around the hull of the boat, one each near the bow and the stern, and NEVER rely on the grab handles, lifelines or other weaker boat fittings. Of course I then run a line forward and aft to connect these two loops to stop then slipping off the boat! My conclusion to all of the above? I dread the day on which I have to start transporting boats on a roof rack that's not securely bolted to a solid raingutter like that one on my old Volvo station wagon! That would be the day I have to start creating the spider's web of tiedowns, straps and connecting lines described above, which I may then find myself truly advocating. Until then I'll continue to rely primarily on good quality rope ties from one end of each roofrack bar to the other, hauled down tight with a truckers hitch. I will sometimes rig a bow preventer to limit the extremes of any possibly forward and aft motion (i.e., the boat might in the most extreme case somersault if I were to hit someone from behind and the forces rip off the rack, car raingutters and all, but it will not shoot through the rear window of the impacted vehicle). But then again I may have a slight advantage in my approach since I almost exclusively strap on relatively flexible folding boats, which by the tying down process become almost an integral part of the roof rack system through (elastic!) deformation and friction ... I could not vouch for hardshells under similar circumstances. And thus concludes another veiled pitch for the concept of folding boats ... :-) (Tongue now back out of cheek!) Best regards, Ralph Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <FoldingBoats_at_aol.com> Just to add a remark to Ralph's comments from the other Ralph. > General - For all bow and stern tiedown situations I would ALWAYS run two > straps of some kind around the hull of the boat, one each near the bow and > the stern, and NEVER rely on the grab handles, lifelines or other weaker boat > fittings. I make use of the grab handles but not as my tiedown anchor but rather as a stopper. Let me explain. I tie the line around the bow (for example) end of the boat in a loop that runs through the grab handle and back down to form a lasso grip (various ways of doing this). The grab handle simply acts a stopper to prevent the bumper line lasso from slipping off the front of the bow or shifting back toward the cockpit. There is no real stress on the grab handle. > But then again I may have a slight advantage in my approach since I almost > exclusively strap on relatively flexible folding boats, which by the tying > down process become almost an integral part of the roof rack system through > (elastic!) deformation and friction ... I could not vouch for hardshells > under similar circumstances. And thus concludes another veiled pitch for the > concept of folding boats ... Or just put the folded kayaks inside your trunk and not worry about ropes vs. webbing, bow and stern tiedowns, flying roof racks, thieves, etc. We Ralphs are shameless in our slipping in the word of the Gospel According to Hans Klepper Et Al. :-) ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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