Peter, You seem to be asking some legitimate questions here, and you are presenting them in a civil tone, so I suppose the least I can do is answer them for you. When I am kayak surfing I leave my pfd on the beach. I grew up body surfing the waves of Southern California, and even though I never come out of my boat, if it should someday happen I can assure you that I (not necessarily you, or anyone else you understand) would be MUCH more comfortable swimming in large gnarly surf without a pfd on then I would be with one. As far as touring goes, in the past I usually kept my pfd in the cockpit under my legs. These days I have switched to paddling a CLC Northbay with an ocean cockpit and a mere 20" beam, so I have very little (read that "none") room in my cockpit for anything at all. I now must resort to carrying safety items, food and water and such in a deck bag. And yes, I wear my pfd simply because I haven't any place else to put it. So all of this noise I am making on the Paddlewise list is really more out of principle then practice :-) While I cannot show you that wearing your pfd is unnecessary, neither can you show me that wearing one is! The difference here is that I am not asking you to not wear one. You (or at least the others) on the other hand are insisting that I do! Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott: One more point in favour of a PFD; it feels good as body armour in surf. No doubt you have had the experience, some time, of another boat surfing towards you and threatening impalement. Those stitch and glue boats have particularly sharp bows. I always think they should be rounded off a little. PT, Oz. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/22/2002 8:15:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au writes: > If you take a PFD, but don't wear it all the time, where do you store the > thing meanwhile? I think it's easiest to wear it. > Same with a helmet. I wouldn't mind the option of taking one and putting it > on when surfing, or near rocks etc, but where can you stow it? I don't want > a helmet on deck, and I don't want to wear it all the time. > So what you're saying is that always wearing your pfd is simply a matter of convenience? My beef is with these people who say "if you don't wear your pfd then you can't paddle with me." We are required by law to have a pfd in our boats when we are on the water. OK, I can do that. We ARE NOT required by law to be wearing them for the very simple reason that there is NO COMPELLING EVIDENCE to conclude that we are any safer while wearing our pfd's then we are while not wearing them. I absolutely concede that pfd's have saved lives. So have tow ropes, EPIRB's, paddlefloats, VHS radios, cell phones, flares, etc.. But how many of you require that all of this various safety and rescue equipment be present in an individuals boat before they can join your group? The trend these days seems to be that one MUST WEAR their pfd in order to participate. WHY? I am willing to learn. I fully accept the possibility that I might be wrong here. So educate me. Whether or not I wear my pfd should be MY CHOICE! Not yours. If you could show me that wearing a pfd has a significant impact in a sea kayakers safety then I would be more then willing to reconsider my position here. But I just don't see it! You folks piss and moan about the French kayaking regulations. I'm sure that they think that they are doing the right thing in regard to public safety as well. Isn't requiring me to wear my pfd in order to paddle with you right along the same lines as the French stomping on my rights? Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
So what you're saying is that always wearing your pfd is simply a = matter of convenience? Well, no. Convenience is part of it. I actually meant this as a real = question to you. If you concede that a PFD is useful sometimes, and you = want to have it available at those times, but take it off at other = times, where the hell does the thing go? Paul Caffyn, when he paddled = around Australia, seemed to have kept his PFD in a large net deck bag = for a lot of the time. I wear mine always, as it happens. It's a habit, like putting on the = seatbelt before I drive off. I've just read "Extreme Sea Kayaking" by Eric Soares and Michael = Powers. One of the authors, I forget which, agrees with you, on the = basis that a PFD might prevent swimming under waves in large surf. I = think Matt Broze got it right here, saying that it's easier to take the = PFD off in the water, than to put it on.=20 When would you take it off? Some extreme situations may require it, = but I think I'd rather keep mine on and body surf than take it off and = dive. My beef is with these people who say "if you don't wear your pfd = then you can't paddle with me." I've never had the problem, as everyone here just wears them. I = think it's important on club paddles when inexperienced people turn up, = to make an unarguable rule. Whether very skilled, experienced paddlers = in extreme situations might prefer no PFD has nothing to do with the = average punter. Whether or not I wear my pfd should be MY CHOICE! Not yours.=20 Maybe, just as it's my choice if I paddle with you or not. If I = perceive that you'll be more difficult to rescue, or your attitude to = safety is to drown while arguing that this can't be happening to you, I = might freely choose not to be there. If I thought that you were highly = skilled and the conditions were tame enough, I probably would paddle = with you, as long as you didn't start this debate.=20 If you could show me that wearing a pfd has a significant impact in = a sea kayakers safety then I would be more then willing to reconsider my = position here.=20 Just from rescue practicing, "Hand of God" rescues are done by = grabbing the paddler's PFD shoulder strap. Re-entering a boat in an = assisted rescue seems to be easier when floating higher. Re-enter and = roll likewise. The floatation of the buoyancy vest is probably assisting = in rolling. You last longer in the water with less energy expended if = the PFD helps you float. Overall, I think the PFD makes me safer, even = leaving aside long swims and cold water. If you could show me that the = precaution of wearing a PFD is unnecessary, I would also be prepared to = reconsider whether I wear one. And the pockets! Where else would I put = Mars Bar wrappers? PT, Melbourne, Oz. [demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Tiki.gif] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with Peter, This discussion has been going around with some arguments repeated. My personal opinion goes in favour of wearing the PFD always based on personal experience. I always, always wear the PFD. Even when I was practicing rolls in my 11 by 11 foot patio swimming pool. Just the habit of having always similar conditions, until one day I was with some of my electrical business customers and they wanted to try my kayak. I lent them my PFD, since they had never been in a kayak, and we paddled short distances in a small estuary. Then I decided to show them how one can rescue himself and I turned over and started trying to place the paddlefloat. Suddenly I found myself swallowing water and doing the maneuvers that I am very confident with in a clumsy manner. I realized I didnīt have the extra flotation of the PFD that keeps my head above the water, while I keep my legs inside the cockpit of the upside down kayak, floating easily without loosing kayak or paddle. I realized that it is so much easier to help others and help yourself with that free help of the PFD. I have found also that trouble comes when you less expect it, when all conditions seem under control, when everybody claims that they are capable of handling the conditions. Under those circumstances I donīt feel that it is fair to risk oneself to rescue somebody who is running out of breath because he can not reenter his kayak (I have seen it happen) but is sinking because he refused to wear a PFD. Even if it is not fair, one must go and help the guy, so I think it is a matter of good team courtesy to be prepared to give all others the minimum trouble possible in case of being in trouble. Finally, having the PFD helps in many aspects like giving added flotation for rolls. Being the body closer to the surface reduces the rolling effort, and when you need to roll, there is no time for considerations like putting on the PFD under the water. Rafael el cayuco chief www.mayanseas.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:58:33PM -0400, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > Whether or not I wear my pfd should be MY CHOICE! Yes, in a perfect world, it should and it would be. But we don't live there, for two reasons: first, safety issues are almost never quite so cut-and-dry, and second, we live in a complex legal climate. I'll leave that second point alone for now and talk about the first: It's a matter of degree, and a matter of judgement. My judgement is that there's no downside to wearing one 100% of the time, so that's what I do, and what I encourage others to do. It's a matter of risk management, which in turn is a matter of the analysis of a complex set of overlapping probabilities. Having read extensively (e.g. Charlie Walbridge's River Safety Task Force reports, many years of mailing lists and Usenet and so on) and had my own experiences, some good, some bad, I've made a judgement call that I'm comfortable with. YMMV. It's also a matter of impact on others: I don't want to see my paddling partners risk their lives coming after me because I was stupid...so I try hard not to be stupid [1]. I also don't want to see those who will come after me barred from my favorite rivers because I did something foolish. And more selfishly, I really don't want to have to go after someone who has done something stupid -- I have and I will, but I don't like it much. > Isn't requiring me to wear my pfd in order to paddle > with you right along the same lines as the French stomping on my rights? Perhaps. But consider, for example, that in West Virginia, it is a state law that one must wear a PFD at all times while on the river and must wear a helmet in anything rated above class III. Why? Well, because, among other things, those people who work in the ERs, police offices, park service, etc., would really prefer not to have to spend their time engaged in dangerous rescue/recovery operations, and their judgement -- which I personally think is sound -- is that these regulations mitigate some portion of the risk. Not all: they're not a panacea, and they're not designed to be. They're designed to reduce risk, not eliminate it. They seem to work, and while some folks may think it's onerous to be required to wear a PFD and a helmet, I think running something like the Upper Gauley without both would be extremely dangerous, bordering on suicidal. It's not perfect: people still die there, including ones wearing PFDs and helmets. But having spent summer vacations paddling there for over 20 years, I have no doubt whatsoever that the toll would be MUCH higher were it not for those regulations. [2] ---Rsk [1] That doesn't just include wearing a PFD. That includes not running rivers I'm unprepared for, or walking big nasty drops if I'm having an off day, or taking the sneak route instead of the hero route if I'm getting tired and so on. All of these are risk management. None are guarantees. [2] I've been running the Lehigh in PA for about ten years. Never so much as flipped, let alone come out of my boat. But I did last fall: I was run over by a raft while trying to rescue to a kayaker who'd flipped and swam. I got my butt kicked, sandwiched between the raft and the river bottom while going through a class II-III drop. The PFD and helmet spared me some of the beating, so even though in all those years I'd never really needed them before, I was really glad I had them. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Isn't requiring me to wear my pfd in order to paddle with you right >along the same lines as the French stomping on my rights? If you're not going to cause me any undue harm in not wearing your PFD, I could care less. If we were to go paddling tomorrow, I would want to see you perform a self-rescue without your PFD in rough water. If you had no problems, I wouldn't give it another thought. If you were going on a club trip with me tomorrow, I would insist that you wear one as a role model. Just because you're a skilled paddler doesn't mean that a person emulating you by not wearing a PFD is as skilled. If you always paddle solo or with trusted (and skilled) companions, then who cares? Shawn Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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