I had a situation the other day on a club trip organized by several members. On Good Friday a group of paddlers decided to head out to the Sooke Basin, west of Victoria,B.C. I got their late due to traffic and found that that group of what I thought would be five or six was a dozen. Many were already in the water when I arrived and ready to go, so I hurried and got my boat off and mentioned to several paddlers that I would catch up. In hindsight that was my first mistake. As I was getting into my boat it looked as if the group was splitting into two groups but then they formed up again at a point on the other side of the basin. So I paddled hard to get across the bay to catch up to them, ten minutes later I did. For a while I paddled with people at the back of the group, the whole group was spread over a half a mile. As I was catching my breath and getting a drink the group I was with kept going, it was then I started noticing problems with my foot peg(still working out the kinks in my new boat). By this time the last of the group was getting too far ahead to hear me that I was going to land and fix my boat. I landed and adjusted the foot peg, when I finished there wasn't anyone in sight. Yup!, they kept on paddling..... Getting to the put-in late I didn't even know who the trip leader was or if there even was one. So this started me thinking what was going on, I decided to wait and see if anyone would come back and see if I needed any help....they didn't. By that time 15-20 minutes had passed by, I then decided not to try and catch up with the group. I learned later that they felt I was competent enough to look after myself so they kept going. I guess they didn't realize that accidents can happen to any one! As it turned out, they did notice me gone but thought I was playing in current, and that I was capable of looking after myself so they kept on. Being in the mood I was in then, I decided to head off on my own which ended up being much safer than continuing and had a great paddle. The weather that day was a mixture of everything and gave me an opportunity to try out various situations in my new boat. Did I mention that I had just bought a new kayak? I ended up practicing in the current off Billings Spit for a time before gradually heading back to the put-in on my own and exploring the lower end of the Sooke River. All in all for me, the day was a success, I was able to really put my new kayak through its paces through current, wind and waves. I had fun! Once I got back to the put-in several members of the group arrived back at the same time via car. Apparently they had hitch hiked from Coopers Cove at the other end of the basin because the wind was too strong for them to paddle back. I had found out from them, the group kept exploring the shoreline for awhile before changing their direction cross the widest part of the Sooke Basin. At this time the wind was starting to blow over 30 knots and the topography of the basin makes it very open to the wind. Many didn't really have a clue of what was going on, there was no trip leader. To add insult to injury, I had asked them if there was anyone really leading the group, their reply, "No!". Their consensus was, "Usually it is the one who shouts the loudest leads!" I asked them why didn't they backtrack closer to Billings Spit where the wind was not as strong and had more protection from the full force of the wind before cutting across? They replied that my idea would have been smarter, but neither of them new any better or had even paddled in the Sooke Basin. Once I got home I questioned the club instructor, he mentioned that there shouldn't be groups that large and trip leaders are not essential for situations like that. My question to everyone is. Should I have continued and caught up to the group? Or was I right in heading off in my own direction? I would also like to mention that I had a cell phone and VHF with me and I did call home with my change of plans. Bye for now. Kirby Stevens *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirby wrote, "I had a situation the other day on a club trip organized by several members. > > On Good Friday a group of paddlers decided to head out to the Sooke Basin, west of Victoria,B.C....." Was this a VCKC trip or a Network Paddle? I think the group dynamics of the VCKC paddles is generally quite good. There have been some VCKC paddles that I've been on were questionable leadership decisions have been made, but this does not happen very often. As for the Network Paddles, I avoid them. Competency is not required or even encouraged on these paddles. The last one I was on left from Island View Beach to circumnavigate James Island. While getting ready to launch one Network Member asked me if I'd be wearing a spray skirt! Another simply packed her PFD on the back of her kayak. Half way through the paddle it blew off and she blissfully continued to paddle unaware that the PFD was gone. A VCKC member retrieved it for her. I tried to take a head count before we left, initially I counted 21 paddlers. At lunch we had 23 and when we landed at the end there were 19. No one was concerned or cared. I resolved never to paddle with the Network again - or at least until some standards are implimented. I also think we should never leave the beach with such large groups unless it's been explained to everyone just what the plan is. I am not trying to slag the Network paddle group. I'm just recalling my experience and would like to encourage the group to address some of these issues. I know the Network is an informal association, but I think they should adopt a more prudent attitude. Group dynamics are not easy to manage and even the most cautious VCKC practices are sometimes ignored - but at least we endeavor to practice leadership and set out to manage the group when we paddle. Gordin Warner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think Kirby didn't really made a decision to part from the group: The group parted from him. If I were in his shoes (boat) I would NOT have tried to catch up. I would have been steaming with anger. I would have told them on the first chance that I would NEVER paddle with them again. Groups are supposed to be safer then solo paddling. A group like this is a danger. Slower paddlers will fall back, force themselves to keep up, spending their strength in the wrong way, not having any left when they need it in an emergency. The group will loose members with nobody knowing where they are. The search for them might endanger the rest of the group. There is no check on the abilities of paddlers, so it is easy to enter conditions they can't handle. A group like this is asking for disaster. Kirby: Let them enter the disaster without you. Darwin will take care of them. On advice of this list I bought the book by John Lull: Sea kayakking safety and rescue, that has a very clear and manageable view on group dynamics. Read it, and use it! A group can be safe, when everybody has a clear understanding of the functioning of the group. Otherwise, the "safety by numbers" may feel secure, but actually is as secure as a PFD made of concrete. I am almost getting angry in Kirby's place. Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:17 PM 4/5/02 -0800, Niels Blaauw wrote: >I think Kirby didn't really made a decision to part from the group: The >group parted from him. If I were in his shoes (boat) I would NOT have >tried to catch up. I would have been steaming with anger. I would have >told them on the first chance that I would NEVER paddle with them again. Second the motion. We have a very active fairly local group that I used to paddle with on occasion. However, they don't stay together and don't designate or believe in a sweep. I was with this group one day -- it was not the nicest of conditions -- and had to land for an urgent call of nature. It took a while. Just as I was getting in the boat, way behind but knowing I could catch up, here was this brand new guy on his first trip in this rec boat that had started with the group just coming around the bend, struggling to keep up, way out of touch with the group. I stayed with him to the takeout, got out, and very loudly told him to not consider paddling with the group again, and that I wouldn't either. And I haven't. I doubt if they got the message, though. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Kirby, I have a few comments, but a lot more questions!! Are you a club member, or just a guest for this trip? Kirby Stevens <stevens_at_islandnet.com> wrote: >Once I got home I questioned the club instructor, he mentioned that >there shouldn't be groups that large and trip leaders are not essential >for situations like that. What is the club instructor's role? Was that just their opinion, or do they have an "official" capacity to help organize trips? Probably no, there shouldn't be groups that large, but if nobody is really organizing things, who is going to tell people the group is too large? The larger the group, the more essential a trip leader!! In our club (which still has a looong way to go in the safety department), we have a trip coordinator, who helps line up trip leaders for each trip. The trip leader is expected to know the route, having scouted or taken it before. The trip leader is also responsible for carrying extra group safety gear, and herding the cats while on the water. >My question to everyone is. Should I have continued and caught up to >the group? Depends...what level of commitment do you feel toward the group? They obviously didn't see you as the leader per se [I must hurry to catch up with the others for I am their leader] ;) and they weren't too concerned with your whereabouts. >Or was I right in heading off in my own direction? As far as your own safety, I'd say an emphatic "yes". Even if you had known where they were going, you likely couldn't have caught them in time to steer them clear of the worst area. I lead a club trip last summer that went frustratingly similar. No incidents, but I had radiator problems on the way to the put-in. I arrived at the exact time the trip was to start, but several people had their boats in the water already and were raring to go...makes things difficult if you're trying to run down a "pretrip checklist". Also tough to coordinate a sweep or lead paddler, tough to communicate and coordinate how you will communicate on the water, etc. It's damn tough to lead "from the back", especially without a 'lead' paddler whom you work well and closely with to lead the head of the pack and keep their pace slow enough to keep the group together. >I would also like to mention that I had a cell phone and VHF with me >and I did call home with my change of plans. You da man! At least one person on the trip was responsible. One thing you mentioned really struck me, though. The bit about your lagging behind, but nobody checked on you because "you can look after yourself". I'm a very self-sufficient paddler, too, and am seen that way by my club. What if I was on a trip that someone else was leading and something unforseen happened to me? You definitely don't require "babysitting", but having someone stay within visual distance is a safe idea. I'm teaching a club Trip Leader Training weekend in a month, and I think that's a really great thing to bring up--watch the novices and beginners like a hawk, but still keep an eye on the better paddlers. Good paddlers won't require near the level of supervision, but they do deserve a little common care. **If you decide to go off on your own and play in current, the trip leader should emphasize that nobody will be watching you and you are on your own. (which isn't really the idea of club trips anyway) A little courtesy goes both ways...but my thoughts are starting to wander more off-topic... Like you said, though, you weren't goofing off, but had equipment problems. Safe paddling, Shawn Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:52 PM 4/5/02 -0800, Shawn Baker wrote: >Hi Kirby, > >I have a few comments, but a lot more questions!! > >Are you a club member, or just a guest for this trip? > >Kirby Stevens <stevens_at_islandnet.com> wrote: >>Once I got home I questioned the club instructor, he mentioned that >>there shouldn't be groups that large and trip leaders are not >essential >>for situations like that. > >What is the club instructor's role? Was that just their opinion, or do >they have an "official" capacity to help organize trips? > >Probably no, there shouldn't be groups that large, but if nobody is >really organizing things, who is going to tell people the group is too >large? I probably don't have as much experience paddling with large groups but my general impression has been that once a group becomes larger than 3-4 paddlers it becomes more of a social event than a just a paddle trip. > >The larger the group, the more essential a trip leader!! > >In our club (which still has a looong way to go in the safety >department), we have a trip coordinator, who helps line up trip leaders >for each trip. The trip leader is expected to know the route, having >scouted or taken it before. The trip leader is also responsible for >carrying extra group safety gear, and herding the cats while on the >water. One thing that I could see helping is for the club instructor to write up a basic "trip guidelines" flyer that should accompany every group trip. If everyone was reminded that "everyone must wear a PFD" and "everyone in the group should stay together" and "a trip leader, lead and sweep paddlers should be designated". From the incident described it sounded like most of the paddlers were not even aware of the most basic "rules" for paddling in a group. >One thing you mentioned really struck me, though. The bit about your >lagging behind, but nobody checked on you because "you can look after >yourself". I'm a very self-sufficient paddler, too, and am seen that >way by my club. What if I was on a trip that someone else was leading >and something unforseen happened to me? You definitely don't require >"babysitting", but having someone stay within visual distance is a safe >idea. It sometimes goes even further than that. If you're seen as self-sufficient and likely with more advanced skills, there is even the assumption that you would prefer to be paddling in more challenging conditions rather than with the group. I seem to have already deleted the response about offering yourself for an interview in a paper for paddling accidents but I wanted to comment on it. Even if you can't convince someone from the paper to call you when an accident has occurred there is always the editorials page where you can write a response to the story as reported. Perhaps just doing that and coming across as knowledgable about the sport might prompt someone from the paper to contact you about an incident in the future. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have come to believe as a fact that unless there is a strong and very well organized leadership, large groups tend to split. And I've found many reasons for that, which are logical and even natural. But what is "large" ? 5 ? 10 ? 50 ? One point of reference I use is when even while all the members try to paddle close to each other, some of them can't listen what the others are saying, so loosing track of the conversation. When the whole group can not have a single conversation, then some paddlers feel out of it and start their own chat with the one who's closer to them. This splitting of conversations creates subdivisions, with different paddling speeds, building distance among them and tearing the attention of the members apart of the rest of the group. One of the responsabilities of the leathers is stay aware of that despite how interesting the conversations might be. The main question I ask is was the trip organized by the club or independently by some of its members ? For what Kirby describes I understand it was a simply get togeather of some of its members and so with a very precarious or improvised organization, or perhaps with no organization at all. Some of them might be very good with they're kayaks but usually none had leadership habilities. One is a leader only when the group accepts you and recognices you as that, otherwise no matter how much you know they won't follow you. In this kind of get togeathers when nobody is designed and accepted as a leader they simply go the best they can but loose the meaning of group, they loose cohesion, to put it in funny words, they become "a bunch of people". Then anything can happen, from having lots of fun to a terrible dissaster. Basically, to participate there you must understand you will be on your own, kind of solo paddling with many people. Wiew under this optic, Kirby you did the best you could, and once you came to the conclusion that nobody cared about you, you decided to be on your own and save the day, and I find it perfect. You were never responsible for as they never asked anything for you. There's no need to put any blame on you. But they never promised anything to you either, so you shouldn't blame them by playing with different rules. I think this kind of get togeathers are not bad at all. Actually is part of the learning process any complete experienced kayaker must have, wich is dealing with people. When there is no leader at all, members are all the same, and remaining togeather under these circumstances is a goal itself. It can be done but only once the group members learn to accept each others pros and cons. And this may take years. Whe I go out with a group I basically evaluate if I am ready to deal with the conditions as if I were on my own. If I can't I simply don't go. If I can, then I don't care much how the group is organized. I use to paddle with the last and I spontaneously take care of their safety (I can't have fun if I feel someone might be in trouble). So if the group live me alone and I can't catch them up, I don't care, I save my forces, go at my rithm and meet them later when they make their stop, at the planned camp or the get out. If conditions are not safe to follow, then I simply don't go, landing or turning back as required. If the group leaves someone else then I stay with them, in case they need me. But at that point I've usually been designed new leader. If I feel I wouldn't be able to take care of the group by myself, I go for help. In one trip I had to "force" two other experience kayakers to help me take care of some guys, that meaning loosing the rest of the group forever. All sorts of fights ... but everybody safe. Other time, in a middle of a storm during an open crossing, I had to tye to me by force a guy in trouble who dind't wont to be helped (he was so inexperienced he was not aware of the danger), but the group didn't wait for us at all while escaping from the storm. The group was big and very experienced except for this guy, so I asked a couple of friends to stay behind with me and let the rest of the group go. We never met the group again, I had to pull him for 4 hours supporting his insults and finally released him when we reached calm waters. Days later he called me appologizing for his attitude. Any situation is different, but common sense must prevail. Safety first. A group is a group when all its members want to stay togeather. When this doesn't happen, then the group doesn't exist as a group no more. In a group everybody paddles at the speed of the slower, no matter what. By launching togeather they accept the fact to remain togeather for safety, and safety goes before fun. When this doesn't happen the group is broken and is not a group any more. When a group stops being a group, it becomes .... a bunch of people .... and then there are no rules at all. My 2 cents ... Fernando Lopez Arbarello --------- Kayak Argentina --------- http://home.earthlink.net/~kayakargentina kayakargentina_at_earthlink.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fernando said in reply to Kirby: <snip> A group is a group when all its members want to stay together. When this doesn't happen, then the group doesn't exist as a group no more. <snip> Wow! That about says it all Fernando. Well, I haven't done a lot of large group paddles with the VCKC club, only the Victoria Network. The Network paddle outings are well-know for their less-than-ridgid style, and that is what sets them apart. Accept that, or don't go. But the Club paddles are usually well organized and safety basics always given high priority. But the club paddles are not usually large group affairs, so I tend to think this trip Kirby was on was a little bit of an anomaly. Generally, I would take the opportunity if I had been Kirby to stay with the group, done a little gentle mentoring, attempted to communicate my concerns as a learning point (leaving me behind, etc.). I would have apologized for being late to the put in, and found out if I had done something wrong, etc. With a new boat, I would have made sure to be there ahead of the group so as to make sure the footpegs were adjusted, etc. There was a bit of a choppy forecast for the day, know ahead of time, and I would have caught up to the group and kept an eye on the newer paddlers, once I had sized up the paddlers, etc. Another issue raised is that of trip start times. There should be a rule in place that late arrivals or persons with boat problems at the put in be left with a couple of volunteers. With a large group this isn't a problem logistically. With a small group (of good friends) they usually wait for you. Also, what folks may conceive or perceive you are thinking can be based on previous experience with that paddler. On the open coast, my friends know I usually take off for rock garden forays. Also, I often hang back near the end of the day, not because I'm exhausted, but because I like to mellow out and take in the view near the take-out. My friends know this. Perhaps some of the other paddlers have had some prior observations of your paddling habits that made them think a certain way. I like what was said on the list about not forgetting the experienced paddlers in one's concern for safety on the water. Look at me: I'm sure the same thing could have happened to me as happened to Kirby, and probably there would have even been less concern for me. I'm usually on the outside in 40-knot winds. But right now, I have to stay close to shore in calm water only. Any one of us experienced types could have a temporary health concern, or succumb to hypothermia for some weird reason. So group paddles should follow some basic provisos -- but it can all depend upon the people, and you get different combinations on a trip at times. There's nothing like having a few good paddling buddies who you know and trust. As far as the VCKC paddles are concerned, we had a safety-bitch (term of endearment) a few years ago. She was awesome (I thought), always making sure folks wore their PFD's, ensuring compliance with the club's code for immersion apparel -- yet, many resented her and figured she was the safety police. Sure, a happy medium is always nice, but once you have found that median, there are still folks unhappy on either side of the extreme. You can't win. It sounds like Kirby had a good day and hopefully learned a few things. That sounds successful to me. I've been on the bad end of poor group dynamics, as well as the one dishing out poor treatment. It's all a learning game, in both cases. Just keep a positive attitude and look for the teachable moments and make an attempt to improve things for next time. That's my take. Gotta go for now... Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thinking further in the topic, after reading all postings, I ask to myself ... why do we paddle in an group ? There shod be man reasons ... but which is the main, common to all the members of the group despite their experience ? And probably Shawn gave us the answer ... meeting people .... company ... Based on that, the best way to achieve this goal is staying togeather. Then why we split ? .... Any psycologyst in the list ? ... :) Maybe one should put more emphasis on the social aspects of the meeting, not only the technical. Coexistance is a very important topic we all need to learn if we want to become a proficient expedition kayaker. And is one of the most dificult and most ignored. Best regards.- Fernando Lopez Arbarello --------- Kayak Argentina --------- http://home.earthlink.net/~kayakargentina kayakargentina_at_earthlink.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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