Any cheap sources of closed cell mini foam? My left leg is going completely numb since I foamed the hips of my kayak. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim asks: >>Any cheap sources of closed cell mini foam? My left leg is going completely numb since I foamed the hips of my kayak.<< Do you really need more foam? Or is your leg going to sleep because you foamed your hips and made it a bit too tight? Sounds like you need some Dragonskin. It's a sanding device that allows you to shape the foam. Remember the tighter you make the seat and hips in your boat, the less your butt wants to be in there. steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote: >Do you really need more foam? Or is your leg going to sleep because you >foamed your hips and made it a bit too tight? Sounds like you need some >Dragonskin. It's a sanding device that allows you to shape the foam. I was wondering the same thing. If the hip pads are too tight you may be pressing on a nerve. When hip pads are done properly you won't be aware of them, even after paddling a few hours. Have you noticed any pressure points? If so remove more foam. Steve, I've used the dragonskin for smoothing the foam for a finished surface after carving with other tools (knife, saw, Stanley Surform) but find the dragonskin too slow for removing much foam. Do you use the Surform for more aggressive removal? Here is a way to check to see if your hip pads are too thick. Put the kayak on the lawn or some other soft surface. Get in the kayak and roll it over on it's side. Let's say the left side for the purpose of this example. All of your weight will now be on the left hip pad. You should now have about one inch of space between your right hip and the right hip pad. Jim, most kayak shops carry the closed cell foam or you can order it from a web site. Try local first. Prices vary significantly on the web ($8 to $12 for 3x12x12) and you will have a shipping fee ($7 perhaps) and possibly tax. Run a search on several search engines and you will come up with some sites. Search "minicel foam kayak outfitting" for a start. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex asks; >> I've used the dragonskin for smoothing the foam for a finished > surface after carving with other tools (knife, saw, Stanley Surform) but > find the dragonskin too slow for removing much foam. Do you use the Surform > for more aggressive removal? > Generally, I get it pretty close with a band saw, sheet rock saw or hack saw blade, then the Dradonskin. I wrap the DS around a 2" diameter cylinder of minicell and duct tape the ends providing a fairly aggressive sander. In the years past I've used Surforms, disc sanders and even wire wheels. A cheap wire wheel on a drill motor can really chew through the foam! Even without the motor a wire wheel can gouge out a lot of material. Gotta be careful when you get 110 volts working with you tho! steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex Roberton wrote: > > Here is a way to check to see if your hip pads are too thick. Put the kayak > on the lawn or some other soft surface. Get in the kayak and roll it over > on it's side. Let's say the left side for the purpose of this example. All > of your weight will now be on the left hip pad. You should now have about > one inch of space between your right hip and the right hip pad. > Should? My research dictates that there are MANY ways of determining how tight hip pads are from both personal preference and the type of paddling you do. My personal preference is much as a whitewater boat is outfitted. If you picked me up in the kayak, the kayak would come up with me. Not even close to an inch of play, even on hard land... gabriel l romeu http://studiofurniture.com רר http://journalphoto.org רר http://kayakoutfitting.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Should? My research dictates that there are MANY ways of >determining how tight hip pads are from both personal >preference and the type of paddling you do. >My personal preference is much as a whitewater boat is >outfitted. If you picked me up in the kayak, the kayak >would come up with me. Not even close to an inch of play, >even on hard land... Gabriel, one inch of play, when using this test of putting the boat on it's side equals one half inch on each side when sitting up right. If you pick me up in any of my boats, whitewater or sea kayak the boat will come up also just as you have described. This is because of the shape of the hip pads. They are "hooked" over my hips. You can see a picture of one of my kayaks on Ken Rasmussen's web site at www.kayakfit.com. Click on the "Photos" link on the left side of the home page. On the Photos page my boat is the skin boat (second row down, second picture to the right). You will see that the hip pads, at the height of the cockpit coaming are almost three inches thick. That is the part that "hooks" over my hips. The lower portion (which you can't see) is less than one half inch thick. This is where you have the extra space that I'm talking about. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex Roberton wrote: > > >Should? My research dictates that there are MANY ways of > >determining how tight hip pads are from both personal > >preference and the type of paddling you do. > >My personal preference is much as a whitewater boat is > >outfitted. If you picked me up in the kayak, the kayak > >would come up with me. Not even close to an inch of play, > >even on hard land... > > Gabriel, one inch of play, when using this test of putting the boat on it's > side equals one half inch on each side when sitting up right. That is what I figured. On my boats, there is not any play, in fact, I squeeze into the hip foam blocks. They exert a slight pressure all around. If you pick > me up in any of my boats, whitewater or sea kayak the boat will come up also > just as you have described. This is because of the shape of the hip pads. > They are "hooked" over my hips. You can see a picture of one of my kayaks > on Ken Rasmussen's web site at www.kayakfit.com. Click on the "Photos" link > on the left side of the home page. On the Photos page my boat is the skin > boat (second row down, second picture to the right). You will see that the > hip pads, at the height of the cockpit coaming are almost three inches > thick. That is the part that "hooks" over my hips. The lower portion > (which you can't see) is less than one half inch thick. This is where you > have the extra space that I'm talking about. ... and a very fine job by the looks of it. It just isn't how I like it. I prefer a very sensitive lateral movement which is better accomplished (I believe) by a snug fit all around. I do no take issue on your preference, mine is no better, but I do take issue with using the word 'should'. Outfitting is a very personal thing and there are many approaches to it for both personal comfort and desired performance characteristics. Just to put another context to it, I really find back bands to be uncomfortable and a nuisance and prefer a lower back lumbar 'ramp'. You find it a good solution for your cockpit I assume, as you use one, and your craftsmanship reflects a very considered attitude towards a proper outfitting. I can't argue with your choice of back support. It just isn't for me. Those knee hooks would do me just fine though... gabriel -- gabriel l romeu http://studiofurniture.com רר http://journalphoto.org רר http://kayakoutfitting.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim wrote: - >Any cheap sources of closed cell mini foam? >My left leg is going completely numb since >I foamed the hips of my kayak. G'Day, I had the same problem some months ago - couldn't paddle for more than 20 minutes. Shaping the knee braces and leaving room underneath the centre of the deck for the occasional rest from knee bracing did the trick for me. Can now paddle many hours with very snug (no clearance) hip pads. This probably means everyone is different and its worth experimenting by tacking in pads before permanently gluing them. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
. . . speaking of permanently gluing, I have just tried the following approach, and I'm wondering if other have also. Instead of installing the foam with contact cement (which I did in my old kayak, with long-lasting, satisfactory results), I put velcro patches in at the points of contact where the hip and knee pads go. The complementary patches are on the backs of the pads. The reason I am trying this is so that persons of different girth can use my boat. But it also allows me to experiment a little with different widths or shapes of pads. I'll have to see how the patches hold up over time to water, etc., and if it's too much trouble, I'll go back to a permanent system. Tom Joyce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
During an ACA adaptive paddling class we used a serrated (not the real fine "toothed" type) bread knife to carve closed cell foam. Worked really well. Now my wife keeps asking "Whatever happend to the bread knife?" I don't dare tell her it's with my kayak fitting tools--I'll just get her/us a new one for the kitchen next time I go to the grocery. Thanks for reminding me of this. John Browning www.wildernessconnection.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>>During an ACA adaptive paddling class we used a serrated (not the real fine "toothed" type) bread knife to carve closed cell foam. Worked really well. Now my wife keeps asking "Whatever happend to the bread knife?" I don't dare tell her it's with my kayak fitting tools--I'll just get her/us a new one for the kitchen next time I go to the grocery. Thanks for reminding me of this.<<< An electric carving knife also works well for this... I'll use one, then Surform gadgets for final shaping, contouring, etc. Then a heat gun for smoothing it all done and getting rid of the fuzzies. --On minicell; don't think this would be a good idea on ethafoam. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Take a look at this site. They supply the stuff you need to build a custom cockpit including mini cell foam. http://www.kayakfit.com/ On Sunday 23 June 2002 09:24 pm, you wrote: > Any cheap sources of closed cell mini foam? My left leg is going > completely numb since I foamed the hips of my kayak. > > Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Minicell and ethafoam. I've never had a failure as a result of using the wrong type of glue, yet anyway, but while down at my local Tap Plastics I mentioned the subject. While a number of glues will work on minicell I was told that no glue really works on ethafoam. The only way to insure it will stay put is to glass it in. Thinking back, all of my applications have been glued in but also press fit in areas where it would be difficult for the foam to move anyway. This guy may be totally off base but I think it's worth asking if anybody has experience gluing unsupported ethafoam? Kevin Nelson *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<tfj4_at_attbi.com> wrote: >> speaking of permanently gluing, I have just tried the following approach, and I'm wondering if other have also. Instead of installing the foam with contact cement (which I did in my old kayak, with long-lasting, satisfactory results), I put velcro patches in at the points of contact where the hip and knee pads go. >> I tried that on the foam seat for my main hardshell, and had some disastrous results: seat came loose during self-rescue practice and trapped me in there. Fortunately, I was able to get air. I would not recommend this for items that take a lot of stress, such as foam that fits your body. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is a great idea, and is also what Wilderness Systems/WaveSport seems to be doing in the way of their factory outfitting. If you put the loop on the boat, and the hook on the pad, you could interchange pads with skinnier/girthier people who use the same system in their boats. You can also make a pad with hook on one side, and loop on the other, to pad out boats for skinny folks. WaveSport also uses a piece of webbing with a ladderloc buckle around the seat support to keep big water from pulling the hip pad out. Shawn >Instead of installing the foam with contact cement (which I did in my old kayak, with long-lasting, satisfactory results), I put velcro patches in at the points of contact where the hip and knee pads go. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If you use Velcro or the newer, stronger links (marine grade, maybe from 3M?) for seats and backrests, check out the actual strength of that bond before you get in a situation like Dave described. Do some well-supported wet exits and reentries to make sure that your minicell pads aren't, in fact, entrapment potentials. My boats are all heavily foamed, but I don't think I'd trust Velcro or any of its follow-on hook and loop material for a large piece of foam. Think about the bouyancy factor of each piece by itself in water: that energy will be trying to pull the pad out when the cockpit is flooded. Jack Martin Foam junkie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Which is one reason I like the Wavesport setup with the webbing straps backing up the velcro. The straps cover tension, the velcro keeps things aligned from shear. Shawn --- JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > My boats are all heavily foamed, but I don't think I'd trust Velcro > or any of its follow-on hook and loop material for a large piece of > foam. Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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