I understand that paddling during lightning isn't good. I mean I understand it better than I did in '95 when I took my my kayak on its maiden voyage up the wide Stono River and thought it was really fun to paddle through a driving thunderstorm, especially after all those pansies who were afraid of a little rain stopped cluttering the waterway. What I don't understand are the specific mechanics of lightening in a way that tells me when and why it's dangerous. On a narrow stream that sits low between high banks populated by large trees, is there risk of being directly injured by lightening or only the risk of indirect injury from a falling tree that's been hit on higher ground. Am I better off on the low, narrow water than on the higher bank? Am I only in danger of a lightning strike if I'm still stupid enough to paddle down the middle of the wide Stono? What if I hide under a railroad trestle? Can I hang out in the kayak a few feet off the bank where the trees towering over me will catch the bolt and route it into the ground I'm intentionally staying away from? If I'm paddling the Sea Lion, does the metal reinforcement pipe that runs the length of the hull affect anything? Anyone understand the mechanics well enough to offer guidance? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Can I hang out in the kayak a few feet off the bank > where the trees towering over me will catch the bolt and route it into > the ground I'm intentionally staying away from? > Anyone understand the mechanics well enough to offer guidance? No, I don't understand it well enough to offer guidance, but my perception about the tree statement above is that if you are that close, you will be impacted even though not hit. My perception is that it could still lift you up, slam you down, and generally ruin your day, even though you weren't "hit". At minimum, you'd be a bit "tingly" and you'd have to change the batteries in your pace-maker, so to speak. It's kind of like playing with hand-grenades... close is close enough. I could be wrong, though. I'm no expert. The real reason I'm posting on this thread, though, is that I'd like to add a question to yours. Is the following true or false? I've heard in the past that lightening (the actual energy and "charge") actually goes from the ground up, and it's just the visual aspect that appears to go from the sky down. Is that true? What exactly is taking place here? I can honestly say that this subject is NOT one that I wish to learn by hands-on experience. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The 'ground up' aspect of lightening has to do with a channel of charged particles/electrons paving the way, so to speak, before the actual strike. Lightening seeks electrical ground through the quickest path of least resistance. Lightening 'fractures' to seek several channels of 'ground'. Lightening 'bounces', 'reflects', 'deflects'. Direct, full-impact strikes on people are rarer than reflected and ground-channel strikes. A direct strike kills. Indirect and ground channel strikes can range from relative 'mild' knock downs, to deadly. In between are a host of very nasty and unpleasant conditions including severe cardio arrhythmia, neurological dysfunction, electrical 'amputation' of fingers and toes, severe burns (some of which produce a 'lace tattoo'), etc. When you read about a group of people being 'struck', this is usually a case of ground channel mixed with reflective strike from nearby object....a softball team gets nailed when the light tower in center field takes a direct hit...etc. Those who hike/climb in the mountains often find their religion during intense lightening storms. The strategy when there is no place to hide is to disperse the group (so that some will likely survive and be able to treat the victims), squat (w/o touching your hands to the ground) atop a coil of rope or some meager insulating material, and hope for the best. The 'Cone of Safety' theory has many supporters. The idea is to position yourself within and along the outer circumference of a 'cone' drawn from the top of a nearby object, and out from its base...the thinking being that you are close enough that the taller object draws the direct & indirect strikes, but far enough to avoid reflective strike and ground-fault contact. I believe Hutchison's Expedition Kayaking book offers a kayak rig along this same set of principles. Not something I'd be interested in testing anytime soon. -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob wrote: What I don't understand are the specific mechanics of lightening in a way that tells me when and why it's dangerous. On a narrow stream that sits low between high banks populated by large trees, is there risk of being directly injured by lightening or only the risk of indirect injury from a falling tree that's been hit on higher ground. Am I better off on the low, narrow water than on the higher bank? Hi Bob, My two cents. I understand that lightning will approach, develop or touch pointed objects, that are connected to ground, even if ground is not that good. A wet tree can make a good connection to ground. The reason for picking pointed objects is that in sharp edges the electric field concentrates and is easier to brake the air in ionized particles that travel to the cloud or back from the cloud, depending on their charge. Points are so attractive to lightning that there is a rule of thumb that says that a lightning will not strike any object that is under a 45 degrees virtual shade. A large building with a pointed lightning absorver will protect all small houses inside of the virtual 45 degree umbrella. When I was a kid, all houses under the churches with big towers, (very popular in Mexico) were protected from lightning and we saw lightning hit the tower but never houses close by. So I am sure that in a flat big lake a kayaker with wet paddle, specially with alluminum shaft is a better landing sharp point than the flat water. On the other hand, paddling in a river with V shape mountains on the sides makes it very very unlikely that a lightning will hit a paddler in the water. Many trees will give the 45 degree shadow, as well as the mountain itself. Speaking from physics point of view the cannon is inside a V of equal potential (ground) and there is no attraction to the lightning there. The closest ground point as viewed from the clouds is the tallest tree or cliff or church or whatever up there. I wouldn't mind paddling in such a river but I have escaped from lakes quickly when thunderstorms approach. I keep worrying when thinking about sailboats with big alluminum masts. Best Regards, Rafael el cayuco chief. Mexico. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In an earlier lifetime I had a Columbia 28 sailboat with a 40 some foot (grounded to the keel) aluminum mast. Sailed it through many a thunderstorm on the Chesapeake Bay and never had a lightning strike. The way I heard it was there is less resistance for the lightning to strike directly in the water rather than travel the mast, stays and other hardware. I was also once involved in working on an aircraft performing lightning strike experiments for NASA. It was very difficult to get lightning to hit that thing without trying to charge the fuselage to attract it. FWIW, Dave G. At 18:20 8/20/02, Rafael Mier Maza wrote: <snip a bunch> >I wouldn't mind paddling in such a river but I have escaped from lakes >quickly when thunderstorms approach. > >I keep worrying when thinking about sailboats with big alluminum masts. > >Best Regards, > >Rafael >el cayuco chief. >Mexico. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Dave, I was really worried about sailboats but never took the time to think or ask about it. It is clear then that the grounded mast is not in contact with water to drain the current because that would attract all lightnings. This means that the boat insulation makes the mast stay at a floating potential different than ground and therefore is not a good path to ground. The same might apply to a kayak, with lower insulation level being smaller, as long as wet paddle is not in the water. Could that suggest that in a thunderstorm, while in the water, one should not use alluminum shaft paddles and keep the wet paddles out of the water, and horizontal, so that one is also a floating point?. I wonder if there are some data of kayakers hit by thunderstorms in the sea. Maybe plastic and fiberglass kayaks are good enough insulation to protect kayakers form lightning. Best Regards, Rafael el cayuco chief Mexico At 07:27 p.m. 20/08/02 -0400, Dave Gorjup wrote: >In an earlier lifetime I had a Columbia 28 sailboat with a 40 some foot >(grounded to the keel) aluminum mast. Sailed it through many a >thunderstorm on the Chesapeake Bay and never had a lightning strike. The >way I heard it was there is less resistance for the lightning to strike >directly in the water rather than travel the mast, stays and other hardware. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rafael wrote: >Could that suggest that in a thunderstorm, while in the water, one >should not use alluminum shaft paddles and keep the wet paddles out >of the water, and horizontal, so that one is also a floating point?. > >I wonder if there are some data of kayakers hit by thunderstorms in >the sea. Maybe plastic and fiberglass kayaks are good enough >insulation to protect kayakers form lightning. from http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000001-d000100/d000007/d000007.html "Let's consider a few possibilities...sitting in your aluminum or fiberglass rowboat, you are holding a graphite (a good electrical conductor) fishing rod. The rod is struck by lightning. The electrical charge passes through the rod, your body, then to the boat to the water." Replace 'rowboat' with 'kayak' and 'fishing rod' with 'paddle' --- you get the idea. From the same page: "...small boats are seldom made of metal. Their wood and fiberglass construction do not provide the automatic grounding protection offered by metal-hulled craft. Therefore, when lightning strikes a small boat, the electrical current is searching any route to ground and the human body is an excellent conductor of electricity! " And on what to do if caught in a lighting storm: "Stay in the center of the cabin if the boat is so designed. If no enclosure (cabin) is available, stay low in the boat. Don't be a "stand-up human" lightning mast!" Read: Kayaker on the water in a lightning storm == human lightning mast Also, keep in mind that lighting is drawn to the edge of water bodies (higher objects and better conductivity). So when leaving the water, don't hang around near the shore. Brian Curtiss *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for all the great advice on lightening, and for addressing Rick's question on the direction of the charge. The classic case of the "ground current strike" mentioned by Will may be when dozens of women golfers were injured because the ground was so saturated that charges virtually spread throughout the course. I'm no longer dumb enough to willfully challenge lightning, just wondering how to optimize chances when the storm finds me. I like the implications of Rafael's 45-degree umbrella rule. Maybe that's why my family lived next to the church; fortunately, we moved before the lightening bolt started the fire that burned off the steeple. I gather that staying in the kayak within the 45-degree umbrella just off the riverbank MIGHT be a worthy alternative. Seems like the question is whether the charge has the propensity to (a) travel only between the firm ground and the sky via the pointed-tree route of least resistance or (b) be induced by the water on which you're floating to spread out in a secondary strike. And the correct answer probably varies in each case with the precise configuration of ground, water and tree. And the dry tree trunk at the beginning of the storm will act differently when it's later soaked and standing in the new trickle of run-off that might route the secondary strike into the water you're on. Rafael Mier Maza wrote: > I keep worrying when thinking about sailboats with big alluminum masts. Rafael, my understanding is that such craft have a lightning rod apparatus that diverts the charge around the boat, probably using the same principle as Will's description of the "insulated lineman's pole ... erected perpendicular to your deck, with a trailing ground wire into the water". Having a metal bar down the middle of my Sea Lion, I just do wheelies during storms. Will Jennings wrote: > ...life-long brain/nervous system difficulties ....heart rhythm > problems...eye sight and hearing loss...altered emotional make-up and severe > personality changes...loss of memory, taste, certain locomotion problems, > etc. . . . and after the lightning strike? boB *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:20 PM 8/20/2002 -0500, Rafael Mier Maza wrote: > On the other hand, paddling in a river with V shape mountains on the > sides makes it very very unlikely that a lightning will hit a paddler in > the water. Many trees will give the 45 degree shadow, as well as the > mountain itself. Speaking from physics point of view the cannon is > inside a V of equal potential (ground) and there is no attraction to the > lightning there. Way back when I read the newsgroup rec.boats.paddle there were several threads about seeing lightning strikes down in canyons. A google search, limited to the newsgroup rec.boats.paddle, brought up one such article. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=lightning+strike+canyon+group:rec.boats.pa ddle&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=31blfk%24kh5%40search01.news.aol.com&r num=1 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >Way back when I read the newsgroup rec.boats.paddle there were several >threads about seeing lightning strikes down in canyons. A google search, >limited to the newsgroup rec.boats.paddle, brought up one such article. > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=lightning+strike+canyon+group:rec.boats.pa >ddle&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=31blfk%24kh5%40search01.news.aol.com&r >num=1 Kirk, Thanks for the article, Read it carefully. It is very interesting how many scenarios can happen that one is not aware of when giving an opinion. My comments and experience were based on muddy, wet tropical canyons, and therefore neglected other possibilities. Now it is clear to me that in rocky places and deserts, the soil and ground can act as an insulator and the running water and wetted bottom of the canyon can act as the real ground that clouds see as the "target", or the place where potential difference is highest. My understanding in many of these topics is constantly confronted by paddlewisers. For example, we paddle in tropical waters and seldom need a wetsuit, while in some other places even in summer water is cold. We paddle in tropical places where everything is usually wet and resistance to ground is very low. In places like Seattle resistance to ground must be lower because it rains so much and there is so much vegetation, but then you must be careful of bears and animals that we donīt see around. In Padre Island Tx. the main concern is coyotes. What a great way to learn is this. Best Regards, Rafael el cayuco chief Mexico *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> For a very interesting read that should give pause to anyone willing to > risk geting hit by lightening, try A Match to the Heart, by Gretel > Ehrlich, who writes about recovering from injuries suffered two years > prior when she was struck by lightning in the Big Horn mountains above > Sheridan, Wyoming. All her stuff is wonderful and this is a very nice > introduction to her writing. > ********************************************************* John S. March, MD, MPH Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Duke Child and Family Study Center 718 Rutherford Street Durham, NC 27705 919/416-2404 (P); 919/416-2420 (F) Email: jsmarch_at_acpub.duke.edu Website: http://www2.mc.duke.edu/pcaad "I maintain there is much more wonder in science than in pseudoscience. And in addition, to whatever measure this term has any meaning, science has the additional virtue, and it is not an inconsiderable one, of being true." --Carl Sagan ********************************************************* *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:16 p.m. 20/08/02 -0400, Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote: >Is the following true or false? I've heard in the past that lightening >(the actual energy and "charge") actually goes from the ground up, and >it's just the visual aspect that appears to go from the sky down. Is that >true? What exactly is taking place here? Clouds can be charged positively or negatively. That is so truth that you can see lightning from one cloud to the other. If there is a positive cloud as respect to ground and it breaks the air (ionizes the air), negative particles will go up to the cloud and positive particles will come down to the earth. The net effect is positive charge coming down. On the other hand if the cloud is negatively charged, with respect to ground, then the net effect is negative charge coming down or positive charge going up. The visual effect of light starting up or down is hard to see. Once it starts the stream happens very quickly. It will depend on where the air molecules fail first (due to the high voltage present) and it can be at the pointed building tower or just by the cloud. Best Regards, Rafael el cayuco chief Mexico *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I visited the Boston Museum of Science on June 9 with a large group of my students. While there some of us attended one of the lightning "shows." A scientist/lecturer encamped himself in a metal cage during his talk and controlled large Van De Graaff generators, out of which emanated a million or more volts of electricity. Thus, simulating something like lightning and directing the charge to his cage, he demonstrated that a metal cage actually protects one during a lightning storm. His explanation was that the deadly charge actually travels around the outermost and outside layers of the cage, literally the outermost layer of atoms with their accompanying electrons. He proceeded to touch the inside of the metal cage while again "enduring" the huge voltage. There may be practical benefits we can learn from this. Our scientist explained that rubber tires on a car are not what protect people from lightning. They do not "insulate" occupants as is commonly believed. It is actually the metal cage of the car! Furthermore, he warned people not to stick body parts outside the window during the storm. This would negate the protection. I really found this interesting!. Also, while living in the Anchorage, Alaska area (1974 to 1996), I knew of a lady who was killed while jogging through a metal culvert (common on our biking/ski trails). Though I think the electricity that charged the culvert was of AC type (a broken power line?), the lady bolted into standing water on the floor of the culvert to rescue her dog, who had preceded her during her run and was being electrocuted. Perhaps this is not directly related to this discussion, but I am reminded of this while paddling in one of our nearby Maine lakes, where a road culvert leads to a boat ramp. My wife and I remained outside the culvert during a hummer of a storm last year, rather than paddle our boats lickety-split to the ramp to beat the storm. We got drenched by the side of the lake, but were perhaps safer than testing our luck. Of further interest is the fact that sodium ions in salt water will easily conduct a charge of AC current, while distilled water will not. Of course, none of us paddle in distilled water :) But there are plenty of metal ions of various types in ground water in any discharge area (lake, river, household taps, etc.). I wonder, does this make salt water a bit more deadly to be on or in during a lightning storm? Thanks, Tom LeTourneau Wells, Maine *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "TomL" <tletourn_at_maine.rr.com> > he demonstrated that a metal cage > actually protects one during a lightning storm. So paddle with a metal cage around your kayak - solve the lighting and the ballast problems all in one go! :-) Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> What I don't understand are the specific mechanics of lightening in a > way that tells me when and why it's dangerous. On a narrow stream that > sits low between high banks populated by large trees, is there risk of > being directly injured by lightening or only the risk of indirect injury > from a falling tree that's been hit on higher ground. Am I better off > on the low, narrow water than on the higher bank? > I've heard it said that being in a river valley is a *relatively* safer place to be. See: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/brochures/trw.htm http://whirlwind100.nssl.noaa.gov/mag/holleetal.html http://www.lightningsafety.com http://www.stats.org/spotlight/2200.html Play Hard, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've never had the opportunity to closely observe lightning on water, I'll pass thanks. I have had very personal encounters during the big mountain phase of my climbing life. What always amazed me is the way it occasionally threw all the theory out the door and did something spectacular. I've been sitting next to a guy that felt the strike as a mild shock ( not a close strike by any means) while I felt nothing. I've had my ice axe, and hardware buzz with electricity in the air and my hair stand on end but never a discharge although we were certainly asking for it. I took a solo trip into the Palisades one year and got caught in a storm just below Bishop Pass and came away semi deaf. I actually saw horizontal lighting 50 feet away with the correct ear shattering noise to accompany it. At the time I was sitting in a pool of water due to a leaky bivi tent. I was in a little horseshoe of rocks and obviously came out alive but I never saw any strikes on prominent points around me or anywhere within my field of vision. My point is you don't do anything stupid but don't expect it to leave you alone either. You can do stupid things, (my trip) and escape sometimes, but don't count on it. It will do whatever it wants to, unless you're safe in a car. Lawyer and his client are out on the golf course when a lightning storm comes up. The client says let's head for the clubhouse. The lawyer says no it's not dangerous, raises his 9 iron and says," OK so take me now." You can guess the punch line, he's immediately fried. Substitute fishing on a lake or ????; urban legend, or grim warning? Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
writes: "from: "TomL" <tletourn_at_maine.rr.com> > he demonstrated that a metal cage > actually protects one during a lightning storm. So paddle with a metal cage around your kayak - solve the lighting and the ballast problems all in one go! :-)" The man's a genius. Hope the major manufacturers read this, Michaels future is secure. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
knelson_at_captivasoftware.com wrote: > >So paddle with a metal cage around your kayak - solve the lighting >and the ballast problems all in one go! :-)" > >The man's a genius. Hope the major manufacturers read this, Michaels >future is secure. > He's a genius indeed if he can figure out how sell a kayak with a metal cage around a paddler that's used for ballast - the ballast weight needs to be below the water, and I for one am NOT going to paddle a kayak while trapped in a metal cage under water, even during a thunderstorm! (How's that for a scary thought!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm on digest, so maybe other folks have responded in the meantime. This spring my weather spotter update course spent a bit of time on the 45 degree safety cone rule of thumb. Evidence shows it's a myth. Numerous people have been injured or killed by the secondary effects of a lightning strike on the large tree they were taking shelter under. Will provided a good description of how this occurs. Here in the Twin Cities, we've been repeatedly reminded of this due to the PGA golf tournament that just came through. The last time Hazeltine hosted a major golf event, 5 people were killed or injured due to secondary effects of a strike on their "safety tree". www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls.html contains some good info. Paul *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
IMHO, lightning is erratic and dangerous enough to stay well away from, if you can. Previous posts already mentioned some of dangers of direct hits, secondary hits and ground currents, I'll summarize if I may: - Nervous system damage resulting in - "General system failure" (heart and breathing stopping) Burns Ear and eye damage Even if you get help quick enough and you survive these, their effects may be permanent. The 45 degree cone theory has some physical truth in it, but stricktly only onder laboratory conditions. The safest place to be is inside, preferably under a solid roof and well away from any openings. Don't touch any metal or other conducting objects, especially not those that connect to the outside (telephone, water taps, electrical appliances, central heating pipes). Second best place is in a car or other metal enclosure, as far away from any windows (the back seat may be the beter choice, with those modern sloping windscreens) When outside, squat with your feet as close together as possible at the lowest possible place, cover your eyes and ears (thumbs in your ears and fingers over your eyes). When in a group, spread apart, so not everyone is rendered helpless when struck. be safe, Kees *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Rafael Mier Maza" <sildriel_at_ciateq.net.mx> > It is clear then that the grounded mast is not in contact > with water to drain the current because that would attract all lightnings. I think you misread or misunderstood his comment. Masts are definitely grounded to the water - the usual path is throught the keel - sailboat keels are often lead. If the mast is stepped on deck, they use a heavy wire to connect to the keel. If stepped on the keel, they make sure there's a good electrical contact. If it is not grounded to the keel, the current will find another path and can do a lot of damage. I know someone who was in a ferro-cement sailboat in the Gulf of Mexico back in the 70's. They were in a storm and grounded the mast by wrapping some anchor chain around the shrouds and hanging it over the side into the water. They were hit by lightning and the current came down the leeward shroud and blew out the chain plates where the shrouds attach to the deck (I guess the lighting didn't like the dangling chains). They were hove-to and the shrouds were left blowing in the wind with a hole where the deck and hull used to be. They were able to jury rig a repair before the wind changed or were forced on another tack. Needless to say, they developed a healthy respect for lightning as a result! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You're absolutely right, Mike. The mast on my Columbia was stepped on top of the cabin in an aluminum shoe. A heavy duty copper cable ran from the shoe bolts in the cabin down to the keel mounting hardware in the bilge. The keel was about 6 feet deep and 700 lbs of lead. A great ground. Also, I had a FM radio antenna on top of the mast that was electrically isolated from the rest of the boat so that lightning would go down the mast rather than the radio antenna or the shrouds. Highly effective system though I never saw it tested in the years I owned the boat. I am aware of someone who died on a sailboat from a lightning strike in a Norfolk, Va marina. To make a long story short, his boat did not have a grounded mast. He died in his sleep when lightning struck the mast, traveled down a shroud and entered his body laying in a bunk up against the hardware that held a chainplate in place. One hand, where lightning exited his body, was very close to a 110 Volt outlet in his shore power system which was connected to the dock. A very freak accident that happened at the same time when I lived on my boat in Hampton, Va. Caused me to carefully check out my grounding system. Coincidentally, I believe there are more injuries and deaths on sailboats from low hanging power lines than from lightning. Dave G. At 18:38 8/21/02, Michael Daly wrote: >I think you misread or misunderstood his comment. Masts are definitely >grounded to the water - the usual path is throught the keel - sailboat >keels are often lead. If the mast is stepped on deck, they use a heavy >wire to connect to the keel. If stepped on the keel, they make sure >there's a good electrical contact. If it is not grounded to the keel, >the current will find another path and can do a lot of damage. <snip> >Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote: - >Coincidentally, I believe there are more injuries and >deaths on sailboats from low hanging power lines than >from lightning. G'Day and you're spot on!!!!!!!! I've had two near misses in my life, One in a chartered sailboat with a commercial skipper who was having a bad night when his mast hit an 11kV line blacking out a whole suburb. The molten copper droplets ruined a good shirt and people holding on to the deck rail felt the 50Hz vibration - they were very lucky! I just hope noone was on life support in the suburb. No good. The other was when due to bad judgement I found myself in a kayak caught in open water in a major storm. For about 300 meters every time I touched the water with the right blade I got a tiny shock between my right hand and the paddle. I'm guessing it was electricity I don't really know, but it certainly felt like it. Got to shore in record time. If only I could paddle that fast normally. Both events within 3 years. So far with this sample of one the odds are getting very close to 50:50:~) We have great storms in Sydney and they always seem to happen on a Thursday night when we want to go paddling and have to go to the bar instead. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>>For about 300 meters every time I touched the water with the right blade I got a tiny shock between my right hand and the paddle. I'm guessing it was electricity I don't really know, but it certainly felt like it. Got to shore in record time. Errr, you were Supercharged??? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:38 p.m. 23/08/02 +1000, you wrote: >The other was when due to bad judgement I found myself in a kayak caught in >open water in a major storm. For about 300 meters every time I touched the >water with the right blade I got a tiny shock between my right hand and the >paddle. I'm guessing it was electricity I don't really know, but it >certainly felt like it. Got to shore in record time. If only I could paddle >that fast normally. Hi Peter, I work in high voltage lines and substations covering the porcelain with insulating silicone coating while energized. I think, I can try to explain what was going on with the tiny shock you felt. The air was charged electrically,so there was some voltage difference between your body due to induction in the air, and the water. The insulation maintaining that difference was the kayak material. Every time you touched the water with the paddle, current did flow through the shaft to bring your body to the water potential, therefore you felt the discharge. After the paddle left the water you charged yourself again due to voltage induced in the air, and so on. We feel that same thing everytime we let go of the metallic surface of the tower, and since our booths are insulated, we float (electrically speaking) and attain the induced voltage in air. When we hold the tower again we feel the small shock and we can even see the little spark light, from our fingers or through the clothes, if we lean against the tower steel elements. The bad thing about it (if I am right), is that the presence of clouds with high voltage kept the air where you were paddling electrically stressed, and if any section of air would brake and ionize the discharge might have followed. How much more stress was needed is hard to know, but certainly conditions were not safe, and it was good to get out as soon as possible, or before. Why did it happen only with the right side? I would like to make a guess that the positive high voltage source was high on your left side, so your left side was negatively charged and your right side positively charged. When you touched the water on the right side, electrons would flow to neutralize the positive charge. maybe somebody can complement this or suggest another explanation. Best Regards, Rafael el cayuco chief Mexico *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Kirk Olsen" <kolsen_at_imaginelan.com> > Way back when I read the newsgroup rec.boats.paddle there were several > threads about seeing lightning strikes down in canyons. One of the Discovery Channel's weather shows documented a case of a cyclist killed or injured (don't remember which) by lightning. He was in a broad valley IIRC. The most significant difference between this and a typical strike was that the storm system was several kilometers away on the other side of a mountain - he was in bright sunshine with blue sky overhead. The path that lighning finds is not necessarily the shortest or most obvious one around. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>>The most significant difference between this and a typical strike was that the storm system was several kilometers away on the other side of a mountain - he was in bright sunshine with blue sky overhead. The path that lighning finds is not necessarily the shortest or most obvious one around. That certainly can happen... I was hiking to a cliff dwelling in Navajo National Monument in Arizona when there was a lightning strike a couple of hundred feet ahead of us. Clear blue sky and sunshine. Must've been a cloud on the other side of the hill we never saw... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
writes: knelson_at_captivasoftware.com wrote: >So paddle with a metal cage around your kayak - solve the lighting >and the ballast problems all in one go! :-)" > >The man's a genius. Hope the major manufacturers read this, Michaels >future is secure. > He's a genius indeed if he can figure out how sell a kayak with a metal cage around a paddler that's used for ballast - the ballast weight needs to be below the water, and I for one am NOT going to paddle a kayak while trapped in a metal cage under water, even during a thunderstorm! (How's that for a scary thought!) Oh thou short sighted paddler, the metal cage underwater is shark protection! And don't you think Michael would provide an escape hatch in his design? A simple hydraulic lift apparatus at the bow & stern could take care of raising the cage for storms. So, Michael, can we expect an IPO shortly? Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Anyone read about the kayak Shark Shield in Paddler Magazine? Its electric. Jim et al > Oh thou short sighted paddler, the metal cage underwater is shark > protection! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <knelson_at_captivasoftware.com> > Oh thou short sighted paddler, the metal cage underwater is shark > protection! I'm glad someone sees the potential! > And don't you think Michael would provide an escape hatch in > his design? No - I roll, besides, if you're in a safe place, why would you want to leave? > So, Michael, can we expect an IPO shortly? No, I'm selling the patent to the highest bidder (on Ebay, of course) and then taking off for a tropical island. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Rafael and Paddlewise, my guess is that the "path of least resistance" was on Peter's right side. Influencing factors would be paddle shaft material and how wet it was on each side. A dry paddle made of a good insulating material on one side would conduct less well than the same material but damp on the other side. As a guess. Kind regards, Kevin D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rafael Mier Maza Why did it happen only with the right side? I would like to make a guess that the positive high voltage source was high on your left side, so your left side was negatively charged and your right side positively charged. When you touched the water on the right side, electrons would flow to neutralize the positive charge. maybe somebody can complement this or suggest another explanation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin wrote my guess is that the "path of least resistance" was on Peter's right side. Influencing factors would be paddle shaft material and how wet it was on each side. G'Day Kevin and Rafael, That would be my guess as well, especially as I would have been paddling without a rudder and might have been edging a fair bit. Perhaps I should repeat the experiment to check!! - shades of Benjamin Franklin!!:~) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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