"ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> wrote: >I know that generally in a cruising situation one with a Greenland paddle can keep up with or even be faster than paddlers with Europaddles (all else being equal); and the Greenland paddle is easier to learn to roll with and roll with. However, I was wondering whether a Greenland paddle has the sheer power to get you out of a jam, say if you suddenly find yourself being swept into a dangerous close pier by gale winds. Like Melissa, I haven't used my GP in dedicated surfing, but have used it for everything else. There are folks like Steve Scherrer or Greg Stamer who use their stick for pritnear everything. (If there's a deficiency, it's the paddler, not the paddle) The only place the GP is slower is in that first acceleration stroke or two when you're really trying to horse the boat. If you're 6" from the pier, you might want a wide-bladed paddle. If you're 6' from the pier, you can get away, even in gale winds, just as quickly with the "stick". >There is a reason why wide blades are used in whitewater and also generally in surfing. I'm of course still using a wide bladed paddle in whitewater, and also used it for a recent rough water rescue course. If I'd been on my own in the rough water, I'd have the GP; since I had students under my care, I felt I should use what I knew better (I've only been using a GP since early this season). I see plenty-skilled paddlers using their GP's in rough water, and ocean surf, and do just fine. If the 'stick' were causing them problems, I'm sure they'd switch back to the Euro paddle....it's not as if they were suffering for the sake of fashion of any sort. Besides, if you "bury" your hand on the stroke, you get so much blade area in the water that you don't notice much difference from the "bite" with a Euro paddle. Shawn GP's: not for those who like dry hands, though. (but, if you enjoy them for rolling, dry hands aren't really a concern) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> > Like Melissa, I haven't used my GP in dedicated surfing, but have used > it for everything else. There are folks like Steve Scherrer or Greg > Stamer who use their stick for pritnear everything. (If there's a > deficiency, it's the paddler, not the paddle) The only place the GP is > slower is in that first acceleration stroke or two when you're really > trying to horse the boat. If you're 6" from the pier, you might want a > wide-bladed paddle. If you're 6' from the pier, you can get away, even > in gale winds, just as quickly with the "stick". That was my basic question and thanks to all who replied like Shawn did just above especially his point later in his response about really digging the GP paddle down into the water to your hand to get a lot more power. Plus all who mentioned the sliding stroke. I think the digging the paddle fully in probably would work better for when you are indeed being pushed into something by wind or wakes and need to dig out in a hurry. I am not sure that the sliding stroke will give you quite the frantic effort and high cadence that you would get in the Shawn suggested method. The slide method seems to be more of a touring one for long distances when you have already hit a good speed and momentum. ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> wrote: >I think the digging the paddle fully in > probably would work better for when you are indeed being pushed into > something by wind or wakes and need to dig out in a hurry. This is good for the "quick hurry", when seconds count....and you're doing it for 4-5 strokes. >I am not sure that the sliding stroke will give you quite the frantic effort and high cadence that you would get in the Shawn suggested method. Actually, you can really dig in and accelerate hard, and go very fast with the sliding stroke. Imagine having a paddle that is effectively 9' long, with the blade size you're used to. What a way to really get the boat up to hull speed. >The slide method seems to be more of a touring one for long distances when you have already hit a good speed and momentum. I don't think I'd like to use it for long distances. When you're maintaining a pace, you really don't need as much power as the sliding stroke makes available...unless you're racing long distances. Apologies if I've described any of this poorly. I'm only a new student of Greenland paddling, but I really enjoy it so far. About all I can do is to advocate trying one for a couple of months. One day is really not enough to find out how a 'stick' will work for you. I had a lot of mental blocks against trying them....not that I didn't think they'd work, just didn't think they'd work for me. Boy, was I ever wrong. Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 9:40 AM -0700 9/16/02, Shawn Baker wrote: >The only place the GP is >slower is in that first acceleration stroke or two when you're really >trying to horse the boat. It is generally agreed that GPs don't have the ability to accelerate of a euro, but almost no GP users seem to think there is any difference once you are up to speed. What is it about GPs that when the force is applied to get the boat moving there is a noticeable difference, but when the force is applied to keep the boat moving there appears to be no difference? What changes between the time you first start and the time you are up to speed? Something must change to account for the difference in relative response to applied effort. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Nick Schade" <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> > What is it about GPs that when > the force is applied to get the boat moving there is a noticeable > difference, but when the force is applied to keep the boat moving > there appears to be no difference? What changes between the time you > first start and the time you are up to speed? When you accelerate, you need a higher force than when you are cruising. Since the total force generated by a GP is a tad lower than an EP, you can't accelerate as much. When up to speed, the force required to maintain the speed is within the range of the GP. With an EP, the force you generate while accelerating is greater, then you can back off a bit when at speed (with a GP you back off as well, but not as much). As far as the other stuff goes, I'm staying out of the argument for now. I find I prefer the $20 GP over my $400 EP and am comfortable even in the roughest conditions I've faced so far (not too rough, though). I can't easily explain why I have trouble with acceleration and not with reacting to a tough spot. I didn't feel this way at first and had to learn "something" to get comfortable with the GP in tougher conditions. What "something" is, I don't know. It's an inconsistancy I'm still trying to figure out. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/comments from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Nick, In my experience, the initial "start" often times causes the paddle to cavitate if you try too hard. You have to apply more power to overcome inertia than you do to keep the boat in motion once it is moving (Once again, inertia). A GP works more like a power boat propeller than a euro does, which is why canting the top edge of the blade forward increases your power. Finding the right "pitch" for the task at hand comes with practice and experimentation. I use an almost vertical stroke with little to no cant to get moving or to generate a quick burst while moving, and then adjust the paddle and blade angles as needed. The trick is to not pull so hard that you cause the paddle to cavitate. It's the same principle as a euro in that case -- a clean "catch" and a constant acceleration along the length of the stroke will generate the most force. It's just easier to make a GP cavitiate, which causes wasted effort when it happens. Good technique cures that. It's actually intuitive once you learn it. You find yourself making lots of adjustments without even thinking in a short time --- and every paddle is slightly different (I have about 8 of them, and it takes a minute or so to adjust from one to the other). There are some euros that this works with in a limited fashion as well, mostly non-dihedral blades, like a Lightning. Wayne -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Wayne Smith wsmith16_at_snet.net Check out my sea kayaking & homebrewing page: http://pages.cthome.net/wsmith16/home.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Schade" <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] GP Sufficient power? > At 9:40 AM -0700 9/16/02, Shawn Baker wrote: > >The only place the GP is > >slower is in that first acceleration stroke or two when you're really > >trying to horse the boat. > > It is generally agreed that GPs don't have the ability to accelerate > of a euro, but almost no GP users seem to think there is any > difference once you are up to speed. What is it about GPs that when > the force is applied to get the boat moving there is a noticeable > difference, but when the force is applied to keep the boat moving > there appears to be no difference? What changes between the time you > first start and the time you are up to speed? Something must change > to account for the difference in relative response to applied effort. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/comments from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Hi Nick, I think the difference is in the rate of strokes per minute. The acceleration of a Euro comes from a broad blade pushing a large amount of water. Since the narrow GP can't push the same amount of water, initial acceleration is less. I'm not sure if this is caused by less blade area or the high aspect blade shape of the GP since working out the m2 on curves are not one of my strong points. Comparing my Euro's (19cm x 44cm) and GP's (9cm x 92cm) I suspect the blade area is not much different so the shape of the blade probably accounts for it. Once the boat is moving the GP paddler will have a higher rate of strokes then a Euro paddler in obtaining the same speed. But the GP uses less force with each stroke thus the over all energy used is less. The speed I'm referring to depends on the paddlers "comfort zone" on how much effort they use to obtain a particular speed. By increasing the rate of strokes in the Euro you will of course always go faster then the GP since the Euro will be constantly accelerating until the max hull speed is reached, but effort used would still be higher and for cruising a balance between speed and effort is found to suit the individual paddler. When I say that my GP is just as fast as a my Euro once up to speed, I am referring to the effort needed in obtaining my comfortable cruising speed. The GP strokes per minute is higher but the energy used is less. No scientific prove here its just what I've noticed. Cheers Grant ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Schade" <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] GP Sufficient power? > It is generally agreed that GPs don't have the ability to accelerate > of a euro, but almost no GP users seem to think there is any > difference once you are up to speed. What is it about GPs that when > the force is applied to get the boat moving there is a noticeable > difference, but when the force is applied to keep the boat moving > there appears to be no difference? What changes between the time you > first start and the time you are up to speed? Something must change > to account for the difference in relative response to applied effort. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:23:33 +1200, Grant Glazer wrote: >Once the boat is moving the GP paddler will have a higher rate of strokes >then a Euro paddler in obtaining the same speed. But the GP uses less force >with each stroke thus the over all energy used is less. Maintaining any given speed requires the same amount of power so I don't see how the "over all energy used is less." I'm new to my GP but it seems to work for me. IE: my boat moves forward ;] --allan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 6:23 PM +1200 9/17/02, Grant Glazer wrote: >Hi Nick, > >>From somebody who knows zilch about physics: >I think the difference is in the rate of strokes per minute. The >acceleration of a Euro comes from a broad blade pushing a large amount of >water. Since the narrow GP can't push the same amount of water, initial >acceleration is less. I'm not sure if this is caused by less blade area or >the high aspect blade shape of the GP since working out the m2 on curves are >not one of my strong points. Comparing my Euro's (19cm x 44cm) and GP's >(9cm x 92cm) I suspect the blade area is not much different so the shape of >the blade probably accounts for it. > >Once the boat is moving the GP paddler will have a higher rate of strokes >then a Euro paddler in obtaining the same speed. But the GP uses less force >with each stroke thus the over all energy used is less. The speed I'm >referring to depends on the paddlers "comfort zone" on how much effort they >use to obtain a particular speed. By increasing the rate of strokes in the >Euro you will of course always go faster then the GP since the Euro will be >constantly accelerating until the max hull speed is reached, but effort used >would still be higher and for cruising a balance between speed and effort is >found to suit the individual paddler. > >When I say that my GP is just as fast as a my Euro once up to speed, I am >referring to the effort needed in obtaining my comfortable cruising speed. >The GP strokes per minute is higher but the energy used is less. No >scientific prove here its just what I've noticed. The energy required is quite likely more, but it does it in a way that is more comfortable for you. Do not mistake force for energy. Less force does not mean less energy. If you apply a lower force you may end up using more energy even if it feels easier during each stroke. And think about it. A boat going at a given speed has a certain amount of drag. This is not effected by the paddle. The whole reason for paddling is to overcome this drag. If there was no drag, you could stop paddling once you were up to speed. So if you have two paddlers side by side going the same speed in the same boat paddling at the same cadence, the net force applied to maintain speed must be somehow equivalent regardless of the paddle. If it weren't then something must change, either the boats, the speed or the cadence. Lets assume it is the cadence. How does this happen? If the two paddles have the same "traction" on the water then it would just be a matter of changing how fast you put your blade in and out of the water and not really something related to the blade shape or configuration. I.e. it is a technique issue. If there is something about how the blade moves through the water that lets one move faster than the other then it is the paddle itself and not technique. As a paddle slips through the water during a stroke (which all paddles do) it applies energy to the water. Moving the paddle faster increases the energy applied to the water by approximately the square of the paddle velocity. The energy going into the water is energy that could have gone to into greater speed for your kayak. By making a paddle that is easier to pull through the water you make the apparent force less, but you do it by increasing the energy added to the water at the expense of energy added to the kayak. There is benefit to decreasing the force on the paddle, but there are consequences. The paddle becomes less efficient i.e. you get less forward energy for the amount of energy applied to the paddle. If a paddle feels easier to pull on, it is a sure sign that the paddle itself is less efficient. Imagine pushing off the bottom, while this is quite hard (high force), it is almost 100% efficient. Imagine just swinging your paddle through the air, while this doesn't take a lot of force and may be quite comfortable, it is very inefficient at making a kayak go forward. Please understand that I don't mean to say a less efficient paddle is "bad", just that there are consequences for making the paddle more comfortable and there are easy things you can do that will have predictable results if you seek other performance characteristics. The goal is to find some balance between what is most comfortable and what is most efficient. We have control over both. There are often easy things you can do that make a paddle more comfortable without sacrificing efficiency and there often are easy things you can do make a paddle more efficient without sacrificing comfort. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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From: "Grant Glazer" <grantglazer_at_clear.net.nz> > Once the boat is moving the GP paddler will have a higher rate of strokes > then a Euro paddler in obtaining the same speed. This weekend I was paddling with eight other paddlers. I was the only one with a GP. One woman with a relatively large EP (a CD Edge bent shaft - too large for her) was paddling at a somewhat higher cadance and was no faster than me. I noticed the others were using similar stroke rates to mine. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: >It is generally agreed that GPs don't have the ability to accelerate of a euro, but almost no GP users seem to think there is any difference once you are up to speed. What is it about GPs that when the force is applied to get the boat moving there is a noticeable difference, but when the force is applied to keep the boat moving there appears to be no difference? There doesn't feel to be as much drag when the paddle is accelerated rapidly through the water. Possibly the potential for ventilation (and concurrent drag loss) is higher. In forward strokes, I believe Euro paddles are more forgiving of sloppy technique (which sometimes happens with hasty, impulsive strokes). With poor technique, GP's are more susceptible to flutter and ventilation. And GP's are much more forgiving of sloppy technique when sculling and rolling. Lower tendency to dive. Most Euro paddles have very little blade buoyancy (let alone buoyancy overall), and slice and dive much easier. You can argue that Euro paddles could be made with the same blade cross-section as GP's, but in general, this is not the case commercially. The Werner Kalliste and Double Diamond are a step in this direction, but still don't perform in the same manner as a Greenland paddle, which is still more buoyant. Obviously, I'm comparing wooden GP's to composite Euros, but a carbon Superior GP is more buoyant than any of the Mitchell or Cricket euros I've felt...... These generalizations can be drawn when most available Euro paddles generally have little buoyancy or positive blade displacement. Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Nick Schade" <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> > Moving the paddle faster > increases the energy applied to the water by approximately the square > of the paddle velocity. The energy going into the water is energy > that could have gone to into greater speed for your kayak. By making > a paddle that is easier to pull through the water you make the > apparent force less, but you do it by increasing the energy added to > the water at the expense of energy added to the kayak. There is > benefit to decreasing the force on the paddle, but there are > consequences. This is becoming more apparent to me with each day's paddle. I find the GP easier on the joints, but not on the muscles. With the EP, I'm sore and tired; the GP makes me less sore but more tired. A long day's paddle is quite fatiguing. I was leader on Sunday and the last kilometer to the beach found me paddling as the sweep. It's interesting to note that this is counter to what many have said in the past about GPs. They note the phenomenal efficiency compared to the EP and how long you can paddle. I am not seeing this. Overall, I'd rather save wear and tear on the joints (and paddle another day), but I'm not finding it restful over long distances compared to the EP. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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