On day trips my Mariner Elan seems to be very sensitive to loading. In 15 mph wind I can change from weathercocking to neutral just by moving 1 qt of water from under my front bungee to right behind my seat. That is about a 3 ft movement. My kayak does not have a sliding seat, nor rudder, nor skeg. I have spent a lot of time working out seat location and gear loading to keep the kayak neutral and still be able to enter kayak without having to slide in from the rear deck. The best I can do is to set up the kayak so it has a slight lee-cock quartering into the wind and a slight weather-cock when quartering downwind. Straight broadside seems to be neutral. I also noticed that I need more weight in front (or less in back) when paddling in waves compared to flat water(both at same wind speed) to get to the neutral handling point. I had similar experience with my Arctic Hawk. I am planning a multi-day camping trip with the Elan. I am concerned about loading the kayak so it starts out balanced and maintains the balance as I consume water and food. I can do some tests pre-trip to determine the initial loading but I do have a couple of questions. 1. Is this sensitivity to loading typical of other kayaks or am I just imagining things? (Several paddlers have said that they never have noticed this kind of thing. Some say they pay attention to not putting everything heavy in one end, but do not worry about loading same each time) 2. Do I need to test balance at each days expected water and food amount or can I just make sure I take approximate equal amounts of water out of front and back each day assuming I have a neutral kayak at the start of trip. 3. Do I even need to worry about exactly matching weight loss front and rear once I have a neutral starting load. (Change in water balance is small in comparison to total load in the kayak). This would save lots of testing and/or filling refilling water containers each day. 4. Is there a way of marking the kayak for a visual check of balance at different total loadings? I was thinking of front and back lines on kayak side that would be equal distance from water when kayak was balanced. Distance to water would change with loading, but would maintaining equal distance for the two lines indicate kayak should still be balanced? Being a mile out in open water with waves breaking over the kayak is not a good time to realize you messed up the loading. --- Mark Arnold --- mjamja_at_earthlink.net --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:57:53 -0600, "Mark Arnold" <mjamja_at_earthlink.net> said: I grew up racing tandem marathon flatwater canoes. As a starter point we had lines painted on the inside of the hull that you could see from the seat. For the bow seat this was about a foot back from the bow. You can see the water through the skincoat kevlar hulls so after getting both paddlers in the boat we would adjust the sliding seats so that the boat was a little under an inch bow heavy. That way once the canoe was up to speed it was travelling level. If we encountered strong winds we would adjust the sliding seats, while under way, so that we could continue to paddle with similar number of strokes on each side. Figuring this out is pretty easy, the boat acts like a giant weathervane, the "heavy" end will get turned into the wind. If you are turning into the wind the boats balance needs to be adjusted toward the stern. If you are turning downwind the boat's weight balance needs to be adjusted toward the bow. A boat that is set up overly bow heavy can be brutal to control. You can paddle forward for a while but once the boat starts to turn it will start to spin, unless the turn is stopped early on. A stern heavy boat will be easier to bring back into line but it will tend to wander. If you want an easy visual how the boat is set up you might paint small waterline marks at the bow and stern. One line, at each end, one for unloaded, and a second line for fully loaded. After a few test runs I'm sure you'll know just how you want the boat set up. Doing the lines on the outside would make you use a paddling partner to judge your trim, or you would have to do it without being in the boat. It won't take long figure out how you like the boat trimmed, after that it's just a quick glance to see if it's a differential that you like. Kirk -- Kirk Olsen kork4_at_cluemail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I put trim lines on my old Wenonah Jensen 18 like Kirk did, but later I glued a small bubble level next to the stern seat so I wouldn't need someone else to read the trim lines for me. You might try putting a small, temporary level on your deck until you get a feel for how best to load your boat, maybe mounting it to a piece of wood that will fit under your bungees. Just don't try to use it in waves! Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:45:34 -0600, "Chuck Holst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> said: > I put trim lines on my old Wenonah Jensen 18 like Kirk did, but later I > glued a small bubble level next to the stern seat so I wouldn't need > someone else to read the trim lines for me. The boats we had the trim lines in had the lines inside the boat. You can see the water through the hull. I've always liked watching the wave forms in the bow through the kevlar. > You might try putting a small bubble level With the bubble level I would expect it would take a while to build a wedge for the level to mount on, which would allow the bubble level to be in line with the neutral position of the hull, given a canted kayak deck. In a canoe I've found the lazy man's approach was throw a little water inside the boat on the bottom. It should stay in the middle while paddling but inch foward while at rest, this assumes a minimal rocker boat.... Kirk -- Kirk Olsen kork4_at_cluemail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, I think you are making this far more complicated than you need to. When in doubt "Read The Directions". According to the "Paddling" manual for your kayak: "When carrying a lot of gear it is usually best to balance it so the load behind the cockpit weighs nearly 2 times as much as the bow load. The room taken up for legs and feet make the bow load about 1-1/2 to 2 times farther from the center of buoyancy than the rear load. Therefore, putting equal weight in each end would sink the bow much more than the stern. The heavier the gear load the greater the percentage of that weight that should be in the stern. A kayak will track straighter and broach less in following seas if stern heavy because the stern keel is deeper in the water than the bow. Weathercocking in side winds is intensified when a kayak is more heavily loaded. Placing the heaviest weight in the rear helps decrease weathercocking. Even with the bow trimmed higher, turning a loaded kayak into a strong wind is not nearly as difficult as turning an empty one can be. The added gear weight prevents the ends from blowing around so easily. It is not necessary to carry a balance scale along with you to pack your boat. Approximations are fine, I just put all the heaviest bags, water, and fuel in the back and the lightest bags forward. When loading a kayak, also make an effort to keep the heaviest items, such as water, closer to the cockpit (but behind you) in order to retain as much responsiveness to the paddle as possible. Separate your gear into bags containing compact heavy items and bulkier lightweight stuff. Put the densest items (like water) just behind the cockpit and the less dense bags out towards the ends and in the bow. With a small gear load always fill up any space you are not using for storage with partially inflated float bags to maximize flotation. Just before entering any loaded kayak, check to see that it floats on an even keel (side to side) or you will probably discover that it has a penchant for turning towards the high side. Turn over a gear bag or move some heavy items, like water, more to the high side." To this I would add: With a gear load it will take far more weight shift to effect the trim than with an empty kayak and given the space available it is hard to make the gear load too stern heavy. If after loading a kayak stern heavy it is still weathercocking don't hesitate to put a couple of 2 liter coke/water bottles way back in the stern or do something else that moves the heaviest weight further to the back. About 2/3 of the way through the same "Paddling" manual are directions to the easiest ways for "Combating Weatherhelm" if you find it affecting you. The manual can be found in the "Manuals" section of the website below. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Matt wrote, > > Mark, I think you are making this far more complicated than you need to. > > When in doubt "Read The Directions". According to the "Paddling" manual for > > your kayak: I greatly resent Matt's "Read The Directions" comment. I have always taken great pride in the fact that I read all the manuals for my equipment and often go back and re-read instructions even when doing routine tasks. I have read the Owners manual and the Paddling manual multiple times. In fact it was partially the info on Mariner's site that prompted my question. If as described, weathercocking increases with loading, I wondered if losing weight from water and food consumption might not only warrant rearrangement to the original front back ratio, but might require a different ratio since a lighter kayak would not have the same tendency to weathercock as the fully loaded one. Water and food consumption could reduce load in my case by 60% (not total weight of kayak+paddler+load but % gear loaded). >From Matt's and others comments it seems I should not worry about trying to continually change the back to front load ratio as total kayak load declines. In fact I should not even need to exactly match back/front load changes. All I need do is to stay close to original ratio (which should be around 2:1). Even though people indicated my concern was unfounded, I do not think I needed to be told to just go back and read my instructions. --- Mark Arnold --- mjamja_at_earthlink.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I apologize to Mark for the "Read the Directions" comment. I meant no offense by it. From what he wrote (and how others were going along with his meticulously trying to maintain a level trim) it looked to me that he might benefit from reading that part of the manual again more closely because it is hard to error on the side of "too heavily loaded in the stern" when the load is heavy. Loading a kayak with a stern heavy trim is the best thing you can do to improve most heavily loaded kayaks handling. The point I wanted to make was that there is almost no downside to doing so (other than that it is hard to do given the relative spaces available--and a slight decrease in top speed). Not only will weathercocking be reduced but broaching in following seas will also be reduced. Most people find those two characteristics to be the major problems in controlling their kayaks. Another benefit of a stern down trim when heavily loaded is stiffer tracking. This is a benefit with a heavy gear load (with its greater tendency to yaw due to the mass out near the ends) but often stiff tracking is a liability when trying to turn up into a wind when a kayak is empty. Since the mass of the gear in the bow also keeps the wind from blowing the bow back as much on the crest of a whitecap (and the stiffer tracking is more than compensated for by the increased tendency of all that mass out at the end of the kayak to continue its yawing motion once the yaw is set in motion by turning in the trough) turning into a high wind is not nearly the same problem it can be with a empty kayak. An empty kayak trimmed too much to the stern and/or one that has too much windage forward and/or one that is too stiff tracking will compound the difficulty of turning into a strong wind. All of these things hurt an unladen kayaks ability to turn into a strong wind far more than they hurt a loaded kayak. That is why I added the comment (to what was written in the manual) to even shift heavy weight (like water) further to the back of the stern compartment if one is still experiencing weathercocking after loading the kayak stern heavy (but with the greatest mass right behind the paddler as I advocated in the manual to help maintain responsiveness with a heavy load). Of course, with a light load some of that gear weight should go into the bow to help keep it from being blown around so don't put all the gear in the back. Keeping the same trim as the kayak is progressively loaded will likely still result in a little more weatherhelm than it had when empty. Also when the load is heavy a given amount of weight in the same off center position can't change the trim nearly as much as it can when the kayak is unladen. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > Date: 2/22/2003 4:14:03 > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Loading & handling > > I apologize to Mark for the "Read the Directions" comment. I meant no > offense by it. > My apologies also to Matt. It was a long day and I over reacted. He just hit one of my buttons. For what its worth: Matt's "shifting some of the water further back" idea did help. The test paddle I did showed that it was almost exactly a 2:1 weight ratio that produced the best handling. I took a fresh look at how I was packing and found a few items that I could switch between front and back that both increased weight in the rear and reduced weight in the front. With that adjustment I was able to keep the initial loading rear heavy (around the 2:1 ratio I had before) even with a little water in front of my feet. With less starting weight in the front and more weight loss from the front (from water consumed) it looks like I can stay near that 2:1 ratio for all the days I paddle without having to refill water bottles with sea water or even rearrange any gear. --- Mark Arnold --- mjamja_at_earthlink.net --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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