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From: Shawn Baker <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:05:00 -0800 (PST)
Hello Ashton and Leska,

allaha <allaha_at_earthlink.net> wrot:                    
> Got Seattle Sports brand, Hydro Venture Glacier Clear Dry Bags, small
& medium sizes. Filled them about 1/3 with emergency fleece clothing in

case of dunking, rest of space air. About 1/2 hour after sealing, air
has deflated _at_ 50%. Bags limp squishy soft --

It's more common practice to put something soft (like your fleece) on
top of other gear in a dry bag so that all extra air can be squeezed
out while sealing.

Thought being that if the bag is compressed, air will try to squeeze
out (out the mouth of the bag) and anywhere air can get out, water can
get in.  If all air is already squeezed out, no water will get in, as
there won't be any spots in the rolled seal that are "opened" by the
passing air.

>Is this quick air deflation normal? ???

Not really, but they're not really made to hold pressurized air.

>Bought them for dual purpose: floatation and keeping gear dry.

Your average dry bag won't hold enough air to work as adequate
flotation.  Not that gear in a dry bag won't displace water--it's just
that you should try to fill all your floodable space with a _float_
bag.

Keep using the drybag--a float bag will fill in around your drybags.

Consider that a stack of camping cookpots has 0 buoyancy value.  Put
the same pots and pans in a drybag, and you probably have 10 lbs. of
buoyancy (even with the air squeezed out of the drybag around them). 
Same with your fleece, wet in the kayak, it has nearly no buoyancy (or
warmth!), but in a drybag, 2 or 3 lbs.

>Wondering if the brand is bad 

They're a reputable manufacturer.  Make sure you're sealing them
correctly.  Only fill the bag 2/3-3/4 full, and make sure you get the
closure strips to match flat (your seal is in the vinyl-to-vinyl
contact in the mouth of the bag.  Make sure you get at least 3 folds. 
Once it's rolled and clipped, squeeze the bag--do you hear air
whooshing out?  If not, you have a good seal.  If you slowly lose air
after a few hours, you probably won't pick up much water at all in the
event of a dunking, either.

>If air seeps out so easily, does that mean water will seep (or
flood!?) 
IN just as easily?

Sort of--like I mentioned before, if it rushes out easily, water can
rush in easily.  If a tiny bit of air seeps out, a tinier bit of water
will seep out--air will travel up and down through the rolls in the bag
to come out.  Water is more constrained by gravity--it might get into
the bottom of the first roll, but won't as easily travel upward to the
top of that roll, or the next, or the next.  Maybe a teensy bit by
capillary action, but not enough to soak your dry things.

Enough of this lengthy diatribe on dry bags.  Consider buying float
bags.

It's pretty cold water out--make sure you're dressed for immersion, not
the air temperature.  Unless it's the cold water that has kept your new
Zydecos off the water, in which case, smart thinking!!

Safe paddling, and enjoy!!!

Shawn

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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:57:33 -0800
I agree with the throng __here:__    complete deflation of drybags produces
the most watertight package, all right.  It also minimizes their volume for
packing in tight places.

And disagree slightly __here:__   although I would not rely on gear-filled
drybags for all my flotation, they do provide flotation buoyancy, and their
leak rate is very slow.  I always complete filling a bulkheaded compartment
by inflating a genuine air bag, both to ensure no load shift, and to
maximize the flotation.  Finally, I avoid drybagging hard-edged stuff
because that invites a puncture.  Most of the time, it is stuff that can get
wet anyway:  pots and pans, stove, etc.  I also do not drybag my tent.
Minimizing drybagging makes for better ability to fit stuff into small
holes.

One last piece of iconoclasm:   for years I have put all my on-shore dry
stuff, including sleeping bag, in a large dry bag, instead of two or three
smaller ones.  This has worked because my boats have very large hatches in
the rear, and cross-sections that make the single large dry bag fit very
snugly.  This arrangement makes better use of space than a couple of
side-by-side bags.  And, when it's time to haul gear to camp, the carrying
is quicker and dryer.

I use a separate dry bag, held in the cockpit for quick access, for
on-the-water dry stuff if I need more insulation.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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From: al.m <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:24:58 -0800
> And disagree slightly __here:__   although I would not rely on gear-filled
> drybags for all my flotation, they do provide flotation buoyancy, and
their
> leak rate is very slow.  I always complete filling a bulkheaded
compartment
> by inflating a genuine air bag,

Here it becomes more academical, but yes - anything lighter than same
vlolume of water (i.e. almost any gear item)  will provide *some* buyoancy
when placed in a dry-bag (and there is always additional air pockets between
the items).  That's elementary physics.  Of course, it may not be enough -
that's why *float-bags* are neeed, especially in kayaks without bulkheads.

> I also do not drybag my tent.

Well... I think dome-tent poles should be dry-bagged.  Their metal sleeves
are not aluminum and get rusty. Dave, do you dry-bag a Thermarest pad? It's
heavy, provides little floatation, and bulky like hell, and becomes even
more bulky in a dry-bag, not to mention that a special size (narrow) is
needed; they are available narrow, though.  And it dries fast.

> Minimizing drybagging makes for better ability to fit stuff into small >
holes. > One last piece of iconoclasm:   for years I have put all my
on-shore dry > stuff, including sleeping bag, in a large dry bag, instead of
two or three > smaller ones.  This has worked because my boats have very
large hatches in > the rear, and cross-sections that make the single large
dry bag fit very
> snugly.

Yes, it's good if the boat is wide, and should work in a hardshell.  But in
a folding kayak I find it more difficult than 2-3 smalller bags - lots of
ribs, nooks etc inside.  Btw, those items that tolerate water, - food cans
etc, can be placed in a nylon bag for easier loading-unloading, if for some
reason they can't find place in a drybag.

Alex.

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From: <WildConect_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:38:48 EST
Couple of points not mentioned yet--for those of us having smaller hatches, 
thus forcing us to use multiple smaller bags, I use a large mesh bag with 
shoulder straps for humping the smaller bags to and from camp and boat.

I have also found that nylon bags with a urethane-coating on the inside 
produces less friction--and slides in and out of the compartment more easily 
that the vinyl bags.  When I first started out I bought some vinyl bags, 
within a short time they developed pin holes from all the friction.  Vinyl 
works well for open boats, but the nylon is better of sea kayaks.  If you 
find that the bags stuffed into the very ends are hard to retrive, tie a cord 
to them and lay it out back towards the hatch opening.  When it is time to 
unpack, just pull the cord and the bag will follow.

One final point--I use a small piece of nylon (5 foot square) spread out on 
the ground to organize my gear before loading.  This reduces the amount of 
sand and other "foreign" matter getting into the compartment.  I have also 
found that putting everything on the nylon also helps me keep control of 
everything, reducing the opportunity for leaving something behind.

The nylon "tarp" (nothing fancy) and the mesh bag are stashed last, but not 
over the lunch and other things expected to be needed during the day.  The 
tarp can come in handy at break time too.

John Browning
Milwaukee, WI
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 01:13:12 -0500
From: "al.m" <al.m_at_3web.net>

> do you dry-bag a Thermarest pad? 

I consider the Thermarest a low-priority item when it comes to keeping it
absolutely dry, so I use an OR stuff sack.  They are more or less waterproof,
though not as good as, say, Sealline kayak bags.  So it keeps the splashes
and rain and stuff off, but it won't stay really, really dry if it gets
submerged.  Plus, they are available in Camp Rest sizes.

> It's
> heavy, provides little floatation, and bulky like hell, and becomes even
> more bulky in a dry-bag, 

I wouldn't underestimate the floatation value of a compressed Thermarest.


Mike
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From: Keith W Robertson <news_at_fachwen.org>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 12:07:42 +0000
I am very pleased with my Ortlieb compression dry bags. You seal them as on
any conventional dry bag - but then you can get all the air out as there is
a tiny air valve near the bottom of the bag. I use a small one to hold my
sleeping bag and it now compresses to about half the size it used to be in a
conventional dry bag - making packing of the kayak much easier. Same goes
for the XS ones I uses for clothing.

http://www.ortlieb.de/

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From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_optonline.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:50:10 -0500
We've been using Seal Line Tapered bags on overnights for several years.
They have a valve at the tip that can be opened for compression.  The tapers
allow stuffing the bow and stern very efficiently. We use them for softer,
lighter stuff like sleeping bags and clothing.  The heavier stuff is packed
nearer the cockpit.

Bob Volin

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From: Joan Spinner <jspinner_at_peoplepc.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 22:44:58 -0500
This is fine for the guys but for us gals it is a problem, like putting all
the canned stuff in one bag. It is REALLY hard to carry that much weight, even
over your shoulder.





<< for years I have put all my


on-shore dry > stuff, including sleeping bag, in a large dry bag, instead of


two or three > smaller ones.  >>





Joan





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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:41:11 -0800
Joan Spinner" <jspinner_at_peoplepc.com> wrote:

[re:  my admission that I pack all my dry on-shore clothing and sleeping bag
in one large drybag]

>> This is fine for the guys but for us gals it is a problem, like putting
all
the canned stuff in one bag. It is REALLY hard to carry that much weight,
even
over your shoulder. >>

Well, Joan, I could not carry all the canned stuff at once, either.  The
clothing sack is bulky, not heavy.  The cans fit wherever in the yak, and
only what is needed that night gets hauled out of the yak to camp.  On
longer trips (2 weeks), it is the fresh veggies/fruits that are cumbersome.
One trip I was "veggie man" and had about 80 lbs of goodies:  four heads of
cabbage, 20 lbs of oranges and 20 lbs of spuds, some zucchini, maybe 20 lbs
of apples, and the like.  Good to eat on day 10, but a nasty task hauling
out of bear-reach each night.

Someone else asked if I drybag my Thermarest -- nope.  If it gets wet, a
half hour open under the tarp makes it dry enough.  Usually, packing things
like the Thermarest "high" inside a bulkheaded compartment keeps them out of
the slosh down below, which never amounts to more than a cup max., so I have
a dry Thermarest almost all the time.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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From: <Rcgibbert_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Do your dry bags deflate air
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:42:41 EST
In a message dated 2/22/2003 2:40:29 PM Central Standard Time, 
WildConect_at_aol.com writes:


> Couple of points not mentioned yet--for those of us having smaller hatches, 
> thus forcing us to use multiple smaller bags, I use a large mesh bag with 
> shoulder straps for humping the smaller bags to and from camp and boat.
> 

I do that sometimes, however, my favorite is to put all my little dry bags in 
a line, slide the G stick through the circular roll and carry them coolie 
style to camp. End of story. Works with a Euro paddle but has to be taken 
apart at center .

Have a great day,
Rob G

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