I've built a Pygmy Arctic Tern and paddled it for a year, and I love it. I've never felt the deck seemed weak, despite only one layer of glass. I treat it about as I would treat a fiberglass kayak - I don't sit on it, I don't stand on it. Regarding CLC v. Pygmy, I think Pygmy's multi-chined decks are more attractive: by using several panels, they are able to get a deck with positive sheer (the curve between the stem and the stern, like a banana). Try holding a sheet of stiff paper in an arch, like a deck, and now try to bend it on the other axis at the same time. I think John Lockwood has taken the stitch and glue method farther. CLC boats seem to be rather overbuilt in the deck area when I've tried them - too much wood and too many mechanical fasteners, not enough reliance on the strength of the fiberglass-wood composite. A big reason for extra glass around the cockpit, I think, is because the boats are essentially a very strong, efficient composite tube with a notch cut in them (like cutting a notch in a straw)- the cockpit opening unfortunately considerably weakens the form. I do find that all of the Pygmy boats are WAY too roomy, however. They really seem to be designed for large people carrying lots of gear. I appreciate the foot room (I am 6'-0" and with size 12 feet), but I had to add the extra knee braces to make the keyhole small enough to be comfortable, and the boat is pretty beamy (23", I think). I wish they would design a low-volume Arctic Tern... If you're thinking of building a boat, get as many reviews from people of a similiar size and build. A boat that somebody who's 5'-8" with size 8 feet swears by might be very uncomfortable for a lerger person. Severn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Regarding CLC v. Pygmy, I think Pygmy's multi-chined decks are more >attractive: by using several panels, they are able to get a deck with >positive sheer (the curve between the stem and the stern, like a banana). >Try holding a sheet of stiff paper in an arch, like a deck, and now try to >bend it on the other axis at the same time. With a curved deck you can still get a sheer line though the centreline won't "dip". If it does you either have the ends too high or the deck too low to get into the cockpit. A curved deck is made up of (usually) 4 pieces, one on the foredeck, one each side of the cockpit and one aft deck. With this number of pieces it is easy to follow the sheer of the deckline. It should also be stronger being curved. It is simple to build as well, as you simply - glue, drop a piece of ply over the hull, tie it down and cut it back to size after the glue has set. No accurate cutting of panels needed. >I think John Lockwood has taken the stitch and glue method farther. In what way? >CLC boats seem to be rather overbuilt in the deck area when I've tried >them - too much wood and too many mechanical fasteners, There's no need for mechanical fasteners as the deck is gluing down on to the sheer clamp giving plenty of glue area to cover up any inaccuracies. Run a bit of glass tape along the outside join and its done. >A big reason for extra glass around the cockpit, I think, is because the >boats are essentially a very strong, efficient composite tube with a notch >cut in them (like cutting a notch in a straw)- the cockpit opening >unfortunately considerably weakens the form. Glass round the cockpit, why? Do CLC do that? The cockpit rim stiffens that hole up and makes it the strongest part of the deck. >I do find that all of the Pygmy boats are WAY too roomy, however. Isn't that the way most Northern American boats are designed? I make sure my designs are for "normal" sized people. I was talking to a builder of a Pygmy boat this weekend and that was his complaint. He's just about finished one of my designs. >If you're thinking of building a boat, get as many reviews from people of >a similiar size and build. Most definitely. Alex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Somebody (who I've lost track of in the shuffle) wrote: >Regarding CLC v. Pygmy, I think Pygmy's multi-chined decks are more >attractive: by using several panels, they are able to get a deck with >positive sheer (the curve between the stem and the stern, like a >banana). Try holding a sheet of stiff paper in an arch, like a deck, >and now try to bend it on the other axis at the same time. Alex responded: >>>>>With a curved deck you can still get a sheer line though the centreline won't "dip". If it does you either have the ends too high or the deck too low to get into the cockpit. A curved deck is made up of (usually) 4 pieces, one on the foredeck, one each side of the cockpit and one aft deck. With this number of pieces it is easy to follow the sheer of the deckline.<Snip>>>> The real reason for the Pygmy's multi-chine deck is to allow the paddle stroke to be nearer the kayak by cutting off the knuckle busting corner that sticks up and out further if those small deck panels are not present. The reason I know this for a fact is because I suggested to John Lockwood that he do it this way for that reason sometime between 1993 and 1995. Later John came by the shop one day when another friend of ours just happened to be there with a kayak he built (along the lines of our Mariner II) with him that had this feature on it. We showed John what I had meant, how it looked and how it worked that day. This would have been about 1995. My brother Cam had first used this extra chine in the Coaster prototype's plywood deck about 10 years earlier. I'm unaware of this being done previously but somebody probably did it that I'm not aware of. John converted his Goldeneye using this extra deck chine and introduced his Osprey model in 1996. BTW, there only needs to be two panels to get a longitudinally curved deck center line. The transverse curved decks of the CLC boats extend out beyond the side panels making the deck hull joint stick out even farther (to have to be reached over) but the curved deck did lower that seam some in the paddle area so it wasn't both higher and wider as it had been in the original Pygmy (the Queen Charlotte). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Matt] >The real reason for the Pygmy's multi-chine deck is to allow the paddle >stroke to be nearer the kayak by cutting off the knuckle busting corner that >sticks up and out further if those small deck panels are not present. I don't know how you design it to get "knuckle busting corners" in (OK, CLC do). Draw a curve through the line that the multi-panel takes and it will be lower all the way unless the original design had the sides too high which seems to be a criticism that I keep hearing from builders of North American designs. I know of one person who nearly halved the height of the sides of the second (CLC) boat he built. [Matt] >>The transverse curved decks of the CLC boats extend out beyond the side panels making the deck hull joint stick out even farther (to have to be reached over) but the curved deck did lower that seam some in the paddle area so it wasn't both higher and wider as it had been in the original Pygmy (the Queen Charlotte).<<<< Again a design "flaw". There's no need to put a piece on the outside of the top of the sides. Because of the sheer clamp inside I know I can "grind" down the deck/side join a lot and get a curve there. Again, another builder here in NZ specifically complaining about the height of the Pygmy design. >BTW, there only needs to be two panels to get a longitudinally curved deck >center line. >Alex responded: > >>>>>With a curved deck you can still get a sheer line though the centreline > >won't "dip". If it does you either have the ends too high or the deck too >low to get into the cockpit. A curved deck is made up of (usually) 4 >pieces, one on the foredeck, one each side of the cockpit and one aft deck. Four pieces because 2 sheets at 2.44 metres per sheet (8x4 feet sheets) will be shorter than 5+ metres which is the average length of a sea boat. Four because it is easier and more economical to put one narrow piece each side of the cockpit. Alex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[AMF] > > > A curved deck is made up of (usually) 4 > > >pieces, one on the foredeck, one each side of the cockpit and one aft >deck. [WhiteRabbit] >Not sure on other CLC designs, but the Chesepeake 18 has only three pieces, >one aft deck that comes partway up the cockpit, one foredeck that extends >about from my hips to within ~2 feet of the bow, and a small bow piece that >fills in the remaining part of the deck. Which is inefficient use of plywood. However I can be accused of the same as I put in a lowered, flat, 400 mm aft deck for the rudder to land on and control lines to exit from under the curved aft deck. That means there's a cutout piece of ply (looking for something to be done with) from where the cockpit goes. Alex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Alex Ferguson a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz responded: >>>>>>Draw a curve through the line that the multi-panel takes and it will be lower all the way unless the original design had the sides too high which seems to be a criticism that I keep hearing from builders of North American designs. I have size 12 feet and I want the deck to be higher and wider out where my feet stick up. A low flattened transverse curve does not fit the curve of my toes nearly as well (and also stay out of my way during the paddle stroke). The multi-chine deck of a regular Pygmy Arctic Tern fits me (6'1" x 195 pounds) just about right. Those with smaller feet may be more suited to a lower deck but they will also be cutting into the gear storage room and it is likely to make for a wetter ride in waves and the kayak may weatherhelm more. However it will likely be easier (all other things being equal) to turn into a high wind. Turning into a wind is a characteristic even more important to a smaller paddler. This is the main reason I brought up the Arctic Tern 14 in the first place. It is a smaller quicker turning kayak than the Osprey (being considered) and is likely to be more suitable in fit and windage as well for a smaller paddler (at least if she can do without as much gear room. I advise married women to get a smaller kayak and then her husband will have to carry a heavier gear load and then be easier to keep pace with. Most husbands would prefer to take the bulk of the gear if it would speed up their partner. There are occasional exceptions where the wife is the stronger paddler. One guy who kept falling back on a long Baja trip was blaming his very wide kayak. He switched with his partner one day to use her sleeker kayak. He said he wasn't quite as far behind that day. I previously wrote: "BTW, there only needs to be two panels to get a longitudinally curved deck center line." Due to what was being discussed in context before (just below) I misinterpreted >Regarding CLC v. Pygmy, I think Pygmy's multi-chined decks are more >attractive: by using several panels, they are able to get a deck with >positive sheer (the curve between the stem and the stern, like a banana). >Try holding a sheet of stiff paper in an arch, like a deck, and now try to >bend it on the other axis at the same time. Alex's comments (below here) to be talking about the number of panels of plywood needed to make the foredeck curve longitudinally at its centerline. >Alex responded: > >>>>>With a curved deck you can still get a sheer line though the centreline >won't "dip". If it does you either have the ends too high or the deck too >low to get into the cockpit. A curved deck is made up of (usually) 4 >pieces, one on the foredeck, one each side of the cockpit and one aft deck. While that can certainly make for a curved sheerline, the centerline will be a series of straight lines between each (transverse) arched panel no matter how many you have used since the plywood panels are only going to bend in one direction at a time. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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