Our boats presently go atop our car on a Yakima rack (with Mako saddles), and each is secured with a pair of Yakima's nicely made, very convenient, if slightly pricey Yakima Bow/Stern Tiedowns. This works quite well on our late 80s Honda, as it has two metal loops behind each bumper, on the car's underside, each being roughly behind the headlights/taillights. Not only is it easy to hook the brass snap-hooks of the Yakima tiedows to these metal loops, but their position is almost ideal in that the Tiedowns come straight down off the bow/stern without almost zero deflection from vertical. But, all good things must come to an end. The Honda is getting up there in years, and too many miles and too many Northeast winters have taken their toll on body and engine alike. It's time to look for another vehicle, be it new or (late model) used. So here's my question: "Where the heck do you tie your bow and stern down to on newer vehicles (say vehicles manufactured in the last 4 or 5 years)?" We're looking at wagons and car-based SUVs primarily (**). Most current generation vehicles, these classes included, have only one, or at best two, of the undercarriage metal loops. I assume these are really there for tie-down during shipping, and typically are configured one-in-the-front / one-in-the-rear / each on opposite sides of the vehicle. The convenient tie-down mechanism of days gone by seems to have largely vanished. Heck, even when looking at REAL SUVs (gotta use caps when talking about the genuine article), don't routinely have four-corner underside loops for tying things down. So, to be more specific, how do people here in PaddleWise tie down their boats bow and stern when car-topping them on newer autos? I'm really interested in A) how to do it conveniently, and B) how to do it in a manner that doesn't wind up putting excessive sideways force on the boats that will tend to pull them away from the saddles. Any help and advice, except for make the Honda last a little longer (can't do that, though I wish I could), is greatly appreciated. ** - Before you crucify me for looking at an SUV, things that largely deserve the contempt they receive, let me say that the car-based models (e.g., the Honda Pilot and Toyota Highlander) mitigate many of the problems inherent to SUVs that make them target of widespread complaints. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:31 AM 5/23/2003 -0400, jwd_at_acm.org wrote: > SNIP >So, to be more specific, how do people here in PaddleWise tie down their >boats bow and stern when car-topping them on newer autos? I'm really >interested in A) how to do it conveniently, and B) how to do it in a >manner that doesn't wind up putting excessive sideways force on the >boats that will tend to pull them away from the saddles. I faced this problem several years ago when I had to replace my minivan. When I drive anywhere (except down to the end of my street for a local paddle), I tie my boats to both the racks and then use front and rear tie-downs. Well, my new '97 Grand Caravan didn't have a way to do that. In the past I had used the vehicle-to-ship tie-down loops you described, so I thought the easiest way to go was to duplicate those. In the rear it was relatively straight forward. I don't have any welding abilities so I wound up doing the following: I got two pieces of aluminum angle, about 1.5"x1.5"x8 or so inches long. I drilled holes so I could take the nuts off the rear bumper mount bolts, slip on these angles and reinstall the nuts. The angles where then mounted vertical and extended about 1.5" below the bumper. I had to notch the plastic bumper to accomplish this. Near the bottom of the angles I installed eyes. I use tie-down lines I made myself and the ends have snap hooks, so now I was all set in the rear. In the front I had to get more creative. My front bumper really curves and then there are not any really good attach points underneath. The answer came in my grill area. I found that there were holes in the frame in the grill openings where I could install eyes. When I installed the eyes, I used "fender" washers, which are oversized washers that helped distribute the load over a greater area since the frame is not that beefy in this area. Again, my bow tie-down lines have snap hooks so I'm all set. In use, I run the bow and stern tie-down lines through the brackets on my boats that attach the carry toggles. When the boats are on my van, the stern toggles are aft of the rear of the vehicle and the tie-down line goes straight from vehicle attach point to kayak attach point without a problem. In the bow this is not true. The bow toggles on my boats sit a little aft of the front of the van so when the bow lines are taut, the line rubs the front of the van. I solved this problem by slippingcushions over the lines in the areas where they rub the van. I happend to get the cylindrical cushions from a weight-lifting bench that was being discarded, but other solutions would work as well. This set-up has worked well for the past 6 years and thousands of miles. When I replace this van, I'll probably take the same approach on the replacement vehicle. If you'd like to see photos of this set-up, contact me back channel and I take a few digi shots this weekend (between rain showers :-( ). Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
jwd_at_acm.org wrote: So here's my question: "Where the heck do you tie your bow and stern down to on newer vehicles (say vehicles manufactured in the last 4 or 5 years)?" How about the roof rack? If you have two metal bars running lengthwise on either side of the car (joined to the roof, above the doors) you can tie the bow and stern lines to the front and the back ends of each bar. Emile Zen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:24 AM 5/23/2003 -0700, Emile Zen wrote: >How about the roof rack? If you have two metal bars running lengthwise on >either side of the car (joined to the roof, above the doors) you can tie >the bow and stern lines to the front and the back ends of each bar. > >Emile Zen Be very, very careful with this idea. I found, through investigation, that the roof rack alone, on my Olds mini-van, is not adequate for holding a kayak by itself. They can rip right off the roof. In my case, tieing down, front and back, independent of the rack is imperative. Dave G. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Gorjup <dgorjup_at_cox.net> wrote: the roof rack alone, on my Olds mini-van, is not adequate for holding a kayak by itself. They can rip right off the roof. Thanks for the warning. So what happens if your car has those aerodynamic-looking bumpers, affixed to the body to appear contiguous, and there is nothing to tie down to? I think I missed one of the replies to this inquiry. Emile --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've yet to come across a vehicle that does not have 'tow loops' welded to the car's frame in both the front and back of the vehicle...usually two, one to each side in front, and one or two in back. I would not use a bumper to tie down a racked yak or canoe, or a stack of playwood or a mattress or anything capable of catching air like a foil or a sail. Bumpers are designed to crumple and absorb shock, they are routinely abused in minor bumps and can become compromised suprisingly easily.... Tie off to the tow loops on your frame. Our Subaru Forester has these, we use the same rack and tie downs as noted in the original post. No problems. -W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Emile Zen wrote: > Dave Gorjup <dgorjup_at_cox.net> wrote: > the roof rack alone, on my Olds mini-van, is not adequate for holding a > kayak by itself. They can rip right off the roof. > > Thanks for the warning. So what happens if your car has those aerodynamic-looking bumpers, affixed to the body to appear contiguous, and there is nothing to tie down to? I think I missed one of the replies to this inquiry. A. Attach rings to frame parts under/behind the bumpers. I did this with 2002 Caravan. B. For front (rear is relatively easy) you can get very good separation by using the fender bolts at the edge of the hood. Open hood, undo bolt, attach web strap with grommet, have padded bit of strap come out hood crack. Attach tie-down to that loop. I haven't done this. C. Trailer hitch can be used at rear. GaryJ -- Director, Family Canoeing Centre Recreational canoeing courses for the whole family. +--------------------------------+ | /"\ | | \ / | | X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | | / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS | +--------------------------------+ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The best tie down location on my old Saturn SL was under the steel frame under the front edge of the hood in the center. I use vinyl coated 1/8" stainless steel lifeline (which is much thinner than regular line or rope) and easily ran it through the gap between the front edge of the hood and the rear edge of the front bumper. I threaded it under the steel frame member around the hood latch and back up the other side of the center frame (so that the lifeline entry points were about 1 foot apart, centered on the front of the hood. Putting this on the vehicle takes less than 5 minutes, having to open the hood, thread, then close the hood. I did something similar on the rear edge of the hood on my old (plastic bodied) Pontiac Transport van. I suggest that the line run forward somewhat from the kayaks down to the vehicle anchor point so that it would not let the boats slide backward if the rack detached. The other big advantage is that the stainless cable is much stronger than rope and doesn't stretch. I bought a hand swaging tool to make loops at the ends and keep a number of lengths to fit different boats. Al Vazquez KayakGuide.com - Places to Paddle - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Emile Zen" <emilezen_at_yahoo.com> > Dave Gorjup <dgorjup_at_cox.net> wrote: > the roof rack alone, on my Olds mini-van, is not adequate for holding a > kayak by itself. They can rip right off the roof. > > Thanks for the warning. So what happens if your car has those aerodynamic-looking bumpers, affixed to the body to appear contiguous, and there is nothing to tie down to? I think I missed one of the replies to this inquiry. Emile, In just about any car you can always find some place to hook a carabiner or have a captive strap in place. You need to probe underneath beyond the aero bumpers for some frame member. Cars like folding kayaks have skins and frames. In a folding kayak you have frame places to tie things to inside the boat; in cars you have frame places for attaching the "bumper" tiedowns for kayak carrying. It may help if you can see the car up on a hoist and find those holes in the frame or intersections of frame parts that can have a cord tied through or around. Otherwise crawl under and look around. Once you find those places, you need to determine if they are easily accessible for the everyday process of tie downs or if you need to leave something captive like a cord or a bolt. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 1:39 PM -0400 5/23/03, ralph diaz wrote: >In just about any car you can always find some place to hook a carabiner or >have a captive strap in place. You need to probe underneath beyond the aero >bumpers for some frame member. Cars like folding kayaks have skins and >frames. In a folding kayak you have frame places to tie things to inside >the boat; in cars you have frame places for attaching the "bumper" tiedowns >for kayak carrying. I find that a single tie down on one end and two on the other is all that is required to firmly attach the kayak to to rack / car. Like Ralph said, I was able to locate a vertical frame member behind some plastic trim. In the front, I clip the tie-down onto a permanently installed a tubular webbing loop installed around this frame member. In the rear, I've bolted two pieces of strap steel (with holes to accept the tie-down hooks) to a frame member running behind the bumper --- there is only a single built-in attachment point and it positioned very close to the muffler. Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:50 AM 5/23/2003 -0700, Emile Zen wrote: >Dave Gorjup <dgorjup_at_cox.net> wrote: >the roof rack alone, on my Olds mini-van, is not adequate for holding a >kayak by itself. They can rip right off the roof. > >Thanks for the warning. So what happens if your car has those >aerodynamic-looking bumpers, affixed to the body to appear contiguous, and >there is nothing to tie down to? I think I missed one of the replies to >this inquiry. > >Emile In my case there are adequate holes front and back under the bumpers that I can use to loop NRS straps with the friction locks. I also use the NRS loop style straps to secure the kayak to the rails. Dave G. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:50 AM 5/23/2003 -0700, Emile Zen wrote: >Dave Gorjup <dgorjup_at_cox.net> wrote: >the roof rack alone, on my Olds mini-van, is not adequate for holding a >kayak by itself. They can rip right off the roof. > >Thanks for the warning. So what happens if your car has those >aerodynamic-looking bumpers, affixed to the body to appear contiguous, and >there is nothing to tie down to? I think I missed one of the replies to >this inquiry. > >Emile > Just a couple of further remarks on tie-downs. I mentioned earlier that I installed front and rear tie-downs for my '97 Dodge Caravan. I want to mention that I also have a factory rack to which I have fastened a Yakima rack with saddles forward and rollers aft. The roof rack is my primary tie-down point and my bow and stern lines are secondary tie-downs. When securing the boats, I snug down the roof tie-downs relatively tightly. The bow and stern lines have just the tinest bit of slack. Before I had my '97 Caravan, I had a'88 Caravan. During its life, it developed a leak in the roof (turned out to be a spot of missing caulk in the rain gutter). While chasing this leak, I had occasion to remove the roof liner and I was shocked to see how the roof rack was attached to the vehicle. There were press-thru nuts on the inside that didn't even have the bearing area of hex nuts. Forget washers. It didn't bother me too much then because the rack I used for that car used the rain gutters (remember them :-) ?). When I purchased the '97, I had a long telephone chat with an engineer in Detroit. The '97 attach method had improved over the '88 enough so that I was willing to use the factory rack to attach the boats. I use the Yakima rack with the factory rack more because it provides a better way to HOLD the boats themselves. Maybe this is all more than you wanted to know. At any rate there were a lot of discussions here on Paddlewise on tying boats to racks that should be in the archives. Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 02:44 PM, Leonhardt, William J wrote: > I was shocked to see how the roof rack was attached to the vehicle. > There were press-thru nuts on the inside that didn't even have the > bearing area of hex nuts. Forget washers. Unfortunately, such fasteners for factory roof racks are common. My Kia Sedona's rack is attached with nothing more than threaded rivets into the roof sheet metal and not into the roof frame. And that's why tie-downs front and rear are a great idea. Al Vazquez KayakGuide.com - Places to Paddle - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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