I am looking at used boat (poly) at a good price, but to fit my long legs I would have to move the seat back an inch or two. Would that upset its balance and handling? The physical set-up of the seat looks like this is possible: the seat has two bolts to attach it to a bracket, which is bolted through the hull. If I move the seat back and attach it to the bracket by one bolt each side, it would be about the right place. (Not necessarily easy to reaach inside, but it could probably be done.) Is this an acceptable thing to do to this boat? I am not (yet) a seakayaker, so have little experience to base a decision upon. GaryJ -- Director, Family Canoeing Centre Recreational canoeing courses for the whole family. +--------------------------------+ | /"\ | | \ / | | X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | | / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS | +--------------------------------+ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gary, Can't speak to that specific boat and I'm not yet a seasoned paddler but...I moved the seat back in my CD Storm - about 1.5" - and added a notch to my footpeg tracks (also had to add a small amount to the rudder cables which I did at the connection point to the rudder). Hasn't seemed to upset the balance of things a great deal. Probably also depends on what you pack for other gear - and where you put it. FWIW, K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gary J. MacDonald wrote: > The physical set-up of the seat looks like this is possible: the seat > has two bolts to attach it to a bracket, which is bolted through the > hull. If I move the seat back and attach it to the bracket by one > bolt each side, it would be about the right place. (Not necessarily > easy to reaach inside, but it could probably be done.) > > GaryJ I own a Cortez, and before that a Dagger Callisto. The Callisto was way too small. I had to lengthen the the rudder/foot peddals. West Marine has Stainless Steel Marine cable and fasteners. I was able to get a good four more inches out of the food peg setup. Worked beautiful. But the boat was still to small. Cramped my feet bad. I am 6 ft, 30 inch inseam and size 10 wide feet, Local dealer (Southwest Paddlesports) traded in the Callisto for a new Cortez. Boat fits nice. Does not want to track straight (use the rudder) and primary stability is poor, while secondary stability in great. You will enjoy the boat and grow into it. Safe Paddling -- Pete Cragg Scoutmaster Troop 889 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Cragg wrote: > I am > 6 ft, 30 inch inseam and size 10 wide feet, 6'2" but 35.5 inseam. My sz 9.5 feet aren't too bad, but that inseam is tough for fitting into a kayak. > Local dealer (Southwest Paddlesports) traded in the Callisto for a new > Cortez. Boat fits nice. Does not want to track straight (use the > rudder) and primary stability is poor, while secondary stability in > great. You will enjoy the boat and grow into it. I brailed the hull, and it your description fits my expectation w.r.t. stability. I think I'll get the boat, but I am more than a bit worried about the balance effect of moving the seat back. Further opinions on moving the seat?? Please?? GaryJ -- Director, Family Canoeing Centre Recreational canoeing courses for the whole family. +--------------------------------+ | /"\ | | \ / | | X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | | / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS | +--------------------------------+ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gary, Realizing this doesn't address the stability of moving the seat but....from my experience (that some PWers know about) moving the seat back was only a single piece of the fit. For me and my long legs, the limited deck height is the issue - not from toe room (although that is tight) but from the limited range of motion for my legs in terms of vertical positioning in the knee/thigh area. I've tried many remedies for my legs going numb but so far, none have worked. The 'magic' cure mentioned by many (padding under the thighs or knees) isn't much of an option since it simply pins my knees into a single position...locked under the deck with no movement. As much as I've heard people talk about the awesome paddling experience in a boat that fits perfectly (or close to it) I'd make sure that the boat you get really does fit - that you aren't trying to make something work - for the good deal or whatever. I'd wait, try lots of boats and find the 'perfect' match. I hear people say that when they slid into their 'perfect' boat it was an instant "oh yeah!!" For me, it is always an instant "oh yeah...if I move the seat, extend the footpegs....." Not the same. I think if you force a fit, you'll be back boat shopping very soon (of course, boat shopping IS fun...). Trying lots of boats is fairly tough in landlocked southern Wisconsin!! I've concluded that a custom stitch-n-glue boat is probably my next addition to the fleet. Just my two cents as an ill-fitted paddler, Keith PS: It still pricks my hackles a bit when I see someone pull their legs out of the cockpit and drape them on their front deck while on the water....just to relax and stretch a bit....while I'm looking for a beach to do the same...dang show-offs! :o) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gary J. MacDonald wrote: > 6'2" but 35.5 inseam. My sz 9.5 feet aren't too bad, but that inseam > is tough for fitting into a kayak. > > I brailed the hull, and it your description fits my expectation w.r.t. > stability. I think I'll get the boat, but I am more than a bit > worried about the balance effect of moving the seat back. > > Further opinions on moving the seat?? Please?? > > GaryJ Moving the seat is not too bad on a 16.5 ft kayak, It is critical in a white water boat - may help or screw up balance. I can produce the same effect by loading stuff in the fron or in the rear - as far as balance. It may effect the paddling though. Think of the boat as having front wheel drive. If you slouch or lean back it is rear wheel drive, and hard to control. Moving the seat back could have the same effect. Safe Paddling -- Pete Cragg Scoutmaster Troop 889 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 5 Jun 2003 at 11:59, Gary J. MacDonald wrote: > 6'2" but 35.5 inseam. My sz 9.5 feet aren't too bad, but that inseam > is tough for fitting into a kayak. Is your problem the forward bulkhead or the foot pedals? If it's the bulkhead move that. Plastic kayaks have glued-in bulkheads and the are relatively straighforward to remove, reshape and reinstall. If it's foam and you destroy it, it can be easily replaced. If the problem is with the footpegs, move them. You'll have to drill new mounting holes and fill the old holes, but you won't have to consider the effects of moving the seat. > I think I'll get the boat, but I am more than a bit > worried about the balance effect of moving the seat back. You mentioned in another post that moving the seat one hole position will do it. I doubt that this will effect the balance significantly and even if it does, you'll be able to trim it by putting some weight in the forward compartment. The seat movement times your weight is balanced by X inches to the forward compartment times ballast weight. Seat Movement x Paddler Weight = X x ballast weight Ballast weight = SMxPW/X Example : Measure the X (say 40 inches) and assume that the seat is moved two inches. That means BW = 2xPW/40 = PW/20 you need one twentieth your weight forward.(12 lb if you weight 240). Not so hard to do. The trick is figuring out where the X is measured from. It should be _your_ seated centre of gravity (not the kayak or you and the kayak). That'll be roughly the front of the seat (in its _original_ position) give or take a couple of inches. You can try this if the person selling it will let you unbolt the seat and let it rest on the bottom of the kayak for a test paddle. Slide it around till comfortable and see how it handles. Bring some weight to try balancing it. If you do get it, don't hang the seat on one bolt. Redrill and add the second in the right spot. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: Some interesting and helpful ideas. > Is your problem the forward bulkhead or the foot pedals? Pedals. Bulkhead is fine. > If the problem is with the footpegs, move them. You'll have to drill > new mounting holes and fill the old holes, but you won't have to > consider the effects of moving the seat. I hadn't thought of doing this. (It would also preserve access to storage space behind the seat, if that matters.) I am reluctant to drill the sides of the hull (psycho-somatic illness!) but I presume the easy way to fill the holes then is with short bolts and rubber washers, maybe through caulking for extra security. Certainly this would be one easy way to go as far as trim of the boat for other users. The only downside vs. moving the seat is that the seat movement gives me a bit of room to get my knees in and out easier. > You mentioned in another post that moving the seat one hole position > will do it. I doubt that this will effect the balance significantly > and even if it does, you'll be able to trim it by putting some weight > in the forward compartment. The seat movement times your weight is > balanced by X inches to the forward compartment times ballast weight. Yup. Easy enough to do with ballast. > If you do get it, don't hang the seat on one bolt. Redrill and add > the second in the right spot. I was only a little concerned about this, although the seat does then sit on the bottom of the boat. In fact I might have room to drill two new holes only one inch back, and mount there. If I move it back to the rear of its two holes, there might not be room for the second to go in. Thanks for some new thoughts. GaryJ -- Director, Family Canoeing Centre Recreational canoeing courses for the whole family. +--------------------------------+ | /"\ | | \ / | | X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | | / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS | +--------------------------------+ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:08 PM 6/5/2003 -0400, Gary J. MacDonald wrote: >Michael Daly wrote: > >Some interesting and helpful ideas. > >>Is your problem the forward bulkhead or the foot pedals? > >Pedals. Bulkhead is fine. > >>If the problem is with the footpegs, move them. You'll have to drill new >>mounting holes and fill the old holes, but you won't have to consider the >>effects of moving the seat. > >I hadn't thought of doing this. (It would also preserve access to storage >space behind the seat, if that matters.) > >I am reluctant to drill the sides of the hull (psycho-somatic illness!) >but I presume the easy way to fill the holes then is with short bolts and >rubber washers, maybe through caulking for extra security. I confess that I haven't followed this whole thread (could become a hole thread) but here is an additional thought. If you want to move your footpegs and NOT drill additional holes, you could do it with a spacer plate. You would unscrew the screws that currently hold your footpegs and install a long, thin plate with the same screws and hole pattern where your footpegs are now. This spacer plate would also have a tapped hole pattern to remount your footpegs in a new, more-suited-to-you location. New screw lengths would have to be chosen carefully, but, in the end, you would get the footpegs in a new location without additional hull holes. AND, you could put the boat back to the way it was for resale. Good luck, Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If the bulkhead is in a good place, just remove or ignore the footpegs and put your feet on the bulkhead. Or pad it with a sloping piece of closed-cell foam for better fit. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Cragg wrote: > Moving the seat is not too bad on a 16.5 ft kayak, It is critical in a > white water boat - may help or screw up balance. > > I can produce the same effect by loading stuff in the fron or in the > rear - as far as balance. Right. (Expected use is day paddling, so a small pack can be dropped in the front. It will also be used by shorter-legged family members.) > It may effect the paddling though. Think of the boat as having front > wheel drive. If you slouch or lean back it is rear wheel drive, and > hard to control. Moving the seat back could have the same effect. Hmmmm. Shouldn't it track easier, if paddling a bit less efficiently, except for the potential for the bow to catch more wind and get blown off course? (Is that lee-cocking?) GaryJ -- Director, Family Canoeing Centre Recreational canoeing courses for the whole family. +--------------------------------+ | /"\ | | \ / | | X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | | / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS | +--------------------------------+ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Leonhardt, William J wrote: > I confess that I haven't followed this whole thread (could become a hole > thread) but here is an additional thought. If you want to move your > footpegs and NOT drill additional holes, you could do it with a spacer > plate. You would unscrew the screws that currently hold your footpegs > and install a long, thin plate with the same screws and hole pattern > where your footpegs are now. This spacer plate would also have a tapped > hole pattern to remount your footpegs in a new, more-suited-to-you > location. New screw lengths would have to be chosen carefully, but, in > the end, you would get the footpegs in a new location without additional > hull holes. AND, you could put the boat back to the way it was for resale. Ooooh! This guy is good! I like this idea. At least it gets my mind working in more dreative directions than it was before. GryJ -- Director, Family Canoeing Centre Recreational canoeing courses for the whole family. +--------------------------------+ | /"\ | | \ / | | X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | | / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS | +--------------------------------+ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jon Pumplin wrote: > If the bulkhead is in a good place, just remove or ignore > the footpegs and put your feet on the bulkhead. Or pad it > with a sloping piece of closed-cell foam for better fit. The pegs are for the rudder. And I do want to have it available. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > Moving the seat is not too bad on a 16.5 ft kayak, It is critical in > a white water boat - may help or screw up balance. > > I can produce the same effect by loading stuff in the fron or in the > rear - as far as balance. > > It may effect the paddling though. Think of the boat as having front > wheel drive. If you slouch or lean back it is rear wheel drive, and > hard to control. Moving the seat back could have the same effect. Naw, the critical issue is just getting the balance right. If you get the balance right, the directional stability will be fine. I don't think cars are a good analogy, because there you're dealing with rolling resistance, etc from wheels and that doesn't apply. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Reading the "Where should the sliding seat be?" section of the "Owners" manual in the "manuals" pick-box of our website should help you understand what pros and cons there might be to moving your seat further back. While you may loose a little in top speed I think that most kayak's handling would be helped more than hindered by putting the seat a few inches further back. I think at least one company purposefully designs their kayaks out of trim to the stern because of the improved tracking and less weatherhelm (without much effect on maneuverability and only a small drag penalty at lower speeds--that won't even be accounted for in Sea Kayaker's drag calculations at any speed) this position allows. It is also likely going to be a lot easier to test this and make this change rather than trying to remount the foot pedals and deal with the old holes left over. the cockpit will get easier to get in an out of for a long legged paddler as well. With most kayaks the easiest way to know if it is "in trim" is to use a level just in front of the seat. The center of gravity of a kayak paddlers body is at about his belly button (unless it protrudes forward more than most--then try the groin and move up about 10 inches from the bottom of the seat). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > Reading the "Where should the sliding seat be?" section of the "Owners" > manual in the "manuals" pick-box of our website should help you understand > what pros and cons there might be to moving your seat further back. While > you may loose a little in top speed I think that most kayak's handling would > be helped more than hindered by putting the seat a few inches further back. > I think at least one company purposefully designs their kayaks out of trim > to the stern because of the improved tracking and less weatherhelm (without > much effect on maneuverability and only a small drag penalty at lower > speeds--that won't even be accounted for in Sea Kayaker's drag calculations > at any speed) this position allows. It is also likely going to be a lot > easier to test this and make this change rather than trying to remount the > foot pedals and deal with the old holes left over. the cockpit will get > easier to get in an out of for a long legged paddler as well. With most > kayaks the easiest way to know if it is "in trim" is to use a level just in > front of the seat. The center of gravity of a kayak paddlers body is at > about his belly button (unless it protrudes forward more than most--then try > the groin and move up about 10 inches from the bottom of the seat). Thanks. I will check your web site. From this final comment, and everyone else's input, I will call the seller in the morning and make arrangements to pick up the boat. (I will discuss it with "she who must be obeyed" first, just to avoid complications.) As for my own centre of gravity, I have been over-building my Guinness Medialis lately, but not enough to affect the balance. GaryJ -- Director, Family Canoeing Centre Recreational canoeing courses for the whole family. +--------------------------------+ | /"\ | | \ / | | X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | | / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS | +--------------------------------+ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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