Has anyone seen the Rolling Instructional video called "Grace Under Pressure", and would care to comment on it's quality? http://www.paddlefilms.com/gup.htm Thanks, Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A friend and I watched it together. She watched it repeatedly and said it really helped. I liked it but it is geared only towards WW. Jim et al ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> > Has anyone seen the Rolling Instructional video called "Grace Under > Pressure", and would care to comment on it's quality? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote: > Has anyone seen the Rolling Instructional video called "Grace Under > Pressure", and would care to comment on it's quality? It was state of the art when it was made, but Kent Ford has a new video out that's much better, The Kayak Roll (http://www.performancevideo.com/kayakroll.htm). GUP shows only C-to-C, TKR teaches a modified sweep roll that's really effortless, and features people in all kinds of boats doing it, not just WW boats. Touring boats out in the surf, even. Also, TKR has a big section on how to teach rolling and the various pitfalls that learners may fall into. I really like it. I saw it running on the TV and the Nantahala Outdoor Center and bought it on the spot. For those who have screened both, I would be interested in opinions on the relative cinematic skills of Kathy Bolyn (GUP) vs Mary DeReimer (TKR) and Tommy deCuir vs Kent Ford. Oh, but I have to say that TKR lacks anything equivalent to that inspired performance by the dude with the ACE helmet, Viking paddle, and old fiberglass slalom kayak. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Rick, Grace Under Pressure is one of the most entertaining videos I have seen so far. It's basically 3 folks with awesome rolling skills showing various rolls in whitewater boats. They show an underwater pool view of several different rolls, mostly C to C type. It's really quite funny and imformative. The bottom line is it's worth watching and worth the cash. If your a whitewater kayaker it should be essential viewing. From a sea kayaker's perspective, it's a great tape for developing your rolling skills, but not for the paddler trying to learn their first roll. Don -----Original Message----- From: Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com Subject: [Paddlewise] Grace Under Pressure Has anyone seen the Rolling Instructional video called "Grace Under Pressure", and would care to comment on it's quality? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sea Kayakers, Whatever rolling video you get, if you are a sea kayaker and are learning to roll, I'd recommend learning the sweep roll rather than the C to C. I do both rolls on both sides (don't have an off side), and in a sea kayak, I much prefer the sweep roll. It just seems more powerful and easier to do in sea kayak, especially in a loaded one. The C to C may be great in the world of white water, but in a big sea kayak, the sweep is best. I know that a bunch of people will respond saying that they love the C to C in a sea kayak, but they usually have a white water background. By the way, I've have more than a few friends who started surfing in white water kayaks and lost their sea kayak roll because the little white water boats allowed them to become sloppy. Duane Strosaker www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] For the sweep roll you might try "The Kayak Roll" by Kent Ford and Performance Video. Does a good job breaking down the sweep roll and for you instructors also has a section on teaching the sweep roll. http://performancevideo.com/kayakroll.htm - Mark no affiliation - yadda yadda yadda Strosaker wrote: > Whatever rolling video you get, if you are a sea kayaker and are learning to > roll, I'd recommend learning the sweep roll rather than the C to C. I do > both rolls on both sides (don't have an off side), and in a sea kayak, I > much prefer the sweep roll. It just seems more powerful and easier to do in > sea kayak, especially in a loaded one. The C to C may be great in the world > of white water, but in a big sea kayak, the sweep is best. I know that a > bunch of people will respond saying that they love the C to C in a sea > kayak, but they usually have a white water background. > > By the way, I've have more than a few friends who started surfing in white > water kayaks and lost their sea kayak roll because the little white water > boats allowed them to become sloppy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane Strosaker wrote: Whatever rolling video you get, if you are a sea kayaker and are learning to roll, I'd recommend learning the sweep roll rather than the C to C. I do both rolls on both sides (don't have an off side), and in a sea kayak, I much prefer the sweep roll. It just seems more powerful and easier to do in sea kayak, especially in a loaded one. Duane, I have to agree strongly with you. Sweep roll is much easier than C to C roll, based on energy spent to do one or the other and other considerations that I would like to elaborate in here. I´d like to take in consideration several arguments. 1.- One particular student. 2.- My own experience. 3.- Physics principles. 4.- Watching roll champions. 1.- One particular student. Teaching rolling in my shortened kayak in my small swimming pool, I saw a girl and her father learning to roll with a paddle float. The girl would start sweeping the paddle and then would lean her body totally and completely over the back deck. The effect was like magic. The kayak came back up almost by itself with no force on the paddle. No intentional hip flick, no push down on the paddle. She did it several times. 2.- I went back in the kayak and exaggerated my leaning to the back as I was sweeping my paddle. Same thing happened. I was up. I did several C to C rolls and noticed that I needed more force to get a finished roll and my paddle did sink about one foot. Then on sweep rolls, resting my back on the deck I could finish my roll with out any force and with the paddle at the same height as it was when I was sweeping. 3.- Physical principle. It turns out to be very simple. If I roll a cylinder it will rotate very easily. --------------------------- .--.--.-! If I rotate a cylinder with a protrusion like a T shape, --------------------------- ! ! ! it will be harder to turn because there is weight outside of the rotating axis and it takes more torque to get it to turn. When a kayaker aligns his upper body with the kayak, all the mass is within the kayak, and just a small flotation on one side will push the kayak upwards. All he has to do is give some rotation with a little hip motion or a little push on the horizontal paddle, to place the center of mass inside the kayak body and therefore, have the side flotation lift the hull to reach equilibrium. When a kayaker is in the C position ready to roll, then he must exert more force to right himself up, since he is turning the boat keeping part of his/her body towards one side. He does it by doing a strong hip flick and sinking the head, trying to compress himself as much as possible. No matter how well he does it, it will take more effort than when the body mass is already on the kayak, therefore there is some more force applied on the paddle and you can see that it sinks during the hip flick. In my case, I can feel more effort in C to C than in sweep roll, when I do both on the same day, one after the other. This is only true if the body goes all the way to the back while doing the sweep roll. To prove my point I have rolled alone the double kayak Tabasco, with it´s 29 inches width and 19 feet long, using extended paddle and sweep roll leaning all the way to the back deck. You can see that at http://community.webshots.com/user/cayucochief in the album rolls. I can not roll this kayak with C to C roll. 4.- Experienced kayakers.- If you see famous kayakers rolling without paddle, for example the winners at the last Surf Fest in Corpus Christy Mark White, Steve Walls, Chris Kuhlman, Juan Luis del Valle, using just the hand or a float, or worse with a brick in his hand like Maliquiaq Padilla, you´ll see that the less leverage they have (no paddle, float, etc), the more they roll resting completely on the back deck of their kayaks and completing the roll pushing on the water with the hand or brick or whatever they are holding. For that reason, I agree with you that learning rolls is easier with a sweep roll. If a kayaker learns to roll sweeping, and resting all the way back, with an extended paddle, his/her chances of missing a roll are very small. Once they can roll 100% of the time, then they can shorten the paddle to normal paddling position and try C to C rolls both with extended paddle and normal paddle and other rolls, with the confidence that if they miss, they can use their extended-paddle-sweep-roll to come back up and breathe. With that confidence they can try surfing, bracing, sculling, etc. because they know they`ll be OK in case of capsize. Best Regards, Rafael. el cayuco chief. www.mayanseas.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11 Sep 2003 at 17:16, Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote: > Pardon my ignorance... is there a difference between a WW roll and a > Sea Kayak roll? I just figured that each type of roll was the same > regardless of which type of boat you were in. That is, the "XYZ" roll > is done identically, regardless of being in a WW boat or a Sea Kayak. > Is that not the case? I'd say that's pretty much true. I almost agree with Duane, in that some rolls are "better" in sea kayaks and others in WW. My only comment would be that it is partly due to the paddler. IOW, some people, regardless of background, have an affinity for one type of roll just, well, because. Perhaps it's the first they learned, perhaps the one they feel stronger with, perhaps the one that's smoother etc. I wouldn't recommend that a sea kayaker learn a rodeo roll as a first. However, if you're serious about heavy duty WW (or surf/rock garden sea kayaking a la Tsunami Rangers) then it's one you should probably know. Then again, I wouldn't emphasize layback rolls for serious WW paddlers - they need to return to the combat position fast and should use modified sweep rolls that finish sitting up rather than laying back. The standard sweep roll is the most basic and one of the easiest to learn. You can start with an extended paddle and progress to the screw roll as your technique improves. There are some good video clips on the Qajaq USA web site: http://www.qajaqusa.org/Movies/movies.html Check out the standard roll video. Note the hand positions he uses - in particular how his inboard hand stays on his chest near the shoulder at the end of the layback. This forces you to keep a paddle that is flat to the water - some beginners tend to lift the inboard handle high and that can force the paddle deep. Note also that he switches to a low brace reverse sweep as he sits up. This makes for a solid, reliable layback roll with a stable recovery. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11 Sep 2003 at 20:01, Michael Daly wrote: > that is flat to the water - some beginners tend to lift the inboard > handle high and that can force the paddle deep. Make that "lift the inboard _hand_ high..." Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11 Sep 2003 at 17:04, Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote: > still struggle. Part of my problem is that I'm trying to roll an > uncooperative boat - Perceptions Carolina, 14-1/2 ft long, 25" wide, a > flat bottom, and not outfitted properly for me (I slide around the > cockpit when trying to roll). I'd recommend not trying to learn in a poor fitting boat. It might teach you to do things you shouldn't and those, being learned first, will be "burned-in". Better to borrow a good kayak until your new kayak is ready. Once you are proficient at rolling, then experiment with rolling problem kayaks. By then you'll have developed good technique and can apply it to compensate for the difficulties in odd kayaks. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Rick, It's funny that you are building an Outer Island. Great boat!! I plan to build one myself someday maybe. :> Jay's tape "First Roll" is what taught me my first roll. A friend and awesome paddler had spent a few sessions with me teaching me the basics but it was only when I watched Jay's tape that I was able to put it all together and succeed at my first roll. He teaches it backwards and really makes a lot of sense. His technique also helps develop an awesome skull. As for your Carolina, it may not be the easiest rolling boat but my Perception Eclipse rolled well and is what I learned to roll in. You'll get it. Where are you paddling and are you paddling with other rollers? Don *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The most basic and, in my opinion, the easiest roll is the extended paddle leaning back roll. A CtoC roll is much more difficult to perform in a sea kayak than a leaning back (or forwards) roll. A WW boat is easier to roll than a seayak. Don *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11 Sep 2003 at 20:31, Don Margiano wrote: > A WW boat is easier to roll than a seayak. I don't think this is always true, but it tends to psyche people out when they try to learn in a sea kayak. I've found, as one example, that my Boreal Designs Ellesmere SK is about as easy to roll as my Perception Pirouette WW. The lower volume (and some not so low volume) sea kayaks, especially the Greenland style, are particularly easy to roll. Some of the boxy WW kayaks and high volume creek boats can be trickier. Many WW boats are kinda beamy and the boxy ones have multiple points where they are stable. The latter results in a kayak that rolls like a square wheel. The sea kayaks that are hard to roll are the ones with lots of volume and especially those with high seats and rear decks. The latter prevents or restricts a proper layback. I remember trying to roll an old design Gulfstream and feeling I was about to break my spine. The 2000 and newer versions, OTOH, roll like a log. I can't imagine rolling some of the Seaward touring kayaks with their high, wrap- around plastic seats - I'd rip that out and replace it with a backband or foam block quickly. In all, outfitting and fit are probably more important than type of kayak when it comes to rolling. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:08 AM 9/12/2003 -0400, Michael Daly wrote: >On 11 Sep 2003 at 20:31, Don Margiano wrote: > > > A WW boat is easier to roll than a seayak. > >I don't think this is always true, but it tends to psyche people out >when they try to learn in a sea kayak. > >I've found, as one example, that my Boreal Designs Ellesmere SK is >about as easy to roll as my Perception Pirouette WW. The lower >volume (and some not so low volume) sea kayaks, especially the >Greenland style, are particularly easy to roll. Some of the boxy WW >kayaks and high volume creek boats can be trickier. Many WW boats >are kinda beamy and the boxy ones have multiple points where they are >stable. The latter results in a kayak that rolls like a square >wheel. I was going to write exactly the same thing. Most of the early displacement hull ww kayaks like the Pirouette are very easy. >The sea kayaks that are hard to roll are the ones with lots of volume >and especially those with high seats and rear decks. The latter >prevents or restricts a proper layback. I remember trying to roll an >old design Gulfstream and feeling I was about to break my spine. The >2000 and newer versions, OTOH, roll like a log. I can't imagine >rolling some of the Seaward touring kayaks with their high, wrap- >around plastic seats - I'd rip that out and replace it with a >backband or foam block quickly. I've paddled and rolled all of the Seaward kayaks except the very newest models. None of them had a plastic seat. They all have a foam seat that fits into a nylon covering that also serves as a backup paddlefloat. The backband *is* a hard plastic piece wrapped with a padded nylon sleeve. I agree that they make the backband too high but it's easy to trim off and inch or so from the top. I didn't find any of the Seaward kayaks particularly difficult to roll, even the higher volume Navigator and Vision (they're much too big for me). However, I usually do more of a sweep to C roll and only really do layback rolls when I'm using a Greenland stick. I have, however, done a butterfy roll with a Greenland stick in the Endeavor and Luna. >In all, outfitting and fit are probably more important than type of >kayak when it comes to rolling. One of the reasons why I found the Seaward boats relatively easy was the knee "hooks" built into the cockpit combing. Even if there was lots of room between my hips and the sides of the boats the knee hooks gave me something to grab onto. John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu Ithaca, NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I said "A WW boat is easier to roll than a seayak." Mike said "I don't think this is always true, but it tends to psyche people out when they try to learn in a sea kayak." I don't think it's always true either. It was just a generalization. Yes it really does psyche people out, especially when they see people hand rolling them. "I've found, as one example, that my Boreal Designs Ellesmere SK is about as easy to roll as my Perception Pirouette WW. The lower volume (and some not so low volume) sea kayaks, especially the Greenland style, are particularly easy to roll. Some of the boxy WW kayaks and high volume creek boats can be trickier. Many WW boats are kinda beamy and the boxy ones have multiple points where they are stable. The latter results in a kayak that rolls like a square wheel. Those creek boats are scary. My 21" 18' sea kayak with a rounded hull almost rolls itself and I've paddled a few that roll much better. I must admit I have never rolled a WW yak, just a dozen seayaks and one time in a canoe, unsuccessfully. "In all, outfitting and fit are probably more important than type of kayak when it comes to rolling." A skirt really helps. :> Don *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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