Peter said (snip): >>>Got caught in a thunderstorm today...Here's the dilemma - normally I would have also used a space blanket but wasn't game in the storm because of its metallic nature.<<< Sounded a bit scary out there. There were some good special effects in storm part of the movie that I mentioned the other day about a missionary in Tonga. The lightning was charging through the faces of the steep ocean rollers. Nature can be so awe inspiring. Anyway, I use the ground cloth that came with my tent as a fast shelter while waiting out bad conditions temporarily, or eating lunch in heavy rain/wind. It's the ground cloth that came with my North Face tent (separate purchase). It is very flexible and compacts down nicely. As it drapes so well, yet is waterproof and durable, it works better than a space blanket, but of course doesn't radiate back heat. However, its non-metallic obviously, so better in lightning I suppose when God is using his bug-zapper on us humans. :-) Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net> wrote: >> Keep in mind lightning is attracted to pointy objects because the charge is more concentrated at the tip which attracts the lightning. I would worry more about my shape than what I am covered in. >> Jim hit the nail on the head ... speaking of which, I better find a nogginfile so I can take off the sharpness at the top ... or assume a head-down position when lightning is around. Nick's Faraday cage comments suggest another mechanism: coat your entire boat with sputtered-on aluminum and hide in it. [grins] -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Nick's Faraday cage comments suggest another mechanism: coat your entire > boat with sputtered-on aluminum and hide in it. While lightning wear a knight armour, made of steel. If possible in a dry suit version. With a knight armour, your able to walk on the seas ground, too. ;-))) > [grins] Yipp! :-))))))))))))))) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug' wrote, >The lightning was charging through the faces of the >steep ocean rollers. Nature can be so awe inspiring. G'day Doug and all, Its funny the things that scare. I'm worried by excessive cold or wind, Jumbo jets and big surf dumping on the shore, but not lightning. Theres something majestic and fatalistic about a storm. For decades I worked with very high voltages, ionising fields, faraday screens and nanofilms. The more I study the less I know. So with lightning I follow the conventional wisdom, get off the water if possible, curl up under a stable bank away from isolated trees, wrap up warm, eat lots and if its going to strike so be it - enjoy the beauty of the storm. Doug' your suggestion to use a ground sheet sounded eminently sensible. Another good back channel idea was to use a dustbin bag. I'll just be careful not to fall asleep in the bag and be carted away. Thanks everyone for all the posts, they certainly made me think, All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter said( snip): >>>Its funny the things that scare. I'm worried by excessive cold or wind, Jumbo jets and big surf dumping on the shore, but not lightning. Theres something majestic and fatalistic about a storm.<<< I use a large "garden refuse" bag, orange in colour, as a back up emergency cover, but I doubt I'd ever really use one for the purpose you describe. If you are marathon-kayak training and every ounce counts, perhaps. 'I mostly carry it as a back up emergency attention getter, after seeing one so well drawn by Derek 's in one of his sea kayaking manuals. I've never actually tried this in a real bad blow beside my kayak in the water, but it does make a nice illustration. Nevertheless, I've carried one since 1983ish (not the same one :-) ). I carry one garden-variety (excuse the pun) as a spare, and a larger one (and heavier-duty) that is sold by outfitters. Heck, it would make a great body bag for me... Weird humour mode: "Hey Captain, there, off the port bow at eleven o'clock, I bet it's that PIW we were looking for last month, you know, the one off Brooks where we found that skinny kayak adrift." "Okay, seaman, haul'm aboard, use the gaff, then search the remains." "Sir, would you look at this, he's got his own body bag in his PFD pocket, guess we can use it; anyone got a twist tie?." As far as being on the water during a lightning storm, we've been around the block with that one on PW before, with a fair bit of, um, static. I personally get a charge out of being alone at sea during an electrical storm, primarily because of the associated sea states that often accompany such occurrences and other phenomenon (the different aura, etc). We actually don't get that many good lightning shows around here specifically (Olympic Mtns and Coastal Range do). If we do get good lightning associated with cyclogenesis, well, I just want to be on the water if possible. The worst factor -- more than lightning, rogue waves, or drunken PWC operators -- has always been explosive and sudden, severe gusts, which when abrupt, can really wreak havoc. We had one this past January, a sudden 100 kilometre an hour gust that knocked over two tall massive coal-loading machines (hundreds of tons apiece) at Roberts Bank on the mainland (one fell onto a ship, the other was lifted off its tracks and thrown into the water). These gusts aren't always predictable, as those who live on the east coast know so well. I've had my share of harrowing experiences in such circumstances, but sitting here with my stitches just out today, with another "up to 8 months of possible swelling Doug," I miss being out there. BTW, (unrelated topic) in case anyone was following that story this summer about a man swimming around Vancouver Island, he almost made it but, dislocated his shoulder in a big boomer off Brooks Peninsula. He lives near me out here in Langford, a suburb of Victoria, or as we like to pride ourselves, "Westshore." Doug Lloyd (who really does try not to ignore the taxpayers of Canada, you know) Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote >I doubt I'd ever really use one for the purpose >you describe. If you are marathon-kayak training >and every ounce counts, perhaps. G'Day Doug' It wasn't the reason for considering the bag but by coincidence it was marathon-kayak training. Its the Hawkesbury Classic (111km overnight). The race is in ten days time with two tides against us and one with us. I'll be lucky to finish. Teams get points for people who finish, so the more people in a team the better your score might be. The organisers also recommend a plastic dustbin bag. Exposure is an issue, some years they have to cancel the race halfway because of wind, rain and too many hypothermic paddlers. I don't need one while in the boat, but it can be pretty cold staying for any long time out of the boat. What to eat and drink seems to be the key issue after training - only managed to finish last year by eating caramels the last 10km - seriously! Not exactly a planned diet. This year expect to alternate a banana with a power bar every hour and continuous sips of water from a camel bag. A lot of people have told me continuous sips are better than drinking evry hour. Hope to finish the last 1km on Godiva chocolate when the caramels run out:~) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I remember your post and description last time. Please keep us up to date this next race. It is much appreciated by those of us too lazy to seek out these events. :-). Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> Subject: Marathon's was Lightning and Space Blanket > Doug wrote > >I doubt I'd ever really use one for the purpose > >you describe. If you are marathon-kayak training > >and every ounce counts, perhaps. > > G'Day Doug' > > It wasn't the reason for considering the bag but by coincidence it was > marathon-kayak training. Its the Hawkesbury Classic (111km overnight). The > race is in ten days time with two tides against us and one with us. I'll be > lucky to finish. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The organisers also recommend a plastic dustbin bag. Exposure is an issue, > some years they have to cancel the race halfway because of wind, rain and > too many hypothermic paddlers. I don't need one while in the boat, but it > can be pretty cold staying for any long time out of the boat. > Some of the orgs involved with wilderness rescue have been recommending something like this for hypothermia. --Specifically black trashbags. Problem with rescue blankets is that the patient has already lost a lot of body heat, so the reflectance will only minimize further loss. The trashbag is more of a black-body radiation absorber, so might return some heat to the victim... JMP *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe said: >>>Some of the orgs involved with wilderness rescue have been recommending something like this for hypothermia. --Specifically black trashbags. Problem with rescue blankets is that the patient has already lost a lot of body heat, so the reflectance will only minimize further loss. The trashbag is more of a black-body radiation absorber, so might return some heat to the victim...<<< Interesting recommendation. Makes sense I guess. If I was on my own, hypothermic-like, and my space blanket unable to reflect back non-existent body heat, well, then, I'd probably just jump back in the water and get it over with. Seriously though, I think the space blanket is usually sufficient. I carry a small, lightweight one in my rescue-access gear, plus the small trashbag, though in an orange colour as a back-up signal for help to get a would-be rescuers attention. I carry the heavier duty orange outdoor bag on the kayak deck in a net bag, along with a heavier version of a space blanket, which works well for loading the kayak on sandy beaches, etc, too. I do consider land-based and immersion hypothermia as my biggest enemies on this coast, here where I paddle anyway. If I were into tropical paddling, then it would be anti-bacterial fungicide and sunblock :-) I may come across as a bit crazy in my posts, but I take the risk of cold water very seriously, as do most of my friends that seek out rougher water. I assure you we would deny knowledge of any auditory or visual hallucinations egging us onward toward some siren-induced doom, nor would there be any suicidality or homicidality extant. No, just looking for life-defining moments and existential jubilation embracing tempestuous circumstances where skills and savvy play a major part in one's survival. However, cold conditions are nothing to be trifled with. Now, how did I get off on that tangent... Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 29 Oct 2003 at 19:41, PeterO wrote: As a former marathon cross-country skier, my $0.02 > What to eat and drink seems to be the key issue after training - only > managed to finish last year by eating caramels the last 10km - > seriously! Whatever works! I've found little candies are useful in long distance events - sucking on them produces a slow sugar trickle rather than a sudden hit. Hard sugar candies are good for this too. > This year expect to alternate a > banana with a power bar every hour Warning - bananas are laxatives as well! If you eat a lot of bananas on a regular basis, it might have less effect. Power bars (name brand or clones) are not really all that they're cracked up to be, based on tests of athletes. They are no more (or less) effective than other foods. They are convenient, however. I find the more cookie-like, the easier to eat and digest. My preferences used to be for things like oatmeal-raisin cookies (the chewy kind), chocolate covered raisins, dried fruit (papaya, pineapple...). Nibble stuff rather than meal stuff. I used to pace myself and set time limits for specific sections. If I was faster than my set pace, I'd rest and eat a more substantial "meal". I'd also schedule rests to recover a bit and catch up on food and water. It took discipline to stop and linger, but it payed off at the end - I was much stronger at the finish than in previous years where I didn't schedule stops or force a steady pace. > and continuous sips of water from a > camel bag. A lot of people have told me continuous sips are better > than drinking evry hour. Regular intake is better than periodic. Get a healthy intake _before_ you start (~20 min or so), too. However, I'd suggest two sources - alternate between water and an electrolyte type drink (Gatorade or clones). In fact, if cold is a potential problem, also carrying a thermos bottle with hot Gatorade can really give you a boost (emotional if not physical). That's what they serve at ski marathons. In the old days, honey-lemon tea (which actually doesn't contain tea) was the hot drink of choice and for the real Scandinavians, blueberry soup! Hot cassis is also great (non-alcoholic). > Hope to finish the last 1km on Godiva chocolate when the caramels run > out:~) I'd stick to caramels and use the Godiva chocolate as a finish line incentive. Drool all the way in... Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote, >I'd stick to caramels and use the Godiva chocolate >as a finish line incentive. Drool all the way in... G'Day Michael, Thats a lot of good experience. Much appreciated. Variety seems to be coming up as important so will add some small tubs of nutmeg flavoured rice pudding into the menu. I can see the paddle has potential to be a gourmet fest!. Thanks for the advice, All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: " No, just looking for life-defining moments and existential jubilation embracing tempestuous circumstances where skills and savvy play a major part in one's survival." Doug: You and Emily Dickinson are in agreement on this. "The Soul's distinct connection With immortality Is best disclosed by Danger Or quick Calamity- As Lightning on a Landscape Exhibits Sheets of Place- Not yet suspected-but for Flash- And Click-and Suddenness." TFJ ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I just about always carry an emergency blanket. From the discussion, I was thinking that y'all were headed towards wishing for a bag that was black on the outside and reflective on the inside. Over a decade ago, my brother spent a couple of weeks hiking in New Zealand. He came back with a piece of gear that impressed me. The authorities in Kiwiland deal with a very high concentration of hikers, and they were handing out free vapor-barrier survival bags. These were of thicker plastic than a garbage bag, international orange, about 4 feet square (i.e. big enough to climb into), and one whole side was printed with what amounted to an entire booklet on wilderness survival. It has always seemed to me that other park services, etc., would do well to emulate that idea. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Among many other things to do, PeterO wrote: "curl up under a stable bank". I don't think that is a good idea around lightning. It might make you more vulnerable to the ground currents radiating from a nearby lightning strike (especially if you become the shortest distance between the top of the bank and the ground your contacting below). Mountaineering texts I've seen suggest sitting up above ground preferably on top of your pack in such conditions and avoiding the usual shelters you might seek in rain like overhangs, shallow caves or any other places where the ground current might go through you (or where an exploding tree might kill you). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote >avoiding the usual shelters you might seek in rain like >overhangs, shallow caves or any other places where the >ground current might go through you G'day, Thanks for that Matt - I can see your point. Especially if one was lying against a wall under an overhang taking shelter from the rain. My phrase 'under a bank' is misleading - it was a nearly vertical bank, no overhang, no chance of shelter. It seems hard to have to choose between making oneself a discontinuity on a fairly flat surface or, as you point out, a possible short circuit for ground currents near a strike. Given the logic of what you are saying, is it a sensible compromise to crouch near but not against the bank? This is what I was doing though I wasn't thinking of avoiding ground currents at the time. Do the texts give much detail or case studies? I'll try to sketch a cross section of how I was located. I'm assuming ground currents don't arc back out of the ground - is that the case? ********** * * B PeterO * A seated * N #### * K #### * #### * *********************** River * grass & mud ************* All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO asked, on Paddlewise: >>Given the logic of what you are saying, is it a sensible compromise to crouch near but not against the bank? This is what I was doing though I wasn't thinking of avoiding ground currents at the time. Do the texts give much detail or case studies? I'll try to sketch a cross section of how I was located. I'm assuming ground currents don't arc back out of the ground - is that the case? ********** * * B PeterO * A seated * N #### * K #### * #### * *********************** River * grass & mud*****>> Peter, if I read your diagram correctly, this is about as good as you can do. Note Ralph Diaz posted info on a "zone of protection" near tall objects. If you are on something insulating and not touching the bank, I'd guess you are safer there than in the open. I can vouch for Ralph's zone, having been in the water when trees on the bank adjacent got nailed about 100 meters off. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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