Hi, I think it is time for one of you folks to talk directly to the guy who is proposing the race. Chuck Sutherland From: "Rev. Bob Carter" <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net> To: Subject: [Paddlewise] disaster in the making Date sent: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:01:39 -0900 Sorry to keep this going. I know some of you must be getting tired of it but the kayakathon organizer just updated his bio and it included the following statement..... "I have zero kayaking experience. " Give me a break Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree. While I think the whole thing sounds ill conceived, I also think that anyone who chooses to participate is free to make their own judgment. Instead of taking actions which are likely to get the operation shut down, maybe the critics should offer something constructive. On Jan 23, 2004, at 12:28 AM, skimmer_at_enter.net wrote: > Hi, > I think it is time for one of you folks to talk directly to the guy > who is proposing the race. > > Chuck Sutherland > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] The problem with the "free to participate" approach is that we tax payers get stuck with the rescue tab and even more important the rescuers put their lives on the line. I have no problem with people doing really risky and stupid things if they agree in advance that if they get into trouble, nobody will rescue them. However, it does not work that way. Also, if he does pull it off and there are some really photogenic rescues, will the people who did the rescuing get a cut of the profits? I doubt it. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Schade While I think the whole thing sounds ill conceived, I also think that anyone who chooses to participate is free to make their own judgment. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Have you sent your "Do not rescue" form in to the Coast Guard yet? Every time you go out you expose yourself to a real risk that may require your rescue. At what point does it become irresponsible? I'm sure there are many citizens who would argue you should not put the taxpayers money at risk at the level you do. I can not make a good argument to justify the level of risk I permit myself. I accept the risk because it is fun. I am not prepared to say the risk I choose is responsible and acceptable, but anything beyond that is not. Nick On Jan 23, 2004, at 12:02 PM, Donald Schoengold wrote: > The problem with the "free to participate" approach is that we tax > payers > get stuck with the rescue tab and even more important the rescuers put > their > lives on the line. > > I have no problem with people doing really risky and stupid things if > they > agree in advance that if they get into trouble, nobody will rescue > them. > However, it does not work that way. > > Also, if he does pull it off and there are some really photogenic > rescues, > will the people who did the rescuing get a cut of the profits? I > doubt it. > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There are a number of arguments to be made regarding ventures of the type advertised on this guy's site. The overlap between individual rights and collective/community accountability beg a rather wide and shifting grey stripe of demarcation. It is worth noting that this is a very specific, commercial endeavor. The guy is offering prizes based, in large measure, on the amount of publicity, sponsorships, and media attention he can garner. While other RAID and ECO-Challenge events take similar approaches (and are similarly castigated/defended), the more well-established events make what might be called a 'prudent, reasonable effort to secure the safety and well-being of those involved.' Most of the reputable event organizers arrange with local authorities in advance to supply emergency extraction of injured parties, etc., provide medical attention at regular intervals, and reserve the right to refuse entry or disqualify participants who do not exhibit the basic, necessary skills and abilities to compete with a base line level of safety. In reviewing this event's site, it's clear that the event and its main organizer(s) do not fully grasp the exposure and risk required by this 'competition.' This ambitious enthusiasm might well be channelled into the creation of some future, credible, event. But it appears to be placing participants into the gap between self-promotion and common sense. You may willingly sign a waver to paddle into that gap, and you may well finish unscathed. Paddlewise could also sponsor an annual, "Paddle your kayak over Niagra Falls" contest, the entry fees accumulating until someone finally manages to do so and survive, at which they collect a percentage of the pot. Lots of great photo-ops there, too. In a larger sense, this also nothing new. Read the recent nonfiction book: Ada Blackjack: A True Story of Survival In The Arctic, by Jennifer Niven, about the doomed Wrangel Island Expedition of 1921. Vilhjalmur Stefansson was especially accomplished at selling a vision of the Arctic environs as 'easily survivable for those who could hunt from the plentiful game...more hospitable and safer than any American city!' Of course, he never actually accompanied this fateful expedition and all but Ada Blackjack died before a 'rescue' was accomplished one year later than originally planned. No shortage of people eager to sell us a vision of adventure at their profit and our expense. -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have been following this discussion and finally went to the website to have a look. It seems to me that this is possibly a thinly veiled knock-off of the Survivor series without all the money and support services the Survivor show enjoys. Kate Davis *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have made contact with him and I am sharing my concerns. He contacted another seakayak web site that I am on and read the posts and is asking advice on safety and the race course. He seems willing to listen. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Rev. Bob Carter" <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net> >I have made contact with him and I am sharing my concerns...He seems willing to listen. So did I. I doubt anyone will be able to dissuade him from his plans of hosting the race...but I do think he's willing to alter them. Judging from the timing, it may have been Rev. Bob's and my emails that may have convinced him to select a more inside route. Now I'm trying to encourage him to drop the 'Survivor' stuff! Then, it might be a worthwhile race! Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:23 AM 1/30/2004 -0800, Shawn Baker wrote: >From: "Rev. Bob Carter" <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net> > >I have made contact with him and I am sharing my concerns...He seems >willing to listen. > >So did I. > >I doubt anyone will be able to dissuade him from his plans of hosting >the race...but I do think he's willing to alter them. I wonder if he's willing to alter the location? Since he lives in Hawaii I wonder why he didn't plan the race there instead of Alaska. It would seem to me that there would be more television appeal if paddlers were wearing fewer clothes. "I'm too sexy for my drysuit" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I suspect that for the organizer, the "Survivor" aspect is the key to the whole thing. I suspect he sees some $$$ possibilities. I think he could be more original and still make it a worthwhile series for OLN or other cable network. But, I suspect he hopes to make a good profit and thinks copying Survivor is the best chance. If you want him to change his idea you will probably need to offer a better scheme for making it pay. Maybe reconstituting "Iditayak" (assuming it doesn't still exist). Nick On Jan 30, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Shawn Baker wrote: > > Now I'm trying to encourage him to drop the 'Survivor' stuff! Then, it > might be a worthwhile race! > > Shawn Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:12 PM 1/30/2004 -0500, Nick Schade wrote: >I suspect that for the organizer, the "Survivor" aspect is the key to the >whole thing. I suspect he sees some $$$ possibilities. I think he could be >more original and still make it a worthwhile series for OLN or other cable >network. But, I suspect he hopes to make a good profit and thinks copying >Survivor is the best chance. If you want him to change his idea you will >probably need to offer a better scheme for making it pay. Maybe >reconstituting "Iditayak" (assuming it doesn't still exist). Even "Survivor" always holds it challenges in warm climate venues. Having a bunch of half naked people running around on beaches would get better ratings than a bunch of young people in thick parkas on "Survivor Greenland". As a venue for a Survivor like kayak race I think Hawaii would have lots of benefits. It could provide a significantly long race with lots of opportunities for on land challenges as well. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 30 Jan 2004 at 15:27, John Fereira wrote: > Even "Survivor" always holds it challenges in warm climate venues. > Having a bunch of half naked people running around on beaches would > get better ratings than a bunch of young people in thick parkas on > "Survivor Greenland". What's interesting is the difference between the US version and the original UK version of the show. The Brits sent a bunch of competitors to Canada for one show. They dropped them in the wilderness just north of Frontenac Provincial Park (just north, in turn, of Kingston, ON). They chose the spring, which put them into: Prime mosquito and blackfly season. Very cold lakes and rivers. Warm days and cold nights. etc. They had to canoe their way to freedom - but they didn't know how to canoe. The competitors weren't chosen for their cleavage and they barely survived. Them yankee survivors are such wimps by comparison. :-) Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:46 PM 2/1/2004 -0500, Michael Daly wrote: >On 30 Jan 2004 at 15:27, John Fereira wrote: > > > Even "Survivor" always holds it challenges in warm climate venues. > > Having a bunch of half naked people running around on beaches would > > get better ratings than a bunch of young people in thick parkas on > > "Survivor Greenland". > >What's interesting is the difference between the US version and the >original UK version of the show. The Brits sent a bunch of >competitors to Canada for one show. They dropped them in the >wilderness just north of Frontenac Provincial Park (just north, in >turn, of Kingston, ON). They chose the spring, which put them into: > >Prime mosquito and blackfly season. >Very cold lakes and rivers. >Warm days and cold nights. >etc. > >They had to canoe their way to freedom - but they didn't know how to >canoe. The competitors weren't chosen for their cleavage and they >barely survived. Which series has been a greater commercial success? The Brit version or the U.S. version? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 2 Feb 2004 at 10:50, John Fereira wrote: > Which series has been a greater commercial success? The Brit version > or the U.S. version? I have no idea. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> On 2 Feb 2004 at 10:50, John Fereira wrote: > > Which series has been a greater commercial success? The Brit version > or the U.S. version? Is commercial success ("good for business") the measure of the worth of all things? Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:09 PM 2/2/2004 -0500, Carey Parks wrote: > > On 2 Feb 2004 at 10:50, John Fereira wrote: > > > > Which series has been a greater commercial success? The Brit version > > or the U.S. version? > >Is commercial success ("good for business") the measure of the worth of all >things? No. I don't think anyone is claiming that it is. I was adding my two cents on the speculation that the guy planning the kayak race in Alaska was trying to create a "Survivor" like reality tv show. In other words, presumably commercial success *is* his primary goal. Based on that premise, I offered some ideas on how to faciliate a potentially more successful endeavor. IMHO, there are a couple of things that make Survivor so popular. First, is that the contestants have some sort of appeal. Most are either young and sexy or they quickly show themselves to be someone that everyone loves to hate. Holding the event at a venue where the participants are likely going to wear fewer clothes is likely going to draw a bigger audience than if the contestants are always bundled up in heavy parkas. The other thing I think makes Survivor successful is that, for the most part, the contestants are just regular people, making easier for the audience to identify with them easier. For the Alaska race as described, the level of skill required to complete the race, is likely held by a very small percentage of the worlds population. I think someone mentioned one particular section that may not have been by anyone with the possible exception of Paul Caffyn. I'm not suggesting that the race be structured such that is resembles Battle of the Network Stars, but making it so difficult that basically a handful of people could even complete the race isn't likely going to make it interesting to the general population. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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