<snip> > But if one is suspicious of their combat roll why not make a snorkel > breathing tube and run it under your spray deck and use that until your roll improves? > > Cheers, > > Rob G A great idea, and one that can "buy time" to solve entrapment, deploy floats, etc. and remain in the boat. Here are some of the ideas I've been thinking about... comments, anyone? (Disclaimer: no personal involvement w/products or websites; links are just FYI): Here's a link to a snorkel that might work... it can be purged after total submersion and the mouthpiece seems to rotate for "inverted" use down into the sprayskirt: http://www.diversdirect.com/scripts/ecatalogisapi.dll/Item?Item=5804&Templat e=CONVERT158CONVRT&Group=96 Here's the top-of-the-line option: an air pony tank and simple regulator setup that provides at least 5 minutes of air. Check it out: http://www.divesales.com/cgibin/htmlos.cgi/p.a.g.e/pony/index.html/001137.1.7 467641277 The air tank is small (the size of a bike water bottle) and the setup is 5 pounds total when jacked to 3000 psi. You can mount the tank under the sprayskirt and have a simple hose with a bite-valve come up to your PFD. Entrapment? Nope, dude, you've got air! You can even use some of the air to fill a paddle float while remaining upside downand and skip the CO2 cartridge/$25 refills! Ridiculous, or useful? What unforeseen problems could you solve if only you were *granted* 5 minutes of air: sandal strap caught... PFD strap jammed somewhere... kayaking buddy having difficulty getting lined up for a bow rescue? Or, for the warm-water crowd: as you rolled, your Bolle sunglasses fell off into 30 feet of water... bail out, grab the pony tank, dive for them, and do a wet re-entry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:06 PM 2/5/2004 -0500, you wrote: ><snip> > > But if one is suspicious of their combat roll why not make a snorkel > > breathing tube and run it under your spray deck and use that until your >roll improves? > >\ Cool options. Wasn't the 'original' suggestion was simply a tube (with mouthpiece?) presumably run under your PFD and into your spray skirt and down into your cockpit - you'd have plenty of air to breath for quite a while (albeit the air could be nasty smelling/tasting!). You have to give a puff to clear the tube - then you could breath away. Has anyone ever actually done this - or is this just some wildhair idea? K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > > But if one is suspicious of their combat roll why not make a snorkel > > > breathing tube and run it under your spray deck and use that > until your > >roll improves? > Has anyone ever actually done this - or is this just some wildhair idea? > > K I've not tried it, but I read that the human lung can inhale when submerged only up to two feet due to the pressure of the water. Now, parts of your lung will be less, and some maybe more. I know it's tough to snorkle when hanging vertical in the water, while floating prone on top is fine. Ya know, when something is a back-up for a couple critical system that have failed - your ability to stay upright, followed by your ability to recover from THAT failure, your options better be darn simple and guarenteed to work. I can imagine being knocked down, then trying a roll or two or three, depending on if I can snag a breath, and by then not really wanting to fiddle around with any options that are in any way complicated or have much of a chance of failure - like the tube pulling out, or the water that seeped into the cockpit and the hose finding the same low point etc. A gag reflex while counting fishes isn't a good thing. No experience however, so take my thoughts with an ounce of saltwater. C *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Has anyone ever actually done this - or is this just some wildhair idea? Back when my roll was new I toyed with the idea of using a pony bottle in the kayak just in case. But I soon figured out that I could pretty much do the same thing a lot easier and with considerably less bulk and expense by simply using a snorkel. My snorkel was made from about a three foot section of garden hose with a mouthpiece taped to one end. The hose was then run through the sprayskirt and into the boat. While inverted in the kayak I actually found it quite easy to breath. I should mention, however, that I have many years of freediving experience while breathing through snorkels. I used the snorkel for practicing rolling and just turning over in the boat to sight see. Once, while practicing rolling I spent quite a long time under water, several minutes, while I tried to actually analyze a slow motion roll. When I came up there was a guy on the beach in the process of tearing off his clothes while running into the water, presumably to rescue me. I quickly paddled off feeling rather embarrassed. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My home number is 250 478 5476 (not 5479). Last post incorrect. Probably should go to bed. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Original Message: ----------------- From: Keith Wrage keith.wrage_at_charter.net Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:18:57 -0600 To: paddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roll-aid PLUS At 06:06 PM 2/5/2004 -0500, you wrote: ><snip> > > But if one is suspicious of their combat roll why not make a snorkel > > breathing tube and run it under your spray deck and use that until your >roll improves? > >\ I met a paddler that rigged up a set up like this. He added a screw top entry into his spray skirt to access his under deck bag without removing his skirt. Through the screw top he cut a small hole and ran a piece of 1/2 tubing, like a long straw that feed into his cockpit. The straw had a plastic cap to help keep out water. He would use this when he was learning his roll so he could hang out under water and make several attempts while catching an extra breath from time to time. Admittedly it was a crude set-up with room for improvement but it did work. One change he did plan on making was a wider diameter tubing to have a better airflow. He was quite a creative fellow with all sorts of interesting gadgets. Debbie Long time lurker http://mail2web.com/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Keith posted (snip): >>You have to give a puff to clear the tube - then you could breath away. Has anyone ever actually done this - or is this just some wildhair idea?<< I've got a kayak-specific breathing tube. I don't like it. It's difficult to breath with upside-down, with the pressure on your chest. The slightest bit of water in it is too easily inhaled, prior to a full-blow clearing unless you've gone over with a full breath. I'd go for the Roll-aid device before buying a tube (or any other breathing devices) if I had to do it over again (make safety-gear purchases, that is). There, how about that? A product endorsement and I'm not even the designer -- or a friend of his! I do think paddlers can work toward a very reliable roll. After a certain point, its not about practice or technique anymore (if it still is, you need some help). After a suitable period of development, failed combat rolls are attributable to pure psychological issues -- in my opinion. Two of the most underrated articles I've ever read in Sea Kayaker magazine were one by Doug Alderson on mind-games to get you back up, and more recently, one by Roger on breathing techniques. Another point to bear in mind is that when you go over, you just don't want to come out of your boat. Until this has happened (perhaps more than once for some of us) in a bad situation, you can't comprehend how important it is to stay in the cockpit and self-right eventually. If a roll fails me now, I don't concentrate on flailing away, getting a good set-up, or fine-tuning my hip-flick. I simply skull to the surface, even if only for a second, get some damn air fast, then fall back over or simply resubmerg fully. Then, with some fresh air, I can concentrate on my roll efforts. I don't care how long it takes, I don't care how painful it gets -- I'm not coming out of my boat. There were times in my past that a Roll-aid may have prevented a rescue and/or long, cold swim. Whether I would have had the wherewithal to pull the inflation-initiator on the Roll-aid or not, I don't know. Like I said (objectively), I didn't get any feedback. I could say that as far as I know, sales of the Roll-aid perhaps have not been that great. This doesn't denote the fact that the product hasn't been well designed or endorsed. No, I think paddlers just don't like spending that much money on safety products, no matter how good the calibre. That is unfortunate. As things settled out in my rescue strategies, I decided to retain a Sea Seat, simply because little else compares if a boat-separation issue occurs. I can also tow a PIW with it if I had to. And it makes an incredible re-entry platform, bar none. It is no longer made, so much of this is mute now (but not for me). I carry it in a pouch on the back of my inflatable vest -- out of sight, there when and if needed. I carry a small Paddlefloat on my front deck. It requires minimal inflation time, is highly accessible, occupies space not alloted for anything else -- and would be ideal for a paddlefloat-assisted re-enter and roll. As a backup, I carry a larger, double-chamber unit like Matt sells. It offers increased support for full-on paddlfloat re-entry, especially in rougher seas. It sits in the rear NorthWater net deck-bag. Both sit flat and take up little room. With dual paddlefloat options and a spare paddle, I can even help out an injured or disabled paddler with port and starboard outriggers if needed. I've practiced this is rough water with friends. Of course, nothing beats remaining in your boat. This is where the Roll-aid shines, and as long as an entry-level paddler doesn't buy one in order to negate personal responsibility toward pre-emptive paddling, then fine. The intermediate paddler without a full-on, solid roll, is best served by this product. Maybe they should paddle with other paddlers too. For the more advanced paddler, they are in a position to judge for themselves as far as the desirability of the Roll-aid. An advanced paddler is going to have rock-solid bracing and sculling skills, not to mention a number of well-versed rolls. Solid bracing skills will work 49,999 times out of 50,000. And they don't cost anything. Always paddle presumptively. Assume you may get into trouble. See the recent Sea Kayaker for a story about a small outing gone bad. Cover the scenarios. Don't depend on anything, anyone, any device, or any skill that is untried, untested, suspect, or in anyway, unreliable. Decide what kind of paddling you are going to do. Will you be the type to avoid danger and trouble at any cost, or are you looking for some fun and to test your emerging skills and sports-related seamanship. The two are entirely different attitudes. Admit, adapt, and adjust to the reality of the kind of paddler you are. Train, equip, and go for it...for tomorrow (or sooner or later) we all die. Anyway, here's a list of free and/or cheap gear if anyone is interested: Breathing tube Solid foam float Camp grill Dromary bag Short booties Javelin fleece Farmer John (short) Spray skirt-neo Lots of other stuff No seal bladders, however Doug Lloyd Hm (250) 478-5479 Wk (250) 952 3022 Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd said I do think paddlers can work toward a very reliable roll. Another point to bear in mind is that when you go over, you just don't want to come out of your boat. Any of us who has been, or is, a paddler of whitewater will probably agree that rolling is such a vital safety skill that it should be the first of line of safety, not a "maybe" one. It really isn't such a hard skill, lots and lots of people can do it. Even me. And once you know how to roll, you'll probably take the time to set up your boat, or buy one already set up, so that it CAN be rolled. Eric Jackson, the supernaturally talented whitewater paddler, has written a lot about rolling. An article that is available on the Internet gives some really good advice about improving one's roll. It includes a phrase that will sound familiar to everyone who read Doug's submission: "1. Decide that you NEVER swim." Read it at www.ringwood.canoe.btinternet.co.uk/rolling.htm Hope this helps. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Eric Jackson, the supernaturally talented whitewater paddler, has written > a lot about rolling. An article that is available on the Internet gives > some really good advice about improving one's roll. It includes a phrase > that will sound familiar to everyone who read Doug's submission: "1. > Decide that you NEVER swim." > > Read it at www.ringwood.canoe.btinternet.co.uk/rolling.htm > > Hope this helps. > > Jim Tibensky Good article. I can't always muster a roll when out of position, etc. It would be nice to pull one off from just about any position - perhaps something to work toward. A local paddler was out a week or two ago in a major blow. A unexpected wave backsurfed him, whereupon it broke, causing a flip as the stern dug in over the reef break. He's a remarkable paddler, but couldn't pull off his off-side roll effectively. He was able to reposition to his better side and get up, while his friends were getting ready to intervene. My point was that sometimes you can't pull off the roll, and flail away slightly more than half submerged, eventually running out of air. Better to grab some air and/or force yourself into a better position for coming back up in a manner that works. And stay in your boat. Anyway, enjoyed the link. On the matter of C02 devices, has anyone used the new Seal Line paddlefloat with inflator? I don't recall any reviews anywhere, but may have been remiss in noticing any reviews. http://www.seallinegear.com/touring.asp?Action=PaddleFloats Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 10 Feb 2004 at 22:45, Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Read it at www.ringwood.canoe.btinternet.co.uk/rolling.htm > > I like that site, Jim - I added a link to it on my kayak rolling web page. > Good article. I can't always muster a roll when out of position, etc. > It would be nice to pull one off from just about any position - > perhaps something to work toward. Definitely. I encourage folks to learn to roll from the "four corners" of the kayak. You should be able to set up forward both on- and offside as well as from the rear deck on- and offside. Normal sweep rolls (or C-C) can be done from a forward setup on both sides. For rear deck setup, start with something like a Steyr roll (aka Back Pawlata, Lean Back) and work through the Short Steyr to a kind of reverse C-C or reverse sweep roll. I can only do three of the corners - rear deck setup offside puts too much stress on my rotator cuff. :-( Once you've got front and rear on both sides, add in the side-only rolls - Butterfly, Put Across (floating paddle type) and so on. If you can do this from both sides, then you can pretty much roll from any position. Also, from this point, you can learn almost any roll, since most rolls are combinations and variations of what you have learned for the four corners and two sides. > Better to grab some air and/or force yourself into a better position > for coming back up in a manner that works. And stay in your boat. Better yet to come up with a different roll that works in the position you find yourself. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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