Paddlewisers, All of this recent fuss about GPSs on Paddlewise has reminded me how much I really hate the things. Although I sometimes carry a GPS for back-up, they really take the fun out of piloting and dead reckoning. I can't seem to get some of my friends to turn the dang things off either. It really ticks me off when they tell me I'm off course too. I enjoy being off course and not knowing exactly where I'm at all the time. Like I try to tell some of my friends, we're not navigating to the moon. On the other hand, I have had some rather fond moments with my friends using their GPSs, for example, when the batteries go dead, they can't figure out how to use them on the fly, or they drop them over the side and sink down to Davy's locker, all of which I've seen more than once. Another particularly fond moment was on crossing when I was looking at our destination and a friend was looking down at his GPS. By the way, I've had the same GPS and waterproof case now for about 5 years, and both are holding up just fine, because I usually keep them where they belong, in the day hatch. Duane Strosaker Southern California www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane wrote: > > By the way, I've had the same GPS and waterproof case now for about 5 years, > and both are holding up just fine, because I usually keep them where they > belong, in the day hatch. Well said. My Garmin 38 (the last live one in the world?) lives a similar life, and is even older by a few years. I wouldn't mind a 60CS though, or perhaps a Silva Multi-Navigator. Allan Singleton Hamilton NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/12/2004 9:08:20 PM Central Standard Time, strosaker_at_cox.net writes: > By the way, I've had the same GPS and waterproof case now for about 5 > years, > and both are holding up just fine, because I usually keep them where they > belong, in the day hatch. > Now there's an idea! Thanks Duane. Time to dust off the ol' compass. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
first Duane... > > By the way, I've had the same GPS and waterproof case now for about 5 > > years, > > and both are holding up just fine, because I usually keep them where they > > belong, in the day hatch. > > then.. Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > >Now there's an idea! Thanks Duane. Time to dust off the ol' compass. GPS? Some of us just have fun with gadgets. I've got friends who can't believe I paddle off the coast in winter :) Compass? Well I could say, there may have been ancient mariners who shook their heads in dismay for the same reason Duane does. The real question is... what are we going to do when the magnetic anomalies all over the world increase in intensity? As we fast approach the time when our planet shifts its poles, we'll no doubt have a hard time trusting the wildly swinging needles of our compasses. Ah ya... (as they say around these parts of NE), irony in spades! We'll be thankful for those geostationary babies above us that can triangulate our position. And I'll be thankful that the built-in compass I have in my Meridian is not the expensive digital add-on for which some people paid extra $. Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 13 Feb 2004 at 16:51, Allan & Joyce Singleton wrote: > I wouldn't mind a 60CS though Garmin just announced a 76C and 76CS - colour versions of the marine 76. Most (all?) the features of the 60 merged into the almost venerable 76. A daylight readable colour screen sounds cool. It's on their web site. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Well said. My Garmin 38 (the last live one in the world?) lives a > similar life, and is even older by a few years I got one also!! Still got problems with my 12V plug in connection. Years ago, he 38 was cheap, one of the last. Poor Jochen, if I would had waited for 6 further months, it could had been a Garmin 12, for same good price. Without the 12V problem! The only ttime, when I REALLY had a need for my GPS, it failed. Gone OFF and nobody knows why. Later, it was OK, like nothing ever had happened. Seems, a little devil lives in my 38er. That4s Life... Muk datt gut = All the Best Jochen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My Etrex doesn't get used for navigation. It's just a fun way to look at your miles traveled, current speed, max speed and other interesting (IMHO) info. If you are navigating with it, and don't already possess rock solid manual navigation skills and have the tools on-board with you, you're setting yourself up for big trouble - or is that "Deep Trouble". Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Feb 13, 2004, at 8:21 AM, <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> wrote: > My Etrex doesn't get used for navigation. It's just a fun way to look > at your miles traveled, current speed, max speed and other interesting > (IMHO) info. I agree. There is a certain amount of fun to be gained from spending a day paddling and ending up with a picture like this http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/gallery/StonTriangle/IMG_1977 Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/13/2004 5:22:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com writes: > My Etrex doesn't get used for navigation. It's just a fun way to look > at your miles traveled, current speed, max speed and other interesting > (IMHO) info. Yup, that's how I use my Etrex. Not for navigation. I like to sail my kayak and it tells how well I am using the wind, sail and rudder to get the best speeds. Tony Niilus *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There is a more or less famous story, in circles of competition sailors, from before the time of GPS navigation. A sailor, under full sail in the middle of a race, looked at his log and at the tidal charts, and decided that according to his information he was actually moving backwards. Keeping his sails up, he secretly dropped his anchor, and indeed: When the anchor hit the seabottom he saw his waterspeed increasing. He won the race. Using GPS would mean that everybody would drop his anchor as standard procedure. Whether this is an advantage of GPS or not is up to you. Of course, electronics can fail when you most need them. So can the human brain. My intelligence has been tested a few weeks ago, and although I may consider myself "gifted", I realize I am especially gifted in getting lost. In navigation, my GPS is much more reliable then my wandering mind. People tend to have limitless faith in their own abilities, much more then in technology. That's why we have so many traffic accidents. The only time my GPS gave me a wrong bearing, I had entered a wrong waypoint. Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Like a lot of other posters, I carry my GPS as a backup, not a primary means of navigation. I never venture out of sight of shore, so GPS is there in case a sudden fog blows in, I get disoriented or some other calamity occurs. I record waypoints at the beginning of a trip and at significant points along the way. When I'm in an inland lake I usually use it just for fun, checking my speed and so forth. Although, once or twice I've used it on an unfamiliar lake to find my way back to the put-in. (Anyone here who has paddled inland at Point Pelee knows that when it gets hazy over the marsh you can find yourself lost in a very small place!) As for the weatherpoofness of the eTrex: Given the design of the gasket I assume it's splashproof at best. Mine goes in a vinyl pouch/drybag with flotation designed for cell phones and GPS units. That bag goes into a deckbag or is tied to a deck ring. I may follow the advice of another poster and wrap some tape (maybe 3M 2228 or 2229) over the gap on trips where I want to be extra careful. -- mike -------------------------- Michael Edelman http://foldingkayaks.org http://findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick said; > I agree. There is a certain amount of fun to be gained from spending a > day paddling and ending up with a picture like this > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/gallery/StonTriangle/IMG_1977 Wow! 53.42 NM in one day! Begs the questions to everyone... 1. What's the most miles you ever paddled in one stretch... including short rest stops, but not long layovers? 2. What is the most amount of continuous hours paddled... including a rest break, but not a long layover? Mine isn't that impressive. Actually, it stinks. The most miles is just under 20 and the longest duration is only about 6 hours. All that was done in a Rec boat (Perception's Carolina) but it will all change in about 2 weeks when my Strip Built Outer Island will be done! It's a 17'10" by 21" low volume Greenland style. It's so close to getting wet I can barely stand it! :-) Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Feb 13, 2004, at 9:37 AM, <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> wrote: > Nick said; > >> I agree. There is a certain amount of fun to be gained from spending a >> day paddling and ending up with a picture like this >> http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/gallery/StonTriangle/IMG_1977 > > Wow! 53.42 NM in one day! Begs the questions to everyone... > Look closely, it is statute miles, not nautical. It would look more impressive if I had used km for a total of 85.97 This is my record. I can't say it was fun to do. It was much more fun to look at GPS at the end of the day after it was over with. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm enjoying this thread. Many thoughtful contributions. I am a late convert to GPS use, partly due to Luddite tendencies, partly because I am near-obsessed with "knowing where I am," from too many years wandering in the mountains ... and those tendencies moved over onto the water intact. Like Duane, I enjoy the process of traditional navigation, and have been in some interesting pickles when my process needed a re-tooling [grin]! But, missing the view is the main reason my GPS is on deck but unconsulted most of the time. I watched a guy in the Broken Group steam back to camp, counting down the metres to his camp, eyes glued to his screen, and wondered why he came out to that beautiful place. He could get the countdown experience in his driveway, if he wanted. I use mine to nail down the odd waypoint when I find something interesting, to look at my track when I return out of plain curiosity, and store waypoints for hazards ahead of time. The last saved my bacon once, making my GPS worth the hassle. I have a friend who is completely chart challenged, and this guy would not have made it back on a couple loop trips he did solo except for the GPS. Dead batteries for him would be a disaster. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> But, missing the view is the main reason my GPS is on deck but unconsulted > most of the time. I watched a guy in the Broken Group steam back to camp, > counting down the metres to his camp, eyes glued to his screen, and wondered > why he came out to that beautiful place. He could get the countdown > experience in his driveway, if he wanted. He came there to play with electroincs (may be without realizing that :-). I, for one, use GPS for first paddling along unknown route - to store waypoints or locate campsites uploaded to GPS in advance. Otherwise it is mostly a backup, or a toy to watch my speed. I wouldn't tell, btw, what consumes more time - plotting and calculating using dead reckoning under unsteady speed/wind conditions, or periodical glancing at GPS screen and laminated map (screen map sucks), whenever I feel that should change the course. Coming back to familiar place in darkness or fog is also easier with GPS - eventually faster. I recall now a story about kayaker blown off to the sea at Hawaii. It took 2 or 3 days to find him after he placed his distress call. Would take much less if he knew his exact location. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/gallery/StonTriangle/IMG_1977 > Look closely, it is statute miles, not nautical. It would look more > impressive if I had used km for a total of 85.97 > > This is my record. I can't say it was fun to do. It was much more fun > to look at GPS at the end of the day after it was over with. Nick, I'm still impressed :-) So, what's with all the glass boats in the pics? Shouldn't it be against the rules to paddle with "The" Nick Schade in anything but a stripper? :-) BTW - the 4th picture in the series is ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL! Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/13/2004 8:40:08 AM Central Standard Time, keith.wrage_at_charter.net writes: > I've wondered about this - do they allow GPS use on commercial airline > flights? nothing that sends or recieves a signal is allowed to be switched on. I know because I hear that famous line several times a month. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 2004-02-13 at 14:32, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/13/2004 8:40:08 AM Central Standard Time, > keith.wrage_at_charter.net writes: > > > > I've wondered about this - do they allow GPS use on commercial airline > > flights? > > nothing that sends or recieves a signal is allowed to be switched on. I know > because I hear that famous line several times a month. Actually it depends on the airline (and they tend to flop back and forth on the issue). Boeing has no issues with GPS during cruise for passenger Carry-on Electronics for their aircraft. As per the following service letters for each aircraft variant: 707-SL-02-002-A 727-SL-02-002-A 737-SL-02-002-A 747-SL-02-002-A 757-SL-02-002-A 767-SL-02-002-A 777-SL-02-002-A My list of Airlines that approve GPS use is a couple years old since last updated but this one seems to be updated: http://gpsinformation.net/airgps/airgps.htm The issue is fairly silly in my view (as a Commercial licenced pilot). Certainly *we* use them during all phases of flight (including portable ones). -Craig Bowers *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> really hate the things. Although I sometimes carry a GPS for back-up, they > really take the fun out of piloting and dead reckoning. I can't seem to get > some of my friends to turn the dang things off either. What really takes the fun out of paddling is a cell-phone or pager. GPS is just a harmless toy compared to it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:57 PM 2/12/2004 -0800, alex wrote: > > really hate the things. Although I sometimes carry a GPS for back-up, they > > really take the fun out of piloting and dead reckoning. I can't seem to >get > > some of my friends to turn the dang things off either. > >What really takes the fun out of paddling is a cell-phone or pager. GPS is >just a harmless toy compared to it. I have taken my cell-phone while paddling on a couple of occasions. In one case, I was teaching a class at the time when I received and answered a call. It was from my wife telling me that her water had just broke...and, yes, I finished the lesson. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 12 Feb 2004 at 19:07, Strosaker wrote: > they really take the fun out of piloting and dead reckoning. [...] > By the way, I've had the same GPS and waterproof case now for about 5 > years, and both are holding up just fine, because I usually keep them > where they belong, in the day hatch. I'm in this camp too - though I don't _hate_ GPS, I just don't find it useful most of the time. The last time I had one on deck was when geocache searching in the harbour area (spit and islands where a few caches were stashed.) I've only used the GPS once "for real" when even dead reckoning wasn't making me comfortable - a long featureless shoreline with no discernable landmarks. We set up camp and I verified where we were. You can always use dead reckoning and piloting. It's a skill a lot of experienced paddlers I've been tripping with don't have! I learned it sailing and enjoy using it kayaking. GPS may be a neat gadget, but it's boring navigation. Everything in its place and my GPS is in the hatch for emergencies only. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have paddled in several low visibility situations that simultaneously warranted having the thing turned on for safety, and yet proved that it wasn't really needed at all. During one particularly frightening experience I cursed myself for not having it with me, but once we "made it" I was quite pleased with myself for doing it with only a map and compass. I agree they are a good backup tool. Also, IMO, any navigational situation that actually requires one to survive (there are some) is probably not worth the risk. One aspect of backup that hasn't been mentioned is the potential loss of the navigator. Vickie and I frequently paddle in unfamiliar areas with just the two of us. She is not a strong navigator so having a GPS with the launch site and key waypoints marked adds an extra margin of safety in the case that she would need to return or continue without me. We do the same thing on mountain bike rides. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- Paddlewisers, .................. Although I sometimes carry a GPS for back-up, they really take the fun out of piloting and dead reckoning. .......... Duane Strosaker Southern California www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I typically use mine more for driving on business trips than kayaking, however, it is a wonderful aid in the everglades where you don't have any landmarks to speak of and the mangroves all blend together. A small mistake can mean lots of paddling. I also enjoy using it while flying commercially. Keeps the pilot honest! Being a GPS Luddite is a bit unnecessary. I'll bet they used to laugh at kayaks made of plastics. Cya! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I also enjoy using it while flying commercially. >Keeps the pilot honest! I've wondered about this - do they allow GPS use on commercial airline flights? I've considered doing it several times just for fun but have always opted not to - figuring I'd end up cuffed and stuffed for supposedly calling in the plane's position to someone.... Just curious - is it OK? K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Most US airlines have no problem. Some foreign airlines specifically prohibit GPS use. It's usually interesting to identify various rivers, inlets, islands, etc you can see from the air. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> On the other hand, I have had some rather fond moments with my friends using > their GPSs, for example, when the batteries go dead, they can't figure out > how to use them on the fly, or they drop them over the side and sink down to > Davy's locker, all of which I've seen more than once. Another particularly > fond moment was on crossing when I was looking at our destination and a > friend was looking down at his GPS. My career soldier son, who was in Desert Shield/Desert Storm, has some amusing stories of the use of GPS when his division swung wide into Iraq to cut off the Republican Guard. Some tank commanders had grown so blindly dependent on their GPSs that they tended to not consult their topo maps much. They wind up coming to screetching halts at the edge of deep gullies or going into dead end waddies. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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