I have to second Tom Yost's sentiment about folders. Why do they have to be big, beamy, stable and slow? If some of the greatest features of folders are their flexible skin on frame construction like Inuit kayaks...then why not folders designed more closely after...Inuit kayaks? Not to diminish some of the great expeditions done by the likes of John Dowd, Paul Theroux, or Dr. Hannes Lindemann in their folders, but few of us have the time (or maybe the spirit?) for such trips. Why a huge cargo-carrying monster for a day trip? If wide, short, slow kayaks were great for all paddling, the hardshell market would reflect it. Instead, more and more hardshells are designed for speed, maneuverability, and performance....surely these things would be advantageous to the apartment dweller or world traveler? I'm also a little curious why commercial folder manufacturers don't experiment more with different designs. Folders are somewhat costly to produce...this is reflected in their sale price. But: most of this cost is in labor and materials, not tooling. It costs an arm and a leg for a hardshell manufacturer to turn out a new rotomold mold for a new plastic kayak. It costs an arm and a couple of toes for a composite mold. Relative to these costs, it's practically free to build a different folder design (materials and labor similar, but tooling would hardly change at all). Feathercraft's Khatsalano and Khat-S are fun little boats, but why not pick up a little gear space as length instead of width, and you could have a great speedy boat for weeklong trips with maybe a little surfing or rough water play on the way! Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Shawn wrote: >I have to second Tom Yost's sentiment about folders. Why do they have >to be big, beamy, stable and slow? <snip> >Feathercraft's Khatsalano and Khat-S are fun little boats, but why not >pick up a little gear space as length instead of width, and you could >have a great speedy boat for weeklong trips with maybe a little surfing >or rough water play on the way! I'm somewhat curious about the "bolt together" kayaks. I think they come in three sections and some come with/in a carrying case. Are they an option between the typical kayak and a folder? Anyone have any experience here? -- cheers, Stephen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I'm somewhat curious about the "bolt together" kayaks. I think they come in > three sections and some come with/in a carrying case. Are they an option > between the typical kayak and a folder? Anyone have any experience here? In the summer 1991 issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine is an article by Steven J. Szarawarski detailing how to turn your hard shelled boat into a three piece take-a-part. You begin by taking your boat and cutting it into three pieces! Probably the most frightening article I have ever read in SK, which to this day still causes me to occasionally wake up in the middle of the night screaming :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > I'm somewhat curious about the "bolt together" kayaks. I think they come in > > three sections and some come with/in a carrying case. Are they an option > > between the typical kayak and a folder? Anyone have any experience here? > > > In the summer 1991 issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine is an article by Steven > J. Szarawarski detailing how to turn your hard shelled boat into a three piece > take-a-part. You begin by taking your boat and cutting it into three pieces! > Probably the most frightening article I have ever read in SK, which to this day > still causes me to occasionally wake up in the middle of the night screaming > :-) They are exactly this: three piece hardshell kayaks. Transporting such pieces in airplane isn't much easier than complete rigid hull. Definitely, I wouldn't get on a Mexican bus with such a luggage, like I did with a Feathercraft. When assembled, they behave as a rigid hull, don't flex like folder or SOF, so you don't have this feeling of being close to nature forces. On the other hand, they will have seams/joints in the hull - something that neither hardshells nor folders don't have, and I'm happy they don't. I haven't had a 3-piece kayak, though :-). As I recall, Ralph didn't find necessary to cover this topic in his "Complete Folding Kayaker", which should mean for us mortals that they aren't folders. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At one of Canoecopia's presentations, Nigel had a slide that showed how the three piece kayaks were packed on his Antarctica expedition. The group's kayaks, when broken down, fit into a standard aircraft cargo container. He referred to the freight charge as "nominal." A piece of cargo six feet long, three feet wide and a foot and a half deep weighing ~ 20 pounds is not that extraordinary for airline cargo as opposed to an eighteen foot one piece kayak. The concept must be sound if he trusts them in Antarctica. > > > I'm somewhat curious about the "bolt together" kayaks. I think they come > in > > > three sections and some come with/in a carrying case. Are they an option > > > between the typical kayak and a folder? Anyone have any experience here? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> three piece kayaks were packed on his Antarctica expedition. The group's > kayaks, when broken down, fit into a standard aircraft cargo container. He > referred to the freight charge as "nominal." A piece of cargo six feet > long, three feet wide and a foot and a half deep weighing ~ 20 pounds is not > that extraordinary for airline cargo as opposed to an eighteen foot one > piece kayak. Still it's a cargo, not check-in luggage. Must cost close to another ticket price (not to mention half-price seat sales that we enjoy so much :-). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thinks its worth making the point that as far as manoeuverability in really rough water is concerned some folders eg the Klepper are already very high performance and can make use of many if not all of the skills of a hardshell paddler as well as being forgiving for the beginner. They are just not all that fast in headwinds when paddling with a skilled group of paddlers in hardshells designed to be fast. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn Baker <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: >>I have to second Tom Yost's sentiment about folders. Why do they have to be big, beamy, stable and slow?[snip]>> >>Why a huge cargo-carrying monster for a day trip? [snip]>> >>I'm also a little curious why commercial folder manufacturers don't experiment more with different designs [snip]>> >>Feathercraft's Khatsalano and Khat-S are fun little boats, but why not pick up a little gear space as length instead of width, and you could have a great speedy boat for weeklong trips with maybe a little surfing or rough water play on the way!>> Shawn, I confess to be puzzled, also, about these issues. I suspect some of the reasons lie in market share and perception, and some lie in the limitations of skin on aluminum frame (or, wood) construction. Once buyers expect wide beam, high initial stability, and are more attracted to large volume than speed, that is probably what the market (i.e., manufacturers) will provide. Those who want narrow beam, greater speed, and less stability have plenty to choose from among hardshells -- and an enormous market share. The other reason may be in the technology: folders, even the best quality ones, rely on the integrity of take-apart joints for their strength, instead of the monocoque-derived strength of composite (or plastic) hulls. Especially in plastic, roto-molded hulls, a severe stress on the hull can deform it, but the hull can pop back. An aluminum joint can not, even though the hull material in a folder is extremely flexible and resilient. I'm not enough of an engineer to be sure about this last aspect, but maybe Schade and others might comment on it. I bet if you asked folder manufacturers if they would warrant their boats for use in surf you'd get some revealing answers. As for an apparent lack of willingness to experiment with new designs, I suspect that though the initial investment is low relative to tooling for composites or rotomolded hulls, the much smaller expected return (there's market share popping back into the picture) reduces experimentation, especially during times when the sales of new kayaks are way down. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > Once buyers expect wide beam, high initial stability, and are more attracted > to large volume than speed, that is probably what the market (i.e., > manufacturers) will provide. Those who want narrow beam, greater speed, and > less stability have plenty to choose from among hardshells -- and an enormous > market share. > > The other reason may be in the technology: folders, even the best quality > ones, rely on the integrity of take-apart joints for their strength, instead > of the monocoque-derived strength of composite (or plastic) hulls. > Especially in plastic, roto-molded hulls, a severe stress on the hull can > deform it, but the hull can pop back. An aluminum joint can not, even though > the hull material in a folder is extremely flexible and resilient. Agreed. Narrow hardshells are plentiful, cheaper than existing performance folders and are apparently preferred by many. I do't think they are preferred only as a result of existing prejudice towards folders, based on little knowledge, which is in turn based on their little numbers and so on. Even appartment dwellers prefer using performance hardshells (meaning *narrow* - which is not the only criterion, of course) VS performance folders, whenever they can find a pay storage in a local kayaking or sailing club. Engineering problems with narrow and long performance folders of course exist, but I think it's must be mosly market reasons for not making more performance models. Khatsalano is one of performance folders - it's 17 ft long and even with its 22" width it should be roomy enough for a weekend overnight trip. Very few people own them, though F-craft is a well-known company. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 21 Mar 2004 at 13:07, alex wrote: > Khatsalano is one of performance > folders - it's 17 ft long and even with its 22" width it should be > roomy enough for a weekend overnight trip. Very few people own them, > though F-craft is a well-known company. Assuming that the Khat was equivalent in performance to my Ellesmere, the only reason I'd prefer the Ellesmere is that it cost almost one- third the price. I think cost is what keeps the folders from being more popular. My car is currently worth more than my Ellesmere, but less than a new Khat. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > In the summer 1991 issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine is an article by > Steven > > J. Szarawarski detailing how to turn your hard shelled boat into a three > piece > > take-a-part. You begin by taking your boat and cutting it into three > pieces! > > Probably the most frightening article I have ever read in SK, which to > this day > > still causes me to occasionally wake up in the middle of the night > screaming > > :-) As a postscript. I did meet him a bit earlier and did see how he had the boat setup for airline baggage (large fitted canvas bags to hold the pieces (I recall that one nestled into another and so he had two pieces, in effect, to contend with). He had some problems with bending of the flanges that help hold the boat together. Not soon after the article was written, he got rid of the boat. I don't know why. > They are exactly this: three piece hardshell kayaks. Transporting such > pieces in airplane isn't much easier than complete rigid hull. Definitely, > I wouldn't get on a Mexican bus with such a luggage. In such rough travel conditions the problem would be that people would sit on the boat parts as it was in transit as they might any other bulk package. That wouldn't be too good for the fiberglass deck in some places particularly toward the open ends of the pieces. > forces. On the other hand, they will have seams/joints in the hull - > something that neither hardshells nor folders don't have, and I'm happy they > don't. I haven't had a 3-piece kayak, though :-). As I recall, Ralph > didn't find necessary to cover this topic in his "Complete Folding Kayaker", > which should mean for us mortals that they aren't folders. When I wrote the book I had to make a basic decision of what to cover. I also left out inflatables. What I wanted to concentrate on was skin over frame kayaks that have such an illustrious long history. Inflatables don't, sectional hardshells neither. That wasn't a supermortal decision, just a practical one of not diluting the contents by going into stray directions. There was so much to write about on skin foldable boats. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have an Easy Rider 2 piece double and the main advantage for me is storage. I haven't shipped it but when I transport it I use a small trailer. I used to carry it on the roof but it became too burdensome to get it up there. Christopher G. Madden maddencg_at_earthlink.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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