Our local club had a calm water and rescue practice session today and it is criminal the way some manufacturers are not outfitting the boats they sell as "sea kayaks". There were numerous boats without any deck lines. It is extremely difficult to grab a boat in a rescue situation without them. Does it save that much money to not include them? Then prior to launching, we asked all attendees if they had both front and rear bulkheads or float bags installed if they did not. We then went and physically checked the boats. Unfortunately, two paddlers showed up late and missed our briefing and check. They were rather inexperienced paddlers and watched a demonstration of how to do an "Assisted T Re-entry". Unfortunately, one of these paddlers did not have a front bulkhead or any float bags installed in his boat that was not equipped with deck lines. These two paddlers received OJT in how to handle a "Cleopatra's Needle". They were just lucky that they didn't lose the boat. Am I the one who is nuts here or what? Nobody wants mandatory regulation, but in my opinion, it is downright criminal to sell kayaks that are not properly equipped for use. It's sort of like selling a car without seat belts, sure you can drive it, but are you safe? Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hej Steve I surely do understand your concern. But not all boats are seakayaks, recreational kayaks have their own right of existence. The dealer has the obligation to inform the customar about the use of the kayak. The problem here: many dealers know nothing about kajaks ! Now there's an issue! Lenze www.havkajakcenter.dk <Am I the one who is nuts here or what? Nobody wants mandatory regulation, but in my opinion, it is downright criminal to sell kayaks that are not properly equipped for use. It's sort of like selling a car without seat belts, sure you can drive it, but are you safe?> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You are right Steve, it is not only dealers, but also manufacturers that do not have a clue. The marked booming as it is, every body is building and selling sea boats. Many manufacturers have been building WW boats and have never got the idea about sea boats. The German Seakayak organisations magazine had a very good article about kayak outfitting=toggles and declines. (sorry it is not online) British, being a lot better then American/Canadian. Have a look at toggles, or as they say on the American continent: carrying handles. These were primarily designed to hang on to the boat while in the water, hence the should be mounted on the very end of the kayak in a way that allows the kayak to turn and twist without hurting fingers, hand or arm. Compare that with the many boats that have them fitted on top of the foredeck! It would be really fine if Seakayaker could print a translation of the article. If any native English speaker would like to do the translation I would be more than happy to sent the article. Or maybe that is a job for you Peter Unold? Lenze <I agree with what you are saying about rec (or is that wreck) boats. But the manufacturer of two of the boats today, says this about one of his models. If you want to go fast in the ocean with confidence this is the boat for you. This boat is a joy to paddle. The models that were at our practice session, are advertised as good for paddling around the marina or for a coastal paddle. This particular manufacturer produces kayaks and paddles that he sells direct to the paddler. There is no outfitter involved. He also sold one of the paddlers, an extremely tight neoprene skirt. While trying to do a wet exit, the paddler couldn't even remove it. I wound up demonstrating how to do a "Hand of God" rescue to keep the paddler from drowning. Again, a beginning paddler, should probably use a looser skirt until they get some basic skills. One of the other boats was a popular plastic boat that is used by many people here for playing in rock gardens. That one had no front bulkhead or floatation. Beginning kayakers don't know they need float bags and if the outfitter doesn't tell them, they're not bought. If it was included as part of the boat, everybody would be better off. Just my 2 cents, Steve> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> But not all boats are seakayaks, recreational kayaks have their own right of > existence. The dealer has the obligation to inform the customar about the > use of the kayak. The problem here: many dealers know nothing about kajaks ! I hope dealers know about bulkheads :-). When a recreational kayak has at least one bulkhead, it is always said in its specs. But when it doesn't have any, manufacturer's opinion seems to be that there is nothing to say, so they don't :-). I don't really get a recreational kayaks' right of existence even within some limited range of conditions - they have to be wooden to be unsinkable or or incredibly wide to be uncapsizable even on flat water, due to some unpredictable acts of a paddler. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
_____ Lenze, I agree with what you are saying about rec (or is that wreck) boats. But the manufacturer of two of the boats today, says this about one of his models. If you want to go fast in the ocean with confidence this is the boat for you. This boat is a joy to paddle. The models that were at our practice session, are advertised as good for paddling around the marina or for a coastal paddle. This particular manufacturer produces kayaks and paddles that he sells direct to the paddler. There is no outfitter involved. He also sold one of the paddlers, an extremely tight neoprene skirt. While trying to do a wet exit, the paddler couldn't even remove it. I wound up demonstrating how to do a "Hand of God" rescue to keep the paddler from drowning. Again, a beginning paddler, should probably use a looser skirt until they get some basic skills. One of the other boats was a popular plastic boat that is used by many people here for playing in rock gardens. That one had no front bulkhead or floatation. Beginning kayakers don't know they need float bags and if the outfitter doesn't tell them, they're not bought. If it was included as part of the boat, everybody would be better off. Just my 2 cents, Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Conventionally, a sprint racing kayak does not have bulkheads and does not have float bags; a wild water kayak does not have bulkheads but does have float bags, and a sea kayak has bulkheads and gear bags rather than float bags. As far as the tightness of skirts goes, new paddlers use easy to remove skirts, whereas experienced wild water paddlers use very tight skirts. Similarly, deck lines are the norm on sea kayaks, but are dangerous on wild water kayaks. Sprint racing kayaks are very fragile, wild water play kayaks are bomb proof, and sea kayaks range from solid to very sturdy depending on anticipated use. There are so many variations of kayaks that what might be best for one is no more than an embuggerance for others. I do not want a one-size fits all solution. Remember poor Sally Sponson. Knowledge and experience is what keeps us safe, including the knowledge and experience to know what sort of design and outfitting is appropriate for particular uses. Let's encourage manufacturers, retailers, and new paddlers to learn about product safety and safe paddling practices. Cheers, Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RICHARD CULPEPER said: > > Knowledge and experience is what keeps us safe, including the > knowledge and experience to know what sort of design and > outfitting is appropriate for particular uses. Let's > encourage manufacturers, retailers, and new paddlers to learn > about product safety and safe paddling practices. Richard, I couldn't agree with you more about your entire post. The boats in question were billed as "sea kayaks." My big gripe, is that the manufacturer of two of the boats without deck lines, prides himself on how much individual talking he does with each kayaker before selling them his wares (it is a small manufacturer who makes a solidly built boat). I don't think we should be legislating anything here, but I do think the manufacturer should on his own add deck lines and toggles to a boat sold as a sea kayak to beginning paddlers. There are no dealers involved with this company. The boat without a front bulkhead is a RM "sporty type" sea kayak from a major kayak manufacturer about 15 1/2 feet long that is popular with many of the rock gardeners here. It would be real easy for either the manufacturer (preferable) or the dealer to include a float bag with the sale. I don't think this would change the wholesale cost of the boat by more than about $10 and would certainly go along way towards reducing liability of a possible lawsuit. Can't you just hear an experienced outfitter being cross examined ---"Since you know what float bags are and have them in your store, can you explain why you didn't mention this important piece of safety equipment before my client's husband drowned--after all, he was just starting out in this sport and didn't know much about it.?" Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dear Friends Mogens Bidstrup from Oslo kajakklub (http://www.okk.org/mogens/) in Norway left Danmark last summer on his way to Instanbul. His plan was to winter in the UK. He sent me film after arriving in the UK and would send me an address in the UK so I could send him new film and pictures. I never heard from him afterwards and neither did his home club in Oslo If there is anybody out there who has heard from or about him please let me know Lenze www.havkajakcenter.dk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My favorite rock garden boat is my Prijon Yukon Expedition which does not have deck lines and has fixed handles at each end. The boat was designed for multi-day river expeditions which is an environment where you wouldn't want deck lines. I though about adding them, but decided against it. I would hate to be upside down and have a deck line get caught in a crack in the rocks. I think it is safer without them. Also, I have, and have seen others catch their paddle in the deck rigging while rolling. My touring boats all have deck lines and I think it's an asset, but not for rock gardening or any other potentially upside-down intensive environment. My view on what makes a valid kayak is slightly different: A kayak is a unique craft in that it is sealed and seaworthy. Waves can break over the deck without swamping the boat and even when capsized it can be righted without the paddler leaving the craft or even creating any danger. I have owned kayaks from 8 feet long to 18 feet long and they all share this special quality. The ability to stay safely in the boat during an upset is what differentiates a kayak from other craft, and is its main safety feature. In my opinion, a boat that doesn't meet this criterion may have a right to exist, but it is not a kayak. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- Richard, ....... I don't think we should be legislating anything here, but I do think the manufacturer should on his own add deck lines and toggles to a boat sold as a sea kayak to beginning paddlers.......... Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 21:19:18 -0700, "Steve Brown" <steve_at_brown-web.net> said: My view on what makes a valid kayak is slightly different: it can be righted without the paddler leaving the craft or even creating any danger. I have owned kayaks from 8 feet long to 18 feet long and they all share this special quality. The ability to stay safely in the boat during an upset is what differentiates a kayak from other craft, and is its main safety feature. In my opinion, a boat that doesn't meet this criterion may have a right to exist, but it is not a kayak. Steve, Thanks for saying that sprint kayaks have a right to exist, even if they are not kayaks. If I said that it is my opinion that people who devise rigid criteria have a right to exist but are not people, would that make it true? And, is it a coincidence that all of your boats just happen to meet your self-proclaimed criterion? Because, God forbid anyone should own something that is a faux kayak. The consequences would be too horrible to contemplate. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The "right to exist" comment was with reference to a previous paddlers comment on the Rec kayak's "right to exist" verses being legislated out of existence. To me the "right to exist" is not in question. People can paddle what they want and I want the government to butt out. Being called a kayak is a different matter. My opinion is that the use of a double bladed paddle doesn't make a boat a kayak. If your definition of a kayak is that it is whatever boat someone calls a kayak, that's up to you. I guess you can call a boat whatever you want to. If it doesn't meet my criteria I won't be agreeing with you. Steve Brown James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: .....Thanks for saying that sprint kayaks have a right to exist, even if they are not kayaks. If I said that it is my opinion that people who devise rigid criteria have a right to exist but are not people, would that make it true? ........... .Jim Tibensky Steve Brown *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think that saving a dollar on every kayak will enable some CEO of Prijon or Dagger to change his own kayak for an oceangoing yacht. On the bright side: I checked out one of those yachts a couple of weeks ago. I came across it (hardly could get around it) at a big exhibition. This motoryacht was the centerpiece of the show, about 20 meters long, equiped with double bedroom with bathrooms, leather couches, flying bridge and enough electronics to control an oilrig. It was sold as an "ocean crosser". I wasn't allowed on board, but could take a flyer. I noticed the fuel capacity was 2 tons, 2000 liters. It may look a lot, but it will take the ship about halfway the pacific, not much further... You see, there may still be hope for the little people. Go for it, big shots! Invite Bill Gates, while you're at it! On a more serious note: Selling only boats without any floatation, lines or whatever may have a possitive result: Anyone who wants to own a seakayak will be forced to learn how to ty a knot, to work with epoxy or plastic and to fix a skeg. When you've built it, you're probably able to fix it. Niels, who spent a full month changing a touring kayak to a seaworthy craft. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:17 AM 4/5/2004 +0200, Niels Blaauw wrote: >I think that saving a dollar on every kayak will enable some CEO of >Prijon or Dagger to change his own kayak for an oceangoing yacht. Really? I doubt that there enough Prijon or Dagger kayaks sold to purchase an ocean going yacht of the type you're describing. Anyone have any figures on how many kayaks are sold every year by the major vendors? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>Being called a kayak is a different matter. My opinion is that the use of a double bladed paddle doesn't make a boat a kayak. >>If your definition of a kayak is that it is whatever boat someone calls a kayak, that's up to you. I guess you can call a boat whatever you want to. If it doesn't meet my criteria I won't be agreeing with you. Interesting to note that several of the skinboat designs used by the Inuit do not fit into your criteria for a "kayak." Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Scott, I called Maligiaq on his cell phone to verify your comments and sure enough they are true, but there is more to the story. He was busy with rolling practice, but said he needed to work on his "phone roll" anyway. Here are some excerpts from our discussion..................... "My grandfather told me they never had any warranty claims, but neither did they have any return customers. The first time an ICY wave broke over the deck, the boat and paddler would go to the bottom of the sea. Since we Inuits never paddled alone, there were many witnesses to the poor safety record of these boats. These were unpopular models that pilled up in showrooms. Once kayak safety advocate Ralphiaq Nadligar identified serious safety deficiencies, dealers had to virtually give them away. Ultimately, tribal leaders set rigid safety standards and banned these boats from sale. Those still in service were typically given to wives for use in sheltered areas catching small fish. Many of us Inuits had multiple wives so the boats were usually given to the oldest or most annoying wife. There was still some loss of life, but husbands didn't seem to mind and the remaining wives were just glad that the boat (and the other wife) was gone. A woman's rights advocate got up-in-arms about the mounting death toll, but she was soon banished. Since she was the ONLY woman's rights advocate in Greenland, nothing was ever done. Eventually, the last wife dumb enough to actually paddle one of these engineering disasters disappeared. The remaining (smart) wives relegated them for use as home storage containers. Occasionally husbands would complain, but these remaining (smart) wives would remind their husbands of three facts which proved crucial to the development of modern Inuit culture: 1-I have a big sharp knife 2-These boats sink easily and can be used for coffins as well as storage 3-You may be bigger than me, but you have to go to sleep some time As one of our women put it: 'That was the end of that.' When visiting America recently I saw a similar boat in a kayak shop I visited. I think they called it a 'recreational kayak' and they had quit a few of them. It was made from different material, but the similarity was unmistakable. There was a couple there shopping and the wife smiled knowingly as she was encouraging her husband to buy one. They both seemed nice enough, but he didn't seem to be very smart. Anyway, I assume he was going to use it to keep his tools in. I was surprised you Americans were still using these for storage given their inefficient shape for stacking. "............................ Anyway, that's how the discussion might have gone if I had Maligiaq's phone number. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- ...... Interesting to note that several of the skinboat designs used by the Inuit do not fit into your criteria for a "kayak." Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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