two cents from a dedicated lurker. First cent: while very few sea kayakers will ever need to roll under combat conditions, knowing how to roll helps give a learning kayaker the confidence to learn the techniques necessary to not have to roll. Imagine trying to learn how to downhill ski if every time you fell you had to remove your boots and your parka and roll naked in the snow before getting up to try again. Now imagine trying to learn effective bracing in a kayak without knowing how to roll . . .. Second cent: you just might end up being one of those few kayakers whose roll saves them in combat conditions. --Karl Coplan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well if you are paddling solo and go over you have a few options: roll, re-entry and roll, paddlefloat entry; cowboy entry, swim, pray for someone to come by. I really do not know how someone could dismiss a roll as a real like self recovery technique. Perhaps this person has not read Chris Duff's Southern Exposure, his book on a solo navigation of New Zealand. He was knocked over a number of time in rough conditions and came up "smiling" each time. Had he not been able to roll in these conditions he could very well have been seriously injured or died. Keep learning to roll sid I've been reading too many forums and archives on the Net and have read several people dismissing the roll as a real life self recovery technique. I'm working on rolling - I can do it now just need to get reliable with it. So real life - packed for a day trip or a weekend - did you ever fall over, roll up and keep going? Cheers, je *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My only caveat would be that you should have the full set of tools in your pocket. Learn all of the different recovery techniques. The roll is a great one from the standpoint that it is quick and you stay in your boat ready to paddle. What I see as dangerous is the push to roll with new paddlers. They see people rolling, it looks cool and so therefore they invest tons of time trying to roll. They spend zero time learning the other methods of recovering from a capsize. In fact, some that are learning to roll have *never* practiced the other methods. Let's face it, there isn't anything 'cool' about scrambling on to your back deck with your rear end in the air and corkscrewing into your cockpit - they don't show this on the highlight films! For new paddlers, I think they should learn and get extremely competent on 2 or 3 self-recoveries and 2 or 3 assisted recoveries and then...grab the nose plug and start learning to roll. Anyone can gain the basic non-rolling skills quickly and easily. To get to the point where your roll is bombproof on both sides usually requires a great deal of time and practice. K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:24 AM 5/18/2004 -0400, SNStone_at_aol.com wrote: >Well if you are paddling solo and go over you have a few options: roll, >re-entry and roll, paddlefloat entry; cowboy entry, swim, pray for someone >to come >by. I really do not know how someone could dismiss a roll as a real like self >recovery technique. There really isn't any good reason for not learning how to roll, with the caveat that, one should not rely on being able to roll in lieu of learning other self-rescue skills. Someone asked a similar question to Nigel Dennis at the Atlantic Kayak Tours symposium a few years ago. The person asked him how often he's had to roll while out in "real" conditions. He answered that he pretty much never rolls unless he has intentionally capsized because his bracing skills are at a level where he doesn't completely capsize. Part of that is recognizing and avoiding conditions that would cause a complete capsize for someone with really good bracing skills. >Perhaps this person has not read Chris Duff's Southern Exposure, his book on >a solo navigation of New Zealand. He was knocked over a number of time in >rough conditions and came up "smiling" each time. Had he not been able to >roll in >these conditions he could very well have been seriously injured or died. It should also be mentioned that on his most recent expedition there was a time when one of his paddling partners was getting knocked over a number of times in rough conditions and eventually came out of his boat. Fortunately, we was paddling with someone that was proficient in assisted rescues, including towing, so he's still smiling today. The ironic thing is that a few month earlier this person was assessing my roll in a BCU assessment and gave me a pass even though I missed a roll. It was at the end of a long grueling day, and I was having a difficult time capsizing into the wind (conditions had gone beyond the 3 star testing level), and a bit of air in my drysuit didn't make it any easier. He said, "don't wear yourself out, I've seen you roll lots of times". *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John F. wrote: "Someone asked a similar question to Nigel Dennis at the Atlantic Kayak Tours symposium a few years ago. The person asked him how often he's had to roll while out in "real" conditions. He answered that he pretty much never rolls unless he has intentionally capsized because his bracing skills are at a level where he doesn't completely capsize. Part of that is recognizing and avoiding conditions that would cause a complete capsize for someone with really good bracing skills." -------------------------- This reminds me of John Dowd's line to the effect that being able to roll is a sign of success, while having to roll is a sign of failure. Tom ---------------------------------------- The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. ======================================== *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One thing I would add is that once you become comfortable practice rolling without setting up. Just go over. You need to try to simulate real life conditions. sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:43 PM 5/18/2004 -0400, SNStone_at_aol.com wrote: >One thing I would add is that once you become comfortable practice rolling >without setting up. Just go over. You need to try to simulate real life >conditions. Something else to try... To practice rolling in simulated real life conditions, rolling without setting up (paddling backwards and capsizing is a good one to try) is a good idea but it's also a good idea to do something other than sit there are you've rolled up. Try rolling and then take several hard forward strokes after you're up. Try rolling then doing a deep high brace on the other side (or same side) after your up. Try rolling up and paddling hard in reverse after you're up. Presumably, in real life conditions something has knocked you over and likely the first thing you're going to after rolling up is get away from whatever knocked you over in the first place. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Josh wrote: >>>>>>(paddling 4 times a week off the Israeli Mediterranean coast. Forward stroke now up there with the best of them, for those of you who remember my frustration...)<<<<<<< Yes Josh, I remember your frustration and it is great to hear your doing far better now. I would love to hear what you had not been doing (or were doing wrong) that created the frustration and what were the things you tried that seemed to work the most in improving your forward stroke. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Good to hear from you Matt! For the benefit of the others, I'll recap a bit. I've been paddling for four years now, and for most that time was paddling 2 times a week, year `round. I had sought the counsel of this list a few times, because I was frustrated with my lack of speed. I can combat roll, surf, am super-confident, very stable in rough water, etc., but I was always at the end of the pack. Admittedly, our kayaking group is comprised of some formidable paddlers, very strong guys who are super fast (I believe they are of an international standard, but that is yet to be tested). But I was still at the back, and thought that I should at least be in the middle of the pack. What was even more frustrating was that the new paddlers, as soon as they got confident and good, were soon passing me! Of course, one also wants to enjoy the paddle, but we paddle the same area so often, about a 11 km. round trip, that it is often about speed (or surfing when the surfing is up). A lot of our guys use this instead of the gym. It is their main conditioning. On this forum I had a lot of suggestions, from weight training to just forgetting about it. But now that my forward stroke has improved, I feel so much better, and I wanted to share what happened. PREFACE: The forward stroke is an incredibly complex series of movements. Just think about it. Torso rotation, pull, push, etc. There is, I believe now, an "ideal" form, and that is the form used by racers, basically what Brent Reitz and Gary Barton teach (I know that there is disagreement on this). A good animated .gif of this form is at http://www.pogies.com/speedstroke/html/images/animslow.gif . But as we paddle, I found that one has to modify this somewhat, and find the "right" stroke for the individual. 1. MORE PADDLING. I decided to increase my paddling to four times a week. Without a doubt this improved my ability. As prosaic as it sounds, the more you paddle, the faster you will be able to go. 2. TORSO ROTATION. I was actually turning my shoulders more than my torso. You need to feel it in your abdomen, kind of like doing a sit-up, although not as strong. When you do it right, you know it, and it feels good! 3. LOWER HAND PADDLE ANGLE: While the catch is right next to the kayak, the paddle should travel away from the kayak at a 45 degree angle through the water. 4. TAKING THE PADDLE OUT OF THE WATER. When you hand reaches your hip (Brent Reitz's "chicken wing"). In order to try to get good rotation, I used to think I had to take it out of the water much further back than that. But if you draw it through the water at a 45 degree angle, you still get good rotation. 5. PUSH-PULL. True, in the beginning, we always teach that the top hand pushes and the lower hand only guides. That is good for teaching beginners, because it is less tiring. But I believe now that one should divide the force between about 70% pushing with the top hand and 30% pulling with the lower hand. This proportion may vary. 6. BRENT REITZ VIDEO. I highly recommend this. You might not do it EXACTLY as he does, but you will learn a lot. It is well worth the money. I have not seen the Gary Barton video. 7. PUSH YOURSELF. In order to increase speed, you need to put some oomph into it. I hate exercise, and this was the hardest thing for me. But after you do it for a few weeks, you will see the results, and then you will paddle faster with less effort. I guarantee it. 8. REALLY CONCENTRATE ON FORM. If you don't feel like pushing yourself one day, simply concentrate on aspects of your form. One day, forget about the catch and simply think about rotation; another day, concentrate on push-pull, etc. 9. SIT UP STRAIGHT. Or nearly straight, leaning, if you must, only a few degrees forward. The straighter you sit up, the better rotation you will get, and you will feel it in your abdomen. 10. GET A GOOD TEACHER. My forward stroke guru who really got me going well, constantly yelling at me and devoting time to me, is Saggi Nehushtan, co-owner of Terra Santa Kayaking Expeditions (see www.seakayak.co.il). These are one person's conclusions. Yours may differ. I've been silent on this forum for a good long while now, but I have learned so much from it and thank you all. (BTW, for what it's worth, I paddle an NDK Explorer and use a Lendal Kinetic Touring blade. But my exposure to different kayaks and paddles is quite limited because we have very little choice here in Israel.) Josh (Ra`anana, Israel) At 09:45 AM 5/19/2004, Matt Broze wrote: >Josh wrote: > >>>>>>(paddling 4 times a week off the Israeli Mediterranean coast. Forward >stroke now up there with the best of them, for those of you who remember my >frustration...)<<<<<<< > >Yes Josh, I remember your frustration and it is great to hear your doing far >better now. I would love to hear what you had not been doing (or were doing >wrong) that created the frustration and what were the things you tried that >seemed to work the most in improving your forward stroke. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd toss in my 2 cents here: one comment on Brent's "chicken wing" concept. Yes, the elbow on the upper arm should be elevated during the rotation, but those of us with touchy shoulders (and I stress this point with my students) need to make sure the elbow stays a touch below, or at least no higher than the wrist. If the elbow is elevated above the wrist, stress is placed on the rotator cuff. Brent stresses elbow above wrist for the idealized racer stroke. In my case, this causes instant painful feedback. Lowering the elbow to wrist level, or just a smidge below, eliminates that pain. I would consider that this is just a matter of my own particular shoulders (I was considering shoulder surgery at one point, having been diagnosed with bone spurs in my rotator cuffs, but eliminated the problem by really refining my rotation and arm position). But working with a broad range of students has shown that many people experience pain when the elbow is elevated above the wrist, no matter how good the rest of the mechanics are. Mitch ___________________________________ | | CoyoteCo Performance Sea Kayaking | Instruction & Video Production | www.CoyoteCo.Net | 360 896-2151 |___________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Joshua > Teitelbaum > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 2:45 AM > To: mkayaks_at_oz.net; Paddlewise > Subject: [Paddlewise] Improving the Forward Stroke [was: Real > life rolling] > > 4. TAKING THE PADDLE OUT OF THE WATER. When you hand > reaches your hip > (Brent Reitz's "chicken wing"). In order to try to get good > rotation, I > used to think I had to take it out of the water much further > back than > that. But if you draw it through the water at a 45 degree > angle, you still > get good rotation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Unless you wish to buy your physiotherapist a new car; NEVER raise the elbow above the wrist. Too many people teach "what worked for them" not realising that they may have developed muscles and other technique that deals with using the body the wrong way. The shoulder is the most mobile AND the most unstable joint on the body and must be protected. Ian -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell McKinnon Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Improving the Forward Stroke [was: Real life rolling] I'd toss in my 2 cents here: one comment on Brent's "chicken wing" concept. Yes, the elbow on the upper arm should be elevated during the rotation, but those of us with touchy shoulders (and I stress this point with my students) need to make sure the elbow stays a touch below, or at least no higher than the wrist. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Hi all (again again) I like the animation but I am sad that the paddler is in black because it is easy to miss two extremely important things; 1) he is ALL torso rotation - the top and bottom arms are relatively fixed during the actual in water (power) phase there is little or no extension of the top arm 2) the top hand is fixed in height during the power phase and is fixed relative to the shoulders (ie it rotates with the shoulders) By again Ian -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Teitelbaum Subject: [Paddlewise] Improving the Forward Stroke [was: Real life rolling] A good animated .gif of this form is at http://www.pogies.com/speedstroke/html/images/animslow.gif . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My roll never got very reliable. Exit & re-entry no fun where I paddle at 60+ N. Being old and slow I paddle alone. Found peace of mind with no-exit paddlefloat resque. Check www.paddlelfoats.com Regards clas_kayaker_at_fastmail.fm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gave an opinion yesterday. Suggested an URL - spelled it wrong. Try this: www.paddlefloats.com Regards clas_kayaker_at_fastmail.fm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Clas Hagelstam wrote: > > Gave an opinion yesterday. > Suggested an URL - spelled it wrong. > Try this: www.paddlefloats.com > Regards clas_kayaker_at_fastmail.fm That looks very similar to what I came up with on my own, but his is 'much' nicer. Yes, it is possible to paddle with the float on the end of the paddle so you can get into a better position before removing and restowing the float. A roll is better but the float is a useful backup. michael (more sailor than kayaker) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Clas Hagelstam wrote: >>>>>My roll never got very reliable. Exit & re-entry no fun where I paddle at 60+ N. Being old and slow I paddle alone. Found peace of mind with no-exit paddlefloat resque. Check www.paddlelfoats.com Regards clas_kayaker_at_fastmail.fm<<<<<< As most probably realized when the link didn't work, it should be www.paddlefloats.com I wrote feedback to the website before I realized this was Clas' website and I could of just responded here and keep it on Paddlewise. Here is what I wrote him: Why not skip the putting the float on the paddle step, I find it easier and quicker that way. Just grab the float, arch back against the back deck, hold the float out to one side with a straight arm and try to pull it down into the water at arms length, viola you are upright much quicker and easier. We call it the Float roll. See the Rescue Float Manual on our website for more details (and other variations including an alternate version of the no exit rescue where you can breath while installing the float on the paddle blade). We have found it takes about 1/4 cubic foot of buoyancy (about 16 pounds) to have enough float buoyancy for paddlers in the 200 pound range to not be able to sink the float using the float on a 220 cm paddle. Of course, with a little practice one can get away using a lot less buoyancy (but much like rolling it won't be as sure a rescue for the inexperienced unless there is enough buoyancy. Your flat float design should make an excellent aid to learning to Eskimo roll. I just cut a slot into a 18"X12"X2" or 12"x12"x3" block of Ethafoam to make a flat float (and taper the opening to make installation easier and the edges for a sleeker profile during the sweep stage) to act as a learning aid to Eskimo rolling. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Coplan, Karl" <KCoplan_at_law.pace.edu> > Second cent: you just might end up being one of those few kayakers whose > roll saves them in combat conditions. > > --Karl Coplan For the entire summer last year I really beat up a fellow paddler who was VERY keen to roll well. I pushed her over any chance I could. It was a love hate kind of thing. She persisted through this "training" and can now roll well under most real conditions. Her confidence grew as well. One day while out in an area of consistantly weird water off of Tybee Island GA (USA) she drifted much further out than she should have. She had separated herself from our surfing group by several hundred yards. For the most part all you could see was the flash of her orange paddle blade as she struggled to stay upright. Waves were a three directional melee consisting of 7 foot heavily breaking swells/waves/slopola. As we fought our way out to her she finally lost it and went over. I smiled with satisfaction as she patiently waited upside down for a calm spot and rolled up confidently. We joined up and went to the beach for a snack. I told her that if she had come out of the boat that she would have had to decide what one thing she would have wanted to keep. Her boat, her paddle or her life. There was no way we were going to get her back into her boat in those conditions. Absolutely no way. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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