On 12 Aug 2004 at 8:41, Shawn Baker wrote: > No, they're moving on and up, and creating fresh new designs. Michael Daly" <mikedaly_at_magma.ca> replied: >One could also argue that they are chasing the latest WW fads. River running has given way to sitting in one spot and playing. Those that love river running could argue that their aspect of the sport has been given short shrift by the industry. Has it really given way? Rather than shuttling for an hour and running for an hour, you can get 2-3-4 hours of river play for your single hour of shuttling. If those who love river running have been given short shrift, it's because they're not innovating. If there were advances in river running, there would be necessary and desired advances in river running kayaks. Since river running is still river running, the same old Pirouette will work. And if you're happy with the Pirouette, then you haven't been short-shrifted. I love the skills I've gained by learning to play on river features. I'm a long way from being particularly skilled, but it's honed my edging, helped bombproof my roll, and enhanced my river reading skills. I don't care to "park and play", but love to "run and play". The river running is still enjoyable, and the play is simply icing on the cake. Some ww playboats haven't gotten the staying power of others--the RPM, X, Kingpin, and Boogie will be classics, while everyone has forgotten the Redline, Z, ID, and 007. But continual advancements are being made. Skiing saw huge advancements with shaped skis, bicycling in suspension systems...why should we be satisfied with the status-quo in sea kayaks? Different purchasing demographic? I'd settle for a lasting advancement in sea kayaking every 2-3 years...a decade still seems stale. Shawn New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Come on now, why would you want to paddle a Pirouette (no offense Bob McD)when you could paddle a Wave Sport Diesel or Pyranha I-3. Innovations in basic river running vessels are found in many new school boats and having a flat, planning hull can make the ride quite fun. Not to mention easier to learn in, more stable and predictable. I just got back from the Outdoor Retailer show for summer '05 and let me tell you there are some innovations in boat designs waaaayyyyy beyond the ol' school. steve Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45: 36.285' 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122: 39.841' Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Come on now, why would you want to paddle a Pirouette (no offense Bob McD)when you could paddle a Wave Sport Diesel or Pyranha I-3. Innovations in basic river running vessels are found in many new school boats and having a flat, planning hull can make the ride quite fun. Not to mention easier to learn in, more stable and predictable. My answer is that a Pirouettte is faster and less stable. I really like mine for that, but my Sabre, antique that it is, is even less stable which equals more responsive. And the longer boats get sky-high enders. And besides, I can't fit my foot, which has a permanent right angle bend at the ankle, into most modern playboats. So old boats for an old boater are ok in this instance. I'll be spending three weeks on the Colorado in the Grand Canyon a month from now in my lovely purple Pirouette. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Some happy Sabre pics from back in the day: http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/DoubleDrop.html On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:26:22 -0700 "James" <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: > > My answer is that a Pirouettte is faster and less stable. I really like > mine for that, but my Sabre, antique that it is, is even less stable > which equals more responsive. And the longer boats get sky-high enders. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 03:07:31PM -0700, Shawn Baker wrote: > I love the skills I've gained by learning to play on river features. > I'm a long way from being particularly skilled, but it's honed my > edging, helped bombproof my roll, and enhanced my river reading skills. > I don't care to "park and play", but love to "run and play". The > river running is still enjoyable, and the play is simply icing on the cake. All of which is fine, but not everyone seems to grasp that park-n-play (especially in a benign spot chosen for that reason, or in an artificial one built that way) is not the same as river running, is not the same as river running in isolated/wilderness situations. I can't tell you how many paddlers I've come across in the last 5-6 years who can do more tricks in holes than I've had hot dinners -- but who lack basic river-running skills, like the ability to hit an eddy where they need to, or a consistent, powerful forward stroke. This isn't a big deal *unless* they put themselves in situations where those skills become important; which some of them have done, with mixed results. (Watching someone who can't reliably make eddies in class III attempt the Lower New is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Sure, they look great surfing the wave-hole in The Warm-Ups, but then they get their ass kicked by Lower Keeney.) Maybe this is my old-school mentality (which is far from !EXTREME!) showing, but I've always agreed with authors/instructors who advocated progressive training: learning to do hard moves on easy water, gradually learning to execute them with precision on harder water, etc. It seems to me that *in some cases*, some people are confusing the ability to do tricks -- assisted by boats designed to make doing so easy -- with the ability to make a precision S-turn across a postage-stamp eddy in the middle of a Class IV drop. There's another side to this as well: I've always considered paddlers, along with fishermen and others who use streams, as de facto stewards of those waterways. We use them: it's therefore our responsibility, in part, to care for them and defend them. One thing I've noticed is that the decrease in river-running (in favor of park-n-play) is leading to a corresponding decrease in paddler concern for rivers. Oh, not that I think this is necessarily unfair: after all, people who spend most of their paddling time in one spot can't reasonably be expected to demonstrate concern for many others. But it does concern me and I worry that it's leading toward a mindset that suggests we should alter -- or even build -- rivers for our convenience. If that attitude becomes prevalent, who will paddle, and who will care for, the remote and seldom-run streams which abound in places like West Virginia? Who will make the long drive, and the long shuttle, and the long flatwater paddle to the take-out, for the privilege of running a few rapids -- when they have one in their backyard that runs from 8 AM to 5 PM every weekend? ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:45:21 -0400, Rich Kulawiec said: park-n-play (especially in a benign spot chosen for that reason, or in an artificial one built that way) is not the same as river running, is not the same as river running in isolated/wilderness situations. I can't tell you how many paddlers I've come across in the last 5-6 years who can do more tricks in holes than I've had hot dinners -- but who lack basic river-running skills, like the ability to hit an eddy where they need to, or a consistent, powerful forward stroke. Maybe this is my old-school mentality (which is far from !EXTREME!)showing, but I've always agreed with authors/instructors who advocated progressive training: learning to do hard moves on easy water, gradually learning to execute them with precision on harder water, etc. Me: I've seen this as well. I coached a kid last winter who had hopes of making the junior slalom team. He is amazing in holes and waves but I could beat him in gates and I'm 39 years older than he is. And the park and play set of my club are mostly miserable river runners. But a shining few are terrific no matter what they are doing, whether expedition or play paddling. I think the good ones still use the progession you mention and it shows in the smooth, clean strokes they use even in the big stuff. Old, crusty paddlers like old, crusty people generally, see the world going wrong but I think maybe it's just a factor of age. My opinion as an older guy. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/19/2004 11:56:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rsk_at_rockandwater.net writes: > If that attitude becomes prevalent, who will paddle, and who will > care for, the remote and seldom-run streams which abound in places > like West Virginia? Who will make the long drive, and the long > shuttle, and the long flatwater paddle to the take-out, for the > privilege of running a few rapids -- when they have one in their > backyard that runs from 8 AM to 5 PM every weekend? > I don't know where you live (sounds like W V?) but there is an awful lot of desire to run rivers here in WA state. We had a dry spring and poor snow pack this year so my WW was limited, but I see a some concern for the rivers, themselves and river running, in general. It's rarely what you want it to be, but it is ok for the most part. In general, I see a lot of park n play and can understand your observation. No, I don't fit into those little decked snow saucers either, but there are some really great RR designs, such as the Hoss, Diesel, Kingpins, etc. By the way, I think Steve S made a mention of these boats, and as it is a mutation of the hull design rip off thread I thought I'd like to ask: Do those kayaks (the Hoss and the Diesel) look similar, or what? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 02:17:52PM -0400, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > I don't know where you live (sounds like W V?) but there is an awful lot of Maryland -- but WV is where I started doing whitewater, and it's where my favorite river is (the Meadow, a tributary of the Gauley) [1]. > desire to run rivers here in WA state. We had a dry spring and poor snow pack > this year so my WW was limited, but I see a some concern for the rivers, > themselves and river running, in general. It's rarely what you want it to be, but it > is ok for the most part. I'm pretty much in agreement with this: I'm just concerned, that's all. I think of all people who pioneered these river runs (whether in Appalachia or in the Cascades), of all the hard-won advances in technique and equipment, of all the people who have worked so hard to make sure that all those streams are available/accessible to all of us...and sometimes I wonder if we're failing to capitalize on all that hard work. Maybe I have an overactive sense of history... Or maybe I'm just getting old. ;-) ---Rsk [1] NOT the Lower Meadow, which is a legit class VI hair run so hideous that the Upper Gauley (which must be run to get to the take-out) is the easy part. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/24/2004 6:15:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rsk_at_rockandwater.net writes: > I'm pretty much in agreement with this: I'm just concerned, that's > all. I think of all people who pioneered these river runs (whether in > Appalachia or in the Cascades), of all the hard-won advances in technique > and equipment, of all the people who have worked so hard to make sure > that all those streams are available/accessible to all of us...and > sometimes I wonder if we're failing to capitalize on all that hard work. > Maybe I have an overactive sense of history... > There is a great book about big water pioneer Walt Blackadar called Never Turn Back. It details not only his struggles as a paddler, but those in the conservation/environmentalism movement. He was a very active force in the Frank Church-River of No Return Wilderness fight. I'm not the kind of guy who forgets who helped save what and where from development. It wasn't THAT long ago that the Grand Canyon was slated to be a big bathtub. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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