"WhiteRabbit" <whiterabbit_0117_at_charter.net> wrote: > Taking the devils advocate. All the legs do is anchor the lower body. > [snip] Not a chance. Next time you paddle hard, pay attention to how much pressure your feet exert against the pedals. If your feet push against the pedals, they are pushing the kayak forward. They are part of the power train from the paddle to the boat. Any forward-pushing force between your body and the boat is what drives the boat forward. In addition, if you pay attention to the pressure your tush exerts on the boat, you'll find some of it is against the forward part of your seat (in other words, it is not all directed downward). That also pushes the boat forward. Caveat: any backward-pushing force from your body to the boat negates some of the forward-pushing force. For example, if your lower back is simultaneously pushing hard against the seatback (or backband), that force drives the kayak rearward. Try to paddle without pressing hard against the setback. The only way the kayak can move forward is if something pushes it. That something is you. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have a friend, Doug, who came to kayaking from an outrigger racing background, who is perhaps one of the strongest paddlers I know. To watch his forward stroke is like reading poetry. He has never raced kayaks, but I remember one time he managed to keep along side Ed Gilliet during a very long sprint to the beach of a couple of miles, much to Ed's amazement. Doug has a tendency to wear holes through the hull of his boats with his heels. He is obviously doing something with his feet when he paddles. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've lost the links after changing computers, but there are lots of sites with short videos of Olympic sprint paddlers. They don't use PFD's or sprayskirts so it's easy to see their legs pumping with each stroke. They have rudders, but they are operated with a stick between the knees to allow pressure to the foot pegs. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Kruger" <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> > Correction in CAPS below. What moves the kayak forward is any force the > paddler exerts on the kayak in the forward direction. If pumping the legs > achieves that, then the paddler can (in principle) achieve more > acceleration and/or a higher max speed. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Maybe I missed this in the discussion, but I'll say it anyway becasue it bears repeating. Only four parts of the body usually anchor the body and the kayak: heels, balls of feet, butt and lower back, the latter depending on how the boat is outfitted. Sometimes I guess the hips, if padded in tightly, might be part of the power train, too. So, I think, to transmit the force from the body to the boat it pretty much has to travel through these channels. I knew a really good slalom racer who did not anchor his feet on anything, no toe or heel blocks, no foot braces. But he had a tight backband and a tiny cockpit, so I think he got his bracing there. But look at the fastest kayakers there are - the sprint boaters. You'll not find a good one without back and foot bracing. Stefan Kaplanek, if I'm remembering how to spell his name, was a 500 meter world champion in the 60s who often broke footbraces on his fast starts. And sometimes the seat ripped right off the hull. The guy had the fastest start I ever saw. [I think he could even beat a C-1!] There are always exceptional people who succeed outside the usual techniques, but I would never teach a class on the power forward stroke without emphasizing the marvelous things legs can do for power. And my legs are pretty puny. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When one pushes with ones leg, one straightens that leg. The straightening pushes that sides butt cheek further back than the other butt cheek. This rotates the lower trunk. The rotation of the lower trunk does two things: First, even if nothing else were done, it provides rotation necessary to propel the boat, in which the relatively weak arms are used to transmit the very strong rotational force created by the legs. Second, it helps trigger further rotation higher up the trunk, in which the relatively weak arms are used to transmit the very strong rotational force created by the mid-trunk and upper trunk/lat. Foot, leg, butt cheek, lower trunk, mid-trunk, upper trunk/lat, arm, hand. It starts with the toes, finishes with the fingers, and uses as many of the big leg, trunk and shoulder muscles as possible, building on each other, resulting in explosive force. Here are some video clips from Kayak Sport Canada. Pay particular attention to the legs and hips of Brunett: http://www.kayaksport.net/technique/movies.html Richard Culpeper OSCRA/CCA Sprint Racing Instructor http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
i took a class with a canadian olympic paddler a few years back - he said that the good paddlers indeed had callouses on their butt from the movement of the hips(powered by the legs) (i did not ask to see the proof of this statement). but i find that even a very modest movement translated into torso rotation has a perceptitble (though in my case modest) effect on my speed cheers, george ruta ***************************** "There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." Albert Einstein On Sep 7, 2004, at 9:09 AM, PaddleWise wrote: > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:23:03 -0500 > From: "WhiteRabbit" <whiterabbit_0117_at_charter.net> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Legs Are Everything was "Long-short; > euro-GP..." > > Taking the devils advocate. All the legs do is anchor the lower body. > > If your butt doesn't move relative to the foot pegs, then all the > legs are > doing is anchoring the body so the power developed by the large torso > muscles can be transferred into the paddle. You can drive your legs > into > the foot pegs all day and the boat won't move until you put the paddle > into > the water. You can also drive your legs for all you are worth and if > you > are arm paddling still not accomplish much. > > It is a wide wide world, but I have never seen or heard of a paddler > actually using their leg power to rotate their hips in the seat. Most > keep > their butt relatively still in the seat and rotate at the base and > lower > part of the spine. > > It is a useful visualization, and for many causes them to assume a > better > posture, and do a better stroke, but it isn't where the power is coming > from. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of James Sent: 07 September 2004 15:11 To: paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Legs Are Everything Jim wrote: >But look at the fastest kayakers there are - the sprint boaters. >You'll not find a good one without back and foot bracing. Sprint boats never have back bracing - in order to drive with your legs you need to be able to move glutes and lower back around in the seat. Foot bracing is ideally just a bulkhead with a slot in it for the tiller bar - typical touring kayak foot pegs (even the ones which aren't attached to rudder controls) flex too much. The gees site has clear pictures of sprint boat seats/outfitting http://www.gees-england.co.uk/index.html FWIW I prefer also to have a very loose fit in my sea kayaks, so that I can move about during the stroke, with a knee tube providing control of the boat for rolling etc. This doesn't work with keyhole cockpits. Here is a fine video of a paddler with good form on an ergo, no boat so its very easy to see the stroke mechanics, and get a good idea of the considerable power which can be generated by the legs. http://www.pogies.com/speedstroke/speedstroke_movie.htm Cheers Colin Colin Calder www.kayakscotland.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:32:18 +0100 "Colin Calder" <colin.calder_at_abdn.ac.uk> wrote: > > Sprint boats never have back bracing - in order to drive with your legs you > need to be able to move glutes and lower back around in the seat. Foot > bracing is ideally just a bulkhead with a slot in it for the tiller bar Correct -- no back bracing in sprint boats (or hip or thigh bracing either). A slight quibble with the foot board, though. So that both legs can assist (although one only drives with one leg at one time), the foot board is designed to permit one to use one's feet to brace. New foot boards have a lip at the top that curves back, under which one places one's toes/tops of one's feet. As one foot pushes hard against the footboard, the other foot resists being pushed away by bracing against the curved top of the foot board. In older boats, this was done by way of a strap across the foot board into which one insered one's feet. Cheers, Richard Culpeper CCA/OCSRA Sprint Racing Instructor *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Colin said: Sprint boats never have back bracing - in order to drive with your legs you need to be able to move glutes and lower back around in the seat. I am corrected. When I raced sprint boats there were no back braces as such. But some of the seats had a very high back behind the scoop. This acted to keep the butt in the seat but allowed movement. I noticed that some boats did not have this feature. If memory serves, after more than thirty years it probably doesn't, the pushing leg would lift my rear a little and gravity would bring it back, following the contour of the high seat back. This back wasn't more than a couple of inches higher than the left and right edges of the seat. So it wasn't even close to a back brace but had the effect of holding the body in place. The boats I raced were wood, made in Denmark. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Struer possibly? http://www.struerkajak.com/ On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:47:42 -0700 "James" <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: > > The boats I raced were wood, made in Denmark. > Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7 Sep 2004 at 0:33, Dave Kruger wrote: > Caveat: any backward-pushing force from your body to the boat negates > some of the forward-pushing force. For example, if your lower back is > simultaneously pushing hard against the seatback (or backband), that > force drives the kayak rearward. This isn't quite true. If you push your feet hard against the footpegs and your back against the backband, all you're doing is stretching the kayak (infinitesimally, but it can be measured with a strain guage). It would be impossible to move the kayak backwards this way. It does waste muscle energy and can contribute to fatigue if you keep it up. The key with pushing on the footpegs is to make sure that the resulting force causes your body to move relative to the kayak. If it isn't moving, then no work is being done (in physics, work = force times distance moved). You can expend a lot of muscle power, and tire yourself out if all you do is push with your feet and cause no motion. The forward motion of the kayak is influenced by the total of all the forces transmitted between your body and the kayak, That means all contact points as Jim pointed out. In my Ellesmere, the bucket seat prevent me from getting any effective motion in my butt - I can't slide around much. Hence, I only push on the footpegs enough to ensure that I am secure. If I'm paddling normally, that means virtually no pressure on the footpegs at all. Only if I'm paddling hard does the foot pressure get noticable and that's only to secure my body. Any muscle action above that would be wasted. The moral of the story is that if you want to use foot pressure to increase your paddling speed, you have to have a seat that allows your butt to slide, just like the K1 racers. If not, you're just tiring yourself for nothing. I haven't met very many instructors that understand this, hence they teach pushing on the footpegs regardless. Mike PS - The most of the foot pressure I exhert is when rolling. I've popped off the footpegs this way and eventually replaced the plastic footpegs with aluminum. Boreal Designs no longer uses plastic footpegs in this kayak, so I guess I wasn't the only one. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote: >In my Ellesmere, the bucket seat prevent me from getting any >effective motion in my butt - I can't slide around much. Hence, I >only push on the footpegs enough to ensure that I am secure. If I'm >paddling normally, that means virtually no pressure on the footpegs >at all. Only if I'm paddling hard does the foot pressure get >noticable and that's only to secure my body. Any muscle action above >that would be wasted. > >The moral of the story is that if you want to use foot pressure to >increase your paddling speed, you have to have a seat that allows >your butt to slide, just like the K1 racers. If not, you're just >tiring yourself for nothing. I haven't met very many instructors >that understand this, hence they teach pushing on the footpegs >regardless. Well, I think there are shades of gray here that shouldn't be ignored. At the hips, it's the rotation of the skelleton not the skin of your cheeks that counts. Yes, if you want to rotate your pelvis beyond that which your skin/wet suit allows a mechanical device to permit the hips to rotate will help. But (butt?) some motion is better than no motion, so don't think that you have to have a swivel or sliding seat to bring you legs into play - at least to some useful degree. Cheers, Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7 Sep 2004 at 12:56, Carey Parks wrote: > Well, I think there are shades of gray here that shouldn't be ignored. > At the hips, it's the rotation of the skelleton not the skin of your > cheeks that counts. Yes, if you want to rotate your pelvis beyond that > which your skin/wet suit allows a mechanical device to permit the hips > to rotate will help. But (butt?) some motion is better than no motion, > so don't think that you have to have a swivel or sliding seat to bring > you legs into play - at least to some useful degree. In many kayaks, that's true. Lots have such flat seats that you can get some motion. But if you're moving only a little bit, that little bit times the force in the leg amounts to a little bit of work. You have to decide for yourself whether this meaningfully adds to the forward motion of the kayak. This in turn has to be balanced against the amount of effort that you expend to generate the extra work. It makes sense in racing, where a kilometer race can be won by a few centimeters. For most touring kayakers, it's likely a waste of time and energy. It's truly a case of YMMV. :-) Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Michael Daly" <mikedaly_at_magma.ca> wrote: > On 7 Sep 2004 at 0:33, Dave Kruger wrote: >> Caveat: any backward-pushing force from your body to the boat negates >> some of the forward-pushing force. For example, if your lower back is >> simultaneously pushing hard against the seatback (or backband), that >> force drives the kayak rearward. > This isn't quite true. If you push your feet hard against the > footpegs and your back against the backband, all you're doing is > stretching the kayak (infinitesimally, but it can be measured with a > strain guage). It would be impossible to move the kayak backwards > this way. It does waste muscle energy and can contribute to fatigue > if you keep it up. Ah, I think we have a semantic difference here, Michael. No quarrel with your analysis, except: 1. You can do work on the kayak by pressing on the foot pedals, because as you pump against them (during stroking), the force exerted times the distance the kayak (pedal) moves during that exertion _relative to the paddler_ would constitute work done by the paddler system on the kayak system. 2. Righto re: stretching the kayak comment above. I should have tightened that up and noted that it is the NET force your body exerts on the kayak that accelerates it: meaning, any counterforce against the backband is countered (in turn) by some of the forward-directed force on pedals, hull, etc. In short, the isometric extension your body accomplishes when pressing both surfaces will only make you more tired ... and does not accelerate the kayak. Only the NET force does that. I think we are in agreement, just using different words. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7 Sep 2004 at 11:36, Dave Kruger wrote: > 1. You can do work on the kayak by pressing on the foot pedals, > because as you pump against them (during stroking), the force exerted > times the distance the kayak (pedal) moves during that exertion > _relative to the paddler_ would constitute work done by the paddler > system on the kayak system. Which should be the same as the distance the whole kayak moves relative to the paddler. In other words, if your butt is moving, you are doing work. We're in agreement, but using different views. > 2. Righto re: stretching the kayak comment above. I should have > tightened that up and noted that it is the NET force your body exerts > on the kayak that accelerates it This wording would not have elicited a comment from me. In fact, I should have clarified by noting that if your original comment was not quite right, the part that was right was that your above explanation is implied. Pushing against the backband is just a waste of glycogen. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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