>I'm all for innovation in kayak designs. Regardless of your aesthetic >preferences, the kayak does appear to be innovative. This says >nothing about whether the idea is worth a damn, but it is good to see >someone taking a sharp turn in a unusual direction. While there is >little that is truly new in boat design, a radical failure is a lot >more fun than another mediocre copy. I wish the guy luck and hope he >or we learn something useful from his efforts. Nick's right. Even the Edsel was innovative. Gordin Warner Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Gordin, On Wednesday, May 04, 2005, at 4:52:58 PM PST, you wrote: First, Nick wrote: >>I'm all for innovation in kayak designs. Regardless of your >>aesthetic preferences, the kayak does appear to be innovative. This >>says nothing about whether the idea is worth a damn, but it is good >>to see someone taking a sharp turn in a unusual direction. [snip] > Nick's right. > Even the Edsel was innovative. I can appreciate the sentiments both of you expressed, but at the same time, I wonder just how far innovation in "kayak" design has to go before the boat becomes another creature altogether? Perhaps it's my ever growing appreciation for the more traditional kayak designs that influences my feelings about this, but I'm wondering if I can even bring myself to call this "Evolution kayak" design a "qajariaq" ("like a qajaq"). Sure, it's definitely a "boat", and a kayak paddle is used with it, but for that matter, so is Duane's lovely and innovative "Square Deal kayak"! :-) -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Since I have yet to find a definition of kayak that really works, you are welcome to try to come up with a definition which excludes the Evolution. But, that is just semantics and really not all that important. Attempts to protect the purity of traditions lead to foolish distinctions and petty discrimination. It paddles like a kayak, the guy that made it wants to call it a kayak, so why not. You are under no compulsion to like his idea, but to dismiss it as not a kayak won't prove much. On May 7, 2005, at 2:32 PM, Melissa Reese wrote: >>> I'm all for innovation in kayak designs. Regardless of your >>> aesthetic preferences, the kayak does appear to be innovative. This >>> says nothing about whether the idea is worth a damn, but it is good >>> to see someone taking a sharp turn in a unusual direction. [snip] >>> >> Even the Edsel was innovative. >> > > I can appreciate the sentiments both of you expressed, but at the same > time, I wonder just how far innovation in "kayak" design has to go > before the boat becomes another creature altogether? > > Perhaps it's my ever growing appreciation for the more traditional > kayak designs that influences my feelings about this, but I'm > wondering if I can even bring myself to call this "Evolution kayak" > design a "qajariaq" ("like a qajaq"). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with you Nick, and as far as I am concerned to each his own. And they can smoke them if they have them. I just don't particularly care for the looks of the Evolution. It gives in to the whole "theme park America" thing a little to much for my taste. And if I want to see gondolas I am not going to Vegas either. Not that I don't care for the boat tail roadster look. I just as soon have it on a boat tail roadster and not a kayak that tries to look like a boat tail roadster. I am pure-bred-certifiable-Walmart-America-PWT, but that kayak is just a bit to tacky for me. I find your rendition of emulating a classic look far more tasteful. And I don't care for Velveta cheese either. :-) Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Schade" <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Fwd: Re: Evolution Kayaks > Since I have yet to find a definition of kayak that really works, you > are welcome to try to come up with a definition which excludes the > Evolution. But, that is just semantics and really not all that > important. Attempts to protect the purity of traditions lead to > foolish distinctions and petty discrimination. It paddles like a > kayak, the guy that made it wants to call it a kayak, so why not. You > are under no compulsion to like his idea, but to dismiss it as not a > kayak won't prove much. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In any case we are looking at appearance/form rather than function since nobody seems to be able to provide meaningful data on performance. According to Frank Lloyd Wright, "form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union." If he is (w)right, pun intended, the consensus response to this thing should predict very poor performance indeed! As in most things there is little that is new in boat design. Thousands of years have been given to the evolution of boat and ship designs of all types and in the process just about everything has been tried. Some fairly reliable generalizations about what makes a boat perform well have been arrived at. Our ideas of beauty, (form), in boats has been developed in concert with the evolution of design for performance, (function). It is not at all unlikely therefore that, if we agree it is ugly, we should expect it to perform poorly. Michael in Tallahassee *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Frank Lloyd may have been a mystic architect, but that did not make him right about form and function being a spiritual issue. Form follows function, so you have to still determine function. The bulbous design reminds me of the reed boats of Lake Titicaca (sp?) or the Indian Ocean. The high volume design was seaworthy as proved by Thor Hyerdahl. This design is that of a barge or freighter, where the large load forward is balanced by the CE being moved way aft. I think I got this part right? Totally consistent with standard ship and load design, though I agree a bit strange for eyes accustomed to seeing Kayaks of the Aleutian or Greenland variety. This reminds me of Captain Cook when he first saw South Pacific islanders in their prows. He did not understand the function, so he was surprised when they out sailed His Majesty's ship. Now whether the function of the Evolution is as a creek boat, or long haul expeditionary kayak is to be determined! I would also suspect that the design has some interesting handling characteristics in following seas, and may not be as inclined to broach. The high profile makes me wonder though about handling in a wind. It would seem to have a significant lee helm, which may be undesirable, but would have to be proven in sea trials. I am not so concerned about mystical artistry as I am engineering and function. Settle that and I will be glad to let someone else paint the boat whatever color kayaks are supposed to be painted. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Lampman Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Evolution Kayaks In any case we are looking at appearance/form rather than function since nobody seems to be able to provide meaningful data on performance. According to Frank Lloyd Wright, "form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union." If he is (w)right, pun intended, the consensus response to this thing should predict very poor performance indeed! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"tnksng" <tnksng_at_qwest.net> wrote: > I would also suspect that the design has some interesting handling > characteristics in following seas, and may not be as inclined to broach. > The > high profile makes me wonder though about handling in a wind. It would seem > to have a significant lee helm, which may be undesirable, but would have to > be proven in sea trials. Has anyone here seen what this boat looks like below the waterline? Seems like that should be at least as important as what we see above the waterline. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> As in most things there is little that is new in boat design. > Thousands of years have been given to the evolution of boat and ship > designs of all types and in the process just about everything has been > tried. Some fairly reliable generalizations about what makes a boat > perform well have been arrived at. The craft historically called the kayak has been limited by materials to certain shapes. Fiberglass or molded plastics do not have these restrictions. It is thus quite possible that there are superior designs for various niches of "kayaking" out there. Witness the evolution of the river kayak. I think that there are likely designs out there that are superior to those that the Intuits evolved. Particularly for purposes and environments that these people had no contact with. ______ "Thousands of years have been given to the evolution of boat and ship designs of all types" But interestingly, the Europeans or Chinese never came up with a craft much like the kayak despite all those thousands of years. Lots of things go into evolution. One is the willingness to embrace new ideas. _______ I am eager to "try out" an Evolution. On the other hand, I think that aesthetics are a value that might be reasonably sought by the kayak owner. Especially since you spend so much time looking at the front of the boat. For different people different "strokes". But I think that the sea kayaking community is overly conservative with a huge family of designs varying little from one another and remarkably little exploration of new ideas. But many "new" ideas have popped up just over the last few decades. Some are the surf kayak, the windsurfer, the short sea kayak, the Hobie propulsion system. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>As in most things there is little that is new in boat design. >Thousands of years have been given to the evolution of boat and ship >designs of all types and in the process just about everything has been >tried. >Michael in Tallahassee Hi all, Been off-line moving from Cincinnati to Cape Coral, FL (no, I've not paddled yet, not even rolled in the pool.) So if this has been mentioned, please forgive. Michael is correct, evolution will settle in around the optimal. But optimal is what it is given many other dimensions besides "performance", for example the technology available while the evolution is going on. The form the Inuit et al evolved over thousands of years was perfected within the constraints of what they could build. What if they had roto-molding and modern composite lay-up techniques as well as titanium to work with? Is it possible that the optimal they arrived at would lie in a different place? Perhaps so. That said, to someone wanting to make a business go, another dimension which holds rather important sway is will enough people buy it. To what degree do their expectations of "kayak" influence their willingness to heave one atop their car and show it off in traffic? Another more recent factor is the ability to share insights and evolve faster now that we have the internet and can search up other's designs and suppliers of materials and parts. I'd bet the evolution curve is getting pretty steep right about now. Oh, and don't forget - evolution requires the many permutations be tried to determine the ones that live and the ones that die. Maybe this latest design is one that will die, but will shine some light in some previously dark corner where some gems lie. Dream on Bill! Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Not sure this adds much to the discussion but as it relates to the market and evolution of design...For mass marketing this may be a great design. The masses aren't necessarily looking for cutting edge performance. Shops and big box stores sell a lot of the Old Town Loon-type boats. The Evolution may offer the masses things like ample cockpit space (appears to have really high volume ahead of the cockpit) and also things like big cargo hatches and lots of cargo capacity. For the folks who don't mind strapping an igloo cooler on the back deck, a monstrous cargo hatch may be a hot button. Many people in shops use boat color to help them determine which one to buy! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is a good point. It is important to remember the environment a kayak must operate in includes the market place. A boat can have features that appeal to the market place which may or may not have anything to do with how it responds to a head wind. The Evolution can be well adapted to a marketing environment regardless of it adaptation to the water. Saying things like: "... the groove (where you sit, the cockpit), just like on a ski (where the binding & boot are located), is parabolic, so the shape aids in turning." can appeal to the market place even though the words are essentially meaningless. Relating the kayak to something people are familiar with makes spurious logic appear insightful to otherwise ignorant customers. Parabolic skis turn easily, this kayak is parabolic, therefore it will turn easily, seems perfectly logical even if it is a bunch of marketing clap trap. To start with, this assumes the kayak is actually shaped like a ski, which it doesn't look like it is. But, it doesn't really matter, as long as it gets people to buy the boat, and as long as they are reasonably happy with how the boat turns, which they will be since the probably won't have spent time in many other kayaks, the ruse may work. On May 10, 2005, at 8:54 AM, Keith Wrage wrote: > Not sure this adds much to the discussion but as it relates to the > market and evolution of design...For mass marketing this may be a > great design. The masses aren't necessarily looking for cutting > edge performance. Shops and big box stores sell a lot of the Old > Town Loon-type boats. The Evolution may offer the masses things > like ample cockpit space (appears to have really high volume ahead > of the cockpit) and also things like big cargo hatches and lots of > cargo capacity. For the folks who don't mind strapping an igloo > cooler on the back deck, a monstrous cargo hatch may be a hot > button. Many people in shops use boat color to help them determine > which one to buy! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If I've missed the answers to this, please correct me. How much camera distortion is there for highly curved surface like this shown as a web picture? I mean one person on the list has actually seen it live so far. How is this shape going to affect paddle stroke, eg. w. inexperienced paddlers who might drag their hand too long? Nick's comments on marketing are very well taken, and the further evidence is very few skis have actually been parabolic since 2000, yet the term lingers because it's more fun to say than 'shaped'. PJ Gudac Bethesda, MD *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
comprex wrote: >If I've missed the answers to this, please correct me. > > How much camera distortion is there for highly curved surface like >this shown as a web picture? I mean one person on the list has >actually seen it live so far. > > > > > I saw this boat in Charleston, SC. The photo is accurate. It looks like a cross between a banana and a carnival bumper car. People seemed drawn to it. It was test paddled heavily by the crowds at the ECCKF. I didnt try it but it looked like fun. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Michael is correct, evolution will settle in around the optimal. But optimal > is what it is given many other dimensions besides "performance", for example > the technology available while the evolution is going on. The form the Inuit > et al evolved over thousands of years was perfected within the constraints > of what they could build. What if they had roto-molding and modern composite > lay-up techniques as well as titanium to work with? Is it possible that the > optimal they arrived at would lie in a different place? Perhaps so. Evolution usually does not settle in any one place. Evolution of animals has resulted in enormous diversity. There are MANY optimal points for thousand of niche situations. As for Inuit kayak design, it is easy to assume that the "popular" forms adopted by the Western world represented the "peak" of some evolutionary process. But, as best I can tell, there was more diversity of form of the kayak before it was adapted by Westerners than what I see now floating around in America where boats are quite similar. There is no best kayak design. The native American boats were quite diverse in form and function reflecting varying needs, experience, traditions and materials. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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