Thought I would share a few comments on this (which also touches on the "best vhf handheld" discussion that went on a few months ago) ... - Wanting to be vhf-maritime equipped and capable, I took a course last spring for canadian "Restricted Operator's Certificate (Maritime)" with the new "DSC endorsement". Hearing about the trend away from Channel 16 to DSC (Digital Selective Calling) for Distress calls, I naturally wanted to find out what "kayak friendly" DSC-equipped radios were available. - One option was the Uniden Mystic, which is a rather large handheld with built-in GPS. This beast was not acceptable to me, for a couple of reasons. For one, I already had a GPS which I liked better than that found in the mystic. - As a long-time ham radio operator I already owned a multi-featured VHF handheld (Yaesu VX-7R) capable of monitoring Maritime VHF. I discovered that this radio has a "twin sister", Standard Horizon HX471S - a submersible Maritime VHF handheld, DSC equipped - which could share all of the accessories of my VX-7R (Li-Ion battery packs, waterproof speaker mics, etc). So I quickly acquired one. - Now while the HX471S is DSC-equipped, there are a couple of issues. First, the connection to the GPS is via some spring contacts in the charging base provided with the radio. So when I'm holding the radio in my hand the GPS is not connected. As long as the radio is not turned off, it retains the last recorded GPS coordinates. So I could keep the radio in the docking/charging cradle connected to the GPS, and pull it out to use it, and the "close enough" GPS coordinates would be sent if I have to hit the DSC distress button. But the Charging cradle is a bit bulky and I don't want to keep it on the deck of the kayak (or even in the kayak , for that matter). So I will try to rig something up so that I can connect a cable from my Garmin GPS directly to the small contacts at the base of the HX471S. - another issue with regard to DSC and Kayakers is the line-of-sight capability of the DSC (this ain't no EPIRB!). I was thinking I might install a fibreglass rod in the seldom-used rudder mount on my Feathercraft Big Kahuna, to mount an elevated VHF antenna. A couple of problems with this. First is the probability that, at the very time I need a strong signal to make a distress call, this "elevated" antenna might not be elevated anymore (ie following a capsize). Second problem is that the HX471S does not have a removable antenna (as the VX-7R does). So no way I can attach a feedline and elevated antenna to this handheld - which gets me to wondering ... is there some compact, self-inflating weather balloon that I could keep on my pfd? If so, I could attach the VHF hanheld to it, hit the DSC panic button, and raise the radio aloft (appropriately tethered of course!). One thing about DSC over Ch 16 voice mayday is that you don't have to be talking. - anyone else have musings along these lines??? John C in LondonOn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
VE3JC John wrote: > Hearing about the trend away from Channel 16 > to DSC (Digital Selective Calling) for Distress calls, I naturally > wanted to find out what "kayak friendly" DSC-equipped radios were > available. When I bought a VHF last year, I considered the same and decided that there are no practical solutions yet for the kayaker. If DSC becomes mandatory in the Great Lakes region in the future, I'll have to buy something then and, hopefully, a suitable handheld will be available then. > - One option was the Uniden Mystic, which is a rather large handheld > with built-in GPS. This beast was not acceptable to me, for a couple of > reasons. For one, I already had a GPS which I liked better than that > found in the mystic. I didn't like the Mystic for a number of reasons, but the internal GPS was not a significant one. I think that attaching an external GPS is a poor solution for a kayaker. If you want an accurate GPS position sent, you need the GPS connected all the time. Connecting two cellphone-sized gadgets in this manner makes for a bulky, awkward device even if no cradle was required. If you look at what is required for including an internal GPS (look up Garmin GPS15 for an example), it isn't that difficult for the radio manufacturer to add GPS location finding capability to a VHF. The extra circuitry is small and low power. The external functionality of the GPS doesn't have to be implemented, simplifying the interface. You can carry a separate GPS for that. I'd rather a VHF with GPS location capability and no GPS user interface than a VHF with a bulky two-function interface. > Second problem > is that the HX471S does not have a removable antenna (as the VX-7R > does). Another reason I prefer the slightly larger Icom units. > - which gets me to wondering ... is there some compact, self-inflating > weather balloon that I could keep on my pfd? I'd rather get a VHF with removable antenna and make a roll-up J-pole. BTW - line of site is not too restrictive in the Great Lakes. Many areas are monitored by CCG with elevated antennae, so the line of sight is rather long. In other areas, you just have to hope that someone with a DSC-enabled VHF is monitoring and can either assist or relay. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike, Can you tell us more about the roll up j pole idea? Also, on the wet coast here line of sight is not too much of a problem since the CG has repeaters fairly well spaced down the Vancouver Island coast. >I'd rather get a VHF with removable antenna and make a roll-up J-pole. > >BTW - line of site is not too restrictive in the Great Lakes. Many >areas are monitored by CCG with elevated antennae, so the line of >sight is rather long. In other areas, you just have to hope that >someone with a DSC-enabled VHF is monitoring and can either assist or relay. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike Jackson wrote: > Can you tell us more about the roll up j pole idea? You can determine the dimensions you need from an online calculator like: <http://www.hamuniverse.com/jpole.html> Just plug in the frequency you're interested in - I'd use something intermediate to ch 16 and 22. This will give you about 3 dB gain over the rubber ducky, IIRC. While the instructions might call for copper tubing, you can use a single strand of insulated wire bent into a J and held into shape by laying it onto some duct tape and covering it over with more duct tape. Another alternative is to make a twinlead version - google searches will find instruction. You'll also need a bit of coax to make a coil of about five turns to reduce interference and a coax connector that fits your VHF rubber ducky's connector. For tools you just need a wire cutter and soldering pencil. Altogether quite cheap - the coax connector is likely the most expensive part. The antenna can be rolled up for storage and stretched out for use. You'll have to hold up the end with a paddle or something. You can attach a loop of line or punch a hole in the duct tape for a line. I haven't made one for VHF, but I did make one for my stereo receiver for local FM stations and I no longer have reception problems compared to the cheapo twinlead antenna. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > Mike Jackson wrote: > >> Can you tell us more about the roll up j pole idea? > > You can determine the dimensions you need from an online calculator like: > <http://www.hamuniverse.com/jpole.html> > > Just plug in the frequency you're interested in - I'd use something > intermediate to ch 16 and 22. > > This will give you about 3 dB gain over the rubber ducky, IIRC. Which, if I recall correctly is equivalent to doubling the wattage produced by the radio. A long, long time ago I used to build CB radio antennas, one of which was a four element "quad" (basically four square loops of wire on spreaders and appropriate distance apart), which allegedly was suppose to produce a 16dB gain. > > While the instructions might call for copper tubing, you can use a > single strand of insulated wire bent into a J and held into shape by > laying it onto some duct tape and covering it over with more duct > tape. Another alternative is to make a twinlead version - google > searches will find instruction. You'll also need a bit of coax to > make a coil of about five turns to reduce interference and a coax > connector that fits your VHF rubber ducky's connector. For tools you > just need a wire cutter and soldering pencil. Altogether quite cheap > - the coax connector is likely the most expensive part. > > The antenna can be rolled up for storage and stretched out for use. > You'll have to hold up the end with a paddle or something. You can > attach a loop of line or punch a hole in the duct tape for a line. > > I haven't made one for VHF, but I did make one for my stereo receiver > for local FM stations and I no longer have reception problems compared > to the cheapo twinlead antenna. It's worth noting that the length of the antenna and coil "balun" are not as critical if you're only going to be receiving singles. If, however, you're going to be transmitting VHF, it can be very important and an SWR meter used to measure how well the antenna matches the radio. A ratio of over 3:1 can cause damage to the radio. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There's a new Jeep commercial that shows, what looks like a bug going into an ant hole, then a Jeep comes out with a couple of whitewater kayaks and a touring kayak on top (in the middle of a desert..go figure). Today I saw an advertisement in a magazine that showed a better top and side view of the kayaks. The touring kayak appeared to be a stitch-n-glue boat but I didn't recognize the design. It was a traditional western Greenland design that looked somewhat similar to a Northbay. Anyone know what it is? John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu Ithaca, NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the information and comments, Michael I agree that connecting the GPS and handheld vhf via cable is bulky and awkward, but I will probably experiment with it until something better for kayakers comes along. I saw an article somewhere on an optimized J-pole for both 2m and 156 MHz, but can't find it at the moment. Maybe someday we'll see a single handheld, certified for both amateur 144 MHz and maritime 156 MHz use, with DSC, internal GPS, and all the bells and whistles. By the way, I made my DSC registration sufficiently generic that it could describe either of the two folding kayaks I own. (The "default" classifications for a kayak on the DSC registration form are rather amusing) It gets trickier taking a VHF radio into American waters. The post-911 requirement is that, " when travelling in USA waters, a radio station licence and an operator's certificate to operate the radio are required to fully comply with international law". And the licence is associated with the vessel, not the radio. So what do I do if I want to use my handheld in one of a number of different kayaks? I could pay the hefty annual licence fee and register the radio to the good ship "Teal Kayak" (since both my Kahuna and K-Light are the same color) - but this is a rather expensive bureaucratic option for the occasional paddle across the boundary. I have heard from several sources that USCG will not respond to distress calls from "unlicenced" foreign craft. And if they do, you'll technically be subject to prosecution. It does get confusing trying to go "by the book" when you're only trying to look out for your personal safety. John C in LondonOn Michael Daly wrote: > > When I bought a VHF last year, I considered the same and decided that > there are no practical solutions yet for the kayaker. If DSC becomes > mandatory in the Great Lakes region in the future, I'll have to buy > something then and, hopefully, a suitable handheld will be available > then. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In addition to what Dave and Craig said, I should point out that the FCC has not for many years required citizens to have a license to transmit over a VHF marine radio, so I cannot imagine why they should require it of Canadians paddling in U.S. waters. Nor can I imagine why 9/11 should have anything to do with such a regulation. However, the current administration has proven to have a much different imagination than mine... Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
cholst_at_bitstream.net wrote: > In addition to what Dave and Craig said, I should point out that the FCC > has not for many years required citizens to have a license to transmit > over a VHF marine radio, so I cannot imagine why they should require it of > Canadians paddling in U.S. waters. This is consistent with international rules - use in foreign waters requires a license. US boaters need a license to use their VHF in Canadian waters. The only odd thing is the requirement for both a station license and an operator's certificate. I thought only the latter was required for US/Canada transborder travel and use. > Nor can I imagine why 9/11 should have > anything to do with such a regulation. I doubt it does - the regs date prior to 9/11. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
To quote directly from the 2004 (rev/05) edition of Maritme Radio Course manual by Canadian Power & Sail Squadrons (who train and administer tests for the Maritime Restricted Operator's Certificates on behalf of the Cdn government) "When a vessel ...is in the sovereign territory of any foreign administration, the provisions of the ITU apply, which requires that all stations be licensed unless there is a treaty between the administrations involved. In 1999, Canada entered into negotiations with the Unitied States for a reciprocal agreement to exempt the requirement for a station license for ...boaters crossing the border into the USA. However, due to 09/11, and continuing homeland security issues, more pressing matters have taken the forefront and an agreement was not reached. ... Industry Canada is hopeful that we will have a Canadian / USA agreement in the future. In the meantime boaters are advised that when travelling in USA waters, a radio station license and an operator's certificate to operate the radio are required to fully comply with international law." The course instructor, and power squadron participants with crafts rather larger than mine ;^) indicated that USCG response to a distress could be contingent on being licenced. When DSC is used (either for automatic distress alerting, or as part of a routine call to another vessel), the MMSI - your unique Maritime Mobile Service Identity - immediately discloses your country of origin. As per Craig & Dave's insights I'm not going to lose sleep about taking my unlicensed VHF marine radio across the middle of the Detroit river and will count on the goodwill and common sense of the FCC and USCG. JohnC cholst_at_bitstream.net wrote: >In addition to what Dave and Craig said, I should point out that the FCC >has not for many years required citizens to have a license to transmit >over a VHF marine radio, so I cannot imagine why they should require it of >Canadians paddling in U.S. waters. Nor can I imagine why 9/11 should have >anything to do with such a regulation. > >However, the current administration has proven to have a much different >imagination than mine... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
VE3JC John wrote: > I have heard from several sources that USCG will not respond to distress > calls from "unlicenced" foreign craft. And if they do, you'll > technically be subject to prosecution. What sources said that? I have monitored _many_ USCG rescue responses, and the subsequent dialog with the affected vessel, at the mouth of the Columbia River. The USCG _never_ asks if the vessel's VHF is registered. Their entire focus is on helping the at-risk vessel and its occupants. Afterwards, in an investigation, that might come out. I'd take the risk of a fine, later, over hazard to my person. It should be mentioned that an unwritten tenet of the FCC's rules is that any radio device used in a true emergency can be used in any way, without penalty. I'd be amazed if there is a single piece of US case law in which prosecution occurred under these circumstances. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 11/17/06, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > > It should be mentioned that an unwritten tenet of the FCC's rules is that > any radio device used in a true emergency can be used in any way, without > penalty. I'd be amazed if there is a single piece of US case law in which > prosecution occurred under these circumstances. Let me second this. I have, in fact, participated in a radio rescue at sea using frequencies which were unauthorized (but available on the vessel's marine SSB transceiver). I subsequently received a "notice of violation" from the FCC and responded by stating that the communications were undertaken during an emergency at sea (which the transcripts of the transmissions - interecepted - clearly showed) and that no other frequency or radio channel were available at that time to successfully pass the necessary information. Nothing more was said. This was, mind you, 20 years ago but I've heard nothing to contradict this in either professional mariner circles or amateur circles in the USA to contradict it. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > On 11/17/06, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> > wrote: > > > > > > It should be mentioned that an unwritten tenet of > the FCC's rules is that > > any radio device used in a true emergency can be > used in any way, without > > penalty. I'd be amazed if there is a single piece > of US case law in which > > prosecution occurred under these circumstances. My understanding is that the same holds true in Canada. In a true emergency, operating a Marine VHF without a license will not get you into trouble. I cannot help but ponder the consequences of this though. One could purchase any number of radio devices without a license - be they ham radio, marine SSB, or perhaps some device offering dedicated use on a commercial frequency. It appears that so long as this device is only used for a true emergency, there are no negative consequences. So what if your radio is confiscated by the FCC. You are better off buying another radio then you are buying a coffin. Perhaps this is a good loophole to get around the limitations of a handheld VHF? Simply obtain a device with better propagation! Or modify your existing radio to give a much stronger signal output. This is probably taking things too far. In an emergency, where is the real line drawn? Derek ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Assoc http://yahoo.degrees.info *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Derek wrote: > --- Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 11/17/06, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> It should be mentioned that an unwritten tenet of the FCC's rules is that >>> any radio device used in a true emergency can be used in any way, without >>> penalty. I'd be amazed if there is a single piece of US case law in which >>> prosecution occurred under these circumstances. > > My understanding is that the same holds true in > Canada. In a true emergency, operating a Marine VHF > without a license will not get you into trouble. This is true. However, ISTR a case in the US many years ago when a person _was_ prosecuted for using a marine VHF without license in an emergency. There was a lot of discussion about it at the time, since it was an example of how you do use the radio at your risk. I don't remember any other details - it may have been that the officials and the user differed on their interpretation of what constituted an emergency. > I cannot help but ponder the consequences of this > though. One could purchase any number of radio > devices without a license - be they ham radio, marine > SSB, or perhaps some device offering dedicated use on > a commercial frequency. It appears that so long as > this device is only used for a true emergency, there > are no negative consequences. The only thing preventing you from doing this is the retailer. Reputable ones will not sell you a ham or commercial unit without proof of license. The same retailers (personal experience) _will_ sell a marine VHF without proof - it seems that they consider ham worth protecting; not sure why they protect land use VHF. I know of one exception where a hiking club I belonged to got two land use handhelds with a nudge-nudge, wink-wink agreement from the seller. Second hand radios are another deal. Dedicated ham users won't sell a unit to you without license since they want to protect their own airwaves. Pawn shops and other sources would sell eagerly. YMMV. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > This is true. However, ISTR a case in the US many years ago when a > person _was_ prosecuted for using a marine VHF without license in an > emergency. There was a lot of discussion about it at the time, since it > was an example of how you do use the radio at your risk. I don't > remember any other details - it may have been that the officials and the > user differed on their interpretation of what constituted an emergency. Oh, boy. I wish you had more details on this. If it had hit the news within the last 10 years, I would have really paid attention. Anybody recall this? If this happened, it would really put the squelch on someone in an iffy situation who had a sub-legal rig. A bad set of choices: use the radio, and invite legal problems; keep quiet, and possibly die. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Oh, boy. I wish you had more details on this. If it > had hit the news > within the last 10 years, I would have really paid > attention. > > Anybody recall this? If this happened, it would > really put the squelch on > someone in an iffy situation who had a sub-legal > rig. A bad set of > choices: use the radio, and invite legal problems; > keep quiet, and > possibly die. Another possibility is that a lot of the emergency calls without a license have a "lack of enforcement" issue attached to them. In Canada, the CRTC has a lot more on their plate then they could possibly enforce with their current resources. If no enforcement officials hear the transmission, did it really exist in the first place? WIth commercial radio, everything is put into a recorded log. When I was involved with a community radio station, everything was taped onto a day-long reel to reel tape recorder. They can go back and check it if there is a complaint within a reasonable timeframe. With the VHF and Ham bands, the transmission is gone at the moment you let go of the "Transmit" button. It seems to me that if you are kayaking in an area with a good 2M repeater, a 2M ham radio handheld would be a practical backup communication device. In Toronto, there is a repeater in the CN tower. The majority of the Toronto waterfront would be within range. The ham community here may stone me for admiting this publicly, but it is the reality. YOur biggest risk is going to be somewhere more remote. The reality is that if the region is truly remote, the odds of your signal being received is also more remote on ALL frequencies. Derek ____________________________________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail beta Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. http://new.mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > Oh, boy. I wish you had more details on this. I did a search on google groups (rec.boat.paddle) and found nothing. However, on reviewing some posts and realizing how far back unlicensed operation was permitted in the US for recreational users, it's likely that the case referenced was _not_ a marine VHF user but rather another band (ham? LMR? not sure). I associate it with marine since I'm fairly certain I read it in a thread on that newsgroup. Anyway, the point at the time was more that it is your responsibility to consider what you are doing before making a mayday call. An invalid mayday, even well intentioned, is not taken lightly by the authorities. Mayday means - imminent threat to life. E.g. unconscious paddler with serious bleeding, anaphylactic shock, heart attack, etc. A conscious paddler with an injury that prevents a return to their point of origin but not in danger otherwise is a pan-pan call, not mayday. Risk is not imminent danger. If it goes on to the point where exposure, starvation, lack of medication or other factors apply, it can shift to a mayday. Use your judgment and if you can contact CG directly with a radio, do that instead of screaming MAYDAY on ch 16. Explain and they can escalate if they see fit. My fuzzy brain cells suggest that the prosecuted user was making a mayday call where a pan-pan should have been made. There was probably a lot more than just the exceptional use of the radio. If you've ever heard The Tonight Show's stupid 911 calls, you'll know that some people consider, say, a dead cellphone battery, a bad movie, not getting proper change for a $1 purchase, etc. an emergency. Alternatively, talk to a triage nurse about how some people find it unfathomable that their sprained pinky is less important than someone with a half-severed limb. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Mayday means - imminent threat to life. E.g. > unconscious paddler with serious > bleeding, anaphylactic shock, heart attack, etc. > > A conscious paddler with an injury that prevents a > return to their point of > origin but not in danger otherwise is a pan-pan > call, not mayday. Risk is not > imminent danger. If it goes on to the point where Your point is well taken. The only problem is that one could make error at the opposite end of the judgement spectrum. If you make the mayday call too late, the authorities may not have time to rescue you in time to save your life. I'm sure those involved in rescue would prefer to rescue a living individual then go out to collect a corpse. We've talked a lot about using illegal equipment to contact help. Isn't obtaining this equipment really just a way to avoid the purchase of an EPIRB? Expensive? Yes. Then again, how much is your life worth? EPIRB+Cell Phone+Marine VHF+Flares+Float Plan is probably your best combined equipment solution. All of it is Marine based. Derek ____________________________________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail beta Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. http://new.mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Derek wrote: > Your point is well taken. The only problem is that > one could make error at the opposite end of the > judgement spectrum. If you make the mayday call too > late, the authorities may not have time to rescue you > in time to save your life. Even a doctor isn't guaranteed to make the right call vis-a-vis true risk to life. You have to do what you think is right. If you genuinely believe that you are dealing with a life threatening situation because it is, to the best of your reckoning, a critical situation, I think you can make a good case with the authorities that you made a legitimate call. If you can describe your concerns realistically, they'll probably say you did the right thing. First aid certification is not a bad thing to have. That can increase your confidence in dealing with such problems. Non-medical emergencies are another thing. We've discussed them a lot and you have to do your best. > We've talked a lot about using illegal equipment to > contact help. Isn't obtaining this equipment really > just a way to avoid the purchase of an EPIRB? The solution is to use legal equipment. If you need a license, get one - they aren't that tough to get. Does 2M ham still require Morse proficiency? Be realistic about what you need - most of us need nothing fancier than a marine VHF. > Expensive? Yes. Then again, how much is your life > worth? EPIRB+Cell Phone+Marine VHF+Flares+Float Plan > is probably your best combined equipment solution. This is true. Add a signal mirror for daytime. A false alarm on an EPIRB is a much bigger deal than an incorrect mayday on a marine VHF handheld. The latter only has a range of line of sight. The former bounces off a satellite, relays to a regional rescue centre and on to the local SAR centre. Trigger an EPIRB on the Canadian Great Lakes and a Hercules takes off from CFB Trenton. Inland in the US, you hit Langley AFB and they relay to a local SAR centre. Coastal US means one of several USCG locations. You do not want to pay the bill, let alone have to call a lawyer for a mistaken EPIRB signal. False alarms are higher than they should be and most are attributed to operator error (according to my older ROC handbook). I would recommend an EPIRB in a true wilderness situation. Much of the Great Lakes where I paddle is not in that category. Much of the coastline of the US that I've seen scarcely qualifies based on my observations sailing and such - so many towns and people! Again, you have to judge what you need. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote: > I would recommend an EPIRB in a true wilderness situation. Much of the > Great > Lakes where I paddle is not in that category. Much of the coastline of > the US > that I've seen scarcely qualifies based on my observations sailing and > such - so > many towns and people! Again, you have to judge what you need. At the risk of stirring up the old risk assessment hornets nest again the above statement got me thinking of that fellow who disappeared off the Brooks this past summer. If he had triggered an EPIRB he'd probably be here to tell us what went wrong. The Brooks is fairly remote but I never thought too much about owning an EPIRB when I've been out there. An EPIRB might be quite useful for some of the other trips I do but the nagging thought of mistakenly turning it on would put a big dent in the overall quality of the trip experience for me. -mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
mike dziobak wrote: > At the risk of stirring up the old risk assessment hornets nest again the > above statement got me thinking of that fellow who disappeared off the > Brooks this past summer. Solo? You need to up your safety margin if you travel solo and an EPIRB is more important. In a group of competent paddlers, an EPIRB is less important since you can help each other. Your life, your money, your choice :-) Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry for hijacking this tread but I'm wondering how useful an EPIRB really is to say a solo paddler in a remote area, at sea and in trouble with offshore high winds. The example I'm thinking of is the paddler who was trying to make it back to his camp on south Brooks late in the afternoon and apparently got caught in a strong head wind and could not make it back to shore. Could an EPIRB have saved the guy? Can a rescue chopper or boat locate the source of an EPIRB signal in a storm on the open sea before it's too late? -mike > mike dziobak wrote: > >> At the risk of stirring up the old risk assessment hornets nest again >> the >> above statement got me thinking of that fellow who disappeared off the >> Brooks this past summer. > > Solo? You need to up your safety margin if you travel solo and an EPIRB > is more > important. In a group of competent paddlers, an EPIRB is less important > since > you can help each other. Your life, your money, your choice :-) > > Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
mike dziobak wrote: > Can a rescue > chopper or boat locate the source of an EPIRB signal in a storm on the > open sea before it's too late? Potentially. Since the EPIRB sends signals via satellite, as long as the satellite is within range of a ground station, the signal is relayed within seconds. The signal then gets to the rescue centre in couple of seconds more and the identity of the user and the GPS location is directly available. The next period of time is that required to dispatch a rescue craft to the location. This is obviously the longest period in the scenario. The EPIRB can be tracked from aircraft AFAIK, so it should be found even if the vessel drifts from the time of initial signal. If you need help in ten minutes, you're out of luck. If you can hang on for an hour or more, depending on distance from the rescue craft's origin and its speed, you should be helped. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] > The solution is to use legal equipment. If you need > a license, get one - they > aren't that tough to get. Does 2M ham still require > Morse proficiency? Until a couple of years ago, morse code was not required on 2M but it was required on other frequencies. Recently, the morse code requirement has been dropped. > Be > realistic about what you need - most of us need > nothing fancier than a marine VHF. One of the advantages of the EPIRB is that it continues to transmit after the person in the mayday situation goes unconscious. It seems to me that this would be desirable in a broad range of scenarios (including those within reasonable proximity to civilization). For any radio transmitter to be of any functional value, someone has to be aware enough to press the "Transmit" button. In Canada, Derek *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Derek wrote: > YOur biggest risk is going to be somewhere more remote. The reality is > that if the region is truly remote, the odds of your signal being > received is also more remote on ALL frequencies. Certainly the case. FWIW, the BC coastline is well-covered in some areas. Vancouver Island, for example, seems to have CCG antennas (which repeat to/from them, but are primary to the area served) on high points in strategic locations, such that handheld transmissions are readily picked up almost everywhere. I worked a minor emergency involving some paddlers camped next to me in Barkley Sound a few years ago, and I was stunned at how good the reception was (of my signal). In comparison, the USCG coverage of the coast of OR and WA is not as good. They release coverage maps showing where they can pick up signals, and there are huge gaps. Two-meter HAM repeaters are sketchy out here. Many are maintained by volunteers, on remote hilltops, with difficult service access. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
To comment on several miscellaneous points ... > > In comparison, the USCG coverage of the coast of OR and WA is not as > good. They release coverage maps showing where they can pick up > signals, and there are huge gaps. > USCG VHF Distress & Safety Coverage charts (color jpg's) are available on-line at http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/cgcomms/nds.htm ============================= > One could purchase any number of radio devices without a license - be > they ham radio, marine > SSB, or perhaps some device offering dedicated use on a commercial > frequency. > The only thing preventing you from doing this is the retailer. > Reputable ones will not sell you a ham or commercial unit without > proof of license. In addition to the retailer, the manufacturer and the design of the equipment itself comes into play with regard to possible "illegal" use of equipment. Where a manufacturer such as ICOM is producing handheld VHF radios for marine VHF and also for other services, they are increasingly looking like the same radio. My Yaesu VX-7R 'waterproof' multi-ham-band radio is capable (with a 5 minute software or hardware modification) of functioning on the maritime VHF band and other services. Of course, it is not type-certified and would be "illegal" to use for that purpose. So to operate legally (assuming I'm paddling only in domestic waters) on both amateur and marine vhf, I will carry my gps-dongle-attached-dsc-equipped-vhf-marine radio for which I hold a valid operator's certificate, and my multiband ham handheld for which I have a valid licence. This of couse makes the deck (&/or pfd !) quite cluttered, but gives me the assurance that I am operating legally. If my Marine VHF should happen to fail or fall into the deep blue, I will of course - in case of emergency - use any capabilities my back-up radio provides. Obviously, paddlers and government agencies shouldn't be primarily focused on the "legality" of the transmitting equipment in the case of true emergency communications. What concerns everyone are the turkeys whose lack of understanding & training results in interference or inappropriate emergency calls. (Speaking of Turkeys, happy thanksgiving paddling to our american friends!) ============================= With regard to Marine VHF Licencing Requirements in **foreign** waters (i.e. the technical requirements presently "on the books", whether or not they are practical or enforced), the following - according to the FCC - applies to US paddlers in Canadian waters: (source: http://wireless.fcc.gov/marine/fctsht14.html ) "You do not need a license to operate a marine VHF radio, radar, or EPIRBs aboard voluntary ships operating **domestically**. Ships are considered as operating domestically when they do not travel to foreign ports or do not transmit radio communications to foreign stations. Sailing in international waters is permitted, so long as the previous conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign port (e.g., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, British Virgin Islands) a license is required. Additionally, if you travel to a foreign port, you are required to have an operator permit " "If you plan to dock in a foreign port (e.g., Canada or the Bahamas) or if you communicate with foreign coast or ship stations, you must have a **RESTRICTED RADIOTELEPHONE OPERATOR PERMIT** (sometimes referred to by boaters as an "individual license") in addition to your **ship radio station license.** However, if (1) you merely plan to sail in domestic or international waters without docking in any foreign ports and without communicating with foreign coast stations, and (2) your radio operates only on VHF frequencies, you do not need an operator permit. NOTE: A ship radio station **license** authorizes radio equipment aboard a ship, while the restricted radiotelephone **operator permit** authorizes a specific person to communicate with foreign stations or use certain radio equipment (e.g., MF/HF single sideband radio or satellite radio). I'm not sure what the ship license costs in the US, but in Canada it is hefty, and must be renewed annually. That's acceptable for a $150K+ yacht cruising foreign shores but (as I said in previous post) not practical for casual paddlers. I'm not trying to be "nit picky" about the licensing requirements (or suggesting that anyone needs to "do" anything to comply with these legal requirements), but I think it's important that we understand they are still on the books, for both Canadian and American paddlers who venture across the international boundary. I recall that the Windsor Ontario paddling group had a pleasant winter paddle planned on the Detroit river on Superbowl weekend. The heightened level of security on the water and in the air convinced them to abandon their plans. In situations like that, where officials may be more prone to "go by the book", it's important to be aware of the technicalities. Hopefully, increased border requirements (passports, etc) won't drive a more rigid enforcement of licensing requirements outlined above. ============================== A FAQ for Ham Maritime Mobile Operation in International Waters is provided by the ARRL at http://www.remote.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/io/maritime.html ============================== Even if you are not planning to make use of DSC in the near future, it is worthwhile obtaining the DSC certification for your Restricted Operator's Certificate. Power & Sail Squadrons generally offer a one or two evening/Saturday course for existing Certificate holders, and the cost of the course includes an excellent book and "Simulator" CD to use on your home computer. ============================== JohnC in LondonOn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). 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VE3JC John wrote: > I'm not sure what the ship license costs in the US, but in Canada it is > hefty, and must be renewed annually. I haven't found the relevant document at the Industry Canada (IC) web site (one refers to the fees for marine mobile station license for a voluntarily fitted vessel in Schedule II-E, but the schedule is not attached, searches come up blank and it remains a mystery). According to "Pat's Boating in Canada" (a reliable source), the fee is only $150 for ten years (2003). Not expensive. Are you confusing the fee with the licensing cost associated with maintaining a fixed (i.e. land based) station for marine VHF? I imagine the costs are similar in the US. Also - referring to another post on licensing requiring the name of the vessel: I found an IC document the states that a _handheld_ marine VHF can be licensed in the name of the owner(s) rather than the vessel if it is to be used on more than one vessel. This resolves the issue of using the radio in any kayak in your fleet. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
VE3JC John wrote: > for a reciprocal agreement to exempt the requirement for a station > license for ...boaters crossing the border into the USA. However, due to > 09/11, and continuing homeland security issues, more pressing matters > have taken the forefront and an agreement was not reached. ... Bummer. Though I think that there's more here than meets the eye. > The course instructor, and power squadron participants with crafts > rather larger than mine ;^) indicated that USCG response to a distress > could be contingent on being licenced. That would be an unconscionable action. I also wonder if it would be legal under international Law of the Sea treaties. Oh, wait - the US hasn't ratified the latest LotS... Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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