On Monday 04 December 2006 15:03, Matt wrote: > Since there are no fibers in rotomolded kayaks increasing > their brittleness becomes a far greater problem for them than for the > resin in a fiberglass kayak. Most of the toughness of rotomolded kayaks > comes from their flexibility so do your best to keep them that way. I fly some model aircraft, and they usually have their wings held in place with nylon bolts, and to keep them flexible, and less brittle you should cook them at least once a season - could the same help for a rotomoulded kayak? Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> On Monday 04 December 2006 15:03, Matt wrote: > > Since there are no fibers in rotomolded kayaks increasing > > their brittleness becomes a far greater problem for them than for the > > resin in a fiberglass kayak. Most of the toughness of rotomolded kayaks > > comes from their flexibility so do your best to keep them that way. > > I fly some model aircraft, and they usually have their wings held in place > with nylon bolts, and to keep them flexible, and less brittle you should > cook them at least once a season - could the same help for a rotomoulded > kayak? > > Tord I guess you could find one of the many "hot springs" scattered around the world and go for a paddle amongst the bathers. You could tour the world, hit a whole bunch of them and apply to the Guinness Book of Records. Otherwise, it's going to one hell of a pot to get the kayak inside! -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When you really need to know, you can look up properties of whatever kind of plastic you are talking about. Here is one citation on nylon. http://www.dynalabcorp.com/technical_info_nylon.asp Marilyn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would say no. PE nalgene bottles that I have filled with near boiling H2O on winter camping trips seem to become brittle and break after only a short period of use. I have some training as a chemist but I don't see how "cooking" a nylon bolt would keep in flexible unless nylon becomes work hardened over time and cooking it anneals it. -mike > > I fly some model aircraft, and they usually have their wings held in place > with nylon bolts, and to keep them flexible, and less brittle you should > cook them at least once a season - could the same help for a rotomoulded > kayak? > > Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
regarding nylon vs polyethylene: nylon is extremely hydroscopic. meaning it absorbs a great deal of moisture. nylon can go from peanut brittle to spaghetti based on humidity and water absorption. a lot of care must be taken to dry it out prior to moulding. this is why what you did with your nylon bolts is a great idea. besides the need for a great big pot, polyethylene does not absorb water like nylon, so this technique would not give you the same results. cheers Bart > > I fly some model aircraft, and they usually have their wings held in place > with nylon bolts, and to keep them flexible, and less brittle you should > cook them at least once a season - could the same help for a rotomoulded > kayak? > > Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
you should cook them at least once a season - could the same help for a rotomoulded kayak? I find boiling things makes food taste bland. What seasonings do you recommend? What about geography? Cayan pepper seasoning for boats paddled in Mexico and seal oil for boats up here in Alaska? Do you boil ruddered kayaks longer or the same amount of time as a boat with a skeg? Just curious Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 12/4/06, Bob Carter <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net> wrote: > > > Do you boil ruddered kayaks longer or the same amount of time as a boat > with a skeg? Bob... always remove the rudders and skegs; if you can't fit them into your mouth sideways (on edge) then you shouldn't be eating kayaks. :) Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The rudders and skegs would serve as good tooth picks afterwasrds. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Jungers To: Bob Carter Cc: paddlewise Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] boiling kayaks On 12/4/06, Bob Carter <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net> wrote: Do you boil ruddered kayaks longer or the same amount of time as a boat with a skeg? Bob... always remove the rudders and skegs; if you can't fit them into your mouth sideways (on edge) then you shouldn't be eating kayaks. :) Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Somewhat talking through my hat here but I believe that nylon is miildly hygroscopic and derives some of its flexibility from the water-swelling. Dry it out and it probably becomes more brittle. I'd take anything Mike Daly says on this over what I just wrote ;] --allan On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:08:41 -0500 (EST), mike dziobak wrote: I would say no. PE nalgene bottles that I have filled with near boiling H2O on winter camping trips seem to become brittle and break after only a short period of use. I have some training as a chemist but I don't see how "cooking" a nylon bolt would keep in flexible unless nylon becomes work hardened over time and cooking it anneals it. -mike > I fly some model aircraft, and they usually have their wings held in place > with nylon bolts, and to keep them flexible, and less brittle you should > cook them at least once a season - could the same help for a rotomoulded > kayak? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Allan McLane wrote: > I'd take anything Mike Daly says on this over what I just wrote ;] Dave's the chemist. I'm out of my league on this one. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tuesday 05 December 2006 05:54, you wrote: > Somewhat talking through my hat here but I believe that nylon is miildly > hygroscopic and derives some of its flexibility from the water-swelling. > Dry it out and it probably becomes more brittle. Yeah, that's it! Had forgotten the reason why, but that's it! Thanks, Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
mike dziobak wrote: > I would say no. PE nalgene bottles that I have filled with near boiling > H2O on winter camping trips seem to become brittle and break after only a > short period of use. I have some training as a chemist but I don't see how > "cooking" a nylon bolt would keep in flexible unless nylon becomes work > hardened over time and cooking it anneals it. Time for me to chine in: the "cooking" Tord refers to is boiling in water, really, and it is the water that does the job, not the heat, although heating hastens the hydration. Nylon embrittles with time as it dries out. Because it is a polyamide, and amide groups are attracted to water, "rehydrating" the nylon seems to prolong its lifetime. I would not have known about this effect, except that a buddy has some nylon bolt-on blades for his gas-powered weed eater, which the manual says should be stored in water so they will remain supple. The soaking reduces blade failure in use. Most of us have experienced the stretching of nylon cordage used for tent and tarp tie-outs as it gets wet. This is a variant of the same effect. Soaking in water won't help rotomoulded boats ... they will die no matter how wet they get! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wonder if someone could confirm this experience about the Nalgene bottles and clarify the issues with the various bottle plastics. I use the Lexan Nalgene bottles for the same purposes but do not have enough experience to know if this shortens their life. The data that Nalgene supplies implies that these bottles can deal with these temperatures. On Dec 5, 2006, at 12:54 AM, Dave Kruger wrote: >> I would say no. PE nalgene bottles that I have filled with near >> boiling H2O on winter camping trips seem to become brittle and >> break after only a >> short period of use. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Livingston wrote: > I wonder if someone could confirm this experience about the Nalgene > bottles and clarify the issues with the various bottle plastics. My only experience with the PE Nalgene bottles is that they become brittle over time regardless of what goes in them. Whether hot water accelerates this is moot for me, since I gave up on these in favour of the polycarbonate (Lexan) versions. Aside from embrittlement, the PE bottles make water taste yucky. > The data that > Nalgene supplies implies that these bottles can deal with these > temperatures. The only issue with the polycarbonate bottles and hot water is the leaching of (I forget the name) chemicals into the water. Whether or not this represents an appreciable health risk was discussed a while back on this forum with several posters offering the opinion that it is a small risk. Polycarbonate certainly can handle autoclave conditions without significant reductions in apparent material properties. They can also handle freezing well - I know a lot of folks who put a Nalgene bottle nearly full of water in the freezer to provide cold water on a long hot day. I haven't heard of one breaking due to ice expansion yet, but those I know make sure there's an air space in the bottle to take up some expansion. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>I wonder if someone could confirm this experience about the Nalgene >>bottles and clarify the issues with the various bottle plastics. > >Polycarbonate certainly can handle autoclave conditions without >significant reductions in apparent material properties. Aging of polycarbonate is accelerated by boiling etc. It can withstand autoclaving but there is loss in mechanical strength so Nalgene doesn't recommend use in centrifuges after "repeated" sterilization. I don't use their water bottles but do use their stuff in the lab. To what extent pouring boiling water into polycarbonate water bottles reduces their strength is hard to estimate but it does cause leaching (though apparently minimal) and the formation of microcracks. If Nalgene says its safe to do then its probably not a real problem and just something to be a little more careful about as long as you don't mind replacing your bottle after a while. Shin -- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shin SUGIYAMA wrote: Good info to know, Shin san. > and the formation of microcracks. I've seen lots of fine cracks form over time but never noticed a significant loss of strength or stiffness in _normal_ use. They certainly don't have the effect that the cracking in the PE versions do. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK. Lots of people have trouble sorting these out, and for those who get strayed: 1. Nalgene is a brand name, not a type of bottle or a kind of plastic. 2. Nalgene bottles come in Polyethylene (the classic white translucent ones). 3. Nalgene bottles come in Polycarbonate AKA Lexan (the new rigid ones: transparent, first in smoke colour now in many colours). ========== 4. I think the original Q was about the old white PE bottles (getting harder to find) not the rigid Lexan ones. I do not know if they are affected by boiling, but I certainly doubt the new type PC/Lexan one are. 5. I have 10-15 yr old PE bottles, some of which were frozen almost daily for years on end. I don't notice the taste, and because they are a bit flexible I felt better about freezing them. I never worried about splitting them with ice expansion. It is only recently that one split in the freezer, after being filled under a block of ice already inside, which was then pushed against the top end, and pushe dthrough it by the expansion. 6. I sometimes freeze the PC/Lexan bottles, but with cubes as a starter to limit the expansion of a single block freezing. If I just put water in to freeze, I put only a little water in to start them off, and on a slant so expansion will push up the sides, and not straight outward. 7. I cannot see how the PC/Lexan bottles could resist the pressures of a full bottle of water freezing and expanding. I have burst all kinds of things over the years. 8. Just so you know, I live on ice water the way some people live on coffee. GaryJ >>>I would say no. PE nalgene bottles that I have filled with near >>>boiling H2O on winter camping trips seem to become brittle and >>>break after only a >>>short period of use. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For what it is worth, the youth group I do kayak trips with gives a Nalgene bottle to each teen before each trip. It gives them one good water bottle and is a nice souvenir. It is imprinted with the name of the organization and with a list of Leave No Trace principles. The LNT folks would not give their seal of approval if the bottles were to be Lexan, they have to be PE because Lexan is not recyclable. For the Green fanatics among us . . . Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The LNT folks would not give their seal of approval if the bottles were > to be Lexan, they have to be PE because Lexan is not recyclable. > > For the Green fanatics among us . . . Eh. That's silly. Lexan is tough and lasts forever. To me that's more important than recyclable. And I try and be as green as possible. There are millions of recyclable cheap plastic bottles clogging landfills. I wish "greenies" would focus on buying less, and buying things that will last forever (including styles). That's going to do as much or more than recycling ever will. g *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> The LNT folks would not give their seal of approval if the bottles were >> to be Lexan, they have to be PE because Lexan is not recyclable. > > Eh. That's silly. Lexan is tough and lasts forever. To me that's more > important than recyclable. And I try and be as green as possible. There > are millions of recyclable cheap plastic bottles clogging landfills. > > I wish "greenies" would focus on buying less, and buying things that will > last forever (including styles). That's going to do as much or more than > recycling ever will. I agree for the most part. But I find the PE tops on those Lexan wide mouth bottles wear out pretty fast for me and begin to leak. I've resorted to putting a rubber o-ring in the groove of the screw top cover but it doesn't want to stay there especially with hot liquids. My most favored bottles are the PET soda pop bottles especially the ones with wide mouths like the 1.5 liter Nestea iced tea bottles available here in the Azores. I like putting dry foods like rice and powder milk in them and cram them in all the little voids in Mariner II on long trips. There's something real nice about grabing a container like that out of the kayak instead of struggling with a dry bag. They last forever but it's too bad they do weird things when hot liquids are poored in them. Anyone else here use those PET sode bottles? -mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Geoff Jennings wrote: > Eh. That's silly. Lexan is tough and lasts forever. To me that's more > important than recyclable. Why I wouldn't express it as strongly as you, there is merit to this. I have Lexan bottles that are still usable after over 15 years and that represents about 3-4 recycled PE bottles each. Reduction is better than recycling in general. It is possible to recycle polycarbonate - it just is not as easily done as other plastics. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Geoff Jennings wrote: > > > Eh. That's silly. Lexan is tough and lasts forever. To me that's more > > important than recyclable. > > Why I wouldn't express it as strongly as you, there is merit to this. I have > Lexan bottles that are still usable after over 15 years and that represents > about 3-4 recycled PE bottles each. Reduction is better than recycling in > general. > > It is possible to recycle polycarbonate - it just is not as easily done as other > plastics. > > Mike I was chatting with one of the lads who heads up the garbage collection and recycling for the City of Ottawa the other day, and he mentioned to me that most plastics can only be recycled once or twice. After that, they end up in a landfill somewhere. So, it would seem to me that getting something that last for a long time would be a lot better than getting something that can be recycled. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Otherwise, it's going to one hell of a pot to get the kayak inside! > > -- > Darryl For us married folk all we have to do is go out and buy a new boat without telling our wives. When she finds out we have plenty of hot water to work with. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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