Well, I've been sick in bed all week with atrial fibrillation refractory to immediate drug control; while loafing about in bed, I've been thinking about baidarka plans for a bit of inspiration. I was wondering if anyone has experience with the differential between the reported fast speed of a planning baidarka hull and that of a more typical Greenland SOF. Also, does the fork bow of a baidarka disadvantage a paddler in heavy kelp, in terms of getting kelp stalks trapped during wave action? Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > I was > wondering if anyone has > experience with the differential between the > reported fast speed of a > planning baidarka hull and that of a more typical > Greenland SOF. I haven't compared them beyond noting that there are fast Aleut kayaks, and there are fast Greenland kayaks; fwiw, I'm pretty slow anyways. Some of the early reported speeds of baidarkas would be well beyond most people's power out-put-- such speeds may have been exaggerated. . . or not. > Also, does > the fork bow of a baidarka disadvantage a paddler in > heavy kelp, in terms of > getting kelp stalks trapped during wave action? The 'open-mouth' baidarkas apparently had thin strips of baleen placed to prevent things from getting caught in the mouth. Other baidarkas have an upturned lower portion, thus having an integral mouthgaurd as it were. All the best, and get well soon, Harvey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mar 10, 2007, at 1:29 AM, Harvey Golden wrote: > --- Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: >> I was >> wondering if anyone has >> experience with the differential between the >> reported fast speed of a >> planning baidarka hull and that of a more typical >> Greenland SOF. > > I haven't compared them beyond noting that there are > fast Aleut kayaks, and there are fast Greenland > kayaks; fwiw, I'm pretty slow anyways. Some of the > early reported speeds of baidarkas would be well > beyond most people's power out-put-- such speeds may > have been exaggerated. . . or not. I don't think we need to resort to "exaggeration" to explain the speed accounts. One of the best documented accounts talk about kayaks paddling against a strong current while the observer was sailing up a river. What this account says to me is this sounds like the ideal conditions for surfing. A ship sailing up a river probably has a tail wind as wind tend to go up and down rivers. The current was fairly obviously going down the river. So, wind going up the river, current going down, i.e. opposing wind and current -> great conditions for surfing. If the paddler knows what he is doing, kayaks can sustain speeds over 10 knots in the right following seas. In a race like the Molokai Challenge the record holder averaged 9.4 mph for 32 miles. Winning this race depends heavily on surfing ability. Even I am able to bring a relatively short (greenlandish) kayak up to a GPS measured 12 mph and sustain it for a quarter mile on relatively small non-breaking waves. I am sure baidarkas were designed in such a way that they were capable of surfing. I am sure the Aleuts were skilled enough and strong enough to catch fast moving waves. It sounds like some of the accounts included conditions ideal for surfing. My conclusion is, at least some of the accounts were of kayakers engaged in surfing. I don't see anything about Greenland style SOF kayaks that would make them less capable. In my understanding of "planing" some kayaks will plane when surfing some waves, but I haven't seen any plane solely under human power. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > One of the best documented accounts > talk about kayaks > paddling against a strong current while the observer > was sailing up a > river. What this account says to me is this sounds > like the ideal > conditions for surfing. A ship sailing up a river > probably has a tail > wind as wind tend to go up and down rivers. The > current was fairly > obviously going down the river. Dear Nick, I don't know of this account. . . where can it be found? I agree with your assessment of the situation, i.e., likely surfing conditions. Most of the accounts I've read are in open-water conditions (presented by Dyson in "Form and Function of the Baidarka: The framework of design" in Contributions to Kayak Studies, 1991). Surfing could of course account for some of these as well. In any case, so much is made of the kayak when in reality it is the paddler's skill and strength that makes all the difference. Best, Harvey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Double checking, the particular account I was thinking of is in Form and Function... page 3; "We supposed the strong tide to run near 8 knots per hour, for on heaving the Log once We found ourselves going thro' the water above 6 knots, yet falling fast astern by the land. At this time the Indians in their Seal skin Canoes kept way with us very easily" I guess it wasn't a river, but Unalga Pas. But the principle is the same: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp? lat=53.9511&lon=-166.205&datum=nad27&u=4&layer=DRG&size=l&s=500 A fast moving body of water with wind enough to push a sailboat I presume to be a square rigger - i.e. optimized for down-wind sailing. This account is more detailed than the others, providing a speed measured concurrent with the observation in a very specific location. Most of the others don't really give much to chew on. Nick On Mar 12, 2007, at 11:30 AM, Harvey Golden wrote: > --- Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: >> One of the best documented accounts >> talk about kayaks >> paddling against a strong current while the observer >> was sailing up a >> river. What this account says to me is this sounds >> like the ideal >> conditions for surfing. A ship sailing up a river >> probably has a tail >> wind as wind tend to go up and down rivers. The >> current was fairly >> obviously going down the river. > > Dear Nick, > I don't know of this account. . . where can it be > found? I agree with your assessment of the > situation, i.e., likely surfing conditions. Most of > the accounts I've read are in open-water conditions > (presented by Dyson in "Form and Function of the > Baidarka: The framework of design" in Contributions to > Kayak Studies, 1991). Surfing could of course account > for some of these as well. > > In any case, so much is made of the kayak when in > reality it is the paddler's skill and strength that > makes all the difference. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Harvey said (snip): > The 'open-mouth' baidarkas apparently had thin strips > of baleen placed to prevent things from getting caught > in the mouth. Other baidarkas have an upturned lower > portion, thus having an integral mouthgaurd as it > were. Thanks Harvey; should have been obvious to me without asking, the answer being native ingenuity based on materials available. >Some of the > early reported speeds of baidarkas would be well > beyond most people's power out-put-- such speeds may > have been exaggerated. . . or not. I wasn't too sure about the claims of a planing hull for some of the original Baidarkas. I kinda figured what paddlers and historians were referring to was that the Baidarka hull probably displaced significantly less water than other native craft. I have heard they are very fast, including most of the modern do-it-yourself, built from strip plans baidarkas. Though some blogs suggest the SW Greenland configurations area bit more of a fun kayak to paddle - that being subjective of course. John Winters said (snip): > Has anyone documented that these boats could plane? I have Dyson's video > and > it is clear that the boat in question did not plane even when paddled by > an > Olympic paddler I think Dyson's video is where I first heard the "planing" hull mentioned. Scientific American Frontiers: Rebuilding the Legendary Baidarka has it on-line _at_: >http://www.pbs.org/saf/previous/watchonline203.htm< There does seem to be some recognized ability for the surfing attributes of the traditional Baidarkas, though I'm not sure how well they do in an actual steep, following sea, running downwind. Even though there is a reserve buoyancy lift in the bifrucated bow, I wonder how much of a problem this might be. The fishform must help. I hate loosing speed on good downwind runs due to submerging and loss of momentum. My original post was in the context of thinking about making a kayak for fast running, though I'll never have the bone length/strength of the ancient Aleutians. Doug Lloyd ----- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Harvey said (snip): > > The 'open-mouth' baidarkas apparently had thin strips of > baleen placed > > to prevent things from getting caught in the mouth. Other > baidarkas > > have an upturned lower portion, thus having an integral > mouthgaurd as > > it were. > Doug said: (snip) > Thanks Harvey; should have been obvious to me without asking, > the answer being native ingenuity based on materials available. Doug, One of my friends (John Peterson - Shayman Kayaks http://shamankayaks.com/shaman/) builds SOF boats using the same methods and materials as the original kayakers (except he uses a nylon skin instead of sealskin) and he puts a piece of string on the bows of the baidarkas he builds to simulate the baleen the Native American paddlers used. He regularly paddles through kelp and rolls in it and he has never had a problem with it to my knowledge. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mar 11, 2007, at 6:20 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > I kinda figured what paddlers and historians were referring to was > that the Baidarka hull probably displaced significantly less water > than other native craft. A 135# paddler in a 30# boat is going to displace 165# of water no matter what the shape of the hull. This is the basic definition of displacement as determined by Archimedes. Obviously, a traditional craft built more lightly will displace less and any boat carrying authentic Canadian ballast stones will displace more, but there is nothing inherent in the hull shape of a baidarka that allows it to displace any less water than any other native craft. A coracle will displace exactly as much water as a baidarka of the same weight. Ncik Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 3/12/07, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > > > A 135# paddler in a 30# boat is going to displace 165# of water no > matter what the shape of the hull. Unless, of course, the boat sinks. Then the water displaced will be equal to the sum of the volume of the paddler and the material in the boat. :) (A less-understood corollary to Archimedes' theories.) Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mar 9, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > ...I've been thinking about baidarka plans for a bit of > inspiration. I was wondering if anyone has experience with the > differential between the reported fast speed of a planning baidarka > hull and that of a more typical Greenland SOF.... On more than one occasion in a following sea I have laid my paddle across the cockpit of my baidarka and relaxed. I was curious to see if my paddle partners could keep up at a typical cruising pace. No racing here keep in mind. I have yet to have anyone keep up. The baidarka is an amazing machine. I think it might be compared to a Macintosh computer. Well loved by its owners but not to be picked up by the masses. I'm keeping mine. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Nick. Sorry you had to go over Displacement 101. Maybe you can see how I was a bit confused with Dyson's assertions stirring the waters, me being gullible. I guess the only planing hulls kayakers paddle would be the flat bottomed white water river yaks. Though I'm sure they are perhaps not true planing hulls, though I think I've planed down a few Pacific swell wave faces. -). > For those who want to see some of the video you can check http:// > www.pbs.org/saf/previous/watchonline203.htm > Nick > > > On Mar 10, 2007, at 7:17 AM, John Winters wrote: > >> Doug Lloyd wrote: >>> I was wondering if anyone has experience with the differential between >>> the >>> reported fast speed of a planning baidarka hull and that of a more >>> typical >>> Greenland SOF. >> >> Has anyone documented that these boats could plane? I have Dyson's video >> and it is clear that the boat in question did not plane even when >> paddled by an Olympic paddler. > > Nick Schade > > Guillemot Kayaks > 824 Thompson St > Glastonbury, CT 06033 > USA > Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> I guess the only planing hulls kayakers paddle would be the flat bottomed white water river yaks. There are any number of surf boats and wave skis which are true "planing hulls." Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yeah, I left out surf yaks, as most river kayaks aren't all-out displacement hulls anymore and I use my flat-hulled river yak for surfing. Thanks for the reminder though. Someone told me there's a bit of a revival with surf-specific kayaks and the sit on top wave skis these days. Take care Scott. Doug >>> I guess the only planing hulls kayakers paddle would be the flat >>> bottomed > white water river yaks. > > There are any number of surf boats and wave skis which are true "planing > hulls." > > Scott > So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:43 PDT