Yesterday, Len Goodman, the president of California Kayak Friends (CKF), died while kayaking. He was supposed to have joined me and several other friends as we paddled out of Carpinteria, California south of Santa Barbara. Len called while I was enroute to tell me that he had had car trouble and wouldn't make it on time so he was going to paddle by himself from Channel Islands Harbor in Oxnard CA about 30 miles south of where the rest of us went. This was a place that Len frequently paddled from and paddling solo was not unusual for him. Although his 76th birthday, would have been this coming Thursday, Len was a strong and conservative paddler. When I returned home from paddling, I found a message from the Coast Guard Station, Channel Islands on my answering machine requesting I call them about a lost kayak. When I called, they said not to worry about it that everything was under control. I asked again for more details but received the same answer. Thinking there was nothing more here than a kayak that fell off a dock, I proceeded to sit down to write a trip report about the fabulous day 9 of us had in Carpinteria. Thirty minutes later, I received a phone call from Coast Guard, Los Angeles - the HQ unit for the Channel Islands station. They asked me if I knew anything about Goodman's boat. Putting two and two together I asked if this was the boat that was found in Channel Islands. When they said yes, I described Len's boat The only information they could give me was that he had been rescued in the water and turned over to the EMT's for transport to a hospital. They did not know the hospital and they also had not notified Len's wife because they had no solid information to give her. I then called one of our other friends (Peter O'Sullivan) who was paddling with me and is a retired Ventura County fire captain. He managed to find out where Len had been taken. I called the hospital and of course they wouldn't tell me anything. When I explained I needed to be able to tell his wife not to worry that Len was being released and we would take him to his car or that she should get to the hospital right away, they said although they couldn't say anything, it did not look good and somebody should drive her to the hospital. While I met his wife and drove her the 30 miles to the hospital, Peter got with his fire department friends and we managed to piece together part of the story. We know that according to Peter's wife, the winds in Oxnard started howling at about 9:00 AM. Len was a conservative paddler and wouldn't launch in those conditions, much less try take his boat off his car by himself with that much wind. (it was an off shore wind). Just before 3:00 PM, a boater called the Coast Guard to report an empty kayak drifting approximately 2 miles off shore. When Len paddled solo, he usually stayed in the harbor if there was any wind to speak of. Otherwise, he would paddle along the coast, in sight of land at all times. As the CG was going out to pick up the kayak, they found Len floating in the water. He was wearing a wetsuit and pfd. He was also a very thin man without an ounce of fat on him and easily got cold. Although the air temps were close to 80, the water temps were probably about 55 - 56 deg F. CPR was started and Len was taken to the hospital. He had no cardiac response and his core temperature was 80 degrees. They tried warming him with blankets and by pumping warmed saline into his abdomen. CPR was continued continuously for 6 1/2 hours while they raised his core temperature to 88 degrees. With out any coronary response, they finally pronounced him at about 10:15 last night. I'm still in shock over this and I see some immediate lessons to be learned which I'll summarize. I'm sure there are more that escape me now and others that someone else will have to point out. Len did not have a VHF with him, since his died over a year ago and he never got around to replacing it, That one piece of equipment could possibly have saved his life. He also did not have any flares, although if he did, they could have drifted away with his boat, most of us who do carry flares, keep them in a day hatch or inside hatch as opposed to on our vests. I know my flares are all too big to fit in my pfd pockets. I don't know if he carried a signal mirror, laser or not. He did not have his name and phone number written in his boat. The only identification that Len had was his name was written on the inside of his wet suit and the hospital found it when they removed it from him. If he had an "In Case of Emergency" (ICE) number programmed into his cell phone, it was in a dry bag inside the kayak and I don't believe the CG even found that - at least we had no indication that they did. Len will be missed by all of his friends. Although he was older than most of the "Old Farts" that paddle together, it was difficult to keep up with him when he wanted to go fast. He was in very good physical shape and we all thought he'd be paddling with us for many years. For those of you who knew Len, if you want to say anything to his family, please send it to me off line via email. I will be printing out all of the emails I receive from his friends and passing them on to the family. We don't know when the funeral will be, but Peter O"Sullivan and I will be putting together a memorial paddle out of Channel Islands sometime after the funeral. Anybody who will want to attend, should email me and I'll let you know the details when they are firmed up. Steve Holtzman Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am very, very sorry about your friend Steve. > > He did not have his name and phone number written in his boat. The > only > identification that Len had was his name was written on the inside > of his > wet suit and the hospital found it when they removed it from him. > In SC you must have ID with you while boating. The DNR guy who gave a written warning to a friend for lack of ID while kayaking said a laminated photocopy of a drivers license would be fine. I keep an old GA temporary license in my PFD. It has survived eight years of sitting in various PFDs during that time and still looks new. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 23:22 -0400, James Farrelly wrote: > I am very, very sorry about your friend Steve. Steve, Sorry to hear about your friend, Steve. You may not remember, but we've met a few times I think. I used to work at Southwind and then Seda. I think I've met Len, but missed the original post about this sad event. Could someone kindly resend? Geoff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve, I with many others share our condolences. It is not easy to lose a friend on the water, I know, I have been there . In the days to come when you paddle again take his memories with you and the sea will give you comfort. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve, Our thoughts are with you and Len's family. Josh Teitelbaum Terra Santa Sea Kayak Club Herzliya, Israel *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve writes; >>Yesterday, Len Goodman, the president of California Kayak Friends (CKF), died while kayaking. >> I see some immediate lessons to be learned which I'll summarize. >>Len did not have a VHF with him, since his died over a year ago and he never got around to replacing it, That one piece of equipment could possibly have saved his life. I do not believe that "more gadgets" is the solution to safer sea kayaking. Being able to accurately evaluate the situation, and the risks, and then honestly weigh them against ones skill and equipment is what is needed. Probably 90% of my paddling is solo offshore and I don't own a radio - never have! You describe Len as a "strong and conservative paddler" who was wearing a pfd and wetsuit in sunny Southern California, yet he died anyway - how about that. Do we even know what the actual cause of death was? It could have just as easily have been a stroke or a heart attack (he was 76 years old after all), in which case all the extraneous gear in the world may not have helped. From the information so far made available I am not convinced that Len did anything "wrong" to cause or unduly contribute towards his demise. To even suggest otherwise, I believe, is a bit overly presumptuous. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott said: I do not believe that "more gadgets" is the solution to safer sea kayaking. Being able to accurately evaluate the situation, and the risks, and then honestly weigh them against ones skill and equipment is what is needed. With all due respect (honest!), Scott, I think you are just off base. No, more gadgets do not make one safe. But neither does accurately weighing the risks after evaluation. Sometimes weird things happen, completely out of the blue. In Maine last summer I was leading a group of eight teens and four adults in Casco Bay. Clear day, few clouds, little wind, steady temperature. No changes in conditions for five hours. Then 20 mph or more winds all of a sudden. Scattered our group, challenged the ability and stability of the other adults who were in singles, but not, happily, the kids in their doubles. Without radios to tell everyone what the plan was, I would have been pretty stressed and the others pretty unsafe. And if things went bad and we couldn't handle the situation, radios would have brought help in minutes, since the bay is full of lobsterboats and sailers. I hate carrying stuff like pumps, paddle floats and radios. On my own I figure I will not be likely to use them because I have never been knocked out of my sea kayak. (Whitewater is a different story!) But in a group, or out on open water, as opposed to the river paddling I do at home, all that stuff goes with me. I'd hate for my wife to be a widow just because I didn't have a radio. And what if I come upon an emergency and want to get help? Do you wear a pfd? Or is that also "extraneous" gear? And if it isn't, where do you draw the line? Of all the safety stuff we carry that is not a pfd and sprayskirt, I think a radio is tops in importance. My unhumble opinion. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Hey friends, there are risks is everything we do. Shouldn't we be focusing on the many things Len has done right in life? On the same day that we lost Len to the sea, Bill Pochirowski died on a motorcross track racing. Bill was 68 years old. Both Len and Bill and others like them will be missed. Both are inspirational. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve writes: >>Len did not have a VHF with him, since his died over a year ago and he > never got around to replacing it, That one piece of equipment could > possibly have > saved his life. This seems like a pretty fair statement to me. Regardless of the cause of death, having a VHF might have brought rescue in time. Kiaker writes: I do not believe that "more gadgets" is the solution to safer sea > kayaking. Being able to accurately evaluate the situation, and the risks, > and then honestly weigh them against ones skill and equipment is what is > needed. This also seems like a pretty fair statement. A novice paddler who sets off on a DougLloydian exploit is being stupid regardless of gadgetry aboard. Are these two points of view mutually exclusive? I don't think so and I don't think that many paddlers would even argue that they are. These issues have been covered numerous times but it's probably not a bad idea to get them back out on the table at the beginning of another paddling season. Whether there are novice paddlers reading this or not, we could all use a refresher course on common sense. There are certain circumstances in which it can be obvious to almost anyone that taking a kayak out will be risking life and limb. But a lot of the time it's not obvious. If we imagine a balance-scale with one side labeled "life-saving gadgets" and the other side labeled "obvious or not-so-obvious dangers" then maybe we can assess our actions a little better. If one is paddling on a calm lake in July with the water temperature at 85F and you are 1200 miles from the nearest USCG station then you might consider leaving your VHF at home. But you might want to take your GPS because it's totaling up the miles you paddle this season. Should you wear a wetsuit? A helmet? A spray skirt? In some jurisdictions wearing a PFD is mandatory but if that's not your jurisdiction should you wear one or just put it behind the seat? Is a cell phone a piece of safety equipment or a gadget? There are lots of times when having a gadget aboard will do nothing to enhance safety; yours or anyone else. But there are also times when it's obviously useful to have a GPS or a VHF at hand. Is it mandatory? I don't think so. But it can be ethical. Let me explain. I've been friends with a retired federal officer for a long time. While this person was employed he had to carry a handgun at all times. This was both a matter of public safety but also a matter of common sense; you never know which person you arrested last year is behind you in the Safeway checkout line. When he retired he continued carrying a handgun. It wasn't the same handgun but a smaller version that he would not have been allowed to carry on duty but that he felt was still an effective deterrent to negative reactions should that be necessary. I asked him why he continued to carry and he told me that the public had paid a lot of money to train him in the use of firearms and when to use them and when not to. If he were to find himself in an bank or store or elevator full of innocent people suddenly under attack he'd feel pretty stupid if he couldn't at least do *something*. Moreover, he felt that the people might have been entitled to a certain amount of outrage if he didn't. That's why I carry a VHF when I paddle on Puget Sound or Willapa Bay or on the Columbia River. I'd feel pretty stupid if someone got into trouble and I wasn't prepared. They might not know better, but I certainly should. I do not think that "gadgets" should be mandatory. But I think that there are conditions under which experienced paddlers should consider having them around. It's up to us to judge those conditions. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was very saddened to hear about the loss of Steve's friend. The only solace is he died doing an activity he obviously enjoyed - something wholesome with a more minimal footprint here on earth, as opposed to sinking and drowning in some big power boat or falling off said power boat during a possible ischemic event. Scott did have a point about COD. Though, the reason for cause of death might not be under the purview of a coroner, we may never know. We do die from and while kayaking now and then; we all die from old age anyways, someday. Back to the abyss - or not. One Victoria paddler I know that started kayaking late in life is still going strong at 82, leading trips and inspiring a younger generation. Duncan challenges many a Victoria paddler with their own perspective paradigm of what the older generation is capable of doing.. As has come up on this list numerous times, Scott likes to be the voice that offsets anyone promoting safety gear as a panacea. As usual, some of us like to chime in and state the obvious, a statement off repeated here and which is something most of us in the paddling community would agree upon (at least the paddlers I associate with), that good judgment and knowledge of the environment to make objective risk assessment comes first, followed closely by skill and a building up of metered-out experience, then finally appropriate gear choices - which can range from the difference between a taking out a cheap recreational kayak compared to using a sea-going touring kayak or a slightly leaky SOF traversing the same rough water, as it can also be the decisions about what your minimal safety gear should be. Personally, I paddled for years without a VHF radio. My marine band Radio Shack radio provided the weather information I needed as a backup to growing sea-sense, while pushing myself through the learning curve in various coastline environments and conditions. At some point, after some poor judgment was shown, I came to see the benefit of a way to communicate directly to facilitate rescues as well as prevent unwarranted emergency responses, and yes - even prevent death or deaths. Then I saw further benefit from my VHF radio as I started using it, or at least listening to it, especially in busy vessel areas. Dave Kruger sparked that bit of enlightenment in me a few years back with a rather innocuous statement on Paddlewise that VHF radio usage was simply (or perhaps should be ) considered part of your responsibility as a marine waterway user amongst the community of boaters. These small "lightbulb" moments are one of the reasons I continue to subscribe to Paddlewise. But, if someone doesn't want to paddle with a VHF radio, or even a PFD, I still love them. :-) It is their choice. Given some particular stretches of coastline I paddle in, dependent on time of year often, I may choose not to paddle with such a person, just as there are paddlers who might not like to paddle with someone they deem as overly gear dependent or a high-risk taker who enjoys sado-masochism by wind and wave. It's nice to have a forum where this can be discussed as adults, with some moderation if things get vitriolic, or perhaps even too commercial. My basic PFD gear is a non negotiable discussion to me. I'll hold my course on that one until someone rips the paddle out of my cold, dead hands, as they say. On-board safety and re-entry gear is something I'm more apt to hold a modifiable discussion about. Paddlefloats, Spoonsons, and other device-oriented ways of dealing with the aftermath of a wet exit are areas where I know some paddlers get into big trouble from a perspective of sometimes unjustified reliance. But even here, the waters are murky, as it is with those who choose to paddle solo. In another post I mentioned the addition to my list of expedition gear of an approved marine location transmitter. That needs to be understood in the context of a paddler who is aging with attendant health issues, and who still has a relatively young family to raise. As folks like John Winters have pointed out before, the trick is to not forego responsible travel along the coastline or in remote wilderness just because your safety net has expanded exponentially. I've likely reached my limit of safety gear in this life, though I think my wife would like me to have an embedded personal GPS-based locator to keep track of me. Spouses and partners tend to feel that way I suppose when they finally comprehend you have a lifelong mistress - in my case, the sea. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC > Scott said: I do not believe that "more gadgets" is the solution to > safer sea kayaking. Being able to accurately evaluate the situation, and > the risks, and then honestly weigh them against ones skill and equipment > is what is needed. > > > > With all due respect (honest!), Scott, I think you are just off base. > No, more gadgets do not make one safe. But neither does accurately > weighing the risks after evaluation. Sometimes weird things happen, > completely out of the blue. In Maine last summer I was leading a group > of eight teens and four adults in Casco Bay. Clear day, few clouds, > little wind, steady temperature. No changes in conditions for five > hours. Then 20 mph or more winds all of a sudden. Scattered our group, > challenged the ability and stability of the other adults who were in > singles, but not, happily, the kids in their doubles. Without radios to > tell everyone what the plan was, I would have been pretty stressed and > the others pretty unsafe. And if things went bad and we couldn't handle > the situation, radios would have brought help in minutes, since the bay > is full of lobsterboats and sailers. > > I hate carrying stuff like pumps, paddle floats and radios. On my own I > figure I will not be likely to use them because I have never been > knocked out of my sea kayak. (Whitewater is a different story!) But in > a group, or out on open water, as opposed to the river paddling I do at > home, all that stuff goes with me. I'd hate for my wife to be a widow > just because I didn't have a radio. And what if I come upon an > emergency and want to get help? > > Do you wear a pfd? Or is that also "extraneous" gear? And if it isn't, > where do you draw the line? Of all the safety stuff we carry that is > not a pfd and sprayskirt, I think a radio is tops in importance. > > My unhumble opinion. > > > Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mar 15, 2007, at 4:38 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > I was very saddened to hear about the loss of Steve's friend. The > only solace is he died doing an activity he obviously enjoyed... I had a discussion once with a friend of mine who is known to take some risks on the water. I asked him if it would be OK if he died while kayaking. He said, "No, I would feel horribly let down. I would feel that the place I love has turned against me." So, how would you feel? Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about that on the water. Should the sea take my life some day, it'll probably be my fault and besides, I owe it something for all the joy it gives me. I can most definitely think of far worse ways to go Mark Sanders *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > I had a discussion once with a friend of mine who is known to take some > risks on the water. I asked him if it would be OK if he died while > kayaking. He said, "No, I would feel horribly let down. I would feel > that the place I love has turned against me." > > So, how would you feel? I believe that if you believe the sea loves you, you are on track for a major attitude re-adjustment. All things considered, dying at home with my family is more attractive than dying on the water. I'd like to be Doug's friend's age in either case. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A man who is not afraid of sea will soon be drowned, he said, For he will be going out on a day he shouldnt. But we do be afraid of the sea, And we do only be drowned now and again. John Millington Synge The Aran Islands > > I believe that if you believe the sea loves you, you are on track > for a major attitude re-adjustment. > > > > Steve Steve you made me laugh in a good way! Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer wrote: > All things considered, dying at home with my family is more attractive > than dying on the water. I often think of Woody Allen's philosophy at these times: "I'm not afraid of dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens." Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mar 15, 2007, at 5:25 PM, Steve Cramer wrote: > Nick Schade wrote: >> I had a discussion once with a friend of mine who is known to take >> some risks on the water. I asked him if it would be OK if he died >> while kayaking. He said, "No, I would feel horribly let down. I >> would feel that the place I love has turned against me." >> So, how would you feel? > > I believe that if you believe the sea loves you, you are on track > for a major attitude re-adjustment. Note that he said he loves the sea, he isn't under any illusion that the feeling is mutual. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > On Mar 15, 2007, at 5:25 PM, Steve Cramer wrote: > >> Nick Schade wrote: >> >>> I had a discussion once with a friend of mine who is known to take >>> some risks on the water. I asked him if it would be OK if he died >>> while kayaking. He said, "No, I would feel horribly let down. I >>> would feel that the place I love has turned against me." >>> So, how would you feel? >> >> >> I believe that if you believe the sea loves you, you are on track >> for a major attitude re-adjustment. > > > Note that he said he loves the sea, he isn't under any illusion that > the feeling is mutual. How about this.... Anyone that thinks their love of the sea will be returned, is on track for a major attitude re-adjustment. In answer to the original question... I wouldn't feel anything. I'd be dead. Though I understand the need by some for the sentiment, I've never been comfortable with "at least he/she died doing what he/she enjoyed." I would never feel comfortable using this conflicted observation. But consider me satisfied if I died doing what I love doing provided I at least attained the grand old age of say... 95 :-) Cheers, Jackie (not ready for prime time) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > On Mar 15, 2007, at 5:25 PM, Steve Cramer wrote: > >> Nick Schade wrote: >>> I had a discussion once with a friend of mine who is known to take >>> some risks on the water. I asked him if it would be OK if he died >>> while kayaking. He said, "No, I would feel horribly let down. I would >>> feel that the place I love has turned against me." >>> So, how would you feel? >> >> I believe that if you believe the sea loves you, you are on track for >> a major attitude re-adjustment. > > Note that he said he loves the sea, he isn't under any illusion that the > feeling is mutual. Right, good point. But he would seem to feel betrayed-- "the place I love has turned against me". No, actually, it never knew you were there. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/15/2007 5:07:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes: On Mar 15, 2007, at 4:38 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > I was very saddened to hear about the loss of Steve's friend. The > only solace is he died doing an activity he obviously enjoyed... I had a discussion once with a friend of mine who is known to take some risks on the water. I asked him if it would be OK if he died while kayaking. He said, "No, I would feel horribly let down. I would feel that the place I love has turned against me." So, how would you feel? Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 I think each of us would have different perspectives. I would prefer dying in a kayak to going out at the hands of a criminal or a car wreck if I had a choice in the matter. There is no good way to die, but some are worse than others. Chuck Chuck Chambers Chambers Investigations 606 49th St W Bradenton Florida 34209 Ph. 941-798-3804 Fax 941-798-3804 Fla. Lic# A-0001959 _WWW.ChambersAgency.com_ (http://www.chambersagency.com/) ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick posted: > On Mar 15, 2007, at 4:38 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > >> I was very saddened to hear about the loss of Steve's friend. The only >> solace is he died doing an activity he obviously enjoyed... > > I had a discussion once with a friend of mine who is known to take some > risks on the water. I asked him if it would be OK if he died while > kayaking. He said, "No, I would feel horribly let down. I would feel that > the place I love has turned against me." > > So, how would you feel? > Nick Schade Guess I wouldn't be there to feel anything, once dead that is. If I could, I'd be upset that I wouldn't be around to enjoy more storms and live to paddle another day. Of course, long-time paddlers who know the sea well, usually have undergone a reality check in this department. Or were you asking how I'd feel if a risk-taking friend responded to me as they did to you? Then I'd reply to them, don't take the risk if you are not okay with the prospect of dying from engagement in the activity you claim to love. I've seen grown men scream, then cry, then scream again against the rage. Ocean rage on some days, that's just what they do. So, I do know from the few times where I've wet exited and either lost my boat far from shore or was in cold water long enough to significantly loose dexterity and then increasingly question re-entry possibility, that the anxiety over one's young family can be despairingly desperate as things head more south. I don't image too many people have had to go through that. I know paddlers who stopped certain activities after having undergone these types of experiences. I have such a safety arsenal that I never give up total hope in these situations, rather preferring to persuade myself that I will accomplish a resolve with military-like determination based on my hierarchy of self-trained practice: a do-or-I-will-die attitude to match the do or die attitude that got me into trouble in the first place. I'll probably die in a heart ward one day, in congestive heart failure or some such thing. The physician may lean over to the most mature looking relative and tell them to have the whole family say goodbye in an orderly fashion, the end being near, just prior to giving me a "little extra" morphine -- if you know what I mean. Right now, looking ahead to that kind of possibility, I'm thinking I'd rather die in a storm having fun, "doing what I loved best." However, surrounded by children and grandchildren in hospital or hospice is probably as it should be where one can be with family, even with the finality, expressing gratitude for a life well lived. So, other than dieing in one's sleep or sudden accident I guess...you make your choices and takes your chances. To be an old and bold paddler (my goal in life), I'll take my queue from Chuck Sutherland in part: wear adequate immersion apparel and a PFD. Most boating fatalities in BC are due to precisely those deficiencies. On a very personal note, my wife Yvonne was crying the other day. She wants a break from all the excitement - probably a post-traumatic response to all the hospitalization and more recently, endless post-operative ER visits. She exasperatedly said to me, please Doug, our family has had enough of the flesh eating diseases, heart procedures, fibrillation episodes, open heart surgery marathons, and her own fights with cancer. She interestingly ended her list with "and close calls at sea and Coast Guard rescues." Gulp! Doug Lloyd Victoria, BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd said: > She exasperatedly > said to me, please Doug, our family has had enough of the > flesh eating diseases, heart procedures, fibrillation > episodes, open heart surgery marathons, and her own fights > with cancer. She interestingly ended her list with "and close > calls at sea and Coast Guard rescues." Gulp! When I returned from the hospital last Sunday after hearing the doctor pronounce my friend dead, my wife asked me to promise never to paddle solo again. We got into a heated discussion about it when she finally said to me. "If you care at all about me, you won't paddle alone---and if you don't, I'm going to take a chain saw to all of your boats. T-his afternoon immediately after the funeral was over and we had all taken turns putting dirt on top of the coffin, she said to me, that I know how she feels but she will not hold me to my promise and that I could paddle when and where I want. I think I'll be paddling with at least one friend from now on. Steve Holtzman Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Holtzman wrote: > When I returned from the hospital last Sunday after hearing the doctor > pronounce my friend dead, my wife asked me to promise never to paddle solo > again. We got into a heated discussion about it when she finally said to me. > "If you care at all about me, you won't paddle alone---and if you don't, I'm > going to take a chain saw to all of your boats." > > T-his afternoon immediately after the funeral was over and we had all taken > turns putting dirt on top of the coffin, she said to me, that I know how she > feels but she will not hold me to my promise and that I could paddle when > and where I want. > > I think I'll be paddling with at least one friend from now on. Also a sometime solo paddler, albeit in waters very benign. And, I've never had a reaction like that from my long-time fiancee. Early on, she reversed her stance on wearing the farmer john on cold water, and began to wear one ... not so much for her own safety, but more because she felt if she continued without, she might endanger me, as I tried to keep her from becoming hypothermic if she were to go into our cold water. Lyle Lovett said, in one of his compositions, "If I were the man you wanted, I would not be the man that I am." Seems like it might apply here. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Nick Schade wrote: >>> I had a discussion once with a friend of mine who is known to take some >>> risks on the water. I asked him if it would be OK if he died while >>> kayaking. He said, "No, I would feel horribly let down. I would feel >>> that the place I love has turned against me." >>> So, how would you feel? >> >> I believe that if you believe the sea loves you, you are on track for a >> major attitude re-adjustment. > > Note that he said he loves the sea, he isn't under any illusion that the > feeling is mutual. I suspect that in spite of the fear of the end, as it were, and some anger, I might feel shame. For allowing myself to be snuck up on and run over by that unbelievably giant hurtling bus that I see in the sea, along with the beauty. Because I am firmly committed to keeping and eye on that bus, and not getting in front of it. And possibly for putting loved ones in the position to reconcile inside themselves some kind of acceptance for what happened. Everyone passes, but I think it comes down to the ones who will mourn your passing - if they understand and approve of a risk that you choose, then maybe going out that way could be easier to accept than some others. Now, if nobody is going to mourn your passing, then the door's wide open, so to speak, to dance with the bus as you see fit. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Some additional information I've heard about Len's death which hasn't been reported here yet: His paddle was found tethered to the boat with *an inflated paddlefloat attached to it.* Whatever happened out there, he didn't just suddenly die of a heart attack. That doesn't exclude the possibility of a heart attack, but if so, it didn't completely incapacitate him. Another paddler or even the ability to call the Coast Guard might have made a difference. The estimated time of death (by "drowning") was between 0900 and 1300. He was found at 1500. His wetsuit was not in very good condition, being somewhat loose and partially torn, and he didn't have much body fat. Apparently he last participated in a rescue class two years ago, and then only in the first half of the class, having become too cold to continue in the water. He did not participate in the re-entry and rescue practice many of his paddling partners did once a month due to the cold. He could not roll. He probably had a cell phone with him, but it was never found. It may have been in a dry bag in the cockpit, and may have been lost in a capsize - but no one knows. This tends to point to a scenario of an unexpected capsize and failure to self-rescue with a paddlefloat for unknown reasons. The wind was apparently blowing hard, so it is possible that he became separated from his boat. With no boat or ability to communicate, the quality of his wetsuit may not have made any difference. Alternatively, he may have stayed with the boat but still been unable to self-rescue, and was parted with the boat when he was no longer able to hang on to it. Either case sounds very tragic. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for that update Bob. Helps shed some new light. I know a number of paddlers in Victoria who would fit this profile; however, these guys tend to paddle together. I'm sure no one likes been written up, nor perhaps their remaining family/friends seeing someone's mistakes and subsequent lessons learned (even if for the benefit of others), but I do think maybe someone down there should think about contacting Seakayaker Magazine for a safety article. It might make more people think about the tragic consequences of some of the choices we make. Bob posted: > Some additional information I've heard about Len's death which hasn't been > reported here yet: Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > Thanks for that update Bob. Helps shed some new light. > > I know a number of paddlers in Victoria who would fit this profile; > however, these guys tend to paddle together. > > I'm sure no one likes been written up, nor perhaps their remaining > family/friends seeing someone's mistakes and subsequent lessons > learned (even if for the benefit of others), but I do think maybe > someone down there should think about contacting Seakayaker Magazine > for a safety article. It might make more people think about the tragic > consequences of some of the choices we make. Though I only met him once and didn't know him well, I would think that Len, as the leader of California Kayaking Friends, would have understood the need or desire by others in the community to look for answers or solutions so that others might avoid a similar tragedy. I hope Seakayaker picks it up. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Some additional information I've heard about Len's death which hasn't been reported here yet: His paddle was found tethered to the boat with *an inflated paddlefloat attached to it.* Whatever happened out there, he didn't just suddenly die of a heart attack. That doesn't exclude the possibility of a heart attack, but if so, it didn't completely incapacitate him. Another paddler or even the ability to call the Coast Guard might have made a difference. The estimated time of death (by "drowning") was between 0900 and 1300. He was found at 1500. His wetsuit was not in very good condition, being somewhat loose and partially torn, and he didn't have much body fat. Apparently he last participated in a rescue class two years ago, and then only in the first half of the class, having become too cold to continue in the water. He did not participate in the re-entry and rescue practice many of his paddling partners did once a month due to the cold. He could not roll. He probably had a cell phone with him, but it was never found. It may have been in a dry bag in the cockpit, and may have been lost in a capsize - but no one knows. This tends to point to a scenario of an unexpected capsize and failure to self-rescue with a paddlefloat for unknown reasons. The wind was apparently blowing hard, so it is possible that he became separated from his boat. With no boat or ability to communicate, the quality of his wetsuit may not have made any difference. Alternatively, he may have stayed with the boat but still been unable to self-rescue, and was parted with the boat when he was no longer able to hang on to it. Either case sounds very tragic. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A friend and I will be writing something that we will submit to Seakayaker. We were both good friends of Len's and we're involved with the CG, hospital, and family the day he died. Steve Holtzman Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/15/2007 2:07:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com writes: I had a discussion once with a friend of mine who is known to take some risks on the water. I asked him if it would be OK if he died while kayaking. He said, "No, I would feel horribly let down. I would feel that the place I love has turned against me." So, how would you feel? Having just returned from a 9 day bushwack across the Talamanca range in Costa Rica, the idea of dying *doing something I love* or *living life to the fullest* was a thought to me for the past several months both in the planning and the doing. I went anyway, but I got scared a few times, like when I stepped just over the Fer de Lance. A Tico biologist, a few hours ahead of the us on the trail had his pant leg struck by a Bushmaster. These incidents were at minimum 3 days from the nearest indian village. Our guide carried anti-venin, but that is at best a 50-50 deal, complications setting in could send you down the trail for good. Toast. I wouldn't feel very good about lying on a ridge top, after the guide, raised since birth in the area, went on a high speed run down to the nearest radio, putting himself at risk. Could a helo even locate us through the layers of canopy? I would have cursed myself as stupid for the thought of going there, but I went anyway and was extremely careful. Not careful enough as one of *them* got a little to close to me. On a more mundane level, I slid, fell, tripped enough times on the journey to have qualified for a broken leg or ankle. A very uncomfortable rescue situation to say the least. And, more folks putting themselves at risk, all for me. Dying on the water? I take as many precautions as I possibly can and it could still happen. I take that thought on the water-or wherever I go-whenever I go. I'm pretty sure I'll never die of boredom, however, I like the other ways even less, so maybe I'll just start buying kayak or base jumping videos, a can of Pringles and a case of Guiness and really start living. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am not sure that I would have much feeling left about it at all. Dead is dead and when it is your time to be called away there is not much you can do about it. Is Kayaking worth the risk of death? I have never been on trips that were that dangerous. The most significant hazard that I have encountered is lightning. An ocean paddle done right with buddies, however, does not present that great of a risk over much else? Right? There is probably more danger in driving to the put in place. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:43 PDT