I've sent the following to Paddlewise and a modied version to Sea Kayaker Magazine's community on-line forum after careful consideration of PFD discussions and my own preparation for spring paddling. I usually don't duplicate messages, but felt this time could be an exception: I looked forward to Chris's Cunningham's April 2007 editorial. He wrote some time ago about his own experience with a close-at-hand item that if hadn't been there, he surly would have wished it was. This of course, is the basic premise with respect to at least certain selected item of safety gear. Excuse me if I come across as somewhat passionate about safety gear. I've been involved with Canadian Coast Guard/ combined military rescues at sea over three decades of paddling, in situations where personal floatation, day and night visibility, signaling and communication ability have saved lives. My priorities with a PFD include wearing the PFD in the first place. Obvious? You would be surprised at some of the rationale paddlers have for not wearing one, but I will always defer to a person's freedom of choice. Also obvious is making sure the biggest item in the PFD, namely the actual paddler is dressed for immersion and up to the physical demands of the trip or outing and operating within appropriate skill levels -- and that a known mental inventory with respect to navigation, topography, sea state variability and egress points is realized. There should be a backup plan for every decision carried through. This has to come first, before safety gear considerations. I'd also highly suggest paddles research or even take the time to enroll in a VHF radio protocol course if offered (often club organized), hypothermia workshops, preliminary lifeguard training (which always include first aid training), and take part in a wilderness survival course. At least consider these options. What an individual paddler includes within the context of carried PFD items is highly personal and can be subject to where the paddling takes place and often local paddling community ethics. Both risk assessment and the corresponding gear carried is hopefully informed by objective thinking. There are inexperienced paddlers who carry an abundance of gear who have given no consideration to the matters mentioned above, and conversely, expedition paddlers who carry a minimum of gear -- often including SOF aficionados. And there are examples of advanced expedition paddlers who have had to rely on their safety gear. It is also true that intermediate paddlers often carry only a few rudimentary items that probably should be augmented, just as there are advanced paddlers who carry a fair bit of safety and survival gear on their PFD. There are no absolutes; only individual choice and hopefully common sense. Having given up on wearing a PFD myself in exchange for the freedom of an approved inflatable vest, some of my own safety and survival gear resides in two add-on pockets attached to the sides of the main belt and a modified upper back pocket. Some items are individually tethered inside the pockets, none long enough to reach beyond chest level. While the tethered out-of-production SeaSeat in the rear pocket that facilitates increased survival time at sea is of no relevance to this discussion given it is no longer in production, if you do become separated from your kayak, you ought to place some serious thought into how you are going to summon help and survive until that help arrives. Even along remote coastline with no immediate safety net, corridors of marine travel and aviation routes may exist. Suffering the immediate consequences of poor judgment is also within the framework of personal freedom. I also run a quick- releasable tether off my vest's belt to the kayak that can be attached if I so wish. My main priority if I do bail out in bad seas, is how good are my real-world, cold-water re-entry skills, and will I have the dexterity to re-enter effectively. To that end, I carry a redundant neoprene hood and gloves in one of the pockets, along with a one-hand release rescue knife in a specialized, flapped compartment. In the other pocket I carry 3 small aerial flares wrapped in plastic, a smoke flare, signal mirror, diver's flashlight, fire-starting apparatus and a VHF radio. Know the local VHF chat channel and have the radio set to high output. On the back of my vest is a strobe light that has an additional bottom-mounted flashlight, the latter a redundancy. A ball-free whistle is attached to the front zipper, as is a small one-hand opening, redundant rescue knife. All items are rescue-tested in actual sea conditions, both for accessibility, plausibility of use, and must not hinder demonstrable re-entry methods. I could replace the emergency SeaSeat cushion in the back of my vest with an actual hydration bladder which is what the pouch was designed for, but having used the survival seat in a real emergency; its worth is invaluable to me. More relevant to a possible boat-less, vest/PFD worn, land-based survival scenario, would be the inclusion of a tightly-packed, item-rich wilderness survival kit as some paddlers like to carry. But my kayak in my lifeline, so most other survival gear is stored onboard or accessible from the cockpit. Knowledge of local and destination small boating regulations as pertains to safety gear is also advisable. If possible, try to carry some of these items in or on your PFD. There are gear vests that can be worn over a more featureless PFD. Again, safety gear doesn't make you safe. After careful consideration of both Paddlewise discussions and Sea Kayaker's new newsletter and thier fairly new on-line forum, including the latest editorial content, I've added an identification tag to my vest and ordered a Rescue Streamer from Rescue Technologies based in Hawaii (the Survivor II model, with belt pouch). I have no financial connection to this company. Additionally, especially now that marine-use regulatory decisions regarding personal locators have been ironed out, I'll be shopping for a compact model before resuming expedition paddling. I will have to downsize my bulky VHF radio to make room. http://www.rescuestreamer.com/ It was nice to see Chris Cunnigham mention Paddlewise in his PFD editorial, as well as see a picture by Mark, of Duane doing his surf antics on the last-glance page. Paddlers should be a community of friends Safe paddling, Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, I look forward to your steady progress in the coming days and weeks. In regard to your PFD question, my list of essentials is as follows: Guiding philosophy: things to communicate, fix folks, boats or stuff on the body. PFD "Instant Solutions Pack" small roll top Ortlieb that fits in Kokatat middle pocket Compression bandage for stopping bleeding (2" by 2 foot ace bandage) 2-3 water proof band aids H2O proof match cylinder with Tums and ginger tabs (3 on water seasick saves) Pencil flares launcher and 3 flares in plastic bag Flat plastic tab with 2' of duck tape wound around it 2 ea 4x6 patches of gutter seam tape to fix boats film can with 2 part epoxy putty 2 ea zip ties Other PFD essentials Lendal key Greatland Laser Whistle Hiking compass Sunscreen Lip balm 3 power bars Shoulder strobe Blade for cutting Grease pencil for nav 1 watt led Princeton tech flashlight Mirror Kestrel anemometer Watch with barometer Paddle leash quick releasable on either end Kokatat back pack, size small 1 liter of water, usually conserved toward the end of the day or when the water is rough VHF in watertight bag 15 feet of line with a snaphook on one end and a mid size bowline on the other for tow line lengthening The PFD is a Kokatat misfit with reflective tape on edges. I wear a self made waist mounted tow line with 45 feet of floating line daisy chained down to 18 feet. Works for me, Rob G ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob, I like your list. I have a watch-styled compass I wear instead of another PFD item. Other than that, many of the items you carry on your PFD would render my inflatable vest too bulky/heavy, defeating the purpose. I do carry most of the items you carry that are not on my own PFD, but keep them in the foredeck's "daylocker." I do have a flare pocket on my drysuit I use for extra flares. If I only had my bare PFD (no SeaSeat), paddling attire, and say the PFD was under my bungee cords and had nothing else other than body, boat and blade (and skirt), I'd still pursue the sport and specifically the kind of waters I enjoy. For surf kayaking, I usually wear my old PFD with a Sea Seat in the back pocket, and that's it. Your inclusion of accessible water, relatively hands free, for deteriorating conditions is not something to overlook (mines in a net bag on the back deck with a flow tube/bite valve to me). I guess when it comes to PFD pockets, it's a llitle like "build it and they will come." Or in this case, give 'em pockets, and they will fill them. That's okay though - at least you are thinking about the other guy as well as yourself, with your PFD carried items. You had said (snip list): Guiding philosophy: things to communicate, fix folks, boats or stuff on the body. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob, I'm not trying to be a SA but does your PFD float with all that stuff attached to it? -mike > > PFD "Instant Solutions Pack" small roll top Ortlieb that fits in Kokatat > middle pocket > Compression bandage for stopping bleeding (2" by 2 foot ace bandage) > 2-3 water proof band aids > H2O proof match cylinder with Tums and ginger tabs (3 on water seasick > saves) > Pencil flares launcher and 3 flares in plastic bag > Flat plastic tab with 2' of duck tape wound around it > 2 ea 4x6 patches of gutter seam tape to fix boats > film can with 2 part epoxy putty > 2 ea zip ties > Other PFD essentials > Lendal key > Greatland Laser > Whistle > Hiking compass > Sunscreen > Lip balm > 3 power bars > Shoulder strobe > Blade for cutting > Grease pencil for nav > 1 watt led Princeton tech flashlight > Mirror > Kestrel anemometer > Watch with barometer > Paddle leash quick releasable on either end > Kokatat back pack, size small > 1 liter of water, usually conserved toward the end of the day or when the > water is rough > VHF in watertight bag > 15 feet of line with a snaphook on one end and a mid size bowline on the > other for tow line lengthening > The PFD is a Kokatat misfit with reflective tape on edges. I wear a self > made waist mounted tow line with 45 feet of floating line daisy chained > down to > 18 feet. > Works for me, > Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I get the idea about "If it's not on your body when you bail out, you don't have it," but maybe you could save a couple of ounces here? >> 2 ea 4x6 patches of gutter seam tape to fix boats Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/18/2007 7:09:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mdziobak_at_mtu.edu writes: Rob, I'm not trying to be a SA but does your PFD float with all that stuff attached to it? -mike Mike, It floats just fine. Think about it, what does a bandaid weigh? The heaviest item is the liter of water that weighs 2 pounds, followed by the 1 pound radio. Many of my friends carry a hydration pack with 2 liters of water that weighs more than my whole PFD kit in the first place. Everything else is is a pretty thin dime. As Doug points out: *I guess when it comes to PFD pockets, it's a llitle like "build it and they will come." Or in this case, give 'em pockets, and they will fill them. That's okay though - at least you are thinking about the other guy as well as yourself, with your PFD carried items.* That is largely my point. My PFD kit accomodates others and their philosophies without anyone really knowing or caring or debating. No one complained when they took the Tums on the water and their seasickness eased. Nor did the group have to deal with the impending train wreck as a result of not addressing initially minor discomforts. An anti gear philosophy cannot adjudicate well for that. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One thing about carrying water in your PFD (I carry 1-2 liter in my PFD back pocket): No matter how much you carry, it still has neutral buoyancy! Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just cramming your kayak and PFD with safety/survival/rescue gear obviously isn't the answer. The real answer begins with a logical and suitable question. What is your guiding philosophy? That's always an excellent, preliminary question to ask. You stated your guiding philosophy as: "things to communicate, fix folks, boats or stuff on the body". This means you have actually thought through your choices and equipped accordingly. My philosophy is getting back in my boat, so what will help most, and with backup if I don't achieve that objective. John Winters said their is no panacea to ignorance. He's correct. But there is preparedness. That is as close to a panacea as I know for being out in a capricious water environment. Preparedness, of course, including so much more than just equipment. For long paddles in rough water, I'll take the water and Tums any day over the other gear. :-) Doug > Rob, > I'm not trying to be a SA but does your PFD float with all that stuff > attached to it? > -mike > > > > Mike, > > It floats just fine. Think about it, what does a bandaid weigh? The > heaviest > item is the liter of water that weighs 2 pounds, followed by the 1 pound > radio. Many of my friends carry a hydration pack with 2 liters of water > that > weighs more than my whole PFD kit in the first place. Everything else is > is a > pretty thin dime. As Doug points out: > > *I guess when it comes to PFD pockets, it's a llitle like "build it and > they > will come." Or in this case, give 'em pockets, and they will fill them. > That's > okay though - at least you are thinking about the other guy as well as > yourself, with your PFD carried items.* > > That is largely my point. My PFD kit accomodates others and their > philosophies without anyone really knowing or caring or debating. No one > complained > when they took the Tums on the water and their seasickness eased. Nor did > the > group have to deal with the impending train wreck as a result of not > addressing > initially minor discomforts. An anti gear philosophy cannot adjudicate > well > for that. > > Cheers, > > Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob wrote: > Mike, > > It floats just fine. Think about it, what does a bandaid weigh? The > heaviest > item is the liter of water that weighs 2 pounds, followed by the 1 pound > radio. Many of my friends carry a hydration pack with 2 liters of water > that > weighs more than my whole PFD kit in the first place. Everything else is I guess my point is 3-4 lbs in my PFD is way too much discomfort for me while puting in a typical 30-40 nautical mile day on long trips or even a hot summer day trip. I'm not sure what my PFD safety kit (VHF, knife,compass/thermometer, flares, mirror, anti seasickness pills, strobe) weighs but even this minimal kit is a noticable drag on my torso/shoulders when paddling and I'm less and less inclinded to wear it especially if the conditions are calm. I know it is much safer to have the PFD on at all times but as my skill level increases and as air temps seem to be going higher and higher, it's just more comfortable to stow the PFD in certain conditions. -mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike - i understand your thoughts and feelings as the temp rises the traditional PFD does get warmer...which is exactly why i like it so much in the winter. When i was paddling down in the south waters of Texas and Louisiana some folks there paddled wearing the inflatable type of PFD. Turns out to be the same type i use for sailing. Except the sailing is self-inflating and the kayak style is manual inflating. May be an option to consider as the weather warms. Both styles can be inflated by mouth. There may be other "hybred" PFD's out there that may offer a combination low profile, basic flotation and augmentated by CO2 flotation or by mouth. Be safe. john Santa Rosa, CA mike dziobak <mdziobak_at_mtu.edu> wrote: Rob wrote: > Mike, > > It floats just fine. Think about it, what does a bandaid weigh? The > heaviest > item is the liter of water that weighs 2 pounds, followed by the 1 pound > radio. Many of my friends carry a hydration pack with 2 liters of water > that > weighs more than my whole PFD kit in the first place. Everything else is I guess my point is 3-4 lbs in my PFD is way too much discomfort for me while puting in a typical 30-40 nautical mile day on long trips or even a hot summer day trip. I'm not sure what my PFD safety kit (VHF, knife,compass/thermometer, flares, mirror, anti seasickness pills, strobe) weighs but even this minimal kit is a noticable drag on my torso/shoulders when paddling and I'm less and less inclinded to wear it especially if the conditions are calm. I know it is much safer to have the PFD on at all times but as my skill level increases and as air temps seem to be going higher and higher, it's just more comfortable to stow the PFD in certain conditions. -mike --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 20/3/07 14:04, John Horrell at seajohnkayak_at_yahoo.com wrote: . Except the sailing is > self-inflating and the kayak style is manual inflating. Last year I was coaching a paddler who wore an inflatable PFD. She told me it was self-inflating, a claim I, being the all-knowing instructor, corrected, pointing out that those used for paddling had a manual inflating tab. She had been paddling for several years, but had never capsized or done a wet exit, something she wanted to try. I stood alongside for support as she took a deep breath, closed her eyes, and gently capsized. Suddenly there was a great flurry under the water as her, indeed self-inflating, PFD roared into life, after waiting dormant all these years. Far from it being a smooth wet exit it became a panicked struggle, as she was hauled to the surface, twisted half out of the cockpit. I learnt a couple of lessons that day. Learning to listen was one of them. Cheers JKA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Suddenly there was a great flurry under the water as her, indeed > self-inflating, PFD roared into life, after waiting dormant all these years. > > Far from it being a smooth wet exit it became a panicked struggle, as she > was hauled to the surface, twisted half out of the cockpit. > > I learnt a couple of lessons that day. > > Learning to listen was one of them. At the very nominal cost (CO2 cartridge) she has learnt her lesson too (hopefully) - why paddlers should not wear self-inflating vests :-) ... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
All, 2 pounds of sundries from lip balm to a fixed blade and all the assorted bits mentioned before, minus a liter of water. 4 pounds probably on launch all total. Coming late to the PFD mounted hydration party, and, only halfway, 1 liter as opposed to mostly 2 liter kits out there, I am sympathetic to the arguments of rotation. But I'm not a member of US Surf Ski Association or Sound Rowers so I probably can't keep up with you in my Romany anyway. I have, however, put many long days in similarly attired and won't complain about it. Should you choose to forego a PFD for whatever reason, I hope it is a good one, but you are perfectly in your rights to do so. I rarely make that decision, but have done so with what I felt were better reasons to do so than keeping it on. I hope the traditions of freedom to choose remain as such in this country, but I am wary. The inestimable Steve Cramer wrote:I get the idea about "If it's not on your body when you bail out, you don't have it," but maybe you could save a couple of ounces here? >> 2 ea 4x6 patches of gutter seam tape to fix boats The patches are nested within the little Ortlieb pack like the frame sheet of an internal framed backpack. They are super easy to retrieve, moreso than digging through my day hatch which is more and more in keeping with my junk drawer at home in philosophy. Shame on me. Please bear in mind, none of my attitudes are meant to be prescriptive. The sum total is what I have arrived at for what I do and have used and (unfortunately) what I wished I had at the time. Should you require only the PFD and your needs are met in some other way I'm all for that, too. Want to have fun? The Kestrel anemometer is completely disposable part of my PFD kit. My wrist watch barometer serves that function well, but the anemometer is great to hold up up in varying breezes asking people what the strength is. I have had 5 knots steady reported to me as 15 knots, 10 reported as 20, just as often as someone nailing it without a confirming glance from me. Now you won't deny me that will you? Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: mdziobak_at_mtu.edu To: Rcgibbert_at_aol.com Cc: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Sent: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] What's in the PFD? Rob wrote: > Mike, > > It floats just fine. Think about it, what does a bandaid weigh? The > heaviest > item is the liter of water that weighs 2 pounds, followed by the 1 pound > radio. Many of my friends carry a hydration pack with 2 liters of water > that > weighs more than my whole PFD kit in the first place. Everything else is I guess my point is 3-4 lbs in my PFD is way too much discomfort for me while puting in a typical 30-40 nautical mile day on long trips or even a hot summer day trip. I'm not sure what my PFD safety kit (VHF, knife,compass/thermometer, flares, mirror, anti seasickness pills, strobe) weighs but even this minimal kit is a noticable drag on my torso/shoulders when paddling and I'm less and less inclinded to wear it especially if the conditions are calm. I know it is much safer to have the PFD on at all times but as my skill level increases and as air temps seem to be going higher and higher, it's just more comfortable to stow the PFD in certain conditions. -mike
Rob, You'll need more than a band-aid. Try this site: http://www.bailoutbags.com/index.html They even have a bail-out bag for your pooch. Not sure if it comes with doggie poop bags. :-) No affiliation. Doug Rob said (snip): > It floats just fine. Think about it, what does a bandaid weigh? The > heaviest > item is the liter of water that weighs 2 pounds, followed by the 1 pound > radio. Many of my friends carry a hydration pack with 2 liters of water > that > weighs more than my whole PFD kit in the first place. Everything else is > is a > pretty thin dime. As Doug points out: *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>I know it is much safer to have the PFD on at all times but as my skill level increases and as air temps seem to be going higher and higher, it's just more comfortable to stow the PFD in certain conditions. Whoa there Mike! Your perilously close to committing blasphemy on this list! Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 3/20/07, kiayker <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > >>I know it is much safer to have the PFD on at all > times but as my skill level increases and as air temps seem to be going > higher and higher, it's just more comfortable to stow the PFD in certain > conditions. > > Whoa there Mike! Your perilously close to committing blasphemy on this > list! I recognized the sarcasm <grin> but the key phrase is "in certain conditions" which I happen to think is reasonable. I suspect you do too. This is the crux of the issue, I think. Everyone has his-or-her idea of what conditions warrant which reaction. The USCG mandates that a PFD be carried but not worn except on children. Some states seem interested in adding to that for their own reasons. Absent a method of quantifying judgement, the easy way (the "paper solution") is just to mandate PFD wear for everyone all the time. Is this where we're headed? I really hope not. Wearing a PFD while paddling Puget Sound (where the air temperature rarely exceeds 65F) is one thing; wearing it while paddling the water off Corpus Christi, TX is quite another. The second instance might actually be life-threatening. Since we are never going to get 100% smart paddlers are we doomed to an ever-increasing load of legislation just to stop one or two (or six) bozos from killing themselves? All because politicians want to be seen "doing something" about the "problem"? The proliferation of kayak-fishermen is going to raise the bar dramatically on these issues, I think. The kayaks are much more stable than what most of us paddle but the skill level is dramatically lower. And the programs on cable featuring kayak-fishing often show the participants paddling around reefs and near serious surge while they lay their paddles down and concentrate on reeling in dinner. This can be scary stuff. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > Wearing a PFD while paddling > Puget Sound (where the air temperature rarely exceeds 65F) is one thing; > wearing it while paddling the water off Corpus Christi, TX is quite another. > The second instance might actually be life-threatening. Oh, please. I understand that you NW types think it's a heat wave when the temps get to 75, but really now. I've been paddling in Georgia for 20 years, summer water temps in the 80's, air temps in the 90's or more, always wearing a PFD, always with people wearing PFDs. In that time I have seen one, count 'em, one person who appeared to be having problems related to heat. That's just not a very good excuse. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That's why I like my inflatable vest - doesn't feel like I'm wearing a PFD, and even with the extra weight of some added gear, there is so much more buoyancy when inflated, it floats higher and better than any none loaded regular PFD. The hybrid PFD is probably a better all-around performer though for comfort and available, uninflated safety. I used to play the PFD-on-deck game for years on the open coast, even extending this game in concert with my advanced paddler friends when we agreed to proceed PFD-less on hot days (yes, we would raft up to discuss this). These guys were perhaps more anal than the safety conscious guys on Paddlewise. Yet, wind and waves would suddenly whip up, conditions would change dramatically around headlands or where currents met waves/swell head on, and winds would spill in and out of fiord inlets more than anticipated. Eventually, it was easier just to wear the damn PFDs all the time. I think it was Paul Cafynn who went around Australia, his PFD in a net bag most of the time. Yeah, he survived fine, I know. People do and don't die with their PFDs on; they do and don't die with them off. Nothing new there. I think for group paddles, wearing your PFD sends out a good safety message to especially what may be impressionable new paddlers along for the trip. In small groups with friends, or when on your own, there seems a little more of a relaxed attitude to simply just keeping your PFD's handy, but not actually wearing it on hot, calm days - at least in my neck of the woods. But hey, it's everyone's own "neck." So what's wrong with trying to maintain a good safety message anyway? Or is it just the dogmatic way some posters present themselves? Doug Lloyd Victoria BC >>>I know it is much safer to have the PFD on at all > times but as my skill level increases and as air temps seem to be going > higher and higher, it's just more comfortable to stow the PFD in certain > conditions. > > Whoa there Mike! Your perilously close to committing blasphemy on this > list! > > Scott > So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > So what's wrong with trying to maintain a good safety message anyway? Or > is it just the dogmatic way some posters present themselves? Nothing. Problem is that the message varies with conditions, environments, and the paddler. Guys like surfer Scott know when it is more dangerous to wear the PFD than not (big surf). Newbies do not, that's why wearing the PFD as a default choice should be out there as a fundamental tenet of beginning paddling on any water: wear the PFD so we can find your body more easily! Later, you can decide if the PFD is apropos. BTW, some of the inflatables I have seen in use have kinda cheesy methods of attachment to the body. In one self-rescue session on rough water, my rotund paddling partner had his so loosely attached it would not have given him any flotation. Queried why he wore it that way, he said, "It's more comfortable loose like this." Fortunately, he quit paddling five years ago. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/20/2007 9:21:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, douglloyd_at_shaw.ca writes: So what's wrong with trying to maintain a good safety message anyway? Or is it just the dogmatic way some posters present themselves? Nothing wrong and a whole lot right about it. I don't easily gall, but when paddlers start toying with the we'll make you do it through the law approach, I get galled. The government is an inexact science, to say the least. C'mon in Mr 800 pound Gorilla, would you like a cocktail? Cheers, Rob G ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug writes; >>So what's wrong with trying to maintain a good safety message anyway? Or is it just the dogmatic way some posters present themselves? There is nothing at all wrong with trying to maintain a good safety message. But what is it? I believe one of the essential elements to being a safe sea kayaker is the ability to make decisions based on whatever knowledge is available and weighed against an "honest" assessment of one's abilities. This is a skill, which just like any other skill, requires practice. What I see on the water today is a bunch of paddlers who are in denial about their actual paddling abilities, who then attempt to supplement those abilities (or lack thereof) with a pile of safety gear, and in an apparent attempt to appear as the experts they wannabe, then try to dictate just what equipment all those around them must have as well. So just what is the safety message here? Whether or not one wears a pfd, particularly on the more benign paddles, should be a matter of personal choice - as should be decklines, bow lines, vhf radios, you name it. One cannot learn to make decisions if they are not allowed choices. As I have said so many times before, I believe the actual effectiveness of a pfd in your typical sea kayaking scenario has been greatly over inflated anyway. Now you take those paddlers who have not learned to think for themselves because someone else who believes they are being a "responsible leader" has been doing all the thinking for them, and give them an exaggerated picture of the merits of their safety equipment then send them out on the water and what have got? An accident waiting to happen! Now you take the same person and give them some solid skills and the ability to think for themselves and what have you got? A roll model. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Doug writes; >> So what's wrong with trying to maintain a good safety >> message anyway? Or is it just the dogmatic way some >> posters present themselves? Scott replied: >What I see on the water today is a bunch of paddlers who are in > denial about their actual paddling abilities <snip rest of good comments> I've had similar discussions with paddling companions, with the conclusion being that until you see how someone performs in real life conditions, it's hard to tell the difference between someone who has, for example, 10 years paddling experience, or two years of paddling experience repeated 5 times. This presents a real challenge in a club setting where one has to qualify those interested in a particular trip, and the likely conditions to be encountered. Good judgement comes from experience, but it seems that some people never grasp the concept (or have the experience)....... Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This "experience" factor has come up on the list before. When I use the word "experienced paddler," I'm usually thinking of someone who has reached beyond intermediate skills (hard skills (craft dependant), soft skills, and applied judgment effectively proven in a variety of conditions). Very often the media refers to "an experienced paddler" when reporting an incident and that description is often suspect I think. In terms of club paddling scenarios, I agree; it is often difficult to differentiate another paddler's experience level, and often one's own too. That's why I like the default PFD should be worn rules many clubs implement, or at least promote. That way, at least we know everyone can float. For the general boating population, many drownings would probably be averted by wearing a PFD. I don't think Scott disagrees with that general observation. Paddlers usually can swim and make efforts that are reasonably effective to rescue themselves. I do understand Scott's perspective, and therefore his implied view that PFD's are overrated. Yes, they can be. By contextual definition, most untested hard skills and any given piece of safety gear can be overrated too. But there's a hierarchy of skill development. Paddlers would do well to learn to brace and roll, depending on the craft they paddle and waters traveled. Those who don't want to learn often use a paddlefloat as backup to a capsize. That doesn't make a new paddler who embarks on a trip with their new paddlefloat unsafe, does it? Well it can if the paddler has no understanding of how conditions might change, no bracing skills, and often less safe with no immersion apparel. Or as Scott says of the newbie paddler, their lack solid skills and the ability to think for themselves has been supplanted by rather being dependent on rescue gear, often promoted by trip leaders, etc. But are they any more unsafe than an experienced paddle who has never tested their trusty roll in combat conditions or their back up gear in real life scenarios? I don't think there are any absolute answers to these questions. Scott does make an extremely valid point about paddlers who are in denial about their actual paddling abilities. His best argument from my reading of his post rang true, that these same paddlers then attempt to supplement their lack of ability with a pile of safety gear. I'm not sure if they do this knowingly, or just simply make a lot of assumptions due to their lack of real experience. His next point was that they then try to dictate what equipment others must have. The later does sound deplorable. I just don't see that happening very often. Maybe I've missed the vibe. I do hear experienced paddlers continually recommending safety gear, as I tend to do, as do many well-intentioned safety reports and respected kayak-specific publications. But more often than not, there is usually a declaimer that safety gear doesn't make you safe. I always look for that message. Maybe the former message needs to be spelled out a little more clearly or the later given more emphasis. Anyway, Scott wrote clearly and succinctly, making his points logically and consistently. Teaching good judgment and promoting the derivable values of good judgment are something kayak writers and kayak coaches worldwide struggle to communicate effectively, often drowned out by the need to develop hard skills and teach the use of back-up gear. Good judgment is something that has to be applied by the actual individual paddler. I think Scott resonates that message in a forthright manner I just bought my daughters new bike helmets today - good quality ones. We even added identification/contact information made available by use of waterproof, stick-on pull tabs. This doesn't make them any safer as cyclists. I still need to teach them traffic and avoidance skills, and help "steer" them with the use of good judgment, both demonstrated while I ride and while I oversee them applying their own judgment as we venture further afield this summer. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC >> Doug writes; >>> So what's wrong with trying to maintain a good safety >>> message anyway? Or is it just the dogmatic way some >>> posters present themselves? > > Scott replied: > >What I see on the water today is a bunch of paddlers who are in >> denial about their actual paddling abilities > <snip rest of good comments> > > I've had similar discussions with paddling companions, with the conclusion > being that until you see how someone performs in real life conditions, > it's hard to tell the difference between someone who has, for example, 10 > years paddling experience, or two years of paddling experience repeated 5 > times. This presents a real challenge in a club setting where one has to > qualify those interested in a particular trip, and the likely conditions > to be encountered. > > Good judgement comes from experience, but it seems that some people never > grasp the concept (or have the experience)....... > > Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 3/20/07, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > > I don't think there are any absolute answers to these questions. Scott > does > make an extremely valid point about paddlers who are in denial about their > actual paddling abilities. His best argument from my reading of his post > rang true, that these same paddlers then attempt to supplement their lack > of > ability with a pile of safety gear. I'm not sure if they do this > knowingly, > or just simply make a lot of assumptions due to their lack of real > experience. His next point was that they then try to dictate what > equipment > others must have. The later does sound deplorable. I just don't see that > happening very often. Maybe I've missed the vibe. I do hear experienced > paddlers continually recommending safety gear, as I tend to do, as do many > well-intentioned safety reports and respected kayak-specific publications. > But more often than not, there is usually a declaimer that safety gear > doesn't make you safe. I always look for that message. Maybe the former > message needs to be spelled out a little more clearly or the later given > more emphasis. I would like to make a rather interesting point from my perspective as email list manager for the California Kayak Friends list. The California Kayak Friends is the club that Len Goodman was president of. The CKF mailing list is hosted on the same server as Paddlewise, by the way. In 2003, 4 years ago, Scott (yes, the same Scott) was removed from the CKF mailing list at Len Goodman's request after a similar discussion to this one where Scott made many of the same points and the discussion became somewhat heated. Yes, a to-wear-or-not-to-wear PFD discussion, where Scott was talking about equipment being no substitute for judgment. (While I do manage the CKF list, I generally follow the directions of the club president in making decisions like this, even though I've not always been comfortable with those decisions. This case bothered me partly because Scott was one of my first 2 kayak instructors when I was a newbie. In those days (1993) the CKF president was Joanne Turner, who also owned Southwind Kayak Center where Scott was teaching kayaking and I took my first lesson.) Anyway, it just strikes me as just a little bit ironic. I'm not really sure what it means, but I feel kind of funny about it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob, Scott and All, Gosh, I never imagined that local club (www.ckf.org) dirt would be posted on an international list like Paddlewise. But since the deed in done and Len isn't here to defend himself, I'll jump in here for a moment. I was involved in the discussions about whether to keep Scott on the club email list. Believe me, the issue wasn't about anyone's feelings about wearing PFDs. Instead, it was about excessive agitation making the club email list a negative environment, and that's putting it politely. A negative attitude towards the club wasn't appreciated either. In the end, I can't remember if Scott left on his own or actually was removed. That being said, I often enjoy Scott's emails and think he has a lot of offer. Finally, I'll just say it. Len blew it! With his skill level, he never should've been paddling along the coast solo. His mistakes reflect badly on the club. Duane www.rollordrown.com Southern California Bob Myers <qajaqbob_at_gmail.com> wrote: I would like to make a rather interesting point from my perspective as email list manager for the California Kayak Friends list. The California Kayak Friends is the club that Len Goodman was president of. The CKF mailing list is hosted on the same server as Paddlewise, by the way. In 2003, 4 years ago, Scott (yes, the same Scott) was removed from the CKF mailing list at Len Goodman's request after a similar discussion to this one where Scott made many of the same points and the discussion became somewhat heated. Yes, a to-wear-or-not-to-wear PFD discussion, where Scott was talking about equipment being no substitute for judgment. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 3/20/07, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > > I don't think there are any absolute answers to these questions. Scott > does > make an extremely valid point about paddlers who are in denial about their > actual paddling abilities. His best argument from my reading of his post > rang true, that these same paddlers then attempt to supplement their lack > of > ability with a pile of safety gear. I'm not sure if they do this > knowingly, > or just simply make a lot of assumptions due to their lack of real > experience. His next point was that they then try to dictate what > equipment > others must have. The later does sound deplorable. I just don't see that > happening very often. Maybe I've missed the vibe. I do hear experienced > paddlers continually recommending safety gear, as I tend to do, as do many > well-intentioned safety reports and respected kayak-specific publications. > But more often than not, there is usually a declaimer that safety gear > doesn't make you safe. I always look for that message. Maybe the former > message needs to be spelled out a little more clearly or the later given > more emphasis. I would like to make a rather interesting point from my perspective as email list manager for the California Kayak Friends list. The California Kayak Friends is the club that Len Goodman was president of. The CKF mailing list is hosted on the same server as Paddlewise, by the way. In 2003, 4 years ago, Scott (yes, the same Scott) was removed from the CKF mailing list at Len Goodman's request after a similar discussion to this one where Scott made many of the same points and the discussion became somewhat heated. Yes, a to-wear-or-not-to-wear PFD discussion, where Scott was talking about equipment being no substitute for judgment. (While I do manage the CKF list, I generally follow the directions of the club president in making decisions like this, even though I've not always been comfortable with those decisions. This case bothered me partly because Scott was one of my first 2 kayak instructors when I was a newbie. In those days (1993) the CKF president was Joanne Turner, who also owned Southwind Kayak Center where Scott was teaching kayaking and I took my first lesson.) Anyway, it just strikes me as just a little bit ironic. I'm not really sure what it means, but I feel kind of funny about it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>In 2003, 4 years ago, Scott (yes, the same Scott) was removed from the CKF mailing list at Len Goodman's request Actually, Bob, this is not how I remember it happening. Yes, I was involved in a somewhat similar "discussion" on the CKF list. At that time the list was pretty much dominated by a small handful of "buddies" who were using the list to publicly pat each other on the back and tell each other what great paddlers they each were. If anyone were to suggest otherwise these guys would gang up on them and run that person off the list, so most people were afraid to post anything which might be considered "controversial" - I wasn't. When I stepped on a couple of toes things got ugly to the point that I decided I did not need what they were preaching over there, and I left. I was removed from the list at my request. In fact I believe it was Len who contacted me later and asked me to come back, which I declined. I should also note the half dozen or so emails I received back channel at the time from members thanking me for standing up to "the gang." Not that any of this is pertinent to Paddlewise. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck you were out of line. Not for your opinion - you're entitled to that but then again, so is Scott. If we resort to ridicule of the "California" way or the "whitewater mentally" we will limit ideals and discussion. It is still the choice of the individual as to what is on the PFD. Phil Vancovuer, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 13:11, Bob Myers wrote: > In 2003, 4 years ago, Scott (yes, the same Scott) was removed from the > CKF mailing list at Len Goodman's request after a similar discussion to > this one where Scott made many of the same points and the discussion > became somewhat heated. Yes, a to-wear-or-not-to-wear PFD discussion, > where Scott was talking about equipment being no substitute for > judgment. Oh, oh, oh, my! It was my impression that Scott was a wee know-all laddie! Sorry, all! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 15:42, Eric wrote: > Good judgement comes from experience, but it seems that some people > never grasp the concept (or have the experience)....... This is a bit like driving: Some have to do the foolhardy things before they come to their senses, most progress, slowly but surely, till they can handle their car pretty well, but things can still happen that you're not prepared for, or can handle. Therefore active and passive safety features are good, but being a good driver, with luck on your side, you will make all the modern gadgets superfluous, even your seatbelt might not be tested ever! But just a little bad luck, some lack of attention, or another driver doing something that endangers you, and suddenly all those gadgets might have to work like mad to save your life. And possibly fail! The Citroen CV2, the classic 'Deaux Cheavux', is a nifty little car, that uses very little resources, is easy to repair (the entire body can easily be taken off, for instance). And lovely to drive at slow pace! But if something happens that involves you and your CV2 the chances that you'll get seriously hurt is bigger than for any other type of car, as it has very little safety, passive or active. A fenderbender, that on the other vehicle barely is visible afterwards, might easily be fatal to the CV 2 driver. The same is true for paddlers: if you are lucky, and up to date with your training (say, having the right basic skills and having trained rolling in the kayak you're paddling and within the last year, or so), and can handle the weather and wave conditions you might encounter there is little need for any extra safety gear. But freak things happens, like being run over by some weirdo on a jetski, or being hit by a motorboat, yacht, or ship. Your kayak might suddenly spring a leak in the middle of nowhere, or you might fall ill, or be under the influence, just so much that your abilities are degraded - what then? I know fully well that when our Klepper rolled, due to the combination of our waving with our paddles, the wind, the waves and a too high CG, my wife and I would have been very dead, hadn't we had some safety gear on us, and with us. The last of the Chillcheater stuff had arrived the day before, the Musto fleece hats, that we for some reason were wearing (I didn't wear mine, just 20 minutes earlier!). We had found those by chance in a boat shop a few weeks earlier - we normally never visits boat chandler's - but we had bought a typical, American, bilge pump made for canoes, in an outdoor shop, that sells everything from kayaks to tents. This pump proved to be far from capable to empty a semi-water-filled Klepper, even after 20 minutes of intensive pumping, while our present electric bilge pump with a hefty battery would have done that in 2-3 minutes. But the idea of installing an electric bilge pump had not even been considered, as we didn't know that anyone did use the in kayaks! When we eventually got it out of the water we very nearly broke it in two (the gunwale broke in a few places, but it was repairable), due to the 50-100 liters of water still in it. And the warf was over two meters high! Naturally, our warm clothes and the cellular had floated out of the half-water-filled Klepper, in under the wharf, as we hadn't yet learned that you need to secure things, always! Eventually we retrieved the dry bag, with the cellular, and then could call for help, which arrived an hour later. Since then we pack our essentials, like cellular, lighters, repair kit, VHF, flares and some other stuff in a yellow drybag on deck. To make it float well it is connected to a scrapped inflatable PFD, that activates if you pull it off the kayak. That way we get some extra flotation as well as a basic emergency kit, that will not sink! If we roll again, and the kayak floats away, we will at least have the basics for calling for help (we did have whistles the first time, which altered people on shore, but it was a 80+ years old fisherman that picked us up with his old boat). Technical equipment is fallable, man is fallable, and life is unpredictable. I think that one shall cover as many bases one can - by paddling as much as one is able, each year, and by bringing safety equipment suitable for the occasion. What is dangerous is relying on old skills, as it takes practice to keep them current, and that is true both for the handling of the vessel, the equipment and ourselves. Some things can be learned from books, but not much (do we all remember what the local emergency channel is - can it have been changed lately? When did you check the batteries in your VHF - how old are they? NiMHs and NiCads die before they get to be ten, no matter how little, or much, you use them! Is the VHF still water-proof? If not, you better do something about it! I almost forgot: How are you yourself doing? Have you got the stamina and strength to go through with what you've planned? Have you made a travel plan and told your friends when you'll be back, and what to do if you're not home at that and that time, et cetera. And yet, there is always something you forget to bring, to do, or to check, so bringing a little more than you probably need is wise, to bring a little less than you need can be troublesome, but only occasionally, fatal! G'night! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. 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In a message dated 3/21/2007 6:04:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cramersec_at_charter.net writes: Oh, please. I understand that you NW types think it's a heat wave when the temps get to 75, but really now. I've been paddling in Georgia for 20 years, summer water temps in the 80's, air temps in the 90's or more, always wearing a PFD, always with people wearing PFDs. In that time I have seen one, count 'em, one person who appeared to be having problems related to heat. That's just not a very good excuse. Steve, I respectfully disagree with this. A couple years back I posted a note on why I determined for myself that while paddling in the tropics we had foregone the use of PFD's because the risk (for us pesky northwest types) of heat stroke was greater than failed rolls, failed group cohesion for assisted rescues and so forth. We ran some pretty big water daily, with air temps in the mid to high nineties F and water temps in the mid to high 80's F. Wouldn't have changed a thing in retrospect. You replied back that if that really were a factor nobody in Alabama or Georgia would wear one either. There is such a thing as acclimitization. I hate name dropping, Derek, Nigel or Dowd aside, but Dowd did write, in the tropics (or wherever it is really hot) you might want to bring along a pair of fins in lieu of a PFD. In my latest adventure, I tried to keep up with a couple of indians in the Talamanca range. Once we got to lowland rainforest and the heat index really ratcheted up, despite a week of intense conditioning on the trail in high elevations, I sweated buckets and those guys didn't leak a drop. Now those guys are cool! Figuratively and literally. I have the highest respect and admiration for these guys. John Walden, who wrote Jungle Travel and Survival, writes that it really is a good idea to acclimate for several days in country prior to any significant exertion. We didn't have or take the time. I guess ambition takes its toll on itineraries. I hear an argument for inflatable PFD's coming. But you have to actually be c onscious or functional at least to activate. In the months I've spent in some of these places we couldn't even find a decent stove fuel besides the gas pump, let alone an air cartidge that fits those inflatables. Flying with one in 2007, the non-pepsi generation, is a no no. I'm with you and Chuck on PFD's right up to the point where you say it ought to be a law and/or I have to wear it everywhere. Sometimes the shoe don't always fit amigo, or make the most sense. Sometimes, reasoned decision making and a lengthy time spent training, etc., will just have to do in place of a knee jerk or paper solution. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I do remember the previous discussion, and i still think that wearing a PFD in hot weather (I was being conservative, Mark; I've paddled in 100+ weather, too) is not the life threatening thing that you make it out to be. If it were, the sport of WW paddling would not exist in the Southeast. Wear your PFD or don't, based on your own risk assessment. I just always wear mine; one less decision to have to make. I like people i paddle with to wear theirs, too, because it's a whole lot easier to rescue someone if they're not using all their energy to keep their nostrils above the water. But unless I'm "in charge", I'm not to OC about it. Somebody else made the accurate comment that people die with PFDs and without PFDs. It's clear that many have died because they were not wearing a PFD. I have not heard of a paddler dying because they were wearing one. YMMV. Steve Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/21/2007 6:04:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > cramersec_at_charter.net writes: > > Oh, please. I understand that you NW types think it's a heat wave when > the temps get to 75, but really now. I've been paddling in Georgia for > 20 years, summer water temps in the 80's, air temps in the 90's or > more, > always wearing a PFD, always with people wearing PFDs. In that time I > have seen one, count 'em, one person who appeared to be having problems > related to heat. That's just not a very good excuse. > > Steve, > > I respectfully disagree with this. A couple years back I posted a note > on why I determined for myself that while paddling in the tropics we had > foregone the use of PFD's because the risk (for us pesky northwest > types) of heat stroke was greater than failed rolls, failed group > cohesion for assisted rescues and so forth. We ran some pretty big water > daily, with air temps in the mid to high nineties F and water temps in > the mid to high 80's F. Wouldn't have changed a thing in retrospect. You > replied back that if that really were a factor nobody in Alabama or > Georgia would wear one either. There is such a thing as acclimitization. > I hate name dropping, Derek, Nigel or Dowd aside, but Dowd did write, in > the tropics (or wherever it is really hot) you might want to bring along > a pair of fins in lieu of a PFD. > > In my latest adventure, I tried to keep up with a couple of indians in > the Talamanca range. Once we got to lowland rainforest and the heat > index really ratcheted up, despite a week of intense conditioning on the > trail in high elevations, I sweated buckets and those guys didn't leak a > drop. Now those guys are cool! Figuratively and literally. I have the > highest respect and admiration for these guys. > > John Walden, who wrote Jungle Travel and Survival, writes that it really > is a good idea to acclimate for several days in country prior to any > significant exertion. We didn't have or take the time. I guess ambition > takes its toll on itineraries. > > I hear an argument for inflatable PFD's coming. But you have to actually > be conscious or functional at least to activate. In the months I've > spent in some of these places we couldn't even find a decent stove fuel > besides the gas pump, let alone an air cartidge that fits those > inflatables. Flying with one in 2007, the non-pepsi generation, is a no no. > > I'm with you and Chuck on PFD's right up to the point where you say it > ought to be a law and/or I have to wear it everywhere. Sometimes the > shoe don't always fit amigo, or make the most sense. Sometimes, reasoned > decision making and a lengthy time spent training, etc., will just have > to do in place of a knee jerk or paper solution. > > Cheers, > > Rob G > from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339>. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Are there statistics out there for how many people have died kayaking for lack of a PFD in the last 10 years? Seems that most of the deaths I hear of involve hypothermia. For sea kayaking, often done in relatively calm water, it seems like you have to come up with some far-out scenerios to die for not wearing one. I always wear mine, but we talk as if there are clear facts about how not wearing one affects kayakers. If we're weighing risks, I think it be nice to have something to base it on. And I would want to remove WW kayakers from the equation, as they seem to be involved in a different class of kayaking. I'd just like to know. Mark Sanders www.sandmarks.net -----Original Message----- Somebody else made the accurate comment that people die with PFDs and without PFDs. It's clear that many have died because they were not wearing a PFD. I have not heard of a paddler dying because they were wearing one. YMMV. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I do remember the previous discussion, and i still think that wearing a > PFD in hot weather (I was being conservative, Mark; I've paddled in 100+ > weather, too) is not the life threatening thing that you make it out to > be. If it were, the sport of WW paddling would not exist in the Southeast. > > Wear your PFD or don't, based on your own risk assessment. I just always > wear mine; one less decision to have to make. I like people i paddle > with to wear theirs, too, because it's a whole lot easier to rescue > someone if they're not using all their energy to keep their nostrils > above the water. But unless I'm "in charge", I'm not to OC about it. > > Somebody else made the accurate comment that people die with PFDs and > without PFDs. It's clear that many have died because they were not > wearing a PFD. I have not heard of a paddler dying because they were > wearing one. YMMV. > > Steve > I'm not a great swimmer, so I always wear my PFD. However, I happily paddle with people who are (a) good swimmers and (b) in conditions that merit, often paddle without their PFD on. (But always nearby.) I think that the argument for and against mandated PFD wear is similar to those used to justify mandatory seat-belts in autos. It is two-fold: a great many more lives are definitely saved by wearing seat-belts than are lost because of the rare instance of them jamming or being worn improperly. (And, yes, there are several improper ways.) And that the cost of "processing" the victims of not wearing a seat- belt is born by society in general, both in direct financial costs and indirectly in a number of ways. The result being that the person not wearing a seat-belt, or PFD, is being harmful to society, should in circumstances arise where the seat-belt, or PFD, would have been helpful. There is, as someone has already pointed out, no law against stupidity. (Probably fortunate, or I suspect many of us would have fallen afoul of that law several times in our lifetimes. I know I would have.) The tricky part is determining the circumstances -- ahead of time -- when wearing the PFD would be helpful and when it would not. Despite my best efforts, I cannot. There's always an accident around the corner waiting to spring forth. The jetski on a collision course out of nowhere. The suddenly injured shoulder making your bomb-proof roll or re-entry impossible. Your buddies temporarily out of sight around a bend. I've never tried kayak surfing, so I am in no position to know -- or even guess -- whether a PFD would be more of hindrance than a help in those conditions. Nor have I paddled in tropic heat and humidity, although summer can get quite warm and humid around here, so I cannot say anything as to whether a PFD might induce heat stroke in those conditions. But for the rest of the time, I like to see people wearing them, unless I know for certain that they can handle the normal range of accidents that are likely to happen while not wearing one. Just a side note: my only brush with heat exhaustion was on a trip off the coast of Newfoundland where water temperatures made a dry suit almost mandatory. Paddling in warm air and with moderate swells and a strong breeze, a friend suffered badly from heat exhaustion in his dry suit. But in the conditions, not wearing the suit was not an option. Damned if you do; damned if you don't. I suppose the world really needs some people to hold strong opinions. And someone standing up and shouting out in favour of safety is a probably good thing. Having said that, I am uncomfortable around such people. The world is too much made up of shades of grey for such a black or white view. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/22/2007 9:09:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca writes: I've never tried kayak surfing, so I am in no position to know -- or even guess -- whether a PFD would be more of hindrance than a help in those conditions. Nor have I paddled in tropic heat and humidity, although summer can get quite warm and humid around here, so I cannot say anything as to whether a PFD might induce heat stroke in those conditions. But for the rest of the time, I like to see people wearing them, unless I know for certain that they can handle the normal range of accidents that are likely to happen while not wearing one. I rarely see kayak surfers, myself included, without a PFD. However, there is a whole culture of competitive surfers that do not wear them. The argument is performance, very much like surf skiers and other racers that do not wear PFD's. Log onto boater talk.com or surfkayaks.com and follow the pictures. I think sea kayakers need to remind themselves every so often we are not the Prince/ess of Wales we often think we are. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Okay, I've been watching this thread from the sidelines for weeks but now it's getting silly. Yes, there is very good data from the Coast Guard that supports using a PFD when paddling. At least here in the First District (East Coast from NY to Maine). Your mileage may vary, but in the last five years or so that I have been involved in Paddle Safety education, the percentage of paddler corpses pulled from the water that were not wearing PFD's has been around 80%. We had a single fatality last fall off of Mount Desert Island where the kayaker was actually wearing a PFD and apparently died from hypothermia (no wet or dry suit). That is the only case I can recall where a sea kayaker died while wearing a PFD. The far more common case involves the non-PFD wearing public. You are free to dance as close to death as you want, but I'm wearing my PFD. Mark ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Goffma_at_aol.com wrote: > Okay, I've been watching this thread from the sidelines for weeks but now > it's getting silly. > > Yes, there is very good data from the Coast Guard that supports using a PFD > when paddling. At least here in the First District (East Coast from NY to > Maine). Your mileage may vary, but in the last five years or so that I have > been involved in Paddle Safety education, the percentage of paddler corpses > pulled from the water that were not wearing PFD's has been around 80%. We have year-round cold water in the Northwest, perhaps even colder than the summertime temps where you are Mark. Just for the record, we do get "drowning" fatalities out here, who are wearing flotation ... not a high percentage, but some. Inevitably, though they drowned, hypothermia was the root cause, inasmuch as loss of consciousness causes the head to loll, and the unconscious person inhales water. As to whether the non-PFD "drowning" fatalities would have lived if they had been wearing a PFD, perhaps some would, although wearing a Type III PFD [kind we wear] does not keep an unconscious person's head out of the water. The point might be that you give yourself a _better_ chance of rescue as a conscious or semiconscious body if you wear the PFD. There is no certainty that the PFD will "save" you on cold water. OTOH, knowledge and practice in how to re-enter a swamped boat, in combination with clothing apropos for the water temp, is the best prevention against drowning for paddlers, PFD or not. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Still seems hard to really calculate your actual risk. Did the dead without PFD still die of hypothermia? Could they even swim? What was their over all skill level? I think you're safer with one on, so I wear it, but there are plenty of times where I think the risk of not wearing it is minimal. I don't think people who choose to take that risk are unreasonable. Mark Sanders -----Original Message----- Yes, there is very good data from the Coast Guard that supports using a PFD when paddling. At least here in the First District (East Coast from NY to Maine). Your mileage may vary, but in the last five years or so that I have been involved in Paddle Safety education, the percentage of paddler corpses pulled from the water that were not wearing PFD's has been around 80%. We had a single fatality last fall off of Mount Desert Island where the kayaker was actually wearing a PFD and apparently died from hypothermia (no wet or dry suit). That is the only case I can recall where a sea kayaker died while wearing a PFD. The far more common case involves the non-PFD wearing public. You are free to dance as close to death as you want, but I'm wearing my PFD. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Sanders said (snip): > Still seems hard to really calculate your actual risk. Did the dead > without > PFD still die of hypothermia? Could they even swim? What was their over > all > skill level? Skill level? What does that have to do with it? Oh wait, maybe that's why Nigel Foster can stand upright in his kayak, while Timmy perhaps needs his sponsons. Of course, Timmy can stand on his head in his sponson-equipped kayak. Well, the point is, skill level has everything to do with it. I know a fair number of highly skilled paddlers who don't wear immersion apparel for every little trip anymore. They prefer not to advertise that fact around newbies though. I seem to have a knack for finding trouble (I usually go looking for it, otherwise I soon get bored), so I always wear my immersion gear and PFD (at the very least, a rolled down wetsiut just below torso level, which should give me time to re-enter if wet-exiting on warmer summer days). Mark, I was wondering how you handle spring paddling off your coast now that Spring has sprung? Seems the water is still relatively cold, but air temps can soar. BTW, please keep adding to your web site. I usually check back every few weeks. This is one of my favorites for a good laugh: http://www.sandmarks.net/OCKC.html Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The ocean in my neck of the woods this week has been around 58, which is about what it is through the winter. I wear a shorty farmer john, which with my natural insulation is more than adequate. I spent a bit of time in the water last week, but I don't really get cold much. I really don't know much about this cold water paddling people talk about. Sorry all you east-coasters. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd Mark, I was wondering how you handle spring paddling off your coast now that Spring has sprung? Seems the water is still relatively cold, but air temps can soar. BTW, please keep adding to your web site. I usually check back every few weeks. This is one of my favorites for a good laugh: http://www.sandmarks.net/OCKC.html Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 3/22/07, Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> wrote: > > Still seems hard to really calculate your actual risk. Did the dead > without > PFD still die of hypothermia? Could they even swim? What was their over > all > skill level? It's not possible to quantify risk in any absolute way. Life itself is inherently risky. One cannot say with finality that carrying any piece of safety equipment makes every paddle trip safe. Nor can you quantify skills with reference to every paddle trip. We do know that the drive on the freeway is probably the most dangerous part of our trip. It seems to me to be unreasonable to demand that every kayaker carry some specific list of safety equipment because you have no way to determine all the variables beforehand. Are they paddling on a pond or a bayou or a quiet and shallow estuary? Maybe a snakebite kit would be more valuable than a PFD or paddle float. I don't wear my PFD when I'm paddling on the lake in front of my house when both water and air temps are warm enough to swim. The only time I unintentionally overturned any kayak on that lake was when I was trying to get out along a rocky bit of shoreline about 80 feet from my front door in four inches of water. I was wearing a PFD but getting in and out of a kayak has become tricky for me since my accident and I don't think that the bulk of the PFD helped. But when water and air temps are dangerously cold I wear a wetsuit and my PFD. I also wear the PFD when I paddle at night. And when I'm on unfamiliar water, salt water, or on Lake Union where a DeHavilland Beaver can come roaring out of nowhere straight at me. (Okay... once a DeHavilland Otter took off in front of my lake house but I wasn't in a kayak.) If I paddled where and when Doug Lloyd paddles I'd hire a helicopter to watch over me with rescue swimmers to jump in and pull me out of the inevitable mess. I'd like to see Olympia pass *THAT* into law! The demands by some that only their idea of safety have to be followed are what seem to me to be silly. Would wearing my PFD make me safer in warm weather in front of my house? Maybe by some fractional statistical percentage. But so would sponsons. And a lot of us know where *that* argument led. Sponsons, by the way, might not be such a bad idea under some circumstances. The guy who paddled to Hawaii had sponsons so he could move safely around his boat. And I like Doug's "sea seat" which seems to me to be a logical thing to carry on his trips if one cannot afford a helicopter and swim team. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA PS: I, like Doug Lloyd and many others, really like your website Mark. Keep up the good work. :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At least mine! I remember a few years ago when I first came across the PaddleWIse web site. I hesitated subscribing thinking the list was not for beginners like me. Sadly, I got in right after the great 'Sponson' debate, which I heard was a good broo-haha. Since then the PFD question has come up several time and I always enjoy it. Hopefully there are some new people out there hearing it for the first time. I personally like it when people get their dander up a bit. I also wish I could decide to wear my PFD for the real risk involved and not for fear of being declared a heretic on this list should something happen to me while not wearing it. As I told Scott, I figure if I was to be shot dead by a sniper out on the water, I'm sure someone will have a list of reasons why it was my own fault for igoring some risk. Say la Vee. Mark www.sandmarks.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/22/2007 10:10:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Goffma_at_aol.com writes: Okay, I've been watching this thread from the sidelines for weeks but now it's getting silly. Here are some fantastic shots of the kind of behavior that is flauntingly outragious. It should be banned. They look like they are having fun, too. Where are the purists in the sea kayak world when we need them to guilt them away from their foolish, arrogant pride. _http://www.surfski.info/content/view/157/67/index.php?option=com_content&task =view&id=364&Itemid=30_ (http://www.surfski.info/content/view/157/67/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=364&Itemid=30) Cheers, Rob G Runnin' for cover! ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I assume the relevance to the current discussion is that they are not wearing PFDs. The question I keep posing is, are they therefore safer? Perhaps this is one of those big surf places where PFDs would be a hindrance? No one who posts cool pics like that needs cover, Rob. Steve Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > Here are some fantastic shots of the kind of behavior that is flauntingly > outragious. It should be banned. They look like they are having fun, too. Where > are the purists in the sea kayak world when we need them to guilt them away > from their foolish, arrogant pride. > > (http://www.surfski.info/content/view/157/67/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=364&Itemid=30) > > Cheers, > Rob G > Runnin' for cover! -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the link, Rob. Some exhilarating stuff on there; so were some of the other links indicating more poignant moments, too. I'm sure there are whole camps of paddlers where the status quo of the particular participant's pursuit doesn't include the wearing of a PFD, especially during competitive events. As far as surf kayaking in actual big-surf zones, the above still holds true as we've seen, sometimes geographically co-dependant. I do remember a story from Matt about a Washington coast kayak surfer who misjudged the magnitude of a huge Pacific swell and resulting roller (and/or got caught unawares, can't remember). He was dragged out of his kayak, driven to the bottom of the wave, way down deep. His wet suit booties were both ripped off during his descent. His re-floatation to the surface was agonizingly long if I remember from the vivid description, perhaps delayed by the next breaker too. Can't remember if he had a PFD on, lost it too, or what. Though board surfers deal with this reality often (being driven under), as an infrequent big-surf paddler myself (and therefore unaccustomed to holding my breath while being beaten silly by the surf for indefinite periods of time), I'd sure want some buoyancy assistance to get to the surface faster, especially if the next few waves took me down under again before getting another breath, before finally resurfacing BTW, so when does discussing safety issues on Paddlewise (like the current PFD topic) become silly? Long-winded, repetitious, opinionated, heated, unnecessarily argumentative, ill-informed, overly zealous, conjecturable, self-righteous, and out of context -- perhaps. Okay, does kinda sound a bit silly. :-) Well, whatever it takes to float folk's Cheerios, Doug (live long and may your paddling prosper) The other Mark had said and you replied: > Okay, I've been watching this thread from the sidelines for weeks but now > it's getting silly. > > > >> Here are some fantastic shots of the kind of behavior that is flauntingly >> outragious. It should be banned. They look like they are having fun, too. >> Where >> are the purists in the sea kayak world when we need them to guilt them >> away >> from their foolish, arrogant pride. >> >> _http://www.surfski.info/content/view/157/67/index.php?option=com_content&task >> =view&id=364&Itemid=30_ >> (http://www.surfski.info/content/view/157/67/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=364&Itemid=30) >> > Cheers, >> >> Rob G >> Runnin' for cover! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/22/2007 10:56:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cramersec_at_charter.net writes: I assume the relevance to the current discussion is that they are not wearing PFDs. The question I keep posing is, are they therefore safer? Perhaps this is one of those big surf places where PFDs would be a hindrance? No one who posts cool pics like that needs cover, Rob. Steve I really have no idea if they are safer or not without a PFD in the ski world, as that is an activity I've not yet undertaken in a meaningful way. I have my suspicions but would not dare speak owing to my wealth of ignorance on that facet of paddling. The only reason I bring it up is that in paddlesports there are many camps to consider and I believe due consideration to all participants should be applied. I know they have chase boats and so forth, but an awful lot of conditioning paddles go on, I suppose similarly attired, before the event. I know we have ski paddlers on this list, so perhaps they would like to express their views? Cheers, Rob G ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/22/2007 12:43:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, douglloyd_at_shaw.ca writes: Thanks for the link, Rob. Some exhilarating stuff on there; so were some of the other links indicating more poignant moments, too. I'm sure there are whole camps of paddlers where the status quo of the particular participant's pursuit doesn't include the wearing of a PFD, especially during competitive events. Doug and all, Here are links to the recent Santa Cruz surf contest image gallery. Some fantastic shots on there. Looking forward to the weekend. _http://www.santacruzpictures.com/index.php/gallery?path=/Action%20Sports/Sant a%20Cruz%20Kayak%20Surf%20Festival%202007&start_page=6_ (http://www.santacruzpictures.com/index.php/gallery?path=/Action%20Sports/Santa%20Cruz%20Kayak%20Sur f%20Festival%202007&start_page=6) Cheers, Rob G ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve writes; >>Somebody else made the accurate comment that people die with PFDs and without PFDs. It's clear that many have died because they were not wearing a PFD. I have not heard of a paddler dying because they were wearing one. I think Len Goodman may be an example of someone dying because he was wearing a pfd. Please allow me to explain. Len was an experienced paddler. He was experienced enough to know that if he was to go paddling alone on the ocean then he should be wearing his pfd and carrying a paddlefloat, no doubt convinced that these items held significant safety benefits for such an excursion. Now let's imagine for a second that he was not wearing his pfd and did not have a paddlefloat - let's say that he forgot them. Do you still think he would have been comfortable paddling solo offshore? I'd be willing to bet that in that case he would have probably stayed in the harbor, or not gone paddling at all. This is the problem I see with putting so much emphasis on the value of safety equipment - it can instill overconfidence, or should I call it "false confidence." I am not suggesting anybody should go paddling without their safety equipment. What I am suggesting is that everyone should paddle AS IF they are without their safety equipment. If one does not have the skill to handle a situation, then that person should not be going into it on the belief that they posses the equipment to manage it. Safety equipment should be considered a backup, not a primary system. Skills, physical and cognitive, should be the primary recourse. But of course these are much more difficult to come by then simply plunking your money down in your friendly boat shop. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> After reading Paddlewise, I thought if I bought more gadets I didn't need > skills to be safe.... now I am confused .... > > Ed Confused? Why would you be confused? Skills are a continuum: you continually need to develop your cognitive, perceptual, and motor skills. There are gross and fine continuum skills; closed and open continuum skills; internal and external paced continuum skills; discrete, serial, and continuous continuum skills; individual, coactive and interactive continuum skills; simple and complex continuum skills; and there are low and high organization continuum skills. You have to practice skills to develope and maintain skills on this continuum: you can use variable and fixed practice and there is massed and distributed practice, all on a continuum. The above skills continuum is contextualized at home, in the pool, at the lake, and in the ocean. Gadgets are only adjunctive to skills - simply backups. Some you can make; most you need to buy. In keeping with all those numerous skill-continuum factors, does it not make sense to buy into a continuum of lbuying ots and lots of gadgets? See, that was easy. :-) Doug L > After reading Paddlewise, I thought if I bought more gadets I didn't need > skills to be safe.... now I am confused .... > > Ed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday 23 March 2007 07:40, PaddleWise wrote: > This is the problem I see with putting so much emphasis on the value of > safety equipment - it can instill overconfidence, or should I call it > "false confidence." I am not suggesting anybody should go paddling > without their safety equipment. What I am suggesting is that everyone > should paddle AS IF they are without their safety equipment. If one does > not have the skill to handle a situation, then that person should not be > going into it on the belief that they posses the equipment to manage it. > Safety equipment should be considered a backup, not a primary system. > Skills, physical and cognitive, should be the primary recourse. But of > course these are much more difficult to come by then simply plunking > your money down in your friendly boat shop. Very wisely put! Indeed, the more skills you have, the less emphasis on safety gear, but it is worth noting that stunt drivers, ralley drivers and other professional drivers that drive fast and dangerously have a lot of active and passive safety gear in their cars. I don't think they believe the safety equipment keeps them on the track, or planned route, it just makes the odds better if something unplanned happens! And as Scott notes, money is easier to come by than skills, so some think that getting themselves the best equipment money can buy, will immediately turn them into champs. These clowns are very visible at any model flying field. Usually arriving with an entourage of friends and family, their equipment is brand new and almost always the best money can buy. Just because helicopters, and scale models, say of a Top Flite North American P-51 Mustang, are cool, a lot of people buy them as their first model, thinking it can't be that much to it. I have tried to reason with some, tell them get to the basics first (just controlling a rudder can be a handful), or at the very least try flying a model of your plane in a simulator, with wind and turbulence turned on! When you manage to take off and return to base in one piece using a simulator, it is time to try something similar in real life. And preferably something sturdier! And get a coach! A good one, if you can find one! Do they listen? Very rarely! If they do come back, after their wrecking of a lot of equipment the first time and often getting a lot of egg on face, and sometimes laughed at by their "pals", they realise that you have to do it step by step. Just as in any other human endeavour! My experience, naturally, was just like theirs the first time round, so I had quite a few false starts, but eventually did get the hang of it, and did get a good tutor! And I mastered it, just by getting a very simple and sturdy plane, and doing it day after day after day, for a few years! I spent much of my childhood in rowboats, never wearing a PFD (we didn't even own one), then in my early twenties some sailing off-shore (and blush, never wearing a PFD - eventually, somebody's parents interefered and gave me one, which I thereafter used!), but when progressing to kayak it became natural to wear one (using the sailing PFD, but with the foamy bits rearranged a bit, to make paddling in it more comfortable - probably a big No-No!). And that I used the next few years, till motorcycling and flying abroad became the way of travelling, and the kayak was left abandoned, slowly crumbling away. As Scott puts it, any good equipment, in the hands of one who does not know how to handle it, can instill a lot of "false confidence" about your own abilities. An electric bilge pump, with a big reliable battery and a hefty, marine on/off switch, that piece of equipment is something I put high up on the list of things to bring, when going paddling - most of the rest is options! Safe paddling - I'm off to recce this summer's paddling adventure - if we are well enough when the time comes! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
To summarize Doug Lloyd: "There is a continum of continuae." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> To summarize Doug Lloyd: > > "There is a continum of continuae." > Or did you mean my post was a contiunua of simultaneity? Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"An electric bilge pump, with a big reliable battery and a hefty, marine on/off switch, that piece of equipment is something I put high up on the list of things to bring, when going paddling - most of the rest is options!" The voice of experience speaking. Likewise, I would be reluctant to launch without a reliable hands-free pump. Had an electric pump and foot pump in the last kayak, now just a foot pump. A solo paddler who goes without a hands-free pump needs more experience. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Wow 80 deg water and 90 deg air. This summer I have to come up north to Georgia and get away from the heat down here. 90 deg water, 105 deg air, 80% humidity :) Mark J. Arnold Corpus Christi, Tx. PS - Although I do preach always wearing a PFD there are usually 3-4 days a year as described above when I really do think it is unhealthy to be wearing my PFD and do paddle with it on the deck. I am never more than 20 yards from 3 ft or less water depth without the PFD. Luckily we have miles and miles of this kind of water between the mainland and the barrier islands. I am going to have to spring for one of the inflatable PFD's this summer so I can always practice what I preach. > From: Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net> > Oh, please. I understand that you NW types think it's a heat wave when > the temps get to 75, but really now. I've been paddling in Georgia for > 20 years, summer water temps in the 80's, air temps in the 90's or more, > always wearing a PFD, always with people wearing PFDs. In that time I > have seen one, count 'em, one person who appeared to be having problems > related to heat. That's just not a very good excuse. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] After reading Paddlewise, I thought if I bought more gadets I didn't need skills to be safe.... now I am confused .... Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> > Mark Sanders said (snip): > >> Still seems hard to really calculate your actual risk. Did the dead >> without >> PFD still die of hypothermia? Could they even swim? What was their over >> all >> skill level? > > Skill level? What does that have to do with it? Oh wait, maybe that's why > Nigel Foster can stand upright in his kayak, while Timmy perhaps needs his > sponsons. Of course, Timmy can stand on his head in his sponson-equipped > kayak. Well, the point is, skill level has everything to do with it. I > know a fair number of highly skilled paddlers who don't wear immersion > apparel for every little trip anymore. They prefer not to advertise that > fact around newbies though. I seem to have a knack for finding trouble (I > usually go looking for it, otherwise I soon get bored), so I always wear > my immersion gear and PFD (at the very least, a rolled down wetsiut just > below torso level, which should give me time to re-enter if wet-exiting on > warmer summer days). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Don't they say "He who dies with the most toys wins!"? Maybe that's the point in collecting all the gadgetry-to look a successful corpse. -----Original Message----- From: ehand [mailto:ehand_at_ix.netcom.com] After reading Paddlewise, I thought if I bought more gadets I didn't need skills to be safe.... now I am confused .... Ed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Wow 80 deg water and 90 deg air. This summer I have to come up north to Georgia and get away from the heat down here. 90 deg water, 105 deg air, 80% humidity :) Mark J. Arnold Corpus Christi, Tx. PS - Although I do preach always wearing a PFD there are usually 3-4 days a year as described above when I really do think it is unhealthy to be wearing my PFD and do paddle with it on the deck. I am never more than 20 yards from 3 ft or less water depth without the PFD. Luckily we have miles and miles of this kind of water between the mainland and the barrier islands. I am going to have to spring for one of the inflatable PFD's this summer so I can always practice what I preach. > From: Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net> > Oh, please. I understand that you NW types think it's a heat wave when > the temps get to 75, but really now. I've been paddling in Georgia for > 20 years, summer water temps in the 80's, air temps in the 90's or more, > always wearing a PFD, always with people wearing PFDs. In that time I > have seen one, count 'em, one person who appeared to be having problems > related to heat. That's just not a very good excuse. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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