I use an old Valley 7" hatch that was still serviceable but not ideal for continued use, then silicone in a tire fill valve. I use compressed air from a compressor (don't over do it, though my Nordkapp would blow the hatch before anything else due to its reinforced nature). Use soapy dishsoap liquid and water mixed, and brush it on. Bubbles are easily observed if present. Don't make the soap to runny with water. Tire stores do something similar if they don't have a dunk tank for testing tire mounting and repairs. Some kayaks, like those with plastic "H" seams, sometimes can be difficult to track down the leak if the air is migrated away. I can't fathom (pardon the pun) even remotely why an experienced paddler would venture off into potentially heavy seas trusting only the reputation of the manufacturer, though I'm sure 99% do that. I've witnessed and heard first and second hand boat leak stories. I think it is one of the few things that I find really upsetting to me to undergo while sea kayaking. I've had a breached hull myself while winter storm paddling on the remote shores of Vancouver Island and in-season touring, and once even spit my seams in storm-tossed logs. I much prefer to minimize the occurrence of these types of incidents (ergo my reinforced hull, seams, and testing regime). I've heard of filling your kayak (very partially) with colored water, then testing for leaks breaching through. Admittedly, I'm pretty anal about this kind of stuff. It's a matter of taking responsibility for yourself. With a home made boat, I'd be just as rigorous, if not more so. I don't know what the building forums suggest. My method was adopted after a local kayak retailer showed me how he tested hid boats (all British heavies with he rubber hatches). Well, your YSMV (your sinkage may vary). BTW, I doubt the wave height were as the reporter described. Most media reporting add an exaggerating factor. I always prefer authors and reporters to downgrade to as close as possible the real wave heights/wind velocity. It doesn't take much to cause an upset, test gear and boat to the maximum, and drain paddling energies. Readers looking for relevance need to hear the real facts so as to provide a realistic appraisal for their own yardsticks. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC > Doug > How do you pressurize your boat so you can look for leak? I am putting > the finishing touches of a Gillemot Double and the leaks are a concern. > Thanks in advance *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 4/2/07, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > > BTW, I doubt the wave height were as the reporter described. Most media > reporting add an exaggerating factor. I always prefer authors and > reporters > to downgrade to as close as possible the real wave heights/wind velocity. I believe almost everyone overestimates wave height but not on purpose. Part of the reason is that one seldom has a level platform from which to make the estimate. One's platform is usually tipping one way or the other. If your bow is headed for the trough of a wave and you look at the top of the approaching crest it appears higher because the angle of your head is farther up due to the bow of the kayak pointing down to the trough. This increased angle causes most of us to think that the approaching wave is higher than if you were level looking up at a normal angle. And there is always the pucker factor. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A skilled paddler should be able to estimate wave height and wind speeds reasonably accurately. The two kayakers were supposed to be fairly advanced, though 8 years of paddling experience may or may not have provided the necessary accumulation of attributes. I guess my real point was the media seem responsible for inflating wave heights - usually. Don't ask me how I know. Your points were taken under good advisement, however. Glad we have experienced mariners on this list. Doug L > On 4/2/07, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: >> >> >> BTW, I doubt the wave height were as the reporter described. Most media >> reporting add an exaggerating factor. I always prefer authors and >> reporters >> to downgrade to as close as possible the real wave heights/wind velocity. > > > I believe almost everyone overestimates wave height but not on purpose. > Part > of the reason is that one seldom has a level platform from which to make > the > estimate. One's platform is usually tipping one way or the other. If your > bow is headed for the trough of a wave and you look at the top of the > approaching crest it appears higher because the angle of your head is > farther up due to the bow of the kayak pointing down to the trough. This > increased angle causes most of us to think that the approaching wave is > higher than if you were level looking up at a normal angle. > > And there is always the pucker factor. > > > Craig Jungers > Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > A skilled paddler should be able to estimate wave height and wind speeds > reasonably accurately. The two kayakers were supposed to be fairly > advanced, though 8 years of paddling experience may or may not have > provided the necessary accumulation of attributes. I guess my real point > was the media seem responsible for inflating wave heights - usually. > Don't ask me how I know. Basically, I agree with Doug. However ... I think 80% of the folks I have paddled with over the years grossly overestimate wave height, when they are out in it ... typically by a factor of two. Most folks are not very good observers, unless they have trained themselves and checked their estimates. Having reporters repeat what paddlers say makes even for more error. OTOH, if the writer of the article had quoted a figure from a NOAA or EnvironmentCanada buoy ... than I'd believe they were more accurate. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Good points Dave, as always. Of course, if you are in three foot waves, and you are down in the trough three feet looking up at the crest of either a shore break or a steep wind wave, it does appear to be a 6 foot wall of water coming down on you. Your factor of two. Nick's explanation helps: http://www.paddlinginstructor.com/articles/determining_wave_height_in_rough_water_20060401.php Usually, I determine wave height from simple exposure over the years of comparing observed height estimations with reported heights. But say, if a paddler doubles their estimate and then a newspaper reported factors in another doubling, well, it doesn't take long to have 20 foot seas on the Great Lakes at half the needed 60 knots to really generate those seas. On the other hand, most of us estimate the wave height correctly, then add another three feet when telling friends about our little adventure. Add another three feet to that if you are drinking at the pub with those same friends or there are women listening. The latter is usually when most guys lie about size. :-) Well, it's just about tax time here in Canada. Kayaking is like taxes, you can make it as dangerous as you want. DL > Doug Lloyd wrote: >> A skilled paddler should be able to estimate wave height and wind speeds >> reasonably accurately. The two kayakers were supposed to be fairly >> advanced, though 8 years of paddling experience may or may not have >> provided the necessary accumulation of attributes. I guess my real point >> was the media seem responsible for inflating wave heights - usually. >> Don't ask me how I know. > > Basically, I agree with Doug. However ... > > I think 80% of the folks I have paddled with over the years grossly > overestimate wave height, when they are out in it ... typically by a > factor of two. Most folks are not very good observers, unless they have > trained themselves and checked their estimates. Having reporters repeat > what paddlers say makes even for more error. > > OTOH, if the writer of the article had quoted a figure from a NOAA or > EnvironmentCanada buoy ... than I'd believe they were more accurate. > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: ....snip > paddler doubles their estimate and then a newspaper reported factors in > another doubling, well, it doesn't take long to have 20 foot seas on the > Great Lakes at half the needed 60 knots to really generate those seas. On ....snip Check out this forecast for the inshore waters south shore Lake Superior: NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MARQUETTE MI 533 PM EDT TUE APR 3 2007 FOR WATERS WITHIN FIVE NAUTICAL MILES OF SHORE LSZ241-242-040600- UPPER ENTRANCE OF PORTAGE CANAL TO MANITOU ISLAND MI- 533 PM EDT TUE APR 3 2007 ...SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY NOW IN EFFECT UNTIL 8 PM EDT THIS EVENING... ...GALE WARNING NOW IN EFFECT FROM 8 PM EDT THIS EVENING THROUGH THURSDAY AFTERNOON... .TONIGHT...NE WIND TO 30 KT INCREASING TO GALES TO 35 KT BY MIDNIGHT...THEN BACKING N LATE. SNOW. WAVES 4 TO 6 FT BUILDING TO 15 TO 20 FT. .WED...N GALES TO 40 KT. SNOW SHOWERS. WAVES BUILDING TO 20 TO 25 FT. .WED NIGHT...NW GALES TO 35 KT. SNOW SHOWERS. WAVES 20 TO 25 FT. I can't find my wind speed/wave height tables but is this even possible with only 40 kt gales? I won't be out there in my kayak but I'll be looking for a protected cove with my surfboard. -mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
mike dziobak wrote: > Check out this forecast for the inshore waters south shore Lake > Superior: > NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MARQUETTE MI 533 PM EDT TUE APR 3 2007 FOR > WATERS WITHIN FIVE NAUTICAL MILES OF SHORE LSZ241-242-040600- .WED...N > GALES TO 40 KT. SNOW SHOWERS. WAVES BUILDING TO 20 TO 25 FT. .WED > NIGHT...NW GALES TO 35 KT. SNOW SHOWERS. WAVES 20 TO 25 FT. > I can't find my wind speed/wave height tables but is this even possible > with only 40 kt gales? Yes. With sufficient fetch, the "observed average" produced by a sustained 35 knot gale runs about 20 ft [Bascom; Waves and Beaches; 1980 version; page 48]. I suspect the "observed average" relates closely to the "significant wave height" figure given by the buoy reports. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That's what puzzles me here, the north fetch on the Keweenaw is only about 40 nmi because of Isle Royale and it goes to about 60 on one side of IR to about double that on the other side. I did notice that the open lake WX is gales up to 50 kt. But I'm not used to seeing such large wave magnitudes for the in shore even at those wind speeds. The weather map doesn't look very special either. -mike > mike dziobak wrote: > >> Check out this forecast for the inshore waters south shore Lake >> Superior: > >> NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MARQUETTE MI 533 PM EDT TUE APR 3 2007 FOR >> WATERS WITHIN FIVE NAUTICAL MILES OF SHORE LSZ241-242-040600- .WED...N >> GALES TO 40 KT. SNOW SHOWERS. WAVES BUILDING TO 20 TO 25 FT. .WED >> NIGHT...NW GALES TO 35 KT. SNOW SHOWERS. WAVES 20 TO 25 FT. > >> I can't find my wind speed/wave height tables but is this even possible >> with only 40 kt gales? > > Yes. With sufficient fetch, the "observed average" produced by a > sustained > 35 knot gale runs about 20 ft [Bascom; Waves and Beaches; 1980 version; > page 48]. I suspect the "observed average" relates closely to the > "significant wave height" figure given by the buoy reports. > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > -- mike Dziobak Dept of Civil and Environmental Engineering Michigan Technological University 1400 Townsend Dr. 870 Dow Bldg. Houghton, MI 49931 Tel:906-487-3471 Fax:906-487-2943 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] From: "Doug Lloyd" <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> > Agreed Craig - very well written. I like to do a leak test on my kayak at > least once a year with mild air pressure and a soap solution (bubbles form > if there are leaks). Boat leaks, boat no float, boat no good. It's a > simple mantra. Anyway, I'm sticking with my small hatches. Doug How do you pressurize your boat so you can look for leak? I am putting the finishing touches of a Gillemot Double and the leaks are a concern. Thanks in advance Phil Baus Vancouver, USA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/2/2007 6:03:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: I believe almost everyone overestimates wave height but not on purpose. Part of the reason is that one seldom has a level platform from which to make the estimate. One's platform is usually tipping one way or the other. If your bow is headed for the trough of a wave and you look at the top of the approaching crest it appears higher because the angle of your head is farther up due to the bow of the kayak pointing down to the trough. This increased angle causes most of us to think that the approaching wave is higher than if you were level looking up at a normal angle. And there is always the pucker factor. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buoy reports are your friend. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ah, but the bouy report is significant wave height which is average of the top third largest waves. So on the lake at least, from my experience, it might be possible to see an occasional wave twice the size of the bouy report. I say it might be because i am never very sure of my wave height estimate from the seat of a kayak. While surf boarding and sail boarding, I think my estimates are better. -mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Buoy reports are your friend. > > Cheers, > > Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/3/2007 5:26:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mdziobak_at_mtu.edu writes: Ah, but the bouy report is significant wave height which is average of the top third largest waves. So on the lake at least, from my experience, it might be possible to see an occasional wave twice the size of the bouy report. I say it might be because i am never very sure of my wave height estimate from the seat of a kayak. While surf boarding and sail boarding, I think my estimates are better. -mike >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Mike (and all), Buoy reports tell you what went on in the area of the buoy. The further you stray from there, the more talent at elocution you may apply to what you saw. However, a buddy said, we were in 8-10 foot seas!!! Later, I looked at the buoy report several miles away, it said the seas there were 5 feet. Perhaps, and a big perhaps, he saw a couple corporate swell mergers, a bit of clapotis or current enhancing for a while a 5 foot swell and with pucker factor adding in another embellishment made them out to be 8-10 feet. What I saw was typical 5 foot swell, enough to bury a paddler whose upright paddle blade disappears from view momentarily. Honest to God 5 footers, honest to God 2.5 footers. Once in a blue moon, maybe a 6 due to some feature, but who knows, maybe I was too close to it and made it up. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/2/2007 7:35:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kdruger_at_pacifier.com writes: OTOH, if the writer of the article had quoted a figure from a NOAA or EnvironmentCanada buoy ... than I'd believe they were more accurate. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave, a couple of pairs of surf skiers got into trouble las fall up by Bellingham, WA. One pair was whisked aboard a coast guard chopper. The news film made the blog rounds. They said the waves went up to 10 feet. The closest buoy was about 10 miles away on south San Juan Island, in a much more exposed area to the fetch, it reported waves up to 5.9 feet. Like Craig said, pucker factor, works every time. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
FOLLOW UP POST - Try the Southwind site for some _great information_: http://www.southwindkayaks.com/library/survivalskills.html No affiliation dl > Doug > How do you pressurize your boat so you can look for leak? I am putting > the finishing touches of a Gillemot Double and the leaks are a concern. > Thanks in advance > > Phil Baus > Vancouver, USA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > FOLLOW UP POST - Try the Southwind site for some _great information_: One problem with that info is that it assumes all bulkheads are perfectly watertight. Many kayaks have a teensy hole in the centre to allow for air pressure equalization. I put one in both front and rear bulkheads after seeing the hatch covers bulging (Kayaksport rubber). No amount of rolling or other wet practice has ever resulted in anything other than a bit of dampness in the compartment. If you're really paranoid about leaks, Doug, you're gonna have a lot of fun with an SOF. What with sewing seams making holes in the fabric that are sometimes too large (just) to completely close with paint or varnish, you're gonna have to decide whether you want a bit of a leak or go crazy finding and filling every possible hole. Since the reserve buoyancy in an SOF comes from flotation bags and not the skin's integrity, it's really a moot point, IMHO. With composite kayaks, I think you have to differentiate between a leak that constitutes a leak and one that constitutes a potential structural failure. The small one of the former is annoying, a large one or the latter, dangerous. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One factor involved in leakage into a bow or stern compartment is pressure differences. This does not arise in a skin boat or any kayak without bulkheads but can have a profound effect in bulkheaded composite boats where a small leak that in and off itself might be of no particular significance can admit a large amount of water. If the leak is small (as are the small drill holes that people place in their bulkheads) the pressure in the compartments is rarely the same as the outside when you are paddling in rough water. There is a certain about of flex in the hull (even in heavily constructed boats) and as the kayak crosses the waves, the compartments alternately become of higher and then lower pressure than the outside. They are, in effect, breathing. If there were no bulkheads this would not happen. The tiny hole that people put in their bulkheads does not change this situation because the pressure can not equalize across such a small hole this quickly. The bellows effect is more pronounced when conditions get bad. People who have been puzzled with the fact that a small amount of water is getting into their boat while paddling in moderate conditions can find out at the wrong time that the situation is a lot worse when conditions go bad. A small leak can become a big problem. This difference in pressure means that the kayak effectively sucks water through the small hole about half the time. The other half the time, it blows air back out. It is surprising how much water can come in through a small hole under such circumstances. It is like a pump. Usually this is a nuisance, but the hole does not have to be that big to become a problem on a rough day. I have seen this phenomena be a problem even in places above the waterline, for example a hatch leak at the junction with the deck. A little puddle might collect here and be replenished frequently and the boat is quietly drinking from that puddle enthusiastically every time a relative vacuum is being created in the bulkheaded space. One can conceive of circumstances that one could try and do something about this. In a boat with a hatch in the aft bulkhead, it might actually be worth opening that hatch so the pressure in that back compartment is equalized. Understanding the disadvantages of that strategy, blah blah. __________ Anyway, one of the advantages of building your own fiberglass boat (there are not many) is that as the builder you can devote attention to the details of inside and outside seams and hatch mountings that many commercial builders cannot "afford" to do. There should be a zero-tolerance policy to leaks with the Doug Lloyd bubble test. At least with the rudderless crowd. Many rudder installations effectively mean there is a leak into the back bulkheaded space. The "hole" can be tolerated if it only intermittently is flooded with water. If there is no "standing" water over the hole, then the volume of water that gets in will probably not be dangerous. As a matter of kayak design, it is preferable if hatch-deck junctions and seams and rudder line entrance areas are not in puddles. Many designs do not meet this particular standard. On Apr 3, 2007, at 1:24 PM, Michael Daly wrote: > With composite kayaks, I think you have to differentiate between a > leak that constitutes a leak and one that constitutes a potential > structural failure. The small one of the former is annoying, a > large one or the latter, dangerous. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm aware of the SOF issue. I guess I realize the SOF's are better at shorter duration trips/outing - not long, dangerous crossing or rough, extended off shore paddling. I figured someone would bring up the pin hole issue. Leak testers need to work out how they are going to take that into account. I heard back from Sharon Bloyd-Peshkin at the Magazine Program, Journalism Department of Columbia College Chicago. She said the hatch on the Epic kayak wasn't strapped down tight enough. Mike had a similar boat in the past which didn't need as much cinching down. he was obviously unaware of the issue at the time of the incident. Doug L > Doug Lloyd wrote: >> FOLLOW UP POST - Try the Southwind site for some _great information_: > > One problem with that info is that it assumes all bulkheads are perfectly > watertight. Many kayaks have a teensy hole in the centre to allow for air > pressure equalization. I put one in both front and rear bulkheads after > seeing the hatch covers bulging (Kayaksport rubber). No amount of rolling > or other wet practice has ever resulted in anything other than a bit of > dampness in the compartment. > > If you're really paranoid about leaks, Doug, you're gonna have a lot of > fun with an SOF. What with sewing seams making holes in the fabric that > are sometimes too large (just) to completely close with paint or varnish, > you're gonna have to decide whether you want a bit of a leak or go crazy > finding and filling every possible hole. Since the reserve buoyancy in an > SOF comes from flotation bags and not the skin's integrity, it's really a > moot point, IMHO. > > With composite kayaks, I think you have to differentiate between a leak > that constitutes a leak and one that constitutes a potential structural > failure. The small one of the former is annoying, a large one or the > latter, dangerous. > > Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I'm aware of the SOF issue. I guess I realize the SOF's are better at > shorter duration trips/outing - not long, dangerous crossing or rough, > extended off shore paddling. Doug, if you can find a copy of Watkins' Last Expedition, by F. Spencer Chapman, you should read his account of what I recall was a hundred-mile or more trip in an Inuit-built SOF kayak in weather so rough that Chapman was forced to roll several times. Even the Inuit he traveled with thought it was a rough trip. Nonetheless, he stayed afloat, and without flotation bags, at that. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert said (big snip): > One factor involved in leakage into a bow or stern compartment is > pressure differences. This does not arise in a skin boat or any kayak > without bulkheads but can have a profound effect in bulkheaded > composite boats where a small leak that in and off itself might be of > no particular significance can admit a large amount of water. Robert, et al, One of the reasons I'm a bit anal about leaks is because of all the modifications I've done to the hull and deck (I have a full-lenght keel strip bolted every 12" inches and custom-molded rudder lines entering the rear deck, to name a few. I should also add that when my Nordkapp kayak was new in 1981, I got wet compartments all the time paddling, especially hot days in rough seas. I tried drilling the pin holes under advisement of the retailer in the bulkheads. It didn't help. That's when I took it in for the first leak test, performed by the retailer (I eventually started doing this myself) . We filled the pin holes first, then subsequently discovered bubbles coming from around the 7" hatch rims. I guess they are glassed in seperately and there were migratory pathways for the air/water exchange. We sealed them up (the dealer did). I eventually redid the rim edges where they are cut into the deck with my own attention for better detai, using epoxyl. I'm the one out there on the ocean, not the retailer as I once complained loudly. Some paddlers trust their hatches so much they don't use gear bags. I never had that much faith. :-) Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"A small leak can become a big problem... It is surprising how much water can come in through a small hole under such circumstances. It is like a pump. Usually this is a nuisance, but the hole does not have to be that big to become a problem on a rough day." Have you ever seen this become a significant problem? I have drilled a 1 millimetre hole at the top of each bulkhead and each compartment remains dry, no matter how much rolling, surfing or bashing over waves the day involves. While a boat without bulkheads won't have this problem, isn't it likely true that much more water can enter the boat and fill spaces around float bags and other buoyancy in the event of a capsize and flooded boat, than with a bulkheaded boat? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Apr 3, 2007, at 7:55 PM, Peter Treby wrote: > "A small leak can become a big problem... It is > surprising how much water can come in through a > small hole under such circumstances. It is like a > pump. Usually this is a nuisance, but the hole > does not have to be that big to become a problem > on a rough day." > Have you ever seen this become a significant > problem? I have drilled a 1 millimetre hole at the > top of each bulkhead and each compartment remains > dry, no matter how much rolling, surfing or > bashing over waves the day involves. I mentioned the small hole in the bulkhead only to say that the goal of that hole is to keep the pressure in the bulkheaded space equal to atmospheric pressure when you are taking your boat over a mountain pass or when the temperature is changing. It works great for that. But it is not a big enough hole to maintain an equilibrium pressure in the setting of the bellows effect of paddling a boat in rough water with the hull being alternately compressed and released by wave pressure every few seconds. The water is not entering via that small hole in the bulkhead. There is no water up against that hole most of the time. The problem is some small leak in the seam or hatch or deck attachment point that normally does not admit much water but will admit water when the boat is flexing etc when traveling in rough water. The "vacuum" phenomena will suck the water in and alternately puff little bubbles of air out. Rolling is a different situation. The "pressure" in the bulkheaded space is likely never much different than the outside and small holes (such as that deliberately put in a bulkhead) do not admit much water between the fact that there is no pressure difference and that that hole only for short times might have water up against it. The key is that that hole is not exposed to water all day long. If you have the round rubber hatches that I prefer which are air- tight, you can just plug up any bulkhead hole vents and take the boat from the hot air into cold water or from a cold spot to a warm one and look at the hatch. It should bulge out or suck in. If it does not, you have a leak. Not as useful as the Lloyd test because you do not know the location but it has alerted me to the problem when I would notice my front hatch bulging out but not the back hatch or on one boat but not the other. My recent experience had to do with deck fittings that I THOUGHT I had installed watertight. If they are in recessed depressions, they are perfect places for the bellows effect -- patiently pulling in water. I am compulsive about this stuff because I like my boats dry for camping. I do not store everything in water-tight bags. Water resistant bags are easier for many things. Once of those safety vs convenience tradeoffs. But I have been on trips where someone in a commercial boat had a gallon of water accumulate in a day of vaguely rough water paddling without a clearly visible leak even looking at the situation on dry land. That is up there in the "effects handling" category. When I read these stories of experienced people getting into trouble with leaks that they did not "know" about it, it is troubling. They are sinking and they do not know why! There is no "obvious" hole. I believe this occurs largely in the context of bulkheads. The same holes in a boat without bulkheads would admit substantially less water. -- or they would learn about it sooner :) On my earlier boats I would make hatches that were essentially just two cockpit rims covered with two spray covers, one slightly smaller inside the other. Actually it worked pretty well in an era that good watertight hatches were hard to find ( or some sand would get in the threads or whatever). If the boat was upright it worked perfectly. If you rolled a lot or spent time with the boat upside down then some water would get in so it is was not as good as the commercial rubber hatches available today. I built a small, very "rigid" kayak for surfing and camping and I would watch endlessly -- what else is there to do :) -- the front hatch puffing up and sucking back as I travelled through the waves. I would have never guessed how much compression and relaxation of the hull was taking place without having the benefit of watching this little rhythm. Suddenly it made sense that "leaks" that would normally not admit any water of consequence could pull in a lot of water. In calm water paddling, you did not see it. > While a boat > without bulkheads won't have this problem, isn't > it likely true that much more water can enter the > boat and fill spaces around float bags and other > buoyancy in the event of a capsize and flooded > boat, than with a bulkheaded boat? ABSOLUTELY. I believe in bulkheaded boats with the cockpit volume minimized. That means no space behind the seat, that back bulkhead wrapping around the hips and the feet up against the front bulkhead. I think that a boat should paddle reasonably well with the cockpit area completely flooded and a dysfunctional spray skirt. It is possible to design boats this way. Few are. I am just saying that people with bulkheaded boats should be a little more compulsive about looking for leaks. For me that means no leaks -- air tight (except for the bulkhead vent hole) I am no fan of the float bag approach. But for the open canoe or the skin boat that is the way to go, obviously. Just another trade-off. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Peter Treby wrote: > "A small leak can become a big problem... It is surprising how much > water can come in through a small hole under such circumstances. It is > like a pump. Usually this is a nuisance, but the hole does not have to > be that big to become a problem on a rough day." > Have you ever seen this become a significant problem? I have drilled a 1 > millimetre hole at the top of each bulkhead and each compartment remains > dry, no matter how much rolling, surfing or bashing over waves the day > involves. As Robert Livingston said, it is not that hole which allows water in; it is any hole in the outside of the hull in regular contact with water. In my boats, I do not see leaks into the _bulkheaded_compartments_ any more; rather, I get water "pumping" from the hull flex mechanism, operating on the opening the rudder cables demand, _into_the_cockpit_, where they exit the hull-deck seam. The cables run along the inner edge of the H-shaped rubber extrusion which "seals" the hull and deck.* The hull and deck are mated with a structurally sound overlap of mat and resin on the inside; but, the cables have to penetrate that mat/resin overlap, and after a few hours of rough water travel, I'll have a quart or so of water sloshing around in the cockpit. That quart of water has never been a problem; I know from rescue practice that even a couple gallons of water is not enough to materially affect the handling of my boats. I get wet some from the leakage; but, it _is_ a wet sport, after all. --------- *That H-shaped extrusion is laughable as a "seal"; it just makes the hull-deck seam look good; I think its main function is to maintain registration when the real seal (the mat and resin overlap on the inside) is bedded in place at manufacture. Once, I replaced most of the overlap in a boat which had been oil-canned in surf; the H-extrusion helped me mate the halves, but that was about all. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"...I have been on trips where someone in a commercial boat had a gallon of water accumulate in a day of vaguely rough water paddling without a clearly visible leak even looking at the situation on dry land. That is up there in the "effects handling" category." The backup buoyancy approach has a lot to recommend it. Even with bulkheads and quality rubber hatches, it is comforting to have back up buoyancy inside compartments. If on a long trip, the compartments might be filled with dry bags full of gear. If a day trip, I used to stuff the two larger compartments with an inflatable float bag. I've gotten a bit slack about that lately, as compartments remain dry in all conditions, but the Great Lakes Sinking Story might get me back into that habit. "On my earlier boats I would make hatches that were essentially just two cockpit rims covered with two spray covers, one slightly smaller inside the other. Actually it worked pretty well in an era that good watertight hatches were hard to find ( or some sand would get in the threads or whatever)." Other than VCP rubber hatches, the only other hatch cover I have seen which keeps a compartment completely dry is a vinyl sewn cloth cover with a double thick bungy cord running around a sewn tube at the bottom edge. This goes over a round fibreglass coaming. These are used on "Sea Leopard" kayaks, pictures here: http://raftakayaks.spaces.live.com/default.aspx?_c02_owner=1 Photos 1,2 and 6 in the slides show these hatches. (Some classy paddlers there: check the guy in the red inflatable PFD ;-)) Perhaps surprising that this lightweight system works, but it does, at least in rolling and upright paddling in rough water. I don't have experience of surf capsizes with these, still need to be assured that they hold up against implosion in all conditions, but others say so. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have had very good experiences with the Kajak hatches (glued to the fiberglass with 3M Sealant 5200). (I have used all the round rubber sizes with them all being air-tight.) I have not used their larger Oval ones although the biggest round one at about 9" seems like a beautiful gapping hole if you grew up with the old screw down hatches of my old Baidarka at about 7" and suits me fine as a camping kayaker. On Apr 4, 2007, at 3:02 PM, Peter Treby wrote: > Other than VCP rubber hatches, the only other hatch cover I have > seen which keeps a compartment completely dry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
True. Not being a SOF builder/user yet, I was assuming the context for SOF use as outlined from other, more authoritative modern sources who gave a summary similar to what I posted. I would well imagine that there were a number of Inuit paddler over the millennia who were blown out to sea for days of survival paddling in their trusty steeds, returning to rub noses with the little women at home in the Igloo. Maybe the single guys just rubbed noses with their sled dogs. If I make a SOF (thanks Turner for more input), you bet it will be as watertight as I can make it, even if it weighs a bit more than the usual. Doug >> I'm aware of the SOF issue. I guess I realize the SOF's are better at >> shorter duration trips/outing - not long, dangerous crossing or rough, >> extended off shore paddling. > > Doug, if you can find a copy of Watkins' Last Expedition, by F. Spencer > Chapman, you should read his account of what I recall was a hundred-mile > or more trip in an Inuit-built SOF kayak in weather so rough that Chapman > was forced to roll several times. Even the Inuit he traveled with thought > it was a rough trip. Nonetheless, he stayed afloat, and without flotation > bags, at that. > > Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/4/2007 3:06:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au writes: "Photos 1,2 and 6 in the slides show these hatches. (Some classy paddlers there: check the guy in the red inflatable PFD ;-)) Perhaps surprising that this lightweight system works, but it does, at least in rolling and upright paddling in rough water. I don't have experience of surf capsizes with these, still need to be assured that they hold up against implosion in all conditions, but others say so." Somehow I'm not sure that would work in surf. A friend of mine had his Feathercraft K1 roll top hatch with the cordura/bungy cover blown through in the surf. It needs to be supported underneath. a thread was started on another board some time ago regarding spare hatch covers. Some reported that neoprene and bungie or nylon and bungie do implode in surf and would add that a beachball or paddlefloat underneath for support was a possible resolution. I carry the spare neo and bungy hatch covers for the NDK/Valley sizes. Simple, small and matches what others often use. However, a cockpit cover and 4' of bungy fits all the larger ones you see out there. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the description of the bellows effect that can pump water in through very small holes when waves are alternating squeezing and releasing the hull. Your hatch designs certainly made this effect obvious. Is it okay if I quote you for an update of the "Flotation" manual on our website? For those interested in flotation and leaks I recommend taking a look at that "Flotation" manual. It gets into detail as to the pros and cons of most flotation systems including many examples of system failures I've heard, read or have written about for Sea Kayaker magazine (now in Sea Kayaker's Deep Trouble). I agree with Robert that bulkheads for footrests and wrap around the cockpit stern bulkheads are a good way to increase a kayak's buoyancy. Adding a pod would be even better as it also adds more buoyant volume along the side of the seat and leg area of the kayak. The catch is that unless the kayak is carefully custom fit to the paddler's dimensions you are going to looses a lot of volume to adjustable foot pedals and backrests. I might also point out that a float bag that is big enough can fill up the space lost to the adjustable foot braces (when using a bulkhead) may well provide more buoyancy than a bulkhead in front of the adjustable foot pedals (especially so for a shorter legged paddler). The catch there is that most float bags available aren't nearly big enough for sea kayaks. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: >>>>As Robert Livingston said, it is not that hole which allows water in; it is any hole in the outside of the hull in regular contact with water. In my boats, I do not see leaks into the _bulkheaded_compartments_ any more; rather, I get water "pumping" from the hull flex mechanism, operating on the opening the rudder cables demand, _into_the_cockpit_, where they exit the hull-deck seam. The cables run along the inner edge of the H-shaped rubber extrusion which "seals" the hull and deck.* The hull and deck are mated with a structurally sound overlap of mat and resin on the inside; but, the cables have to penetrate that mat/resin overlap, and after a few hours of rough water travel, I'll have a quart or so of water sloshing around in the cockpit. That quart of water has never been a problem; I know from rescue practice that even a couple gallons of water is not enough to materially affect the handling of my boats. I get wet some from the leakage; but, it _is_ a wet sport, after all. - --------- *That H-shaped extrusion is laughable as a "seal"; it just makes the hull-deck seam look good; I think its main function is to maintain registration when the real seal (the mat and resin overlap on the inside) is bedded in place at manufacture. Once, I replaced most of the overlap in a boat which had been oil-canned in surf; the H-extrusion helped me mate the halves, but that was about all.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Your asterisked section above is an astute observation. Those are the H-shaped extrusion's functions. With a vacuum-bag mold the cockpit opening is closed and must be cut open later to put the cockpit in. That means the kayak can not be seamed together when it is still in the molds (by bolting the mold halves/boat halves together after the edges are trimmed flush with the mold and seaming the inside through the cockpit hole). Therefore, the much thinner boat parts have to be held together somehow, in register, and sealed such that the resin in the seams can't leak out though the gap between the hull and the deck. The vinyl H-molding (and several strips of masking tape to temporarily hold things in place) provides those functions and also means that the seaming job is completely finished once the masking tapes are removed. This is a very efficient and labor saving way to seam a fiberglass kayak together and you end up with a very crisp looking seam. With vacuum-formed plastic kayaks the hull and deck are just glued into the extrusion so no inside seam is even necessary. Contrast this with what must be done with a vacuum-bagged kayak otherwise. The parts must be trimmed and removed from the mold as before but without the vinyl extrusion they must be carefully butted together and taped with masking tape every 4 to 6 inches in a manner that doesn't start to generate a twist to the hull. Next long strips of masking tape are put along the seam to seal it for putting on the fiberglass inside seams (which is pretty much the same job for both types). Once the seams have cured a lot more masking tape must be removed with the non-vinyl extrusion type (outside seams). Now some way must be found to cover the raw edges of the seam where they butt together. In early fiberglass kayaks this was often covered with a long strip of plastic electrical type tape. The downside was that later handling often resulted in the tape getting moved and looking bad. It was pretty easy to replace though. Today most kayaks that don't use vinyl extrusion in the seams are made with fiberglass outside seams. This requires two new long strips of masking tape be placed along the seam at an equal distance apart, by eye, on each side of the kayak. Next someone must sand the shiny waxed gelcoat surface between the strips of masking tape so the fiberglass resin has a roughened surface to get a good grip on when the fiberglass outside seams cure. A layer of fiberglass "selvedge edge" tape is wetted out with resin and laid down between the masking tapes and the masking tapes must be peeled up while the resin is still runny or it won't leave a clean edge (the cured resin overlapping it will tear the tape or the gummy resin will make strings that will mess up a clean edge appearance when the tape is removed). The resin was often pigmented black or some other color and a liquid wax (known as "surface agent") was added to make the outside seams cure completely so they weren't gummy on their surface. When resin cures in contact with air the surface layer of resin molecules are air inhibited and never cure. The downside of this was that the outside seams were pretty rough and could abrade other boats they rubbed against on say a car rack (or ones knuckles if scraped across them). The selvedge edge (where the fibers fold back toward the center to form the tape edge) would often protrude a little above the grade of the rest of the tape aggravating the problem. To solve this many builders mask off the area again and sand of any rough spots that stick up above grade and then cover the whole thing with gelcoat that has a smoothing agent and a surface curing agent in it, making another step in the long process. As you may have guessed fiberglass outside seaming certainly isn't a very efficient process. One builder told me there was eight man hours of labor in just the fiberglass outside seams of his kayaks. A strip of vinyl extrusion doesn't cost as much as even a half hour of labor so why don't those manufactures just use the extrusion? Nobody has a patent on it. If you order the extrusion with a hole down the middle you can even eliminate the plastic tubes that the rudder cables need to run through otherwise (to keep the cables from sawing through the fiberglass where they enter the kayak, any bulkheads they pass through, and your rear compartment's gear bags when worked back and forth as you use the rudder). Now, why is the title of this thread "Pressurize the boat"? Oh yeah, to find leaks. Leaks have been a major problem for H-seams. As Robert described, anywhere that water can puddle, where there is also a tiny hole, the flex of the boat and resulting pumping action draws water into the boat. Dave, above, blamed that process for the water getting into his cockpit but I think he is mistaken about that unless he has a taut and airtight spraydeck. I think his leak is one I observed once in trying to stop multiple leaks in a kayak. The rudder cables working back and forth as they do move water inside the rudder cable tubes until it is running down into the cockpit. My suggestion to Dave is to inject some silicone sealant into the tube where the rudder cables emerge near the back of the kayak and let it cure. This will make the cable hole a lot smaller there (and as the silicone sealant is sawn away enough by the cable that the leak reappears replace it again). The main problem with the H-seam is that the upper half hold water and if there are any pin-hole leaks in the inside seam that water can be pumped into the closed compartments and replaced in the "gutters" by the next wave high enough to lap over the seam. One manufacture even admitted there was a problem with the early H-seams but claimed his new seams fixed the problem. The new seams had the uneven lengths of the H-seam switched around. The shorter side was on the outside. I think the theory was that way there would be no head of water since the water on the outside would pour over the edge of the tape before it could get high enough to go through any holes and pour over the inside of the tape. If I'm correct in that speculation, he didn't count on Robert Livingston's pumping action observation as the new seams were leak prone just as the old had been. So why can't the inside seams adequately seal the kayak with H-molding? Well, sometimes they do. But then again, sometimes they don't. I think the problem is partly due to the inside edge of the H itself. When the inside fiberglass seam tape bridges across that H edge to seam to the hull or deck a bubble line in the resin often forms along the bridged gap. As the resin cure some of those bubbles break and form pin-holes. The other problem is that someone seamed the ends of the kayak by reaching in with a brush on the end of a long stick and having done this many times I can attest that you don't have a good enough angle to really see how well you have done at getting the bubbles out near the ends of the kayak or maybe even in getting the fiberglass seam tape completely saturated way down there. Coincidentally, or not, most seam leaks are near the ends of the kayak. While hatches on many kayaks are not very watertight, if a kayak has H-seams and is getting water inside I'd check the seams first as they are the most likely leak site. Rather than pressurizing the compartment though, I'd just put several gallons of water inside the kayak and rotate it around to see where it leaks out (or stand the kayak on end and fill up the lower three feet of so to give the water a little head to increase the water pressure to help it find the leaks for you. If you find that your H-seams leak, don't despair, there is a rather simple fix. Get a tube of silicone sealant and cut the long applicator tip at an acute angle, like a hypodermic needle. Fill the top half of the H with the sealant by injecting it in as you move your "needle" slowly along the seam. If the vinyl of the H is too stiff to get your "needle" into, warm it up some with a hair dryer to soften it temporarily. Don't bother trying to seal the inside seam with thickened resin, as is often tried. Most likely you will just add several pounds to the kayaks weight and find it is still leaking some. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Matt, Thanks so much for the info on seam construction methods. With all the building info you've provided over the years (and I printed out), I could start a kayak manufacturing business. But there are easier and healthier ways to make a living. Also, I have to give pros like you, John W. and Nick S. a lot of credit for having the guts to contribute to this email list. I know a lot of pros lurk here but aren't willing to post. Duane www.rollordrown.com Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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