Looking for the collected wisdom on the subject of bow lines. I have one that reaches just a bit past the front of my cockpit. In the past, with my frequent swims, I liked having it easily deployable, but now am finding it occasionally tangling in my paddle when I try to roll. Anybody else have this problem? Any novel alternatives out there? I'm thinking maybe I should just switch to a stern line! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<snip> >I'm thinking maybe I should just switch to a stern line! If you have a rudder on your boat, I wouldn't recommend that location. Do you really want to be pulling a chunk of sharp-edged metal - backed by 100 lbs of boat and gear - towards your body through breaking surf? Mark Goff (one of the other Marks) **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wouldn't use any line that occasionally tangles in my paddle when I try to roll. When you really need a roll, something that tangles can become a life or death decision. I'd encourage you to consider why you really need a bow line. I've been paddling for several years from conditions as benign as lakes to dynamic as the open ocean of the Oregon coast and have never found the need for a bow line, (or stern line!) > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:42:33 -0700 > From: "Mark Sanders" <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> > Subject: [Paddlewise] Bow Painters > > Looking for the collected wisdom on the subject of bow lines. I > have one > that reaches just a bit past the front of my cockpit. In the past, > with my > frequent swims, I liked having it easily deployable, but now am > finding it > occasionally tangling in my paddle when I try to roll. Anybody else > have > this problem? Any novel alternatives out there? I'm thinking maybe > I should > just switch to a stern line! > > ------------------------------ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The only time I've used one is on trips to the Channel Islands as they are required if you take the ferry out. You'll need them as they toss the kayaks in the water and make a chain to tow them through the surf. I could see wanting one if you have to launch off a high pier like Sta. Rosa by yourself in challenging conditions as it might be a bit hard getting your tow line unhooked. Not an issue if you take along company. Otherwise its just one more thing to get in the way. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I used to have one on my boat. It was easy to clip onto a log or something for a lunch stop. It interfered with the roll once and away it went. Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> To: PaddleWise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 8:42 pm Subject: [Paddlewise] Bow Painters Looking for the collected wisdom on the subject of bow lines. I have one that reaches just a bit past the front of my cockpit. In the past, with my frequent swims, I liked having it easily deployable, but now am finding it occasionally tangling in my paddle when I try to roll. Anybody else have this problem? Any novel alternatives out there? I'm thinking maybe I should just switch to a stern line! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We use an item called a "paddle park." It consists of about 3 feet of deckline attached to a carabiner on either end. These are just long enough to carry on the deck, doubled over with both carabiners clipped to the deckline on the same side. They are useful for many things - in addition to to clipping your kayak to a log for a quick lunch stop, you can use them for a contact tow - or even for a very short I tow, to hold onto your paddle when doing a rescuer when stopped to take a picture or grab something out of your day hatch, or to pull the boat along in shallow water - or lots of other things. See <http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/pages/retail/safety/Paddle-Park.shtml>. Joan rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > I used to have one on my boat. It was easy to clip onto a log or something for a lunch stop. It interfered with the roll once and away it went. > > Cheers, > > Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Since we'd been using them as examples lately, WW kayaks rarely have bow painters. --Sometimes rear painters set up to be used as towlines. Entanglements are a real risk not only for the paddler but for the boat. I recollect an instance where a wayward rope caught on a submerged strainer and pulled the whole boat under water. -- Nothing the paddler could do. Nonetheless it could become a safety aid as something a swimmer can grab on to. A few paddlers have used a short piece (about 24 inches) of 2 inch wide webbing attached to the rear grabhandle. That's grabbable with cold hands but minimizes entanglement. This could work on the bow as well. I also remember one who used a long piece of webbing that went much closer to the cockpit. That was for something to grab on to in case of a vertical pin -- something unlikely to happen in deeper waters... Joe P. -----Original Message----- >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bow Painters > >I wouldn't use any line that occasionally tangles in my paddle when I >try to roll. When you really need a roll, something that tangles can >become a life or death decision. I'd encourage you to consider why >you really need a bow line. I've been paddling for several years >from conditions as benign as lakes to dynamic as the open ocean of >the Oregon coast and have never found the need for a bow line, (or >stern line!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Back in the day, six or seven feet ago (yes, feet), one WW rescue setup was to mount a cleat on your stern deck behind your right elbow and run a line from the stern to the cleat. You could pull the line out, run it through the front loop of a boat, recleat, and do a close tow. The advent of rescue vests pretty much ended that setup. I also have a short loop of 1" webbing on my stern grab handle, since Dagger saw fit to put the handle over a foot from the end of the boat, making it impossible for a swimmer to find it. For surf work, I use a bow painter of floating line long enough to double under the deck bungies, so i can hold onto it if I have to swim in. Doesn't get a lot of use for that, but as someone says, sometimes you want to be able to tie up to something and leave the boat in the water during a stop. Steve Joe P. wrote: > Since we'd been using them as examples lately, WW kayaks rarely have > bow painters. --Sometimes rear painters set up to be used as > towlines. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>For surf work, I use a bow painter of floating line long enough to double under the deck bungies, so i can hold onto it if I have to swim in. I think if I am swimming in through the surf with my boat I would rather have a hand on the boat so I can push it out of the way if I need to, rather the be in front of the boat dragging it in on a line waiting for the next wave to pick it up and direct it into my face! I have a bow painter I keep in the hatch for those times that I would like to drag my boat in shallow water or tie up to something. I have never understood the need to have one as a permanent fixture on my deck. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Very short bow painter, taut-line hitched to a forward padeye. While on the water during the day, used for brief tie-offs only, and as insurance to a piece of driftwood or a small tree at night in case a helacious windstorm comes up (actually happened once; limb fell off a tree overhead and did a number on my bow; fixed it later). No way could it entangle my paddle during a roll (if I had one). Separate towbelt in the cockpit, sometimes around the waist or shoulder across the torso if I anticipate needing it. Separate fifty-foot line in the cockpit, stashed securely, for longer-tieups at night, etc. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I could see perimeter lines and bow lines being a problem with WW kayaking, but not so much for a surf boat. My friend Ken Fry put a two foot line in the stern of his Wold surf boat just to have something to grab on to after the inevitable surf newbie wet exit. I like to hold on to my boat and let the waves drag me in as they push my boat to shore. Mark -----Original Message----- I think if I am swimming in through the surf with my boat I would rather have a hand on the boat so I can push it out of the way if I need to, rather the be in front of the boat dragging it in on a line waiting for the next wave to pick it up and direct it into my face! Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The tow line csan serve the purpose. Best Rafael Enviado desde mi oficina msvil BlackBerry. de Telcel -----Original Message----- From: Scott Hilliard <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:40:29 To:Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net> Cc:PADDLEWISE <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Bow Painters >>For surf work, I use a bow painter of floating line long enough to double under the deck bungies, so i can hold onto it if I have to swim in. I think if I am swimming in through the surf with my boat I would rather have a hand on the boat so I can push it out of the way if I need to, rather the be in front of the boat dragging it in on a line waiting for the next wave to pick it up and direct it into my face! I have a bow painter I keep in the hatch for those times that I would like to drag my boat in shallow water or tie up to something. I have never understood the need to have one as a permanent fixture on my deck. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer: Back in the day one WW rescue setup was to mount a cleat on your stern deck behind your right elbow and run a line from the stern to the cleat. You could pull the line out, run it through the front loop of a boat,recleat, and do a close tow. I never allowed my students at the Madawaska Kanu Centre to have any lines on their decks once I had a student almost drown because he had the setup Steve describes. If you can pull the line out of the cleat, so can the river. My student was upside down in a big hole and the line came loose, wrapped around his arm and made a nasty scene. I was impressed with the large number of people that had this same setup on their WW boats. I would think a big wave could do the same to any boat with a cleated line. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Joe P. <jpylka_at_earthlink.net> wrote: > Since we'd been using them as examples lately, WW kayaks rarely have bow > painters. None of my w/w boats have deck lines of any sort; no grab lines, nothing but a grab loop fore and aft. I'm not sure many sea kayakers would want that. All of my sea kayaks have side lines forward and aft. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The only time I use a bow line is when I know I will be needing one (seldom needed). Basically, if I'm taking the Island Packers boat out to the islands, they require one or if I know I'm going to have to tie up at a dock. Otherwise, the extra line is in my day hatch and out of the way. Steve Holtzman __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3055 (20080425) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> wrote: > Looking for the collected wisdom on the subject of bow lines. I have one > that reaches just a bit past the front of my cockpit. In the past, with my > frequent swims, I liked having it easily deployable, but now am finding it > occasionally tangling in my paddle when I try to roll. Anybody else have > this problem? Any novel alternatives out there? I'm thinking maybe I should > just switch to a stern line! > I'm trying to visualize just how a line on the forward section of a kayak can tangle with a paddle during a roll. Is it during extended paddle rolls? Is it the outboard part or the inboard part of the paddle that is getting caught in the bow line? I have no bow line on the Coaster but on the Express the bow line leads aft and secures to a cleat with a carabiner. It is taut enough so that I find it difficult to release the beaner when I want to use the bow line. The two cleats on the Mariner Express just forward of the cockpit are pretty handy little doodads. Do you have any fitting on the deck of your boat that you can use to secure that line so it's taut enough that it doesn't flop around when you go inverted? Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I love my painter and use it almost every time I go out. The waters around Tybee Island have many shallow areas so walking with your boat in trail is common. I use a about a 12 foot piece of 6 or 7 mm line and keep the loose end affixed with a taut line hitch knot. I have never had it come loose in surf play or rolling. Hopefully I didnt just jinx myself. http://www.ropeworks.biz/reader/tautline.pdf Jim et al On Apr 25, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > I have no bow line on the Coaster but on the Express the bow line > leads aft > and secures to a cleat with a carabiner. It is taut enough so that > I find it > difficult to release the beaner when I want to use the bow line. > The two > cleats on the Mariner Express just forward of the cockpit are > pretty handy > little doodads. Do you have any fitting on the deck of your boat > that you > can use to secure that line so it's taut enough that it doesn't > flop around > when you go inverted? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't have much experience to have an opinion that is worth the electrons... However, I do have a painter that is tucked under the front deck bungies. I have it so when I stop I can tie the boat rather that hoist it out onto the dock, and I use it regularly. But the discussion has opened my eyes to possibilities I'd not thought of yet, so I will consider how to make it less likely to come undone unexpectedly and cause me problems. Again, I thank the group and it's wisdom for the enlightenment. Mike San Rafael, CA For surf work, I use a bow painter of floating line long enough to double under the deck bungies, so i can hold onto it if I have to swim in. Doesn't get a lot of use for that, but as someone says, sometimes you want to be able to tie up to something and leave the boat in the water during a stop. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't use painters. However, when I do need a line I grab my belt towline and use that. Very useful for lunch breaks. - Daniel *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Our bow painter is very long, as it runs doubled over, through all the eyelets for the deck line, from bow to stern (The deck line is the one you're supposed to grab onto if you have wet exit). But our painter is high tech, being mostly Kevlar, so it is very thin, maybe 2 mm, and still very strong and durable and ended by a hefty toggle. In total it is about 10 meters long, ended by a big toggle. It has been very useful, numerous times, not least as a way to secure the Klepper to something solid. Also useful when you need to drag it along shallows, et cetera. Very quickly deployed, less fast to return to transport mode! Tord -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There was an incident some years ago in this area wherein a kayaker had attached that rear painter to the grabloop with an ordinary carabiner (i.e. no locking mechanism). While towing another kayak he pulled the rope forward to get it out of the cleat. The towed kayak promptly slid back on the rope and pushed its grabloop through the gate, locking the two boats together -- unreachable for the paddler. Fortunately he was able to get to shore where he could get out and unclip it... Joe P. -----Original Message----- >From: James >I never allowed my students at the Madawaska Kanu Centre to have any >lines on their decks once I had a student almost drown because he had >the setup Steve describes. If you can pull the line out of the cleat, >so can the river. My student was upside down in a big hole and the line >came loose, wrapped around his arm and made a nasty scene. I was >impressed with the large number of people that had this same setup on >their WW boats. >I would think a big wave could do the same to any boat with a cleated >line. >Jim Tibensky >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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