Seriously considering building a wooden boat. I'd like to know your reasoning, and are you considering strip or stitch n'glue? What is your use expected yp be, beach launchings, surf, rock gardening? As my kayaking skills have increased, especially having had a little experience in surf zone, I've backed away from composites and stitch n'glue and am considering SOF, particularly a shortened one that I sampled from Wolfgang Brinc during a recent intro to SOF the SaFran group put on. I could really use the light weight, 14' would fit on my mothership. The SOF would seem a good choice, better than the wood a glass for durability on the coarse beaches we have here. Probably wouldn't be the only boat, but I've been disappointed with my Solstice GT and tend to use the ancient Sea Lion, especially when rough landings are expected. Mike San Rafael, CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Mike Euritt <sixteenfeet_at_sbcglobal.net>wrote: > > ........ having had a little experience in surf zone, I've > backed away from composites and stitch n'glue and am considering SOF, > particularly a shortened one that I sampled from Wolfgang Brinc during a > recent intro to SOF the SaFran group put on. I could really use the light > weight, 14' would fit on my mothership.... I have to go a long way for surf, but an SOF in that size range has intrigued me for a long time. I have a Mariner Coaster in fiberglass which is 13' 6" and seriously scarred up. The boat that really intrigues me is the SOF Coaster-clone (named the SC-1) built by Brian Schulz of Cape Falcon Kayaks in Manzanita, OR. Take a look at this link: http://www.capefalconkayak.com/coaster.html . If the first photo doesn't grab ya then nothing will. :) I think Brian will conduct a class in which you build your own kayak - including an SC-1 - at his shop in Oregon. I would really love to do this just to have an SOF Coaster. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > The boat that really intrigues me is the SOF Coaster-clone (named the > SC-1) built by Brian Schulz of Cape Falcon Kayaks in Manzanita, OR. Take > a look at this link: http://www.capefalconkayak.com/coaster.html . If > the first photo doesn't grab ya then nothing will. :) > > I think Brian will conduct a class in which you build your own kayak - > including an SC-1 - at his shop in Oregon. I would really love to do > this just to have an SOF Coaster. Mike/Craig, a local couple did exactly that. I can get a phone number for you if you want to get their reaction to the experience. Brian is a kick-ass paddler. He puts his own SOF boats through the wringer in our surf. He claims he never breaks one. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Seriously considering building a wooden boat. > > I'd like to know your > reasoning, and are you considering strip or stitch n'glue? What is your > use > expected yp be, beach launchings, surf, rock gardening? To get what I want built to the specifications I want. I love to modify and goof around with aspects of recreational "vehicles" be it bike, kayak, or whatever. Just finished fixing up my winter bike. Late, but she's done. So too I've spent countless hours on my fiberglass kayak, fixing it up, modifying, making things better (sometimes getting too complicated for complicated sake). Wood just might be the ideal medium for me. I'd never go for an SOF for a kayak I want to beat on. Yeah, they will take substantial abuse in torqued surf but I'm not convinced about wearability, let alone functionality for longer excursions. Yes, I know what Brian has done. Environmentally, SOF are winners hands down. Doug Lloyd > As my kayaking skills > have increased, especially having had a little experience in surf zone, > I've > backed away from composites and stitch n'glue and am considering SOF, > particularly a shortened one that I sampled from Wolfgang Brinc during a > recent intro to SOF the SaFran group put on. I could really use the light > weight, 14' would fit on my mothership. The SOF would seem a good choice, > better than the wood a glass for durability on the coarse beaches we have > here. Probably wouldn't be the only boat, but I've been disappointed with > my > Solstice GT and tend to use the ancient Sea Lion, especially when rough > landings are expected. > > Mike > San Rafael, CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd never go for an SOF for a kayak I want to beat on. Yeah, they will take substantial abuse in torqued surf but I'm not convinced about wearability, let alone functionality for longer excursions. Yes, I know what Brian has done. Environmentally, SOF are winners hands down. Doug Lloyd ***************************** The one thing that concerns me with the SOF is the lack of floatation, as well as the difficulty in assisted rescue. We had a demo at the spring rough water recovery workshop off Berkeley sponsored by BASK. If the SOF has to bail, returning to the boat is very difficult, requiring that both parties are rehearsed, it also appeared that injury was a real risk as they tried to refloat the SOF. If no skilled assistant is available, reentry and roll seems to be the only viable option, leaving the problem of pumping an unstable boat. Durability is answered to my satisfaction believing that the covering will be replaced every few years, where being stove in with a stitch and glue appears to be, at least in some situations, structurally non repairable in full strength. Shaman Kayaks, ventura has an excellent video of their durability on youtube. I know about the sock that fits in any boat w/o floatation, but it is one more bit of complication, seems to me if you are having to bail, then the sock could come out as well, leaving you in a bad position. I wouldn't go out w/o it, but the idea isn't attractive. I wish my skills were up to one of the strip built boats. But i don't know where I'd use it, probably only on boat show days. With large feet and long legs, I've yet to find a factory made boat that isn't an expedition boat that i can fit in with my sea boots on. Home built does seem to be the answer. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's pretty clear that the ideal boat for rocks and surf is going to be made of plastic. The good news is that there are more boats suitable for this every year. I just hope the economy isn't going to squash the people who are doing this. I think an SOF like the SC-1 would have plenty of durobility for me. I'm finding that my memories of paddling in class IV water are more fun than the reality of doing it any time soon. But my poor little Coaster had so many cracks and blemishes when I bought it that I'm pretty sure whatever it went through would have demolished an SOF. Even so, I'd love to have Doug Lloyd get one out in some weather and then give us what he thinks. Of course, it would be so light he'd have to go join a gym in order to get his weight-training workout (grin). So there's your winter challenge, Doug. Build and test an SOF and let the rest of us know. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry Craig, I like a boat with a bit of meat on - and no, I don't mean seal skin. I did a seal landing on north Storm Island once in moderate swell. The barnacles and other indigenous razor-like creatures terrorized my hull. I'll challenge any SOF paddler to an intact landing dual. And sorry, all my coaching friends don't have a high opinion of strip built kayaks, preferring the perceived advantages of plywood. I have idea for something in between. If I were racing a go-fast rocket boat, I'd join Kirk with a super light C/Fbre stead. Doug Lloyd > It's pretty clear that the ideal boat for rocks and surf is going to be > made of plastic. The good news is that there are more boats suitable for > this every year. I just hope the economy isn't going to squash the people > who are doing this. > > I think an SOF like the SC-1 would have plenty of durobility for me. I'm > finding that my memories of paddling in class IV water are more fun than > the > reality of doing it any time soon. But my poor little Coaster had so many > cracks and blemishes when I bought it that I'm pretty sure whatever it > went > through would have demolished an SOF. Even so, I'd love to have Doug Lloyd > get one out in some weather and then give us what he thinks. Of course, it > would be so light he'd have to go join a gym in order to get his > weight-training workout (grin). > > So there's your winter challenge, Doug. Build and test an SOF and let the > rest of us know. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well I actually thought you might have mellowed out and might use a SOF SC-1 in some more moderate play. You're gonna need something in titanium if you want to go back to your old habits. :P Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Sorry Craig, > > I like a boat with a bit of meat on - and no, I don't mean seal skin. I did > a seal landing on north Storm Island once in moderate swell. The barnacles > and other indigenous razor-like creatures terrorized my hull. I'll challenge > any SOF paddler to an intact landing dual. > > And sorry, all my coaching friends don't have a high opinion of strip built > kayaks, preferring the perceived advantages of plywood. I have idea for > something in between. > > If I were racing a go-fast rocket boat, I'd join Kirk with a super light > C/Fbre stead. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I understand the perception that plywood is tougher than strips, because in its raw form plywood _is_ tougher than strips. However, I find my S&G boats get beat up faster than my strip boats. The reason is, the chines. Any sharp angle is going to end up receiving more wear and tear. This is why the keel of a standard boat often needs a keel strip. Imagine a boat with 3 keels and you have hard chined S&G boat. A stripper can be more rounded, thus spreading out the abuse. If you put enough glass on the wood to protect it from cutting through, strips and plywood should be pretty similar. Multi-chines will also reduce the issue discussed above. Nick On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:39 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > Sorry, all my coaching friends don't have a high opinion of strip > built kayaks, preferring the perceived advantages of plywood. I have > idea for something in between. > > If I were racing a go-fast rocket boat, I'd join Kirk with a super > light C/Fbre stead. > > Doug Lloyd > > >> It's pretty clear that the ideal boat for rocks and surf is going >> to be >> made of plastic. The good news is that there are more boats >> suitable for >> this every year. I just hope the economy isn't going to squash the >> people >> who are doing this. >> Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick and All, I've found that the beauty of S&G plywood kayaks, especially ones with a four-panel hull, is that the keel and chines take most of the abuse and are also the most rugged parts of the kayak. The V shape and thickened epoxy filled in the gap make them strong and resistant to denting and other damaged. Additionally, I protect the keel (taking the most abuse) with a strip of thickened epoxy, so when ever there is wear or a scratch, I do a quick fill-in with more epoxy. Occasionally, a bit of epoxy on the chines also keeps them in good shape. Duane www.rollordrown.com Southern California --- On Fri, 12/19/08, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > However, I find my S&G boats get beat up faster > than my strip boats. The reason is, the chines. Any sharp > angle is going to end up receiving more wear and tear. This > is why the keel of a standard boat often needs a keel strip. > Imagine a boat with 3 keels and you have hard chined S&G > boat. A stripper can be more rounded, thus spreading out the > abuse. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The boat that really intrigues me is the SOF Coaster-clone (named the SC-1) built by Brian Schulz of Cape Falcon Kayaks in Manzanita, OR. Take a look at this link: http://www.capefalconkayak.com/coaster.html . If the first photo doesn't grab ya then nothing will. :) *************************************** Great link, thanks, don't know how that didn't turn up in my previous SOF searches. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Dec 19, 2008, at 9:23 AM, Mike Euritt wrote: > The boat that really intrigues me is the > SOF Coaster-clone (named the SC-1) built by Brian Schulz of Cape > Falcon > Kayaks in Manzanita, OR. Take a look at this link: > http://www.capefalconkayak.com/coaster.html . If the first photo > doesn't > grab ya then nothing will. :) It is posts like this that cause problems. Problems like now I want to build an SC-1 at Cape Falcon Kayak and I want to own a Mariner Coaster and I want Matt to offer a set of plans to build a S&G Coaster and I want a girlfriend named Lola. My wife objects to all of these wants for reasons that my Y chromosome soundly blocks. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Compromise, build the boat and call it Lola. -----Original Message----- It is posts like this that cause problems. Problems like now I want to build an SC-1 at Cape Falcon Kayak and I want a girlfriend named Lola. My wife objects to all of these wants for reasons that my Y chromosome soundly blocks. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oh my god.... I can't stop laughing. On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> wrote: > Compromise, build the boat and call it Lola. > > -----Original Message----- > > It is posts like this that cause problems. Problems like now I want to > build > an SC-1 at Cape Falcon Kayak and I want a girlfriend named Lola. > My wife objects to all of these wants for reasons that my Y chromosome > soundly blocks. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike, A wood boat is no different than a fiberglass or plastic boat in that it will scratch. The difference is the scratches are easier to see. But they don't do any more damage. By "damage" I mean something that will harm the function of the boat. Most scratches can be fixed with a new coat of varnish at some point. Strip-built and stitch and glue kayaks are actually not wood, they are fiberglass boats with a wood core, and any drop or hit that would physically damage the boat's structure would likely do the same damage or worse on a pure fiberglass boat. Again, the difference is that it is easier to see. A "spider crack" in the gel coat on a glass boat is hard to see, but indicates fairly systemic damage to the underlying structure. On a wood boat, the same impact would make a small, localized bruise that may require extensive work to make disappear, but is not all that significant from a structural standpoint. I find that people have a different attitude with wood boats and a scratch that would not bother them on a glass boat is cause for much gnashing of teeth on a wood boat. So, if it is important to you that the boat stay "stunningly beautiful" then wood is probably not the best choice for rough use. If you don't mind a patina of use then wood boats will hold up just fine. You can always paint the boat so you can't see the effects of hits as easily, after all this is what gelcoat is doing for a glass boat. Personally, I think a wood boat, well beat up, still looks better than an old fiberglass boat with faded gelcoat. I've dropped my boats off cars (busted off my mirror - grrr), landed hard on beaches and generally abused my boat then did a quick sanding and brought them to shows. Most people can not pick out the "damage". Nick On Dec 19, 2008, at 9:06 AM, Mike Euritt wrote: > Nick, > > Your explanation of the chines makes perfect sense. > > For my own experience, which does not include any truly light weight > boat, the issues I have with the wooden boats is that epoxy finish. > I've dropped my heavy (65#) plastic boat off my van three times, > then the somewhat lighter Solstice GT blew off the van once, a gust > of wind took it off before I had a chance to tie it down. Then there > is the scratches and scrapes from even calm beach launchings and > landings. Not even talking about rock gardening. My plastic SeaLion > was a visual disaster when I got it and the f/g GT has need of > cosmetic work after 1 season of light use on a very sandy beach, > Sausalito's Schoonmaker. > > Except for the lighter weight, I don't see a durability advantage to > either wooden construction techniques over a ready made glass boat > in transport or landing and.launching. The SOF appears to address my > concerns for this abuse a bit better. But i have zero experience > with them, either. Weight is a driving factor in deciding on my next > kayak. > > But then, there is the satisfaction of having built it yourself and > the stunning beauty of especially the strip built boats. > > Am I missing something in my very general assumptions? > > Thanks > > Mike Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Petty much what I've observed too. I think you have to bulk up the chines to get the strength similar to the stripper. Pound for pound, the stripper is the better boat. The chines on my S&G are so tough, they would not be an issue. However, the kayak weight is 55 pounds. Now a fir plywood kayak - that would be tough. BTW, Nick. thoughts I shared about strippers were those of others, not my own. I still need to see for myself how all this plays out in reality. I suspect strippers are not as tough as S&G when the S&G is done right, but nor are they as fragile as some paddlers think, especially with respect to the curved surface spreading the load. Blunt force protection should be good with a stripper. However, like an egg shell, there is a lot of load bearing strength, but pierces easily. When I think of kayak abuse, it is always puncture resistence I think about (all other aspects of strength and wear hopefully addressed by good technique and materials. Doug Lloyd >I understand the perception that plywood is tougher than strips, because >in its raw form plywood _is_ tougher than strips. However, I find my S&G >boats get beat up faster than my strip boats. The reason is, the chines. >Any sharp angle is going to end up receiving more wear and tear. This is >why the keel of a standard boat often needs a keel strip. Imagine a boat >with 3 keels and you have hard chined S&G boat. A stripper can be more >rounded, thus spreading out the abuse. > > If you put enough glass on the wood to protect it from cutting through, > strips and plywood should be pretty similar. Multi-chines will also > reduce the issue discussed above. > Nick > > > On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:39 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > >> Sorry, all my coaching friends don't have a high opinion of strip built >> kayaks, preferring the perceived advantages of plywood. I have idea for >> something in between. >> >> If I were racing a go-fast rocket boat, I'd join Kirk with a super light >> C/Fbre stead. >> >> Doug Lloyd >> >> >>> It's pretty clear that the ideal boat for rocks and surf is going to >>> be >>> made of plastic. The good news is that there are more boats suitable >>> for >>> this every year. I just hope the economy isn't going to squash the >>> people >>> who are doing this. >>> > > Nick Schade > > Guillemot Kayaks > 54 South Rd > Groton, CT 06340 > USA > Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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