GGSKS, Day 1 1/11/09 Someone once said, the coldest winter I ever spent was a summer I spent in San Francisco. That was in the back of my mind when I first contemplated going to Golden Gate Sea Kayak Symposium scheduled for this weekend. If the summers are that cold, winter cant be too great! So I took stock of my paddling accessories: meager wet gear, a rather hard to maneuver boat, I don t own a paddle jacket. In the end I decided I just couldnt afford to go; better to save the money to invest in my plan to buy a new boat that can better handle the condition Id like to play in. But literally at the last minute something came up to allow me to go for free if I wanted; darn right I did. Duane was going to be assisting on some of the paddles and we had been talking about the great weather expected for a winters day: water 52 degree, air temp pushing 60 with sunny skies predicted, minor winds. He being what Id consider an advanced paddler and familiar with me and how I handle colder water, I asked him if I was up to it and he said go for it! (insert Jaws theme song here) Even so, I decided it would be prudent after nine years of paddling to buy my first paddling jacket. For the first two days, I signed up for tidal race classes. I really wanted to do the advanced coastal paddle, but the class description said they might be paddling twenty miles and I didnt want to push myself that hard. The night before the paddle, I found out Duane was assisting on the advanced paddle and 3 of my usual paddling partners were also going. Duane was talking with Andy, the local water knowledge guy who was planning the trip and it turns out they were only doing 10 miles and the conditions were looking great, so I switched over to that trip lusting to see the SF coast. The call was to be on the beach ready to paddle for the 8:30 safety briefing. The beach was an organized madhouse of colorful Gortex. After Sean Morley broke the champagne bottle on the First Annual GGSKS, we got to meet our Trip Leader(TL) on the day. I think I should say trip leaders have little means to assess the abilities of people theyre heading out to paddle with and the same is true of paddlers assessing a trip leader. Having stars after your name surely suggests abundant knowledge, but my first impression of our TL was based on him stating he was unfamiliar with the local water, adding nothing poignant to pre-paddle conversation and while we were ready to paddle at 8:30, he didnt hit the water till 10. The OC crew consisted of Duane, Bob, Dave and me and perhaps we were a motley crew. Bob and Dave were in sandals as Bob cant fit shoes into his skinny boat too well! I was in my thermal waterproof socks that I bought when I first started kayaking and never wear, booties, a shorty farmer-john and although I brought my wetsuit top, decided to just wear my new blindingly yellow PJ. Finally we were off, greeted by the magnificent sight of the Golden Gate bridge and the San Francisco cityscape. Thirteen kayaks headed out, twelve of them sleek British inspired numbers and then SOMEONE with a Wisconsin lake boat with a wind vane on the stern. Dave and I buddied up as we headed for the bridge, although we seemed to be stopping every few hundred yards for calls to group up. At last we cleared the bridge and TL asked us to do a circular paddle just past the bridge to warm us up and maybe get a look at the group. The Lollygagger took its rightful orbit outside the British Stars. We continued on with TL calling for a few more meet ups before we even hit Point Bonita; we seemed to be doing more bobbing than paddling. Dave, Bob and I were all getting hot under the clear sun and I looked forward to a cooling breeze once past the point. At Point Bonita, it was about eleven and TL started listing the options we had once we left the harbor. Stinson Beach was our target for the shuttle ride home, but Rodeo Beach and Muir Beach were possible emergency landing sites just in case and I think Bolinas was mentioned as an alternative another mile up if Stinson looked to rough. We had about 7NM to get to Stinson. From this point, I can only say I was flabbergasted as the TL started listing all the calamities that could befall us. I listened as he spoke of the possibility of strong winds, dumping shore breaks and 5 footers hitting Stinson. He said if we couldnt land at Stinson, we might not make it to Bolinas till 5! As he started talking about his gut feeling telling him the paddle was just too dangerous, my main thought was: how can you call for an advanced paddle in the middle of winter in SF and not think these are the absolute perfect conditions? The group was mostly silenthow do you argue with a 5 Star gut feeling? TL said the group was a Democracyas long as what he said goes, although he claims that was a joke, but I didnt buy it. You dont out vote a *****TL, he lays down the law and you just decide your opinion of his decision and try to fathom how he ever came up with it! No one was sent outside the point to actually address the conditions as they existed. When it appeared hed pretty much made up his mind to cancel, he asked Andy the local waters expert what he thought and he at least was able to say hed go on with the trip as long as he felt comfortable with the people he was paddling with. So the decision was to head back through the Golden Gate Bridge against the heavy tide, rather then sit on a beach 3 hours waiting for the tide to slack. I have to say, I was steaming as we headed back to the bridge. I tried to imagine how TL could come to this decision. The three miles wed already put in were uneventful, but perhaps hed seen something I hadnt? Certainly possible. Perhaps there was a weak paddler in the group I didnt notice, but we had a safety boat available, why not have them haul away the weaker paddler and let the group go on? We headed back and I tried not to let too many expletives get above my breath. I figured if we werent going to paddle the coast, at least Id get to try to reenter the Gate against the maximum tide, the one thing Id heard several times earlier as the thing that would commit the group to making the coastal paddle once theyd cleared the bridge. Now the night before, rightly or wrongly, I had deemed myself up for a SF coastal paddle, but had someone asked me if Id like to join a class trying to enter the Golden Gate at maximum ebb, I would have said Im not up for that. I have never been in a real tidal race and our condition here in my local waters are quite benign, hence the drive to SF. But I was excited to try. TL went through first to scope it out and then came back on out and Kim, a strong paddler, was the first of the mortals to go in. He seemed to pick a good line, disappeared for a moment, but then popped out in the race. We watched for a minute or two impressed with his ability to hold his ground, but it was clear hed missed his chance. I dont know if anyone made it through on their first try, but I know Duane and Bob took at least two tries and Bob got to roll under the bridge for his efforts! Dave got sent back on his first effort and I was ready to try my third. Although I had no experience, I was able to make the first eddy each time and at least try to figure out the next move. For my third time, I decide to try to follow Duane as closely as I could to see how he handled it. It probably wasnt the best thing to do for Duane, because as I made the first eddy, he got sent back from the next race and we got a bit crowded in the small eddy. Duane got the Point Bennett turned around easy enough, but now I was turned around and wondering how to get back facing upstream without getting sucked back out. TL yelled at me to stick my stern into the current and his good advice had me ready for the next challenge. Id garnered a bit of wisdom on my previous tries, so I waited for a bit of swell to come into the harbor to help me past the water swirling over the submerged rock in front of me. I timed it well and made it past the standing wave and tried to hold my ground for one more swell to push me to safety. I was so sure Id made it till that sucking rock sucked me back and I ended up upside with the current pressing me between the rock and the cliff. Pushed against the cliff, I really didnt know how to roll up, so I bailed and found myself back in the eddy. I tried pushing my boat forward wondering if I could pull it past the next snag, what else did I have to lose, but after a little progress, me and my boat got to swima euphemism holding on to your boat as the current floats you under the Golden Gate Bridge. I was POed to be the only person to mess up, but not at all concerned with my swim. TL and a couple others were still on the other side and had me back in the boat toot sweet. After my three tries and a swim, TL called for the skiff to come get me and I wasnt going to argue. Dave decided to keep me company and ride back in too and we both landed from cold water into hot water. We both got ourselves and the boats in the skiff where we found Sean and another safety officer. We headed back and Sean asked me why wed cancelled the trip and I told him TL had been worried about wind and waves at Stinson. I asked him if he knew what the conditions were like and he said absolutely perfect. What wasnt so perfect in Seans mind was the way Dave and I were dressed! We were both in shorties, but at least I had shoes on!!! He said we were totally inappropriately dressed for a coastal paddle and shouldnt have been allowed on the trip. I tried to explain that Dave and I both have problems with overheating and handle cold water well. That didnt impress him, so I told him Duane said I could!! That just afforded Duane a talking to later in the day. So to add insult to injury, we rode back thinking we wouldnt be allowed back on the water the rest of the weekend. On the beach we had a debriefing with Sean present. TL talked about his worry that the conditions were bad, but some said there should have been a way to find out. The decision to head in against the max ebb was talked about a bit and then TL brought up the question of who exactly is an advanced paddler. Perhaps, he said, some people who convince themselves theyre ready for and advanced paddle really arent! Gee, hard to argue against that! My question would be how did you determine who wasnt capable on a three mile paddle through benign conditions at a pace that barely out paced the tide? Would a good way of determining the ability of a paddler to handle coastal conditions on a perfect day be the ability to make it through the Golden Gate Bridge at maximum ebb?? In that case there was only one failure, but that was after the decision was made. I can only wonder if the bias for all boats British might taint some peoples views of a paddlers qualifications to paddle the coast, but I fully admit, Im thin skinned. I hope John Winters isnt. In a smaller group later, I got into more of a conversation with TL and asked him if he felt someone was not up to the paddle, would he let the person know now so he wouldnt make that mistake again? I got no answer. There are a bunch of answers Im never going to get. I dont have any reason to think I was the cause of canceling the trip other than the concerns I had myself before I left and my own anxieties. I know my boat wouldnt be the choice for most people to play with in a tidal race, but I certainly think its capable of a coastal paddle. I know a lot of people are going to agree I was underdressed, but thats my personal risk assessment and if you as TL dont like it leave me on the beach. Why this paddle was cancelled is unfathomable by me and I dont know if Ill ever have such an opportunity to paddle the SF coast again, but at least no one can take away my Golden Gate swim! Dave and I were left to wonder whether we should bother to show up the next day, seeing as we were wearing everything we had and both of us had checked with people connected with the symposium to see if we were OK. I was left with my confidence shot and only the generosity of the person who gave me the trip kept me from going home. I agree, when a TL decides a paddle is a no go, you have no choice but to pi$$ and moan and here you have mine. And I have no problem with Sean Morely demanding the type of attire he feels appropriate for his symposium. If I disagree, I can find somewhere else to paddle. Perhaps we mere mortals shouldnt question the opinions of kayaking legends, but if thats the case, we should all be paddling Toksooks. Mark Sanders (Paddle jacket heading to the closet till my arctic excursion) www.sandmarks.net <http://www.sandmarks.net/> # *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, Your saga is an illustrative object lesson in how not to conduct an "all comers" paddle. It bothers me quite a bit that someone with the native enthusiasm you have for paddling had such an experience. Even recognizing that we are only getting one side of the story, it is plain that the premise for such a group paddle was a mightily flawed one. There is no point in an extensive "lessons learned" analysis, for the lessons are ones which club managers and directors have faced over and over. On cold water, such as what the group faced, things can go sour in a hurry. For the leader not to require or seek definitive evidence of the competence and preparedness of paddlers for such a trip is nuts. The situation was one ripe for frustration and a confrontation such as what occurred. For guidelines used by the oldest, best established club in the Portland, OR area, Google up OOPS (aka Oregon Ocean Paddling Society). Their manifold requirements and delineation of trip ratings might serve as a useful matrix for the symposium organizers in future. I've been that trip leader, in situations similar to the one you faced, in the days when I was not so conservative in my paddling style. My epiphany occurred some 13-14 years ago, when I aborted a downriver trip on the Columbia in the face of deteriorating conditions ... but which were not apparent at the site where we bagged it. The folks on the trip were friends, relatives, and one or two hangers-on. A couple grumbled at having their trip "ruined." That experience was the nail in the coffin for me: I no longer lead all-comers trips. I only paddle with folks I know, or who are represented to me as competent by folks I know and trust. I regret what happened to you. I don't think you were the "goat" at all. Maybe you took a swim in conditions others might regard as easy. Stuff like that happens to everybody. It was a bad situation. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, Receiving a real reason why he cancelled the trip would surely have eased the pain instead of the baloney he seemed to be selling at the point. You're right, trying to assess the capabilities of an "all comers" paddle seems it would create problems, but you'd think a 5 star instructor would take that into account before he took the money to lead the class. I figured my ticket in was that fact that Duane was one of the leaders and is familiar with my abilities, but I don't know about the others. I'm pretty sure I was the most upset of the bunch, so maybe I'm just a bit testy! Still, I have to say, this seemed the only snag on the day and most of the GGSKS went off great. My next day was great and I'll get that written up next, but I had to vent first after fulminating in the car on the 7 hour trip home. Sean seems really focused on creating a great event and having Jen involved is a great plus. I think any snags from the first year are going to be smoothed softer than wet seal skin for the next go round. Mark -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Dave Kruger Mark, Your saga is an illustrative object lesson in how not to conduct an "all comers" paddle. It bothers me quite a bit that someone with the native enthusiasm you have for paddling had such an experience. Even recognizing that we are only getting one side of the story, it is plain that the premise for such a group paddle was a mightily flawed one. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, In a short time, I'm sure my frustrating day will turn into a great memory, but I'll always think the decision made was wrong. You're right though, I think the spring tide was at its highest of the year, but I'm not positive. Jen is always great and soothed my ruffled feathers and I guess talked Sean into letting me paddle the next day despite my nakedness, although he certainly still stressed proper dress to the Gortexed the next morn. I figured that was still for my benefit, as he seemed to be preaching to the choir. I haven't had a lot of formal instruction and quite a bit that I've had I've found disappointing, but on my next day I had good instructors who make you realize there is a lot you can learn out there. The good ship Lollygagger gave me her hundred days last year, so now it's time for her to visit Craigslist and find a new home. Perhaps with a new boat, I'll have more confidence to explore more of the CA coast that I know I've neglected. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd Mark, Thanks for the candid remarks. Sounds like there was some learning going on. To me that's a great symposium. I think there's big spring tides on now so the GGB waterway would be expected to be moving along. I wonder if Jen would have done things differently. If you want to tour some of that coast, why can't you head back out some other time? I'd be all over that coast if I lived in California. As for symposia, me being on the sea does pretty much most of the teaching. DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm sure you pulled something out of the symposium that was useful. I doubt I'd ever benefit from a symposium these days - but I'd love to spend some quality time with these higher-end coaches in a more informal session where one can go beyond the orthodoxy of isntructor/student and gleam some insights into these better than best paddlers who have the credentials issued in real experience. Mark, you're a pretty special guy and I'm sure most of us on the list felt your dissapointment with your 1st day. But you did get some quality swim time in and we all know how much you like swimming from your boat, er, let me rephrase that... :-) Hope to meet you some day. There's lots of good paddlers down your way; lots of skilled kayakers...but I don't know too many paddlers that have as much fun with the sport as you. Just remember that. Doug Doug, > > In a short time, I'm sure my frustrating day will turn into a great > memory, > but I'll always think the decision made was wrong. You're right though, I > think the spring tide was at its highest of the year, but I'm not > positive. > Jen is always great and soothed my ruffled feathers and I guess talked > Sean > into letting me paddle the next day despite my nakedness, although he > certainly still stressed proper dress to the Gortexed the next morn. I > figured that was still for my benefit, as he seemed to be preaching to the > choir. > I haven't had a lot of formal instruction and quite a bit that I've had > I've > found disappointing, but on my next day I had good instructors who make > you > realize there is a lot you can learn out there. > The good ship Lollygagger gave me her hundred days last year, so now it's > time for her to visit Craigslist and find a new home. Perhaps with a new > boat, I'll have more confidence to explore more of the CA coast that I > know > I've neglected. > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Lloyd > Mark, > > Thanks for the candid remarks. Sounds like there was some learning going > on. > To me that's a great symposium. > > I think there's big spring tides on now so the GGB waterway would be > expected to be moving along. > > I wonder if Jen would have done things differently. > > If you want to tour some of that coast, why can't you head back out some > other time? I'd be all over that coast if I lived in California. > > As for symposia, me being on the sea does pretty much most of the > teaching. > > DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
So sorry to hear about your bad experience at the symposium, Mark. From your description of the events that took place there I could offer up considerable criticisms on so many levels, but I am reluctant to do since, as Dave already pointed out, we are only getting one side of the story here. I would love to hear Duane's take on the days events. All that aside, I would like to toss out for your consideration that this was a commercial trip, and such trips do require special considerations that are perhaps not as prevalent in your club trips. Once money is involved the liability issues surface front and center and the leaders tend to err on the side of caution. Certainly waivers were signed, but nobody really wants to have to put them to the test. You said that the trip was listed as being a possible twenty miler, but you later learned it would be only half of that. Could it be that it was listed as a possible twenty miler precisely to weed out less experienced and/or weaker paddlers? After all, what was your first reaction when you heard it might be a twenty mile paddle? Please understand that I am not trying to pick on you here, Mark, but since I have only your side of the events to consider I really cannot comment on what was going on with the trip leader. A criteria that I have frequently relied on is, "how will this look written up in an article in Sea Kayaker Magazine." You know, as a paid leader with considerable experience, I will be the one to whom all the fingers will be pointing if things go bad. This can be a tremendous burden, but one I have to bear. The next time your out paddling with a group try to imagine that you are in charge and your own reputation as well as the reputation of the company you are working for is on the line with this trip. Then see if that doesn't temp you to do thing a little differently. Hang in there Mark :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott Hilliard wrote: > A criteria that I have frequently relied on is, "how will this look > written up in an article in Sea Kayaker Magazine." You know, as a paid > leader with considerable experience, I will be the one to whom all the > fingers will be pointing if things go bad. This can be a tremendous > burden, but one I have to bear. The next time your out paddling with a > group try to imagine that you are in charge and your own reputation as > well as the reputation of the company you are working for is on the line > with this trip. Then see if that doesn't temp you to do thing a little > differently. Scott, I've been in your shoes, guiding in the mountains, many decades of liability litigation ago. I think I understand where you are coming from: a for-hire guide has to make sure he/she lays out the risks plainly in full-on CYA fashion, not just to make sure that participants are fully warned, but so that the groundwork is laid to protect everyone from legal repercussions. I'm for cutting some slack for folks who lead trips. That, however, does not answer several questions raised by Mark's description: 1. Were there definite guidelines for immersion protection wear? If not, why not? 2. If the trip leader felt a participant was not up to the task, once on the water, why did he not surgically remove the participant by placing him/her on the chase boat and proceed? 3. Why was so much time onshore wasted before launching ... given that a group of uncertain composition needed to pass some defined barriers to reach their safe takeout beach(es)? 4. Was there a clear statement of skills needed by each participant as a floor for participation? If not, why not? Finally, to return to "... how will this look if written up ... in Sea kayaker Magazine?" Stuff happens on the water. Most of us judge how well a situation is handled, not whether or not trouble was encountered. Contrast Mark's account with Rob Gibbert's detailed, eloquent tale (SK, August 2008; see below) of a trip gone bad in the San Juans. Rob enumerates a completely different culture and practice of sea kayaking trip-leading behavior, in which it is dog-plain the group was tightly organized; had prepared for cold water rescues; was able to execute alternate strategies; and, had a pre-planned, agreed-on bailout agreement for group separation. All were important in overcoming an error in judgment made by the trip leader (allowing an under-prepared participant to continue). How did it look? Beautiful. Rob's group was prepared and ready for contingencies. They laid the groundwork for success. Everyone went home intact. [Rob's article: http://www.seakayakermag.com/2008/October/capesize.htm ] -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jan 12, 2009, at 9:07 AM, Dave Kruger wrote: > Contrast Mark's account with Rob Gibbert's detailed, eloquent tale > (SK, August 2008; see below) of a trip gone bad in the San Juans. > Rob enumerates a completely different culture and practice of sea > kayaking trip-leading behavior, in which it is dog-plain the group > was tightly organized; had prepared for cold water rescues; was > able to execute alternate strategies; and, had a pre-planned, > agreed-on bailout agreement for group separation. All were > important in overcoming an error in judgment made by the trip > leader (allowing an under-prepared participant to continue). Snipped from the article in SKM, "Rob Gibbert is a hazardous location lighting consultant." I bet his daily work keeps his mind tuned into what can go wrong. Interesting occupation Rob. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott, Duane is smart. He says he's limiting his imput on the Symposium to photos!!! He said he looked forward to my write up, but I'm not sure he'll comment on it. But he was on the side of management on this paddle and, rightly, that brings out his conservative side. After the paddle, he did say he had some concerns about the forecast for winds to pick up during the day and they did-at about midnight. Anyway, all the nice comments I've received here have eased me through the pain!! -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Scott Hilliard ... we are only getting one side of the story here. I would love to hear Duane's take on the days events. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Folks, I seem to have deleated the start of what looks like an interesting thread. Blame the mass-deleat on Holiday Spam filling my inbox. Could someone be kind enough to re-post (or send back channel) the start of this adventure. Cheers John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As Pam can tell anyone (and probably frequently does) I make a poor Trip Leader; or trip follower for that matter. Most of my paddling is solo and getting used to a group is not easy for me. I've gone to a bunch of Port Townsend seminars and have never once joined a group on the water. I forget to turn on the very radio I insisted everyone carry. I am overly cautious about some things and stupidly reckless about others. I often paddle faster than the group and just as often dawdle along some shoreline. I have no stars of any sort... and was conspicuously short of stars in grade school too. So I'm certainly no expert on group paddles; but I read Mark's essay and then read Pam's remarks (under "HA!) and I have to wonder. Pam's points seem to me to be right on the mark and she *is* an expert on taking seminars (as far as I can tell she's never passed one up). She got everything right, in my opinion. But I think there is a facet to this that everyone is passing up. But rather than just tell you what I think that is I'm going to babble on for a bit. Bear with me. When I was young... shortly after the Civil War... our society was one which I have come to think of as "competence based". The first Project Engineer I ever worked for had taken a correspondence course in civil engineering and surveying. Let me emphasize that. He didn't have a BS in Civil Engineering. He didn't have a Professional Engineerr's certificate. He had simply taken a home study course early in his career. But here he was, responsible for making sure that the I-405 and I-520 interchange in the Bellevue/Kirkland area east of Seattle was built correctly and he did exactly that. He was competent. If he hadn't been competent, home study course or not, he would have never been promoted to Project Engineer. His competence outweighed his lack of credentials. Some time ago I began to realize that our society is no longer competence based. My old boss would never be promoted to Project Engineer nowadays. In fact, he'd barely make the grade as a technician. Our society is now mainly credentials based. There are no longer many fields that don't have credentials attached to them and a quick perusal of the "help wanted" ads will quickly educate you on a bunch of them. There is the BA, the MBA, the CNE (sadly outdated), the MSCE, the CSE, the PhD, the A+, the .... well, you get the idea.. Shortly after I had to fire two individuals with copious credentials it occured to me that we had a problem. These guys were clearly incompetent. Yet they had credentials that said they could do the job. Why would that be? That would be because handing out credentials has become a profit center. If Microsoft or Cisco makes money from every credential it hands out - and if other people make money training people to take those tests to get that credential - then we might be creating a problem for ourselves. Eventually the money wins. If credentials are a profit center then you have to walk a fine line. If getting the credentials is too hard then no one will bother to ante up the money because, well, what's the point? But if they're too easy then just about anyone can get them. And sooner or later the money becomes the point and once that happens someone will realize that there are a lot more "just about anyones" out there than there are people who could pass a tough test. I think our society has gotten to that point. And I also think that the recent economic collapse undrescores it. After all, the bankers and stock brokers and politicians all had lots of credentials. If they hadn't they wouldn't have gotten their jobs. And because they had credentials they must have known what they were doing. Too bad we couldn't have just let the credentials solve the problems. Because the people they were attached to were mostly incompetent. But I digress.... It's undoubtedly true that you can judge a credential much easier than you can judge competence and it can be argued safely that the Human Resources Department of any corporation would be incapable of judging any sort of competence at all. So credentials have filtered their way into every facet of society until you can't do practically anything any more unless you have some sort of credential. This includes graduating from kindergarten. And paddling. Now here... if you've been paying attention... is where I cleverly bring everything together. Oh, rats... you're way ahead of me aren't you? Mark's Trip Leader's credentials were the 5 stars and Mark's essay mentions this several times. He even says that you just don't argue with someone who has 5 stars. And he was right; no one did. Maybe he paid too much attention to the stars and not enough attention to the individual who was about to lead him through some of the most treacherous waters in North America. Mark only mentioned what I think was the one key to this puzzle once: the TL was not familiar with the area. The area in question is one of the most hazardous waterways in North America. I've been through the tidal race at the Golden Gate in 700-foot tankers and was awed by the spectacle. No one should ever - EVER - follow anyone through the Golden Gate in a kayak who wasn't familiar with it no matter how many stars he has after his name. And that goes for any serious water.Or on skis down a ski slope for that matter. Or up a mountain. Not only that, but I suspect the TL knew he had a problem. His late start, the constant calls to group up, the dithering around, the nervous chatter about all the dangers they could face... all of that speaks volumes to me that the TL was nervous about the entire trip. If he had been nervous about one or two paddlers he could have simply told them that they were, in his opinion, unprepared and either left them on the beach or put them into the safety boat and continued on. I think that at some point the TL finally realized that he was out of his depth here and turned the group around. Too bad that turning them around probably led them into a far greater danger than simply continuing. Who knows what would have happened if they hadnt had that safety boat along. The major lesson to be learned here is that the Trip Leader isn't God. He's not the only one with the ability to judge competence and cancel or abort a trip. Every paddler in the group has the option to turn around and walk away. There were warning signs that Mark's TL - who may have been competent in many things - was not competent to lead this trip; and knew it. Credentials aren't everything. What really counts is competence. Especially when your life is on the line. Craig Jungers With practically no credentials at all in Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> As Pam can tell anyone (and probably frequently does) I make a poor > Trip > Leader; or trip follower for that matter. Most of my paddling is > solo and > getting used to a group is not easy for me. I've gone to a bunch of > Port > Townsend seminars and have never once joined a group on the water. I > forget > to turn on the very radio I insisted everyone carry. I am overly > cautious > about some things and stupidly reckless about others. I often paddle > faster > than the group and just as often dawdle along some shoreline. I have > no > stars of any sort... and was conspicuously short of stars in grade > school > too. > > So I'm certainly no expert on group paddles; but I read Mark's essay > and > then read Pam's remarks (under "HA!) and I have to wonder. Pam's > points seem > to me to be right on the mark and she *is* an expert on taking > seminars (as > far as I can tell she's never passed one up). She got everything > right, in > my opinion. But I think there is a facet to this that everyone is > passing > up. > > But rather than just tell you what I think that is I'm going to > babble on > for a bit. Bear with me. > > When I was young... shortly after the Civil War... our society was > one which > I have come to think of as "competence based". The first Project > Engineer I > ever worked for had taken a correspondence course in civil > engineering and > surveying. Let me emphasize that. He didn't have a BS in Civil > Engineering. > He didn't have a Professional Engineerr's certificate. He had simply > taken a > home study course early in his career. But here he was, responsible > for > making sure that the I-405 and I-520 interchange in the > Bellevue/Kirkland > area east of Seattle was built correctly and he did exactly that. He > was > competent. If he hadn't been competent, home study course or not, he > would > have never been promoted to Project Engineer. His competence > outweighed his > lack of credentials. > > Some time ago I began to realize that our society is no longer > competence > based. My old boss would never be promoted to Project Engineer > nowadays. In > fact, he'd barely make the grade as a technician. Our society is now > mainly > credentials based. There are no longer many fields that don't have > credentials attached to them and a quick perusal of the "help > wanted" ads > will quickly educate you on a bunch of them. There is the BA, the > MBA, the > CNE (sadly outdated), the MSCE, the CSE, the PhD, the A+, the .... > well, you > get the idea.. > > Shortly after I had to fire two individuals with copious credentials > it > occured to me that we had a problem. These guys were clearly > incompetent. > Yet they had credentials that said they could do the job. Why would > that be? > That would be because handing out credentials has become a profit > center. If > Microsoft or Cisco makes money from every credential it hands out - > and if > other people make money training people to take those tests to get > that > credential - then we might be creating a problem for ourselves. > Eventually > the money wins. > > If credentials are a profit center then you have to walk a fine > line. If > getting the credentials is too hard then no one will bother to ante > up the > money because, well, what's the point? But if they're too easy then > just > about anyone can get them. And sooner or later the money becomes the > point > and once that happens someone will realize that there are a lot more > "just > about anyones" out there than there are people who could pass a > tough test. > > I think our society has gotten to that point. And I also think that > the > recent economic collapse undrescores it. After all, the bankers and > stock > brokers and politicians all had lots of credentials. If they hadn't > they > wouldn't have gotten their jobs. And because they had credentials > they must > have known what they were doing. Too bad we couldn't have just let > the > credentials solve the problems. Because the people they were > attached to > were mostly incompetent. But I digress.... > > It's undoubtedly true that you can judge a credential much easier > than you > can judge competence and it can be argued safely that the Human > Resources > Department of any corporation would be incapable of judging any sort > of > competence at all. So credentials have filtered their way into every > facet > of society until you can't do practically anything any more unless > you have > some sort of credential. This includes graduating from kindergarten. > And > paddling. > > Now here... if you've been paying attention... is where I cleverly > bring > everything together. Oh, rats... you're way ahead of me aren't > you? > > Mark's Trip Leader's credentials were the 5 stars and Mark's essay > mentions > this several times. He even says that you just don't argue with > someone who > has 5 stars. And he was right; no one did. Maybe he paid too much > attention > to the stars and not enough attention to the individual who was > about to > lead him through some of the most treacherous waters in North > America. > > Mark only mentioned what I think was the one key to this puzzle > once: the TL > was not familiar with the area. > > The area in question is one of the most hazardous waterways in > North > America. I've been through the tidal race at the Golden Gate in > 700-foot > tankers and was awed by the spectacle. No one should ever - EVER - > follow > anyone through the Golden Gate in a kayak who wasn't familiar with > it no > matter how many stars he has after his name. And that goes for any > serious > water.Or on skis down a ski slope for that matter. Or up a > mountain. > > Not only that, but I suspect the TL knew he had a problem. His late > start, > the constant calls to group up, the dithering around, the nervous > chatter > about all the dangers they could face... all of that speaks volumes > to me > that the TL was nervous about the entire trip. If he had been > nervous about > one or two paddlers he could have simply told them that they were, > in his > opinion, unprepared and either left them on the beach or put them > into the > safety boat and continued on. > > I think that at some point the TL finally realized that he was out > of his > depth here and turned the group around. Too bad that turning them > around > probably led them into a far greater danger than simply continuing. > Who > knows what would have happened if they hadnt had that safety boat > along. > > The major lesson to be learned here is that the Trip Leader isn't > God. He's > not the only one with the ability to judge competence and cancel or > abort a > trip. Every paddler in the group has the option to turn around and > walk > away. There were warning signs that Mark's TL - who may have been > competent > in many things - was not competent to lead this trip; and knew it. > > Credentials aren't everything. What really counts is competence. > Especially > when your life is on the line. > > > Craig Jungers > With practically no credentials at all in Moses Lake, WA An excellent post, Craig, and not just as applied to Mark's story. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Credentials aren't everything. What really counts is competence. > I absolutely agree! But I was trying not to go there as I suspected that would be an unpopular position on this list. I have always considered the ACA and the BCU to be avenues for paddlers to attempt to pay for experience. The credentials just tell me that the person has the time and money. But then I might be postulating sour grapes as I don't posses any stars either. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Regarding the *stars* thing, this is just my take. While I was splitting my time between spending my vacation on trainings and going on trips with my kayak, my attitude was about wanting to benefit from the experiences of others (star and coach cert holders) and those experiences of my own I learned on my trips. Having others view my performance in a training or assessment is not the same as my own opinion, so I considered it a worthy benchmark. Most of the best paddlers I paddle with have not a star to rub between them. I know a considerable number of paddlers who have no stars and paddle like they have no stars. Some are single venue paddlers. They only paddle whitewater or sea or what have you. Lots of people who don't expose themselves to the clinics or central ideas of curriculums do just fine. Some can develop some definately odd ideas in look and practice, but as long as they don't hurt themselves or others, who cares? What can irritate me are those that do hold lots of stars or certs and try to insinuate some sort of automatic leadership position. I see lots of clique-like behavior that often centers around such authorities and though they are usually quite fine when taken on their own, I still prefer to head the other way in such settings. It's not why I paddle. I wasn't there on Mark's paddle, but it sounded like a preschool fire drill, so will not venture any other opinions. I will say that I have been in and out of the gate on big ebbs and that lots of these symposiums are put on the calendar on such dates for good reason. Namely, that big ebbs and floods put the fire into the tidal races that would draw my interest or that of others. If I want to take a tidal rapids clinic, I don't want to do it on a mild tidal cycle. I can get that 45 minutes from the house in a grade 2 river. Features like Yellow Bluffs, the rapids off Alcatraz and Belvedere point are classics on big ebbs. With that in mind, most BCU advanced venues, particularly assessments, are geared toward replicating British conditions. As it is an international award, that last bit is important. If you can't produce big standing waves in current, wind and swell it's a no go as an assessment, it reverts to a training. SF Bay can produce conditions worthy of a 5* assessment, but there still is a risk that even a big ebb can meet no wind or swell and be just a jet. Chances are that big ebbs in marginal seasons will be a go, so the venues are planned around them. Mishaps can occur, feelings get ruffled and the judgement of others called into question. Sounds like a fun time! Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Scott Hilliard <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net> > Credentials aren't everything. What really counts is competence. > B I absolutely agree! But I was trying not to go there as I suspected that would be an unpopular position on this list. I have always considered the ACA and the BCU to be avenues for paddlers to attempt to pay for experience. The credentials just tell me that the person has the time and money. But then I might be postulating sour grapes as I don't posses any stars either.B B ScottB So.Cal.B *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Credentials aren't everything. What really counts is competence. Especially when your life is on the line." Craig Jungers With practically no credentials at all in Moses Lake, WA ------------------ Wise words. In Europe some of the sportsorganisations at present try to enforce what is called EPP, Euro Paddle Pass. At least in some of the countries including Denmark. This has created quite some discussion since a major part of the "ordinary" seakayakers find that the implementation as well as the definitions in the "standard" has more to do with monopolizing and making a profit than promoting safe seakayaking. I'm close to retirement but over the years I have got a lot of credentials for specialized skills (e.g. CNE, CNI, MCP, MSCE, MCT) and right now I am preparing my retirement via a certification as "Certified Playground Security Inspector". It has all been necessary for my professional activities as a skilled engineer but I recall many examples where the inflation in this area of business has separated competence from credentials. Until very recently I had no stars but then I succumbed to the demand for certification because of the implication that I didn't try to certify because I couldn't meet the demands. Well, I passed the tests without preparation or prior knowledge about the test criteria and qualified myself as a peer in some respects. I still don't really know what kind of a star I have become. I'm not a brilliant kayaker. My techniques are flawed and my back gives me some physical limitations. But I can roll myself up in hard weather and I have assisted with some real life rescues under hard conditions too. Now the EPP - as implemented in Denmark - focus not just on technical skill but also on technical perfection of these skills. "Group management" as e.g. defined in Oregon is not on the agenda. Tour Leaders are also undefined. Well not quite. The definition says that an approved tourleader is capable of bringing a group of kayakers along at all times of the year in all kinds of water and in all kinds of weather. I'll never become one of those. But within my known limitations I feel competent to bring kayakers of my choosing along in waters I have made myself familiar with. With a past as a company commander I'm quite aware of my obligations and I constantly seek knowledge and inspiration and one very valuable venue for this is actually paddlewise. I hope we shall be able to avoid the worst cases of certification and be able to concentrate on competence but it seems like a trip against the tide. Jens Viggo Moesmand Denmark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, My goodness, I've never read so much talk about not much. First, in regards to the Golden Gate Sea Kayak Symposium (www.ggsks.com), it was a world-class training event. I felt humbled being around so many highly skilled, fascinating and fun paddlers, both students and coaches alike. I can't wait to go again next year. Second, in regards to the trip leader, Jim Kennedy, a Level 5 BCU coach from Ireland, he made his decision to turn around based on the best information that he had and with everyone's safety in mind. There were a lot of grumpy faces on the paddle back in, but that's just the burden a leader has to carry. I suspect Mark Sanders was also angry at me when I canceled a crossing trip last year due to concerns about a weather forecast that didn't pan out. Third, paddling back in against nearly max ebb tide under the Golden Gate was great experience. Nobody was in danger either. There was the on-call safety skiff, which ended up being used because it was convenient. There was also a nice sandy beach with picnic tables not far down current, where it would've been comfortable to wait for the current to slow. From that beach there was also a trail leading to a road. At it turned out, a couple of other BCU coaches also had their group come back in the Golden Gate during max ebb tide a couple days later and also used the skiff. Don't forget that the symposium is all about learning. Fourth, in regards to immersion gear, the "important information" page on the event website states, "...wetsuits & drysuits are recommended. A good paddling top is a must have..." Anyway, there's no such thing as bad publicity, and my guess is that the symposium will quickly max out with attendance next year. You can see all the fun I had through my photos at: http://duane.smugmug.com/gallery/7083843_rxXaa#454037030_vtSxC Duane www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the link and images Duane. Sounds like a good weekend. lLoks a little nicer than the mid-west right now at minus 45 with wind-chill -- poor slobs. Still, I'd be wearing my stinky rubber outside of SF Bay, as per the photos in link below: http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.cgi?image=200809058&year=current&mode=sequential&flags=0 DL > Paddlewisers, > > My goodness, I've never read so much talk about not much. > > First, in regards to the Golden Gate Sea Kayak Symposium (www.ggsks.com), > it was a world-class training event. I felt humbled being around so many > highly skilled, fascinating and fun paddlers, both students and coaches > alike. I can't wait to go again next year. > > Second, in regards to the trip leader, Jim Kennedy, a Level 5 BCU coach > from Ireland, he made his decision to turn around based on the best > information that he had and with everyone's safety in mind. There were a > lot of grumpy faces on the paddle back in, but that's just the burden a > leader has to carry. I suspect Mark Sanders was also angry at me when I > canceled a crossing trip last year due to concerns about a weather > forecast that didn't pan out. > > Third, paddling back in against nearly max ebb tide under the Golden Gate > was great experience. Nobody was in danger either. There was the on-call > safety skiff, which ended up being used because it was convenient. There > was also a nice sandy beach with picnic tables not far down current, where > it would've been comfortable to wait for the current to slow. From that > beach there was also a trail leading to a road. At it turned out, a couple > of other BCU coaches also had their group come back in the Golden Gate > during max ebb tide a couple days later and also used the skiff. Don't > forget that the symposium is all about learning. > > Fourth, in regards to immersion gear, the "important information" page on > the event website states, "...wetsuits & drysuits are recommended. A good > paddling top is a must have..." > > Anyway, there's no such thing as bad publicity, and my guess is that the > symposium will quickly max out with attendance next year. > > You can see all the fun I had through my photos at: > > http://duane.smugmug.com/gallery/7083843_rxXaa#454037030_vtSxC > > Duane > www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey Doug, It's a nice day in Saint Paul: 3 above with 15 below forecast for tonight, but at least it's bright and sunny, and I had to unzip while shoveling the driveway this morning. Dressing in layers, not drysuits, is highly recommended here today. Chuck Holst -----Original Message----- <snip> lLoks a little nicer than the mid-west right now at minus 45 with wind-chill -- poor slobs. <snip> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3766 (20090114) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck said: > Hey Doug, > > It's a nice day in Saint Paul: 3 above with 15 below forecast for tonight, > but at least it's bright and sunny, and I had to unzip while shoveling the > driveway this morning. Dressing in layers, not drysuits, is highly > recommended here today. Hey guys, come on down to Southern California. Our winds have died down a bit and it is 79 deg F at my house and 62 on the water. The NOAA forecast for this afternoon is "W wind around 13 kt becoming WNW. Sunny. N swell 2 feet at 14 seconds. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft." Water temps are about 58 deg right now which is a bit warmer than usual. Steve Holtzman __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3766 (20090114) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Awesome photos Duane. Looks like you had a great time. Sure hope I can make the trip next year - I would have loved to have been there with you this time. Steve Holtzman __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3764 (20090114) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As if to underscore my essay on the proliferation of certifications I stumbled onto this link today: http://na.blackberry.com/eng/support/programs/certification.jsp?CPID=BAC-Q4-CERT-9&cp=BAC-Q4-CERT-9&dfa=yes It's a certification course for the Blackberry that includes a 1.5 hour exam and a US$150 fee. Don't know enough to pass the test? No problem, it turns out that there are several outfits that will happily train you up until you can pass... for an extra fee, of course. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The only Blackberry certification I want is how to bake them into a pie! -----Original Message----- As if to underscore my essay on the proliferation of certifications I stumbled onto this link today: http://na.blackberry.com/eng/support/programs/certification.jsp?CPID=BAC-Q4- CERT-9&cp=BAC-Q4-CERT-9&dfa=yes <http://na.blackberry.com/eng/support/programs/certification.jsp?CPID=BAC-Q4 -CERT-9&cp=BAC-Q4-CERT-9&dfa=yes> It's a certification course for the Blackberry that includes a 1.5 hour exam and a US$150 fee. Don't know enough to pass the test? No problem, it turns out that there are several outfits that will happily train you up until you can pass... for an extra fee, of course. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > As if to underscore my essay on the proliferation of certifications I > stumbled onto this link today: > http://na.blackberry.com/eng/support/programs/certification.jsp?CPID=BAC-Q4-CERT-9&cp=BAC-Q4-CERT-9&dfa=yes > > It's a certification course for the Blackberry that includes a 1.5 hour exam > and a US$150 fee. > > Don't know enough to pass the test? No problem, it turns out that there are > several outfits that will happily train you up until you can pass... for an > extra fee, of course. In about a month I'm going to be trading in (actually, will probably give it to my wife) my Blackberry for an iPhone. I think it's a bit unfair to compare that certification described above with BCU certification. A few years ago I assessed at and received a BCU 3 Star award. I realize that there are probably lots of paddler that are far more accomplished than I but I certainly wouldn't consider the 3 Star (or 4/5 star assessment or coach) certifications a gimme. After paddling for 5 years or so I tested for the 3 star and failed it. When I was assessed for it a year later, having worked on some of the skills identified during my first assessment as being insufficient, I tested again after spend a training day at the Sweetwater Symposium. I was among 15 other in the training session and 13 did the assessment the following day. I believe that everyone passed at the 2 star level but one two of use passed the 3 star assessment, plus one person that had a "provisional" completion (he had to demonstrate one/two skills before the end of the symposium that were deemed inefficient during the assessment). At least for the 3 star certification, not only is there a fairly long list of skills which much be demonstrated, but they have to be demonstrated with a pretty high level of proficiency. I have no idea what the failure rate (probably not terminology that the BCU wants to use) for the 4/5 star assessments and haven't specifically trained for other certifications other than the 3 Star and Canoe Safety Test but I suspect that the skill level required is quite high compared to other non-paddling related certifications. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John and All, At this symposium, there were four 5 Star Sea candidates (I was a part of the group they led), and none passed. Afterwards, Nigel Dennis was saying that the new 4 Star Sea, which now has a leadership component, is all that 99% of Americans need, because the only two places in the USA that have the type of tidal currents where the 5 Star assessment can even happen is San Francisco and Long Island. Duane --- On Thu, 1/15/09, John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: > I think it's a bit unfair to compare that certification > described above with BCU certification. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think I may concentrate on getting some stars this year. Not because I think it's the be all end all of kayak certification, but at least it provides some objective goals to make. Most of the kayak instruction I've gotten in the past was just too basic to have much impact, but that wasn't the case at GGSKS. Perhaps the thing to do is get a small group and get someone to take you out to learn in more challenging conditions. Besides, now that Jen has her 5 stars, I can go down there and learn from the best! Mark -----Original Message----- John and All, At this symposium, there were four 5 Star Sea candidates (I was a part of the group they led), and none passed. Afterwards, Nigel Dennis was saying that the new 4 Star Sea, which now has a leadership component, is all that 99% of Americans need, because the only two places in the USA that have the type of tidal currents where the 5 Star assessment can even happen is San Francisco and Long Island. Duane --- On Thu, 1/15/09, John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: > I think it's a bit unfair to compare that certification > described above with BCU certification. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I go to symposiums I like to watch the people in my classes train. To a degree poor physical conditioning, low confidence levels, fear of going over and inaccurate boat fit hobble some of these people. The instructors do address this but little seems to change from year to year. It is exciting to see people from previous years blossom and really progress. Others like me wax and wain. I have only paddled 5 star conditions once and did well but my strength and perhaps skills have decreased with age. We all slow as we age. I hope my judgement which has been earned through a pile of mistakes has gone up. I have certainly learned the art of patience. A hyper bouncy kid from Philadelphia doesn't learn patience easily. Its interesting to think of myself as a competent paddler in the Southeastern USA but I bet I would struggle a bit if plunked under the Golden Gate bridge. Very different places. Training never really ends. Good thing its fun and satisfying. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
the only two places in the USA that have the > type of tidal currents where the 5 Star assessment can even happen is San > Francisco and Long Island. I beg to differ Sergius Narrows north of Sitka Alaska up to14 knots on ebb! Mouth of Lituya Bay Alaska Bob, who ran Sergius safely on the flood and dreams of Lituya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Carter wrote: > the only two places in the USA that have the > >> type of tidal currents where the 5 Star assessment can even happen is >> San >> Francisco and Long Island. > > > > I beg to differ > Sergius Narrows north of Sitka Alaska up to14 knots on ebb! Mouth of > Lituya Bay Alaska > > Bob, who ran Sergius safely on the flood and dreams of Lituya Rev Bob, I think you should invite the 5 stars to a Sitka seminar. See how long they last in the deep freeze. :) Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] I too quite like a set of goals I can work towards, which is the real value of certification for me. Apologies for picking nits, but Jen has had 5 stars for quite a while. What she recently earned was Level 5. Stars are a paddling award (i.e. you have these paddling skills) and Level 5 is a coaching award (i.e. you have these coaching/teaching skills). ---Rick On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:58 AM, Mark Sanders wrote: > I think I may concentrate on getting some stars this year. Not > because I think it's the be all end all of kayak certification, but at least it > provides some objective goals to make. Most of the kayak instruction I've > gotten in the past was just too basic to have much impact, but that wasn't > the case at GGSKS. Perhaps the thing to do is get a small group and get > someone to take you out to learn in more challenging conditions. > Besides, now that Jen has her 5 stars, I can go down there and learn > from the best! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If you paddled on Lituya Bay, Alaska on July 9, 1958, then you would have earned way more than 5 stars, especially if you lived. http://www.google.com/search?q=lituya+bay&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a http://geology.com/records/biggest-tsunami.shtml BRC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Carter" <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net> To: "paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Certification--was Swimming > the only two places in the USA that have the >> type of tidal currents where the 5 Star assessment can even happen is San >> Francisco and Long Island. > > > I beg to differ > Sergius Narrows north of Sitka Alaska up to14 knots on ebb! Mouth of > Lituya Bay Alaska > > Bob, who ran Sergius safely on the flood and dreams of Lituya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Rev Bob, > > I think you should invite the 5 stars to a Sitka seminar. See how long > they last in the deep freeze. :) > > Jackie Jackie Right now it is 38 degrees here. Warmer than a lot of folks down south. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > Rev Bob, > > > > I think you should invite the 5 stars to a Sitka seminar. See how > long > > they last in the deep freeze. :) > > > > Jackie > > Jackie > Right now it is 38 degrees here. Warmer than a lot of folks down > south. > > Bob Windchill in Ottawa, Ontario was somewhere around -30 something Centigrade today. Going down to -31C tonight. Not kayaking weather, to be sure! Nice pics of the Golden Gate symposium though. Gives us in the frozen areas something to think about. (OK, fantasied about.) -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Our weathermen say that when it is super cold in Minnesota it is usually warmer in Alaska, and vice-versa. It all has to do with the jet stream. We're supposed to get our 38-degree temps next week. Tonight, though, it's 20 below for us. Chuck Holst -----Original Message----- Right now it is 38 degrees here. Warmer than a lot of folks down south. Bob __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3770 (20090116) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Carter wrote: > > Jackie > Right now it is 38 degrees here. Warmer than a lot of folks down south. > > Bob Yup, that's right. Forget Juneau, AK. How about Juneau, LA. Low there today was 20F according to wunderground. That sucks. Jackie (in a nice, sunny, 84F Orange County yesterday :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim, Not sure if I want to work toward a 5 Star certification when I could be paddling - I mean, just paddling. Although, the best spot for 5 Star training is in the Queen Charlotte Islands - Burnaby Narrows. I think the bottom of the narrows has five stars per square foot I heard. Now that's five star paddling. Doug Lloyd http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/90/273101016_f200a22142.jpg%3Fv%3D0&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/marksundstrom/273101016/in/set-72157594334214962/&usg=__viTseYd1WjymR5dvqF6Z3U5uu2o=&h=375&w=500&sz=209&hl=en&start=13&um=1&tbnid=lhEwSkzCMD3btM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dburnaby%2Bnarrows%2Bstar%2Bfish%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den or http://images.google.ca:80/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wildernessprints.com/images/bestrest10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wildernessprints.com/galleries/bestrest10.html&usg=__pOv-QhzfBN6K5oK1i4q1ZYYOPTM=&h=377&w=537&sz=229&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=kEEUAvB7hGbxXM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dburnaby%2Bnarrows%2Bstar%2Bfish%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den > When I go to symposiums I like to watch the people in my classes train. > To a degree poor physical conditioning, low confidence levels, fear of > going over and inaccurate boat fit hobble some of these people. The > instructors do address this but little seems to change from year to year. > It is exciting to see people from previous years blossom and really > progress. Others like me wax and wain. > > I have only paddled 5 star conditions once and did well but my strength > and perhaps skills have decreased with age. We all slow as we age. I hope > my judgement which has been earned through a pile of mistakes has gone > up. I have certainly learned the art of patience. A hyper bouncy kid from > Philadelphia doesn't learn patience easily. > > Its interesting to think of myself as a competent paddler in the > Southeastern USA but I bet I would struggle a bit if plunked under the > Golden Gate bridge. Very different places. Training never really ends. > Good thing its fun and satisfying. > > Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Our weathermen say that when it is super cold in Minnesota it is usually > warmer in Alaska, and vice-versa. It all has to do with the jet stream. Also for those of us living in Southeast Alaska our temperatures are moderated by the "Pineapple Current". Warm water flowing up from Hawaii. It also brings a lot of rain. Over 300 inches per year in some places! Only when high pressure systems generate wind out of the North do we get colder temperatures here. It was in the single digits for about two weeks here before it warmed up last Friday. Unfortunately we had a of rain on top of three feet of snow resulting in flooding and extremely slippery streets. Fun Fun. stay warm Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Yup, that's right. Forget Juneau, AK. How about Juneau, LA. Low there > today was 20F according to wunderground. Actually Juneau Alaska is in rough shape right now. An avalanche knocked out their power lines to their hydro electric facility so they are have to run diesel generators to power their town. This increases their electric bills 5 fold! enjoy the blessing you have Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would be curious to know where on Long Island the conditions are 5 star. I don't think the race at Plum Gut is even 5 star. Or maybe I just don't understand what 5 star means. Bill Leonhardt -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Duane Strosaker John and All, At this symposium, there were four 5 Star Sea candidates (I was a part of the group they led), and none passed. Afterwards, Nigel Dennis was saying that the new 4 Star Sea, which now has a leadership component, is all that 99% of Americans need, because the only two places in the USA that have the type of tidal currents where the 5 Star assessment can even happen is San Francisco and Long Island. Duane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Leonhardt, William J wrote: > I would be curious to know where on Long Island the conditions are 5 > star. I don't think the race at Plum Gut is even 5 star. Or maybe I > just don't understand what 5 star means. > From what understand it's more in Narangesett bay off the coast of Rhode Island. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:24 AM, John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: > Craig Jungers wrote: > >> As if to underscore my essay on the proliferation of certifications I >> stumbled onto this..... >> It's a certification course for the Blackberry that includes a 1.5 hour >> exam >> and a US$150 fee. >> > > I think it's a bit unfair to compare that certification described above > with BCU certification. > I didn't so much compare BCU with the Blackberry certifications as use the Blackberry certification as an example of certifications gone wild. I have no doubt that many could think up what they think are valid reasons to have ceritified Blackberry professionals. But I, personally, think it's a joke. If you look upon BCU certifications as a personal challenge then I think that's great and I don't want you to think that I disrespect you for that. What I worry about is the broad acceptance of certifications of any sort as the goal of the endeavor. What may be good for some may very well be anathema for others. I urge everyone to not take it so seriously that you think of it as an exclusive club open only to those who are deemed worthy. I strongly suspect that at some point in the future the BCU assessments and certification program - or any other that gains wide acceptance - will become more of a hindrance to the sport than an asset to the sport. At some point it will become the requirement to be a "professional" and will degenerate into a set of arbitrary hurdles set up mostly to control access to any form of the sport that includes being paid to do it. This is what happens to most certification programs that become successful and widely adopted. I see no reason to think that it won't happen to this one too. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, It's almost like multi-level marketing. Duane --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > I strongly suspect that at some point in the future the BCU > assessments and > certification program - or any other that gains wide > acceptance - will > become more of a hindrance to the sport than an asset to > the sport. At some > point it will become the requirement to be a > "professional" and will > degenerate into a set of arbitrary hurdles set up mostly to > control access > to any form of the sport that includes being paid to do it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Good words from Denmark. Nothing smelly. I always try to think of certification for paddling skills for paddlers as separate from certification for coaches coaching paddling skills. The former will necessarily have some conformity that is measurable while the later can benefit from a number of different approaches measured by the success of the enterprise, hopefully by someone free of political malice, monetary gain, psychological imbalance, overt dedication to one kayak style, and an individual accountable to their own qualified peers (often doubtful). Some paddlers just don't have what it takes for teaching - at least in a formal environment. The other certification group that emerges from a cursory glance are the guiding programs. I think the better guiding programs are where the paddle meets the water when it come to group dynamics and the ability to keep kayakers out of danger or resolve an issue with a potential bad outcome. I taught woodworking avocationally for 25 plus years, no training, no certification, not even shop in school (I took Latin). I did good. I taught core skills overly well and relegated those with little patience or an ability to incorporate layered advancement to the periphery of my attention (other than keeping them safe). I once had a certified shop teacher new to BC help for a few months between teaching gigs. What a pathetic experience that was for the shop, my stress level, and the students in general. However, when a student knowingly disobeyed my instructions one year and backed up the wood on a plunge dado cut on the table saw, he lost fingers. My employer's lawyer said there was no certificate so settlement was done out of court completely in favor of the miscreant student. I do know individuals who have undergone some rigorous certification for marine pilotage and Coastguard officer advancement. They darn well earned their "stars." Apparently, there were professional mariners on board the bridge of the BC Ferries, Queen of the North, a few years ago, that hadn't. However, working toward "stars" in any kayaking endeavour can't hurt, is usually beneficial, shouldn't always be regarded as innocent props for hesitant egos, and should be fun along the way. Personally, I just like doing my own thang on the ocean and I'm too set in my ways to go down a different road now. I could probably learn a few more rolls, some better strokes, and some GPS navigation education. I certainly don't want to pay a bunch of money and have someone watch me try and stand in my kayak. And if I were Mark on that course in SF Bay, I'd just of headed out after saying "BC'ing ya!" Oh, I would have left my waiver under the TL's deck line with N/A on the signature. See what I mean? Doug Lloyd PS I like paddling against the tide. Good resistance training. > Wise words. > > In Europe some of the sportsorganisations at present try to enforce what > is called EPP, Euro Paddle Pass. At least in some of the countries > including Denmark. > > This has created quite some discussion since a major part of the > "ordinary" seakayakers find that the implementation as well as the > definitions in the "standard" has more to do with monopolizing and > making a profit than promoting safe seakayaking. > > I'm close to retirement but over the years I have got a lot of > credentials for specialized skills (e.g. CNE, CNI, MCP, MSCE, MCT) and > right now I am preparing my retirement via a certification as "Certified > Playground Security Inspector". It has all been necessary for my > professional activities as a skilled engineer but I recall many examples > where the inflation in this area of business has separated competence > from credentials. > > Until very recently I had no stars but then I succumbed to the demand > for certification because of the implication that I didn't try to > certify because I couldn't meet the demands. > > Well, I passed the tests without preparation or prior knowledge about > the test criteria and qualified myself as a peer in some respects. I > still don't really know what kind of a star I have become. I'm not a > brilliant kayaker. My techniques are flawed and my back gives me some > physical limitations. But I can roll myself up in hard weather and I > have assisted with some real life rescues under hard conditions too. > > Now the EPP - as implemented in Denmark - focus not just on technical > skill but also on technical perfection of these skills. "Group > management" as e.g. defined in Oregon is not on the agenda. Tour Leaders > are also undefined. Well not quite. The definition says that an approved > tourleader is capable of bringing a group of kayakers along at all times > of the year in all kinds of water and in all kinds of weather. I'll > never become one of those. But within my known limitations I feel > competent to bring kayakers of my choosing along in waters I have made > myself familiar with. With a past as a company commander I'm quite aware > of my obligations and I constantly seek knowledge and inspiration and > one very valuable venue for this is actually paddlewise. > > I hope we shall be able to avoid the worst cases of certification and be > able to concentrate on competence but it seems like a trip against the > tide. > > Jens Viggo Moesmand > Denmark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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