G'day All, Australia is starting to see some quality boats being imported, I particularly like the ones I've seen from Valley but haven't given them a proper workout yet. My paddling buddy: average height, slightly built but strong, teaches paddling skills and leads flatwater trips but prefers to go to sea in rough water when she's not teaching or leading; is thinking of buying a boat. She's after a dayboat / playboat / weekender boat for practising and demonstrating skills but not worried about speed and is interested in the following: - Aquanaut - Nordkaap - Avocet and Anas Acuta; Could anyone give me any feedback on these as I offered to put the question to Paddlewise. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rebyl_kayak wrote: > Aquanaut - Nordkaap - Avocet and Anas Acuta; > > Could anyone give me any feedback on these as I offered to put the question to > Paddlewise. Peter, the folks on West Coast paddler really like your last choice. Here: http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=2903 -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Darryl V. (Paddlewiser a few years ago, eastcoast) loved his Anas. Slow surfer and slow on wind waves (at least, didn't meet expectations). Avocet awesome playboat - pearls a bit. Aquanaut is a fantastic all-around touring machine (by Brit standards). Nordkapp. Which one? Jubilee is dated but true blue fast touring machine nevertheless. Nordkapp LV is incredibly fast off the line but still a demanding kayak that requires the paddler to take care of themselves. Boat will not do it for you. All need a little skeg now and again. Classic Nordkapp - well, a classic, if quirky one still. Difficult to rationalize but tangible ability to weather rough seas for the devoted Classic paddler. Still no perfect kayak out there. Parts of a perfect one in every one above. Doug Lloyd > rebyl_kayak wrote: > >> Aquanaut - Nordkaap - Avocet and Anas Acuta; >> >> Could anyone give me any feedback on these as I offered to put the >> question to >> Paddlewise. > > Peter, the folks on West Coast paddler really like your last choice. > Here: http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=2903 > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry, that should be Vince D. Valley's actual boat construction and finish is excellent and typically consistent too. Lloyd D., er, D. Lloyd > I wrote: > Darryl V. (Paddlewiser a few years ago, eastcoast) loved his Anas. Slow > surfer and slow on wind waves (at least, didn't meet expectations). > > Avocet awesome playboat - pearls a bit. > > Aquanaut is a fantastic all-around touring machine (by Brit standards). > > Nordkapp. Which one? Jubilee is dated but true blue fast touring machine > nevertheless. Nordkapp LV is incredibly fast off the line but still a > demanding kayak that requires the paddler to take care of themselves. Boat > will not do it for you. All need a little skeg now and again. Classic > Nordkapp - well, a classic, if quirky one still. Difficult to rationalize > but tangible ability to weather rough seas for the devoted Classic > paddler. > > Still no perfect kayak out there. Parts of a perfect one in every one > above. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > Sorry, that should be Vince D. > > Valley's actual boat construction and finish is excellent and typically > consistent too. I'm pretty happy with mine. I've got a fiberglass Valley Skerray with an ocean cockpit that I bought used about 10 years ago. It was built in 1989 and still performs quite well. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G"Day Dave, Doug and Paddlewise, Thanks for the feedback on the Nordkaap, Avocet, Anas Acuta and Aquanaut and sorry the reply is a bit late. I was down with a seasonal flu, not the swine variety. We were also impressed with he build quality of the boats (haven't seen the Anas Acuta yet). Once I had sent Dave's link it looked as if the Anas Acuta was becoming a front runner but on hearing Doug's description of the Nordkaap and how it required the paddler to take care of themselves, Dee said "Thats exactly what I need". Of course there's nothing like actually trying a boat out in challenging conditions. But hearing the feedback was motivating and interesting. Might even consider getting one of them myself! But then I'd have to get rid of the Pittarak - sacrilege! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Re: [Paddlewise] Advice on boatsJim was tempting me with an as-new Classic Nordkapp HM in the Ultra-carbon lay-up he saw on auction back east, $1400.00 or so (new $4,000.00 in BC). I'm still sweating at night dreaming about it. Dang that Jim. Wife thinks I'm having an affair what with all my disturbed sleep and all. Guys -you know how it is - ya see something beautiful and curvy and you just can't get it out of your mind... Did finish my Euro-hybrid maple and purple heart workbench, after 5 years. Lee Valley moved into town last month and I finally picked up all the accessories. It's Baltic Birch cored, maple aproned and laminated edge-grain over ply top, so super stable. Need to come up with a good kayak design now, maybe another hand plane or two. And quite my extra job so I have some boat building time. In the meantime, my replacement Nordkapp to my older 100 pounder has ensured I don't take on super-risky paddle escapades (boat is too weak for that) allowing my family some breathing room not worrying about me so much. If I can get used to it, who knows, might even make a light-weight stripper - though I doubt it (light-weight, I mean). Lots of folks in Victoria are picking up new playboats now - Xcites, Anas's, Whiskey 16's, etc. I still want to be a one boat man. Yes honey, and a one woman man too. The sea is enough of a mistress. Doug Lloyd G"Day Dave, Doug and Paddlewise, Thanks for the feedback on the Nordkaap, Avocet, Anas Acuta and Aquanaut and sorry the reply is a bit late. I was down with a seasonal flu, not the swine variety. We were also impressed with he build quality of the boats (haven't seen the Anas Acuta yet). Once I had sent Dave's link it looked as if the Anas Acuta was becoming a front runner but on hearing Doug's description of the Nordkaap and how it required the paddler to take care of themselves, Dee said "Thats exactly what I need". Of course there's nothing like actually trying a boat out in challenging conditions. But hearing the feedback was motivating and interesting. Might even consider getting one of them myself! But then I'd have to get rid of the Pittarak - sacrilege! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I like hearing from an energetic Doug Lloyd. Sounds like things are going to happen. Which is the way it ought to be. Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> To: rebyl_kayak <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com>; Paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Thu, 7 May 2009 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Advice on boats Re: [Paddlewise] Advice on boatsJim was tempting me with an as-new Classic Nordkapp HM in the Ultra-carbon lay-up he saw on auction back east, $1400.00 or so (new $4,000.00 in BC). I'm still sweating at night dreaming about it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >Nordkapp LV is incredibly fast off the line but still a demanding kayak >that requires the paddler to take care of themselves. Boat will not do it >for you. All need a little skeg now and again. In general, Doug, what is gained from a kayak that is demanding vs a similar one that is not as demanding? It is not like the Tiderace or Romany are inferior to the NLV in conditions because they are less demanding. What is lost from a bit of stability provided by these similarly purposed boats, or gained from the twitchy quickness of the NLV? Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote: > Doug wrote: >>Nordkapp LV is incredibly fast off the line but still a demanding kayak >>that requires the paddler to take care of themselves. Boat will not do it >>for you. All need a little skeg now and again. > > In general, Doug, what is gained from a kayak that is demanding vs a > similar one that is not as demanding? It is not like the Tiderace or > Romany are inferior to the NLV in conditions because they are less > demanding. What is lost from a bit of stability provided by these > similarly purposed boats, or gained from the twitchy quickness of the NLV? > > Jerry Well Jerry and all, good evening. That's the question a lot of instructors ask too in terms of a boat for themselves, especially as a Romany used for instruction allows pedagogical concentration toward the student, allowing the instructor to not need to pay as much attention to balance, etc. Similarly, the Romany-like hulls undergoing initiated strokes are more responsive to the applied implementation allowing all parties a better visual reference. This obviously translates well not only for instruction but into a kayak that takes better care of you on an expedition or in textured water with faceted hydraulics from unexpected quarters. Good paddlers like Shauna of BBB switched out of Nordkapps and into NDK designs some time ago for precisely these reasons. Advanced paddlers and instructors like Mike at Ecomarine also made the same move - even more so as some of the NDK hulls do well even without a skeg, which is unlikely with the Valley designs. Duff applied this logic to his expeditioning paddling, gaining not only cargo capacity, but an "uncomplication" too. His hull responsiveness meant excellent maneuverability in heavy surf zones. So, why the heck a twitchy Nordkapp? Well the LV is a different kettle of fish, and a Nordkapp in name only to a degree. Test paddles have confirmed this for me. While the LV is fast off the line, the Classic and the Jubilee are still better long-range paddling machines, though the LV doesn't need the weight in it to enjoy day-tripping.And there is a difference between play boater requirements for rock gardens/surf/tideraces versus open ocean storm play. The later isn't a big draw. Look at the cross-comparison charts on the Point 65 web site. Play boats de-escalate performance in big open water conditions. As for your implied assertion, I'd agree that the more relaxing Tiderace or Romany is an equal performer for most tastes without the twitchy preponderance. However, one should also bear witness to maritime hydrodynamic tradition and realize that the Nordkapp hull even through the latest itineration shares a heritage with classic Viking hulls as well as took inception form Inuit proven form.Those who love their Nordys can't express exactly what draws them to pursue the learning curve associated with paddling these hulls in advanced conditions, or why they put up with the difficulty of even something as simple as getting a camera out of the day hatch. I can say that when I sit and paddle a Romany, the front bow gyrates with each paddle stroke. When I'm parallel in a beam sea with these other kayak designs alongside me, the Norkapp hull stays in a lateral groove you can't help but not ignore. When I'm sweep and I have to race forward 1000 yards to catch the leader or race off to herd in strays, the Nordy delivers. In an all-day slog in lumpy, short-period seas, the tight-ass Nordy delivers consistent sea-kindly rides - all be it with continued attention. When you spend hours clawing up over wave tops in a contrary head sea, it's magic (poor planning, poor luck, but hey, it happens). Valley makes lots of non-twitchy kayak designs good for comfort and gear capacity. Thousands of other paddlers make their own kayaks, many much more twitchy and lower volume - and love to paddle them. Bjorn over in Euroland can design-up a boat to fit your anthromorphic parameters and give you whatever range of design criteria you want from his current selection, but it'll never be a Nordkapp experience. So there, that's it. It's the Nordkapp experience. Maybe not the _in general_ answer you were looking for, but the twitchy-prone Nordkapps aren't a generalist kayak. And why it is when things get really bad out there, really bad, the Nordkapp owners aren't headed in yet? Hard to answer. Hard to fathom. Subjective righting-moment perceptions (as opposed to my subjective writing moments, or perhaps in conert with them, heh, heh)? And if I have to tow someone for 6 hours in a gale, I know what I want to be paddling. But heck Mr. Jerry, an Explorer will always get you home.Paddlers working to the advanced level, out on expeditions, benefit well. Talk to Gordin W. And SK Magazine readersagreed with you this year that these NDKs are "the" solution. Be cool Jerry. You've always had a problem with this stability thing, I think. That's okay. It's all good. Maybe it's just a different blood that flows in some kayakers' veins, to accept the "twitchy is more fun so more active so more stable so actually less tippy in a bad sea situation" notion. I can only really speak for myself: for me that blood is the same blood that babbles in the mountain brooks down through raging rivers and rages mightily in tempestuous seas. It is, you see, a certain essential wildness. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day Jerry, I know this is really Doug's forte and the question was addressed to him and his reply gives much food for thought. But a 'twitchy' boat is something I've had a lot of benefit from. The benefit? I can be a lazy so and so and a boat that's twitchy in the right kind of way forced me to improve my skill every time I went out, and I hardly noticed. Its sometimes tough to get home, but it keeps me fairly honest. All the best. PeterO ________________________________ From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net on behalf of Jerry F Sent: Fri 8/05/2009 12:38 PM To: Doug Lloyd; Dave Kruger; Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Advice on boats Doug wrote: >Nordkapp LV is incredibly fast off the line but still a demanding kayak >that requires the paddler to take care of themselves. Boat will not do it >for you. All need a little skeg now and again. In general, Doug, what is gained from a kayak that is demanding vs a similar one that is not as demanding? It is not like the Tiderace or Romany are inferior to the NLV in conditions because they are less demanding. What is lost from a bit of stability provided by these similarly purposed boats, or gained from the twitchy quickness of the NLV? Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter, I checked my notes after I signed off last night,. I did a direct comparison of the Nordkapp LV and the Xcite similar to the Romany with rock solid support on edge and flattish bottom for stability. The Nordkapps mostly suffer on edge when you tend to loose stability so using edging is more problematic in quartering, rough conditions without a skeg or rudder on the LV and Classic. But interestingly, the side to side sensation of going from a low brace left to a low brace right is slower and less responsive with the Excites and Romany's. There's where the twitchiness pays dividends in responsiveness. That is, to me, objective (but not necessarily one's cup of tea). Doug Lloyd > G'Day Jerry, > > I know this is really Doug's forte and the question was addressed to him > and > his reply gives much food for thought. But a 'twitchy' boat is something > I've > had a lot of benefit from. The benefit? > > I can be a lazy so and so and a boat that's twitchy in the right kind of > way > forced me to improve my skill every time I went out, and I hardly noticed. > Its > sometimes tough to get home, but it keeps me fairly honest. > > All the best. PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> To: "Jerry F" <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net>; "Dave Kruger" <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>; "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Advice on boats Doug, The most telling phrase in your superb exposition is the final 'certain essential wildness'. So the Nordkapp aficionados have a spiritual characteristic in their blood. I can perhaps 'grok' that. But from a practical point of view I don't see any advantage to twitchiness/low stability in a sea kayak. If one wants highest top speed, one must accept the the twitchiness of a 21 ft by 17 inch surf ski. But for sea kayak hours in unruly seas why not all the advantages one can get. You use a rudder, for example, and I heartily approve; it just makes things a bit easier, so why not. Likewise a bit of stability (not too much) will make things easier after long rough hours at sea. Or perhaps one is playing in wild tide races, and has the Olympic qualitiy reflexes and skills of, say, a Sean Morley. Then, perhaps, one is in another realm where ultimate side to side quickness is an advantage. Even here, however, a bit of chine and its associated carving/turning response can only be a positive. If, as you say, "in an all-day slog in lumpy, short-period seas, the tight-ass Nordy delivers consistent sea-kindly rides - all be it with continued attention." Then what practical advantage accrues from such required continued attention? That attention requires added effort, which can be draining over time. And as you note many good paddlers have switched out of Nordkapps. But I will be cool. I only rant because I wish that the pleasure and excitement of the Nordkapps were 'in my blood' as well. PeterO, I don't agree with getting a boat that is difficult to handle, just in order to learn it. For this reason I don't have a unicycle. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I might have this wrong, so I'm posting it mainly to see how many arrows it attracts. First, semantics may play a role here. "Stable" sounds like a good thing when you ask someone would you want your boat stable? But if you substitute "strong righting moment with respect to the water's surface" it might make one think a little before answering. If the water is horizontal, the "stableness" of the boat will also tend keep you horizontal. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, that stableness would tend to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. How strong this tendendcy is depends on how "stable" the boat is. Now taking the opposite extreme, if your boat had zero "stability", on flat water it would have zero tendency to keep you horizontal. Your attitude is all dynamic and up to you. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, it would have zero tendency to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. Your attitude is all dynamic and up to you. So, I'm thinking it's pick your poison. If you are all of the time in flat water "stable" is good. If you are really worried about water with texture, even if it's that one crossing back from the island when the sea gets up, maybe not so much. As long as you have a paddle in the water and are applying force, it's pretty easy to control your attitude. It's only sitting with your paddle in your lap that the boat needs to take over the job of staying upright. I doubt Doug spends much time fishing or taking photograps when he paddles in a gale at night. -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Jerry F Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:23 PM To: Doug Lloyd; Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Advice on boats ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> To: "Jerry F" <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net>; "Dave Kruger" <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>; "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Advice on boats Doug, The most telling phrase in your superb exposition is the final 'certain essential wildness'. So the Nordkapp aficionados have a spiritual characteristic in their blood. I can perhaps 'grok' that. But from a practical point of view I don't see any advantage to twitchiness/low stability in a sea kayak. If one wants highest top speed, one must accept the the twitchiness of a 21 ft by 17 inch surf ski. But for sea kayak hours in unruly seas why not all the advantages one can get. You use a rudder, for example, and I heartily approve; it just makes things a bit easier, so why not. Likewise a bit of stability (not too much) will make things easier after long rough hours at sea. Or perhaps one is playing in wild tide races, and has the Olympic qualitiy reflexes and skills of, say, a Sean Morley. Then, perhaps, one is in another realm where ultimate side to side quickness is an advantage. Even here, however, a bit of chine and its associated carving/turning response can only be a positive. If, as you say, "in an all-day slog in lumpy, short-period seas, the tight-ass Nordy delivers consistent sea-kindly rides - all be it with continued attention." Then what practical advantage accrues from such required continued attention? That attention requires added effort, which can be draining over time. And as you note many good paddlers have switched out of Nordkapps. But I will be cool. I only rant because I wish that the pleasure and excitement of the Nordkapps were 'in my blood' as well. PeterO, I don't agree with getting a boat that is difficult to handle, just in order to learn it. For this reason I don't have a unicycle. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Good explanation Carey. The "Zen" experience of a twitchy Nordy in a moonless gale at night along rebounding cliffs is an active, engaging experience where the vigilance of instant hip-control correction _is_ the experience an assumes a stability paddler-provided that is difficult to illuminate to others. Just don't ask me to take any pictures though. :-) Hey, you Paddlewisers are a great bunch of guys and gals letting me take up your bandwidth reading time (heh, heh - assuming some of you do). Have a great paddling season everyone. Be safe. Be real. Just do it with some gusto once and awhile. Doug Lloyd >I might have this wrong, so I'm posting it mainly to see how many arrows it > attracts. > > First, semantics may play a role here. "Stable" sounds like a good thing > when you ask someone would you want your boat stable? But if you > substitute > "strong righting moment with respect to the water's surface" it might make > one think a little before answering. > > If the water is horizontal, the "stableness" of the boat will also tend > keep > you horizontal. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, that > stableness > would tend to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. How strong this > tendendcy > is depends on how "stable" the boat is. > > Now taking the opposite extreme, if your boat had zero "stability", on > flat > water it would have zero tendency to keep you horizontal. Your attitude is > all dynamic and up to you. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, it > would have zero tendency to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. Your > attitude is all dynamic and up to you. > > So, I'm thinking it's pick your poison. If you are all of the time in flat > water "stable" is good. If you are really worried about water with > texture, > even if it's that one crossing back from the island when the sea gets up, > maybe not so much. > > As long as you have a paddle in the water and are applying force, it's > pretty easy to control your attitude. It's only sitting with your paddle > in > your lap that the boat needs to take over the job of staying upright. I > doubt Doug spends much time fishing or taking photograps when he paddles > in > a gale at night. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That's a handy term Doug "paddler-provided" as compared to "boat provided" stability. The boat's characteristics with respect to "stability" are designed in (for the most part. I think I saw one skin-on-frame with a lever for warping the boat from the cockpit a little) and it is what it is. The "paddler provided" behaviour is whatever you want (need?) it to be. Up to the limits of your person of course. -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd [mailto:douglloyd_at_shaw.ca] Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 2:37 PM To: Carey Parks; Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Advice on boats Good explanation Carey. The "Zen" experience of a twitchy Nordy in a moonless gale at night along rebounding cliffs is an active, engaging experience where the vigilance of instant hip-control correction _is_ the experience an assumes a stability paddler-provided that is difficult to illuminate to others. Just don't ask me to take any pictures though. :-) Hey, you Paddlewisers are a great bunch of guys and gals letting me take up your bandwidth reading time (heh, heh - assuming some of you do). Have a great paddling season everyone. Be safe. Be real. Just do it with some gusto once and awhile. Doug Lloyd >I might have this wrong, so I'm posting it mainly to see how many arrows it > attracts. > > First, semantics may play a role here. "Stable" sounds like a good thing > when you ask someone would you want your boat stable? But if you > substitute > "strong righting moment with respect to the water's surface" it might make > one think a little before answering. > > If the water is horizontal, the "stableness" of the boat will also tend > keep > you horizontal. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, that > stableness > would tend to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. How strong this > tendendcy > is depends on how "stable" the boat is. > > Now taking the opposite extreme, if your boat had zero "stability", on > flat > water it would have zero tendency to keep you horizontal. Your attitude is > all dynamic and up to you. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, it > would have zero tendency to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. Your > attitude is all dynamic and up to you. > > So, I'm thinking it's pick your poison. If you are all of the time in flat > water "stable" is good. If you are really worried about water with > texture, > even if it's that one crossing back from the island when the sea gets up, > maybe not so much. > > As long as you have a paddle in the water and are applying force, it's > pretty easy to control your attitude. It's only sitting with your paddle > in > your lap that the boat needs to take over the job of staying upright. I > doubt Doug spends much time fishing or taking photograps when he paddles > in > a gale at night. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Carey, I think your post misses the point. We are not discussing a big wide stable boat in rough conditions. The question is whether a small bit of reserve buoyancy (as suggested at the Tiderace site) and add to handling ease in these conditions. Compare the Tiderace Excite to the Nordkapp LV, both 21 inches in beam and similar lengths and similar design intent. The Tiderace will have a bit more stability than the NLV, and perhaps give better feedback in unruly water. The Tiderace is not going to incline to 45 deg on such a wave any more than the NLV. One will just be more comfortable and have to pay less attention to staying upright. I see only advantages to this small increment in stability. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carey Parks" <carey_at_jimparksfamily.com> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 10:09 AM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Advice on boats >I might have this wrong, so I'm posting it mainly to see how many arrows it > attracts. > > First, semantics may play a role here. "Stable" sounds like a good thing > when you ask someone would you want your boat stable? But if you > substitute > "strong righting moment with respect to the water's surface" it might make > one think a little before answering. > > If the water is horizontal, the "stableness" of the boat will also tend > keep > you horizontal. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, that > stableness > would tend to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. How strong this > tendendcy > is depends on how "stable" the boat is. > > Now taking the opposite extreme, if your boat had zero "stability", on > flat > water it would have zero tendency to keep you horizontal. Your attitude is > all dynamic and up to you. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, it > would have zero tendency to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. Your > attitude is all dynamic and up to you. > > So, I'm thinking it's pick your poison. If you are all of the time in flat > water "stable" is good. If you are really worried about water with > texture, > even if it's that one crossing back from the island when the sea gets up, > maybe not so much. > > As long as you have a paddle in the water and are applying force, it's > pretty easy to control your attitude. It's only sitting with your paddle > in > your lap that the boat needs to take over the job of staying upright. I > doubt Doug spends much time fishing or taking photograps when he paddles > in > a gale at night. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Carey Parks wrote a well-done synopsis (below my sig) of the trammels and travails of "primary stability" as we typically use the term. I have only a couple small bones to pick. First: a modicum of primary stability should work for most any boat in rough water; it is _secondary_ stability which determines basic seaworthiness under difficult sea conditions. Or, in Carey-speak: "strong righting moment with respect to the water's surface [when the boat is on edge]". I am pretty sure Carey understands that; I bring it forward for the second issue. Second: there should be two regimes where "stability" matters. The first, as above, when the paddler is actively manipulating the righting moment by using his/her paddle and body. The second, when he/she is fishing around inside the sprayskirt for goodies to eat, the camera, some warmth for the head, etc. A decent boat should not be so extraordinarily busy in conditions where secondary stability is not in the game that a capsize is likely without active paddle control. The rub is in melding these two. Smarter, more knowledgeable hull-nuts than I am sort this out pretty well, for we average Joes and Janes. I like my high-primary-stability cargo barge, and have the meat in my butt and arms and thighs to put it over on edge when needed on moderately rough seas. It surfs like the tank it is -- so I do not expect to surf it unless pressed, and invariably side surf my butt to shore, thrashing and gesticulating physically and mentally. Someone weaker and/or less massive would be unable to paddle this boat with enjoyment or a reasonable degree of control in rough conditions. In short, we should be able to have most our cake and eat it too, if we pick the right boat for our body type and strength. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -- Carey Said: > First, semantics may play a role here. "Stable" sounds like a good thing > when you ask someone would you want your boat stable? But if you > substitute "strong righting moment with respect to the water's surface" > it might make one think a little before answering. > > If the water is horizontal, the "stableness" of the boat will also tend > keep you horizontal. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, that > stableness would tend to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. How strong > this tendency is depends on how "stable" the boat is. > > Now taking the opposite extreme, if your boat had zero "stability", on > flat water it would have zero tendency to keep you horizontal. Your > attitude is all dynamic and up to you. If the water were to incline to > 45 degrees, it would have zero tendency to incline you to 45 degrees. > Ditto 90. Your attitude is all dynamic and up to you. > > So, I'm thinking it's pick your poison. If you are all of the time in > flat water "stable" is good. If you are really worried about water with > texture, even if it's that one crossing back from the island when the > sea gets up, maybe not so much. > > As long as you have a paddle in the water and are applying force, it's > pretty easy to control your attitude. It's only sitting with your paddle > in your lap that the boat needs to take over the job of staying upright. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I will throw an arrow because I think that you are wrong. I think that this argument that "stable" boats find themselves at 45 degrees on 45 degree wave faces to be wrong in the family of kayaks 24" or less. First of all, I have paddled lots of kayaks including "stable" ones and I do not detect the problem. This is a perceptual issue and other may disagree. The second point has to do with stability curves. Many have seen stability curves of kayaks in Sea Kayaker or elsewhere. These curves are interesting and valuable but subject to confusion. First of all, most kayaks 24" or less are actually unstable. The curves do not reflect this because they do not reflect the actual height of the center of gravity of a typical kayak (which for this conversation is a craft 20 - 23" wide) with an adult in it. But these curves (which really are created for real ships that have immovable centers of gravity) do not reflect reality for kayakers. Unlike ships, kayaks have moveable centers of gravity. Stability curves as classically calculated are EXTREMELY sensitive to where you assume the center of gravity to be. Raise that center of gravity up a bit an that "stable" looking curve goes away. Those curves are based on an unrealistically low estimation of the center of gravity. The curves imply that you can lean such a boat out say 45 degrees and you will bob back to the midline. You won't. At least a dummy rigid paddler with the weight distribution of a human will not. That kayak is going over. In fact, that kayak is going over if it is leaned out 20 degrees etc. As an experiment, try it in a warm pool. Sit rigidly in your kayak and have a friend lean you out 15 degrees and then let go and see what happens if you do not move a muscle but simply sit rigidly in your kayak. You are over. The fact of the matter is that we bipeds are stability machines. Imagine the stability curve of a human standing on one foot. Most of us can do this. But this is HIGHLY unstable. People can stand "rigidly" but they are not completely rigid. They make subtle adjustments very early so as to stay upright. We are VERY sensitive to starting to tilt and correct immediately. We instinctively, and very successfully, keep are selves upright whether while standing on land or sitting in a kayak. This is before you have learned to use your paddle to brace. When the kayak starts to tip you immediately shift your center of gravity to counteract this. Sometimes you will see beginners shimmering in their kayak as they compulsively remain completely vertical. This behavior is so ingrained in us as bipeds that we do not give it any conscious thought unless the kayak gets very unstable. An experienced kayaker knows that he can lean out at 45 degrees without difficulty and become upright again using his paddle. But if you have no paddle, when you lean your boat, you will lean your body the other way to compensate. You can only lean your body laterally at the waist so far. If you go beyond this limit, you are over. My contentions are that kayaks as most of us know them on this list, are "unstable". We will exclude the rubber ducky 30" wide kayak category. We will exclude 34 inch canoes. So we are talking about sea kayaks which as we commonly use the word are "18 - 24" wide. These are all unstable. You might think of a 24" kayak as a fat stable dog boat but it is really not all that stable. It is stable for a human because of our skills, honed by evolution, at keeping ourselves upright. We can sit in those boats and take photo etc without difficulty. But remember we can do that standing up also. Stick a frozen sitting corpse in that boat and it is not going to take much of a wave or a tilt to get it to flip over. And I would argue that it is not hard in that 24" boat to get it to tilt 45 degrees if the water surface becomes tilted 45 degrees. It is easy. You lean a bit (which is instinctive) and the boat will tilt. I do think that there are "shapes" of kayak cross-sections that can be desirable or undesirable in terms of feelings of "comfort" when it comes to being sideways in heavy seas. But I think that the explanation that we frequently see in publications with the kayak so "stable" that it cannot be leaned into a wave so as to remain in the "upright" position is fiction. On May 9, 2009, at 10:09 AM, Carey Parks wrote: > If the water is horizontal, the "stableness" of the boat will also > tend keep > you horizontal. If the water were to incline to 45 degrees, that > stableness > would tend to incline you to 45 degrees. Ditto 90. How strong this > tendendcy > is depends on how "stable" the boat is. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Hi This is probably one of the smartest mails I have read. Robert Livingston is still on the top in kayak design and understanding. Very clear and right on the spot. Best Regards, Rafael Mier Mexico www.mayanseas.com -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] En nombre de Robert Livingston Enviado el: lunes, 11 de mayo de 2009 0:59 Para: Paddlewise Paddlewise Asunto: Re: [Paddlewise] Advice on boats I will throw an arrow because I think that you are wrong. I think that this argument that "stable" boats find themselves at 45 degrees on 45 degree wave faces to be wrong in the family of kayaks 24" or less. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 6:54 AM, Rafael en prodigy <silidriel_at_prodigy.net.mx > wrote: > > This is probably one of the smartest mails I have read. > Robert Livingston is still on the top in kayak design and understanding. > > Very clear and right on the spot. > > You've got that right, Rafael. Well written and to the point. Except that Robert missed one important detail: kayaks (with an occupant) are remarkably stable.... inverted. :P Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 6:54 AM, Rafael en prodigy <silidriel_at_prodigy.net.mx >> wrote: > >> This is probably one of the smartest mails I have read. >> Robert Livingston is still on the top in kayak design and understanding. >> >> Very clear and right on the spot. >> >> You've got that right, Rafael. Well written and to the point. Except that > Robert missed one important detail: kayaks (with an occupant) are remarkably > stable.... inverted. :P > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net But slow. Very slow. <grin> I think it's the added resistance factor of the hatch covers, and I will soon publish a study comparing the fluid dynamics of various types of hatch covers. (As a bonus, this should have the added benefit of letting you improve gas mileage while the boats are on your vehicle.) -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On May 11, 2009, at 10:59 AM, Darryl Johnson wrote: > > I think it's the added resistance factor of the hatch covers, and I > will soon publish a study comparing the fluid dynamics of various > types of hatch covers. (As a bonus, this should have the added > benefit of letting you improve gas mileage while the boats are on > your vehicle.) > > -- > Darryl Send me an address and I will Paypal you some funding. It all sounds so green. But I do expect a hatch cover to be named after me. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 10 May 2009 22:59:02 -0700 Robert Livingston <bearboat2_at_comcast.net> wrote: > ... > Stability curves as classically calculated are EXTREMELY sensitive to > where you assume the center of gravity to be. Raise that center of > gravity up a bit an that "stable" looking curve goes away. ... > ... > You might think of a 24" kayak as a fat stable dog boat > but it is really not all that stable.... >... I agree completely. A corollary is that if you raise the seat slightly you can make any sea kayak extremely easy to tilt. My solo whitewater canoe with 31" beam is easier to tilt on edge than my sea kayak with 21" beam, because the seat (pedestal) is so much higher. If you find it difficult to tilt a 24" sea kayak (which I very much doubt), raise the seat a half an inch. That should do the trick. :-) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, Thank you for taking the time to respond - and in a respectful, gentlemanly way. Some of my post was purposefully subjective. As you have correctly implied, defending the "twitchiness" of the Nordkapp often comes down to a certain subjectivity. In case you have not read the Doug Wilcox review from his blog: http://seakayakphoto.blogspot.com/2007/01/valley-nordkapp-lv-test.html The pertinent section reads: "This boat feels so, so alive and responsive! It lacks the initial tippiness of an unladen Nordkapp Jubilee but it is so responsive to the slightest lift of a knee and this (together with the boat's response to the bow rudder stroke) made maneuvering round the labyrinth of tight rocky channels of St Abbs an absolute joy. A much more experienced paddler, following in the Aquanaut, could not match the tight lines this boat took. The Rockpool Alaws are designed for manoeuvrability but the Nordkapp LV could match every turn. However, as you edge an Alaw the boat becomes progressively stiffer and more secure feeling, as you edge the Nordkapp LV it just keeps going over smoothly until sploosh. There is no warning when you are just about at the limit of secondary stability. Intermediates learning edging and bow rudder strokes found the Alaws to be much easier." So sploosh it is. Further: "was expecting it to be manoeuvrable, given all that keel rocker, but I was not expecting it to be fast. However, it accelerates to top speed with fewer strokes than any other boat I have paddled. And what a burst speed it has! The Nordkapp LV managed 11.6km/hr." So fast - but who can sustain that (?). And further: "This boat handles rough water. It thrives in wind against tide or a combination of overfalls and clapotis under a headland. Like many Valley designs it tends to throw its bow high over approaching steep waves. In strong winds in an unladen Jubilee or Aquanaut this can result in the bow getting blown downwind. In the Nordkapp LV this does not happen. However, it is quite a wet boat and you will need to have a well fitting spray deck. Above force 4 it starts to weathercock and although you can control this with edging, the skeg makes for a much more relaxed paddle on an exposed crossing. The Alaw Bach has no skeg but is a very well balanced boat even in strong winds. However, paddling it side by side with the LV in force 5 to 6 winds demonstrated the extra versatility given by the Nordkapp LVs skeg. You might not need it very often but when you do, it does make life much easier." Well duh on the skeg. Wet? Yeah. There's that "wildness". And lastly: "With such a narrow stern, I was not expecting the Nordkapp LV to be able to pick up following seas as easily as a boat like the Alaw. I was wrong, the Nordkapp LV's acceleration means you can pick up swells actively rather than relying on the hull shape of the stern to give you that final boost to catch a wave. I managed a burst speed 18.6km/hr on a nice piece of Solway surf! This brings me to rolling. The LV rolls very easily." The "tight-ass" stern on all the Nordkapp models is a very fine exit line that allows for less bucking in a following sea. Certainly the LV broaches less and surfs better than all the previous Nordkapp hulls. But a quartering push can leave you in a "sploosh" situation. The Alaw's, Xcites and Romanys/Explorers are so incredible rock solid on edge or when forced over in following seas unexpectedly there's just much less chance for "sploosh" and more indication that you can keep an edge for device-less directional control. So yes, why paddle a Nordkapp. Well, for the Nordkapp aficionado, the LV rectifies a lot of the previous problems with the Classic, the H2O, and Jubilee models. However, not as great a gear carrier for long range. And while more room for the feet and less cramping potential, the LV has more windage. The speed issue is one important to me. Getting back in fast or clearing a headland quickly are all important attributes for me. I tried a Seda Glider out once. Fast. Awesome. But, in a lumpy sea and wind, forget it! Doug Wilcox concludes: "The Valley Nordkapp LV is a superbly made expedition boat for smaller paddlers. It is as manoeuvrable as a day boat (albeit at the cost of some secondary stability) and it is also fast. Valley seem to have achieved the Holy Grail of sea kayak design: the LV has speed, manoeuvrability and sufficient volume! It is a boat that the progressing paddler will delight in for its excitement and responsiveness. It is also a superb day boat for heavier paddlers while still having enough expedition carrying capacity for all but the heaviest of packers. What else should you consider? Early intermediates looking for a day boat should also try the superb Rockpool Alaw Bach which is just as manoeuvrable but is a more predictable learning platform that will flatter ability and speed skill development. Hardcore rockhoppers should also consider the Rockpool for its heavier and stronger construction and in extreme conditions even experts appreciate secondary stability." He seems to agree with you Jerry in his last sentence above. And more telling: "What is the overall verdict of the Valley Nordkapp LV? Well apart from carrying capacity, we could not find a single criterion in which the Nordkapp Jubilee retained superiority. The Nordkapp is dead. Long live the Nordkapp LV! It is outstanding, beauty really isn't skin deep! As a result of this test, three Nordkapp LV's have already been ordered and more are being saved for! I feel I must award this boat 12/10!" For me, the Classic Nordkapp isn't dead yet - but really, its design is on life support and all attempts to revive it flat-line and have shown the LV to be better. The LV is still on my short list. I'd heavily modify one for my own use and criteria. When I sit in an NDK or Tiderace, I'm immediately aware of certain advantages. As seas get rougher - all the more. Do I enjoy the experience. No. Not the same. A kayak is more than the sum of its parts. Kayak and kayaker are one. When a kayaker is in a sea kayak they really enjoy, the experience truly is greater than the sum of the parts. I have not found that perfect experience yet. Everyone wants an exciting, sexy, wild, good looking souse. Rarely is a frumpy, reliable, faithful and true spouse not the best option in the long term. I'm looking for both (in a kayak, that is). I'll let you know when I find it. :-) Doug Lloyd ("sploosh" - sounds like what's in the jar preserves in the pantry - the ones my faithful spouse keeps on shelves forever, for a rainy day) > Doug, > The most telling phrase in your superb exposition is the final 'certain > essential wildness'. So the Nordkapp aficionados have a spiritual > characteristic in their blood. I can perhaps 'grok' that. But from a > practical point of view I don't see any advantage to twitchiness/low > stability in a sea kayak. If one wants highest top speed, one must accept > the the twitchiness of a 21 ft by 17 inch surf ski. But for sea kayak > hours in unruly seas why not all the advantages one can get. You use a > rudder, for example, and I heartily approve; it just makes things a bit > easier, so why not. Likewise a bit of stability (not too much) will make > things easier after long rough hours at sea. > > Or perhaps one is playing in wild tide races, and has the Olympic qualitiy > reflexes and skills of, say, a Sean Morley. Then, perhaps, one is in > another realm where ultimate side to side quickness is an advantage. Even > here, however, a bit of chine and its associated carving/turning response > can only be a positive. > > If, as you say, "in an all-day slog in lumpy, short-period seas, the > tight-ass Nordy delivers consistent sea-kindly rides - all be it with > continued attention." Then what practical advantage accrues from such > required continued attention? That attention requires added effort, which > can be draining over time. And as you note many good paddlers have > switched out of Nordkapps. > > But I will be cool. I only rant because I wish that the pleasure and > excitement of the Nordkapps were 'in my blood' as well. > > PeterO, > I don't agree with getting a boat that is difficult to handle, just in > order to learn it. For this reason I don't have a unicycle. > > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Jerry wrote >I don't agree with getting a boat that is difficult to handle, just in order >to learn it. For this reason I don't have a unicycle. G'day Jerry, Let me give an example as I have a Pittarak and a Mirage. The Pittarak is a rudderless expedition boat that doesn't have well defined secondary stability, needs really good edging skills to handle well in a following sea, or to turn on the spot. It is also sturdy, excellent into a headwind and in short, large, choppy sea or clapotis. Its the easiest boat to get off a surf beach that I know of because of its rocker, sharp bow and strength and the most comfortable I've ever paddled. This is the boat that ensured without any great conscious effort that I gained a useful set of skills in manoevering a kayak in choppy following seas. The Mirage 580 on the other hand is a ruddered boat and a perfect example of a fine kayak that is fast, and straightforward for most kayakers to handle in a wide variety of conditions and perfect for tough expeditions. However, it has a fixed rudder which makes getting it off a surf beach possible but awkward if the rudder digs into the sand. It has a reputation for being a a bit difficult to turn on a dime and I know noone who uses it without the rudder. When I first tried the Mirage (with the rudder removed) I was suprised to find that it turned easily, because I was prepared to edge it properly. So the possibilities for this boat are greatly expanded, for example it can be manoevered easily from standstill in rough water for a rescue. If I had paddled nothing but this boat I would probably have thought it hard to turn quickly, or to use without the rudder. So the skills unconsciously learn't and the strength developed while kayaking in a boat that forced me to use my whole body serve me very well in other boats. The value is in the muscle memory gained as well as the sheer joy of complete engagement with the boat and the sea. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, Hope I can jump in hear before calling it a night. The Tidrace Xcite is a little more purpose oriented toward sloppy stuff in currents. And sure, for playing in rips, I think the Xcite would be my favourite kayak, having tried it. BTW, I've paddled with Frank Goodman and spent a bit of time chatting him up about the Nordkapp HM and HS. Though he and Matt Broze came at things differently, they relly dedicated themselves to perfection. Sure, other designers and companies make a variety of fantastic product now, but these two guys remain my heros for that dedication. As for getting back to a bit of reserve bouyancy, it can't hurt and it never will. My reserve bouyancy rests in my paddle blades which is just something I prefer, for now. Doug > Carey, > I think your post misses the point. We are not discussing a big wide > stable boat in rough conditions. The question is whether a small bit of > reserve buoyancy (as suggested at the Tiderace site) and add to handling > ease in these conditions. Compare the Tiderace Excite to the Nordkapp LV, > both 21 inches in beam and similar lengths and similar design intent. The > Tiderace will have a bit more stability than the NLV, and perhaps give > better feedback in unruly water. The Tiderace is not going to incline to > 45 deg on such a wave any more than the NLV. One will just be more > comfortable and have to pay less attention to staying upright. I see only > advantages to this small increment in stability. > > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter, Interesting story and I do not question the fact that one can learn some things easier with a less stable boat. However, if I am choosing between two similarly dimensioned boats, designed for the same purposes, including rough water, and one of them has slightly more stability while not suffering any other handling or speed characteristic, then I would opt for the extra bit of stability. Why not? It would make no sense to me to choose lower stability for the purpose of learning technique. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "rebyl_kayak" <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com> To: "Jerry F" <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net>; "Doug Lloyd" <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>; "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:02 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Advice on boats > Jerry wrote >>I don't agree with getting a boat that is difficult to handle, just in >>order >>to learn it. For this reason I don't have a unicycle. > > G'day Jerry, > > Let me give an example as I have a Pittarak and a Mirage. > > The Pittarak is a rudderless expedition boat that doesn't have well > defined > secondary stability, needs really good edging skills to handle well in a > following sea, or to turn on the spot. It is also sturdy, excellent into a > headwind and in short, large, choppy sea or clapotis. Its the easiest boat > to > get off a surf beach that I know of because of its rocker, sharp bow and > strength and the most comfortable I've ever paddled. This is the boat that > ensured without any great conscious effort that I gained a useful set of > skills in manoevering a kayak in choppy following seas. > > The Mirage 580 on the other hand is a ruddered boat and a perfect example > of a > fine kayak that is fast, and straightforward for most kayakers to handle > in a > wide variety of conditions and perfect for tough expeditions. However, it > has > a fixed rudder which makes getting it off a surf beach possible but > awkward if > the rudder digs into the sand. It has a reputation for being a a bit > difficult > to turn on a dime and I know noone who uses it without the rudder. > > When I first tried the Mirage (with the rudder removed) I was suprised to > find > that it turned easily, because I was prepared to edge it properly. So the > possibilities for this boat are greatly expanded, for example it can be > manoevered easily from standstill in rough water for a rescue. If I had > paddled nothing but this boat I would probably have thought it hard to > turn > quickly, or to use without the rudder. > > So the skills unconsciously learn't and the strength developed while > kayaking > in a boat that forced me to use my whole body serve me very well in other > boats. The value is in the muscle memory gained as well as the sheer joy > of > complete engagement with the boat and the sea. > > All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, I was not familiar with the Wilcox review. Thanks. Let me slice out a few points that struck me: Doug wrote: > Some of my post was purposefully subjective. As you have correctly > implied, defending the "twitchiness" of the Nordkapp often comes down to a > certain subjectivity. Jerry says: No doubt. But the Nordkapp LV is such a beautiful boat, with so many accolades as a wonderful rough water boat, that I would love to love it myself. Unfortunately I have not been able to. And it is because of the sploosh effect, or fear thereof. Wilcox wrote: > However, as you edge an Alaw the boat becomes progressively stiffer and > more secure feeling, as you edge the Nordkapp LV it just keeps going over > smoothly until sploosh. There is no warning when you are just about at the > limit of secondary stability. Intermediates learning edging and bow rudder > strokes found the Alaws to be much easier." Jerry asks: All other things being equal, how does this lack of warning provide any benefit to even an advanced paddler? Wilcox writes: > "was expecting it to be manoeuvrable, given all that keel rocker, but I > was not expecting it to be fast. However, it accelerates to top speed with > fewer strokes than any other boat I have paddled. And what a burst speed > it has! The Nordkapp LV managed 11.6km/hr." Jerry says: A friend with a Nordkapp LV has done some comparative speed trials against some other boats (on flat water) and disputes any speed claim for the NLV. Doug wrote: >The Alaw's, Xcites and Romanys/Explorers are so incredible rock solid on >edge or when forced over in following seas unexpectedly there's just much >less chance for "sploosh" and more indication that you can keep an edge for >device-less directional control. Jerry says: After saying this, Doug, it is hard for me to contemplate an NLV vs one of these others. This incredible rock solidness has no associated negatives. Doug wrote: > So yes, why paddle a Nordkapp. Well, for the Nordkapp aficionado, the LV > rectifies a lot of the previous problems with the Classic, the H2O, and > Jubilee models. Jerry asks: I would ask why the Nordkapp afficionado prefers it to the rock solid boats you mentioned, not former Nordkapp models? If I could answer for you, or other afficionados, I would say that you just like it. Period. That your skills are such that the sploosh effect is simply not an issue. Doug wrote: > The speed issue is one important to me. Getting back in fast or clearing a > headland quickly are all important attributes for me. I tried a Seda > Glider out once. Fast. Awesome. But, in a lumpy sea and wind, forget it! Jerry says: Having owned one, I agree about the Glider in lumpy seas, especially wind. As for speed, I think more about getting an extra quarter knot at normal paddle speed than top or racing speed. I find that I get this in my new QCC 700X, but am not yet sure about lumpy seas. > > Doug Wilcox concludes: > in extreme conditions even experts appreciate secondary stability." > > He seems to agree with you Jerry in his last sentence above. Jerry says: Non-experts appreciate stability even more. But not too much stability. My whole point is not, stable vs unstable. Rather it is the advantage of a small bit of reserve buoyancy or feedback from chines in otherwise similar hulls. Doug wrote: > When I sit in an NDK or Tiderace, I'm immediately aware of certain > advantages. As seas get rougher - all the more. Do I enjoy the experience. > No. Not the same. A kayak is more than the sum of its parts. Kayak and > kayaker are one. When a kayaker is in a sea kayak they really enjoy, the > experience truly is greater than the sum of the parts. Jerry says: So you choose the romance of the NLV over 'certain advantages'. Well, who can explain true love? > I have not found that perfect experience yet. Everyone wants an exciting, > sexy, wild, good looking souse. Rarely is a frumpy, reliable, faithful and > true spouse not the best option in the long term. I'm looking for both (in > a kayak, that is). I'll let you know when I find it. :-) I look forward to the revelation. Meanwhile I am sticking with my wife. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Jerry asks: >All other things being equal, how does this lack of warning provide any >benefit to even an advanced paddler? Jerry, the crux of the statement above is where we diverge when thinking about this issue. My fundamental assumption is you can't change one thing without affecting something else. You can't have a lack of warning without something else being different too. That other thing might be spread out over a wide range such that the con effect may not be as readily perceived as the pro effect, but my belief is you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can have hands off stability in calm conditions, but you will spend more of your energy compensating for that at other times. Maybe it's only a bit harder to side-slip. Is that good or bad? Can't say. It's up to the paddler to make the choice. If it were possible to take my Solstace and make it always remain upright by itself in all conditions and while "all other things remain equal" I'd buy it in a minute! In fact I'll buy a bunch of them and become a distributor. <g> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote >However, if I am choosing between two similarly dimensioned boats, designed for the same purposes, including rough water, >and one of them has slightly more stability while not suffering any other handling or speed characteristic, then I would opt for >the extra bit of stability. Why not? It would make no sense to me to choose lower stability for the purpose of learning technique. G'day Jerry, That does make sense. I'm tending towards one "well behaved" boat for expeditions where the objective is to tackle long trips comfortably and safely and another boat that allows me to "learn" or "experiment". My friend has her comfortable expedition boat and is looking for something more. Learning, experimenting and playing take different people to different kinds of boat. One of my interests is in the effect of boats and paddles on muscle memory, as I don't have much, getting old! After a month or two in the Pittarak my hip flick and roll improves significantly and of course I could achieve the same result by diligently practising hip flicks. By the way I thought Robert's post touched on new ground worth exploring more. One doesn't often hear about the role of the human body in kayak design and dynamics. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, Nice summation and good integration of points and counter points. You must think about this stuff more than I do. Maybe get yourself a Nordkapp, paddle one a few years until the point where every righting movement for every righting moment is so automatic that you don't have to think about the physicality of the paddling anymore. Sure, you will still have the sploosh issue (or fear of) to contend with, but personally, the recovering from inverted position or a full-on scull to perpendicular if fully automatic now too with me, and part of the fun. :-) Okay, seriously, not sure how to respond here. As you can see, I have not purchased an NLV yet, perhaps happy that the LV corrects some of the Classic and Jubilee issues, but retains some of the unwanted sploosh effect still. A guy I know on Westcoastpaddler got an LV a while back, loved it, sold his Greenlander but has already ordered a Tiderace and is paddling a Whiskey 16. Of course, very few of these local paddlers go on long, extended trips on open water. I do know that the poly Nordkapp falls somewhere between the other Nordkapp extremes and has a more favorable secondary stability - and is plastic so good and strong (and Valley's plastic is awesome for such a long boat). I do like the NDK Explorer too, but that secondary stability kicks in too fast for my liking. If the Valley line is coming to Australia, the Poly Nordkapp will probably be a good seller. In the end Jerry, it is all a matter of degree with this stuff; and personal preference; and body type (fat-bummed vs tall versus female-form, whatever; different boats for different asses). Even Robert's excellent post arbitrarily sets the width parameter. Your original notion that a performance sea kayak with slightly more stability (primary and secondary in equal measure perhaps) should be more desirable that one without this improvement if that design retains similar performance roles is one I cannot disagree with. Who can? Craig has brought this issue up in earnest here before. Those dedicated to the rounder hull profile of a Nordkapp who appreciate some of the subtleties imparted while crossing chop, etc., will continue to either ask themselves if it is all worth it, put up with it, move to a more sploosh-free design, or do what I do when the surface is so unruly and retreat on purpose to the most stable, inverted position and take a break upside-down. I assume that isn't a strategy you employ with whatever design it is you paddle :-) Wilder yes, and wilder by degree most definitely, though I ask you again why most of the Nordkapp guys are still out there in the rough with big grins on their faces. Doug Lloyd. > Doug, > I was not familiar with the Wilcox review. Thanks. > > Let me slice out a few points that struck me: > > Doug wrote: >> Some of my post was purposefully subjective. As you have correctly >> implied, defending the "twitchiness" of the Nordkapp often comes down to >> a certain subjectivity. > > Jerry says: > No doubt. But the Nordkapp LV is such a beautiful boat, with so many > accolades as a wonderful rough water boat, that I would love to love it > myself. Unfortunately I have not been able to. And it is because of the > sploosh effect, or fear thereof. > > Wilcox wrote: >> However, as you edge an Alaw the boat becomes progressively stiffer and >> more secure feeling, as you edge the Nordkapp LV it just keeps going over >> smoothly until sploosh. There is no warning when you are just about at >> the limit of secondary stability. Intermediates learning edging and bow >> rudder strokes found the Alaws to be much easier." > > Jerry asks: > All other things being equal, how does this lack of warning provide any > benefit to even an advanced paddler? > > Wilcox writes: >> "was expecting it to be manoeuvrable, given all that keel rocker, but I >> was not expecting it to be fast. However, it accelerates to top speed >> with fewer strokes than any other boat I have paddled. And what a burst >> speed it has! The Nordkapp LV managed 11.6km/hr." > > Jerry says: > A friend with a Nordkapp LV has done some comparative speed trials against > some other boats (on flat water) and disputes any speed claim for the NLV. > > Doug wrote: >>The Alaw's, Xcites and Romanys/Explorers are so incredible rock solid on >>edge or when forced over in following seas unexpectedly there's just much >>less chance for "sploosh" and more indication that you can keep an edge >>for device-less directional control. > > Jerry says: > After saying this, Doug, it is hard for me to contemplate an NLV vs one of > these others. This incredible rock solidness has no associated negatives. > > Doug wrote: >> So yes, why paddle a Nordkapp. Well, for the Nordkapp aficionado, the LV >> rectifies a lot of the previous problems with the Classic, the H2O, and >> Jubilee models. > > Jerry asks: > I would ask why the Nordkapp afficionado prefers it to the rock solid > boats you mentioned, not former Nordkapp models? If I could answer for > you, or other afficionados, I would say that you just like it. Period. > That your skills are such that the sploosh effect is simply not an issue. > > Doug wrote: >> The speed issue is one important to me. Getting back in fast or clearing >> a headland quickly are all important attributes for me. I tried a Seda >> Glider out once. Fast. Awesome. But, in a lumpy sea and wind, forget it! > > Jerry says: > Having owned one, I agree about the Glider in lumpy seas, especially wind. > As for speed, I think more about getting an extra quarter knot at normal > paddle speed than top or racing speed. I find that I get this in my new > QCC 700X, but am not yet sure about lumpy seas. > >> >> Doug Wilcox concludes: >> in extreme conditions even experts appreciate secondary stability." >> >> He seems to agree with you Jerry in his last sentence above. > > Jerry says: > Non-experts appreciate stability even more. But not too much stability. > My whole point is not, stable vs unstable. Rather it is the advantage of > a small bit of reserve buoyancy or feedback from chines in otherwise > similar hulls. > > Doug wrote: >> When I sit in an NDK or Tiderace, I'm immediately aware of certain >> advantages. As seas get rougher - all the more. Do I enjoy the >> experience. No. Not the same. A kayak is more than the sum of its parts. >> Kayak and kayaker are one. When a kayaker is in a sea kayak they really >> enjoy, the experience truly is greater than the sum of the parts. > > Jerry says: > So you choose the romance of the NLV over 'certain advantages'. Well, who > can explain true love? > >> I have not found that perfect experience yet. Everyone wants an exciting, >> sexy, wild, good looking souse. Rarely is a frumpy, reliable, faithful >> and true spouse not the best option in the long term. I'm looking for >> both (in a kayak, that is). I'll let you know when I find it. :-) > > I look forward to the revelation. Meanwhile I am sticking with my wife. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > Your original notion that a performance sea kayak with slightly more > stability (primary and secondary in equal measure perhaps) should be more > desirable that one without this improvement if that design retains similar > performance roles is one I cannot disagree with. Who can? Craig has brought > this issue up in earnest here before. > > Well yeah... I have. I'm still grappling with the idea of an 18-foot boat being a "playboat"; but maybe it's because only 14 feet of it is actually in the water. But I'm starting to see that it's a matter of what you like. Let's face it, sitting on top of a 1-ton bull is downright stupid; but it's probably fun to see if you can do it and someone else can't. So there are people who sit on top of 1-ton bulls. In the same vein there are people who sit inside a boat that is too unstable to let them reach behind them for their lunch. It's no secret that I love the way a couple of the Mariner kayaks move in the water. I love to edge a boat and have it begin to carve a turn or have it settle in on a boat wake without the need for a brace. I like to sit out in front of my house and wait for some board boat to trundle by ballasted deep in the water and catch its wake for 100 yards and then turn around and wait for the next one. But while I'm waiting I like to relax and watch the bikin.... er, birds. Matt Broze has made the case that a well-designed boat needs neither rudder nor skeg and has put his mouth where his laptop is with a half-dozen hulls that really don't much need either of those. Unless you call the sliding seat a device designed to eliminate the flaws of the boat itself (which I don't think it is... but you could make that case). I like that subtlety of purpose. So if you actually *like* having a boat that you need to keep one paddle in the water for at all times and stay alert then who am I to say you're wrong? And Robert's point that all kayaks under about 24" wide are unstable in one way or another is a valid point that underscores the entire discussion. I just prefer to paddle a boat that doesn't *try* to kill me if my attention wanders a bit. :D Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well Craig, just buy a Nordkapp and you can become a 360 degree water man too (unlike Paul who is a 360 degree ditch man). :-) Doug Lloyd > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > >> >> Your original notion that a performance sea kayak with slightly more >> stability (primary and secondary in equal measure perhaps) should be more >> desirable that one without this improvement if that design retains >> similar >> performance roles is one I cannot disagree with. Who can? Craig has >> brought >> this issue up in earnest here before. >> >> Well yeah... I have. I'm still grappling with the idea of an 18-foot boat > being a "playboat"; but maybe it's because only 14 feet of it is actually > in > the water. > > But I'm starting to see that it's a matter of what you like. Let's face > it, > sitting on top of a 1-ton bull is downright stupid; but it's probably fun > to > see if you can do it and someone else can't. So there are people who sit > on > top of 1-ton bulls. In the same vein there are people who sit inside a > boat > that is too unstable to let them reach behind them for their lunch. > > It's no secret that I love the way a couple of the Mariner kayaks move in > the water. I love to edge a boat and have it begin to carve a turn or have > it settle in on a boat wake without the need for a brace. I like to sit > out > in front of my house and wait for some board boat to trundle by ballasted > deep in the water and catch its wake for 100 yards and then turn around > and > wait for the next one. But while I'm waiting I like to relax and watch the > bikin.... er, birds. > > Matt Broze has made the case that a well-designed boat needs neither > rudder > nor skeg and has put his mouth where his laptop is with a half-dozen hulls > that really don't much need either of those. Unless you call the sliding > seat a device designed to eliminate the flaws of the boat itself (which I > don't think it is... but you could make that case). I like that subtlety > of > purpose. > > So if you actually *like* having a boat that you need to keep one paddle > in > the water for at all times and stay alert then who am I to say you're > wrong? > And Robert's point that all kayaks under about 24" wide are unstable in > one > way or another is a valid point that underscores the entire discussion. > > I just prefer to paddle a boat that doesn't *try* to kill me if my > attention > wanders a bit. :D > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Well Craig, just buy a Nordkapp and you can become a 360 degree water man > too (unlike Paul who is a 360 degree ditch man). :-) LOL... I'll just come paddle the new one you are inevitably going to buy. :P Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On May 11, 2009, at 9:35 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > Well Craig, just buy a Nordkapp and you can become a 360 degree > water man too (unlike Paul who is a 360 degree ditch man). :-) I really thought I was going to roll the truck. Which meant I would have rolled my kayak and my truck at the same time. It's a very exclusive club to be in you know. Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:25 AM, Paul Montgomery <paul_at_paddleandoar.com>wrote: > > I really thought I was going to roll the truck. Which meant I would > have rolled my kayak and my truck at the same time. It's a very > exclusive club to be in you know. > > Yikes!!! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:25 AM, Paul Montgomery <paul_at_paddleandoar.com>wrote: > > > >>I really thought I was going to roll the truck. Which meant I would >>have rolled my kayak and my truck at the same time. It's a very >>exclusive club to be in you know. >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/kayakster/Kayaking#5334689707645523650 I'd classify that as an ender... Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A freestyler would say "Good crack!" Jackie Myers wrote: >> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:25 AM, Paul Montgomery > > http://picasaweb.google.com/kayakster/Kayaking#5334689707645523650 > > I'd classify that as an ender... -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think the photo alone is worth the $200. Craig On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net>wrote: > A freestyler would say "Good crack!" > > Jackie Myers wrote: > >> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:25 AM, Paul Montgomery >>> >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/kayakster/Kayaking#5334689707645523650 >> >> I'd classify that as an ender... >> > > -- > Steve Cramer > Athens, GA > http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On May 12, 2009, at 11:26 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > I think the photo alone is worth the $200. > > Craig SOLD! Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
LOL.... I.. uh... only meant that.... well.... as long as it happened.... you.... um.... at least got a picture. :P Craig On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Paul Montgomery <paul_at_paddleandoar.com>wrote: > On May 12, 2009, at 11:26 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > > > I think the photo alone is worth the $200. > > > > Craig > > SOLD! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm reading a lot of debate about what is a highly subjective (and personal) topic. Every hull was designed (and is often compromised) for a purpose... and every paddler has different needs, abilities, physical build/condition, and preferences. Who's to say what's best, worst, tippy, stable? Personally I think the Nordkapp LV is a dog... but that's me. A friend loves his, and that's him. It's up to every paddler to try as many kayaks on as he can to find the fit HE/SHE likes and acknowledge that tastes may, can, or will change. That's perfectly okay. A round (?tippy) hull can be be leaned at any angle and still feel exactly the same as it does sitting flat - if the paddler can bend his body back upright then no stability lost. Very efficient to paddle. Fast. Turns but needs skill to do it. A flat (?stable) hull can flip over and come down on you like a door slamming shut. Very inefficient to paddle. Slow. Turns easily. A V hull is a compromise, as is almost every commercial kayak made. I'll take predictability over maneouverability when the shiz hits the fan. ~~d *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pretty much all the play boats are dogs, but love the ruff stuff. Stability? I like a consistent continuum, without a strong secondary that suddenly goes out when it goes. I doubt I'll be buying another stock kayak myself. What do you paddle? Doug Lloyd > I'm reading a lot of debate about what is a highly subjective (and > personal) topic. Every hull was designed (and is often compromised) for a > purpose... and every paddler has different needs, abilities, physical > build/condition, and preferences. Who's to say what's best, worst, tippy, > stable? Personally I think the Nordkapp LV is a dog... but that's me. A > friend > loves his, and that's him. It's up to every paddler to try as many kayaks > on > as he can to find the fit HE/SHE likes and acknowledge that tastes may, > can, > or will change. That's perfectly okay. > > A round (?tippy) hull can be be leaned at any angle and still feel exactly > the > same as it does sitting flat - if the paddler can bend his body back > upright > then no stability lost. Very efficient to paddle. Fast. Turns but needs > skill > to do it. > > A flat (?stable) hull can flip over and come down on you like a door > slamming > shut. Very inefficient to paddle. Slow. Turns easily. > > A V hull is a compromise, as is almost every commercial kayak made. > > I'll take predictability over maneouverability when the shiz hits the fan. > > ~~d *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Same here: a Nordkapp HSC owner since 1998. Still lurking here, ;-) Ari Saarto Finland On 13. touko 2009, at 00:22, Doug Lloyd wrote: > > > I doubt I'll be buying another stock kayak myself. > > What do you paddle? > > Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm still enjoying my second Nordkapp (modified HM, rudder mount but no rudder yet, have old one from my last Nordkapp to put on one day). Just feels like home. Been light on the storm stuff. Thinking about a more east greenland kayak for next one. Doug > Same here: a Nordkapp HSC owner since 1998. > > Still lurking here, ;-) > > Ari Saarto > Finland > > > > On 13. touko 2009, at 00:22, Doug Lloyd wrote: >> >> >> I doubt I'll be buying another stock kayak myself. >> >> What do you paddle? >> >> Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:10 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > I'm still enjoying my second Nordkapp (modified HM, rudder mount but no > rudder yet, have old one from my last Nordkapp to put on one day). Just > feels like home. Been light on the storm stuff. Thinking about a more east > greenland kayak for next one. > > I was pretty impressed with the SOF technique I learned last week. Well, sorta learned. Some of the details are a bit fuzy but with a decent couple of books I'm sure I could turn something out that would float. We took 7 days at about 8 hours a day which did not include preparing the gunwales (cutting to length, mortising rib inserts, etc.) or fabricating the cockpit rim so perhaps another 10 or 15 hours of work. What's most impressive is that once you get the hang of it I'm pretty sure you could turn out a boat in a lot less time. The implications of this are pretty interesting. The materials costs are minimal once you get some basic tools and materials. A few hundred bucks worth of wood can let you build quite a few kayaks. Brian Schulz (Cape Falcon Kayaks) uses plastic wrap to make a temporary skin that's just strong enough for him to get the feel of the boat without going through the full skin-and-seal production. The advantages over Stitch-and-Glue (S&G) would be the ability to have both round and chined hulls even in the same boat. Nor do you need plans and precise cutting skills for the plywood. Want an east greenland boat? Just go look at Harvey's website and pick one and then go reprpduce it in your garage over a few weeks. I'm thinking about a boat for the kids and then maybe a fun rollling boat for those hot summer days on the lake. <grin> By the way, there are at least three SOF boats in Victoria (two F-1s and one greenland type). Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: >But I'm starting to see that it's a matter of what you like. Let's face it, >sitting on top of a 1-ton bull is downright stupid; but it's probably fun to >see if you can do it and someone else can't. So there are people who sit on >top of 1-ton bulls. G'Day, Wow do people really do that! Where can I buy a swimming bull? What paddle would I use? :~) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rebyl_kayak wrote: > Craig wrote: >> But I'm starting to see that it's a matter of what you like. Let's face it, >> sitting on top of a 1-ton bull is downright stupid; but it's probably fun to >> see if you can do it and someone else can't. So there are people who sit on >> top of 1-ton bulls. > > G'Day, > > Wow do people really do that! Where can I buy a swimming bull? What paddle > would I use? :~) Sheesh, Peter, with all the free bull you get on Paddlewise, why would you go lay down good money for one? Oh, OK, you want a _Greenland_ bull. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rebyl_kayak wrote: > Wow do people really do that! Where can I buy a swimming bull? You usta could buy one from Oldsmobile, but they're out of business now. (There's a pun lurking in here that may be gibberish to non-USAans). Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rebyl_kayak wrote: >Craig wrote: > > >>But I'm starting to see that it's a matter of what you like. Let's face it, >>sitting on top of a 1-ton bull is downright stupid; but it's probably fun to >>see if you can do it and someone else can't. So there are people who sit on >>top of 1-ton bulls. >> >> > >G'Day, > >Wow do people really do that! Where can I buy a swimming bull? What paddle >would I use? :~) > >All the best, PeterO > You can do that here (paddlefree -single, tandem or trois).... http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1445595633068358069DyxTnS Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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