I did a 4.5 sm paddle yesterday in blustery winds up to about 25kts. The interesting thing was that even with the relatively short (1 or 2 statute miles) the wind raised the occasional 18-inch wave with a period short enough to occasionally wash over my Mariner Express. Surfing downwind was a blast, however. However I do have a question about the size of the waves which, I think, are unusual given the wind speed and the fetch. The lake (Moses Lake) is pretty shallow with depths of 12 to 20 feet maximum and I was paddling in waters about typical. I've noticed that winds across this lake tend to produce steep waves that are close together and seem larger than those conditions would produce on salt water. Does fresh water react differently to wind conditions than salt water or is it mostly a result of the shallow water? Anyone have any thoughts on this?] Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Craig, Fresh water is less dense than salt, and kicks up sooner. Whitecaps would appear on Lake Erie around 12 kts while here on salt it's more like 15. I would reckon that other wave characteristics are likewise observed sooner. Carey -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Craig Jungers Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 1:06 PM To: Paddlewise Paddlewise Subject: [Paddlewise] Fresh water lake paddling I did a 4.5 sm paddle yesterday in blustery winds up to about 25kts. The interesting thing was that even with the relatively short (1 or 2 statute miles) the wind raised the occasional 18-inch wave with a period short enough to occasionally wash over my Mariner Express. Surfing downwind was a blast, however. However I do have a question about the size of the waves which, I think, are unusual given the wind speed and the fetch. The lake (Moses Lake) is pretty shallow with depths of 12 to 20 feet maximum and I was paddling in waters about typical. I've noticed that winds across this lake tend to produce steep waves that are close together and seem larger than those conditions would produce on salt water. Does fresh water react differently to wind conditions than salt water or is it mostly a result of the shallow water? Anyone have any thoughts on this?] Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: >>>>I did a 4.5 sm paddle yesterday in blustery winds up to about 25kts. The interesting thing was that even with the relatively short (1 or 2 statute miles) the wind raised the occasional 18-inch wave with a period short enough to occasionally wash over my Mariner Express. Surfing downwind was a blast, however. However I do have a question about the size of the waves which, I think, are unusual given the wind speed and the fetch. The lake (Moses Lake) is pretty shallow with depths of 12 to 20 feet maximum and I was paddling in waters about typical. I've noticed that winds across this lake tend to produce steep waves that are close together and seem larger than those conditions would produce on salt water. Does fresh water react differently to wind conditions than salt water or is it mostly a result of the shallow water? Anyone have any thoughts on this?<<<<<<< Waves going over the bow of an Express you say. My those were short steep waves indeed! Sort of like going into a steep boat wake I imagine. Your observations are astute. Fresh water is less dense than salt water and for the same wind and fetch conditions the waves wilbuild quicker and be steeper as a result. Also as you already seem to indicate, when the water depth gets to be about half of the wave length (and less) the waves "feel" (are slowed by the bottom) so the wave length gets shorter (and therefore the waves get progressively steeper as the water shallows. The same effect that happens on a beach that waves are coming into, eventually creating breakers when the water shallows enough that the waves get too steep to hold their wave shape against gravity. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, Sorry we missed you this summer. We did get out for some fresh water lake paddling on the island. I wish I had some spare cash for an Elan. Would be a great kayak for choppy lakes and would have been appreciated by Yvonne I'm sure for down-wind, rudderless surfing. Yeah, that chop on fresh water comes up fast and furious. Here's a link to out family water vacation: http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=3208 Doug Lloyd >I did a 4.5 sm paddle yesterday in blustery winds up to about 25kts. The > interesting thing was that even with the relatively short (1 or 2 statute > miles) the wind raised the occasional 18-inch wave with a period short > enough to occasionally wash over my Mariner Express. Surfing downwind was > a > blast, however. > > However I do have a question about the size of the waves which, I think, > are > unusual given the wind speed and the fetch. The lake (Moses Lake) is > pretty > shallow with depths of 12 to 20 feet maximum and I was paddling in waters > about typical. I've noticed that winds across this lake tend to produce > steep waves that are close together and seem larger than those conditions > would produce on salt water. Does fresh water react differently to wind > conditions than salt water or is it mostly a result of the shallow water? > Anyone have any thoughts on this?] > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Craig, You wrote: > However I do have a question about the size of the waves which, I > think, are unusual given the wind speed and the fetch. The lake > (Moses Lake) is pretty shallow with depths of 12 to 20 feet maximum > and I was paddling in waters about typical. I've noticed that winds > across this lake tend to produce steep waves that are close > together and seem larger than those conditions would produce on > salt water. Does fresh water react differently to wind conditions > than salt water or is it mostly a result of the shallow water? I'd have to go with "depth of water", and other factors... Though I've paddled in high winds in both saltwater and lakes, the length of fetch and variations in depth (and current/swell in saltwater) make it pretty hard to make direct comparisons. I really don't think that just salt vs. fresh water is going to make any real difference though. I doubt that even a slight difference in density would make any appreciable difference with regards to wind wave conditions. Perhaps the most frequent salt/fresh water comparison I can make from my own recent experience (past 12 years) is between North Bay in Grays Harbor and Lake Quinault. Though Quinault has a bit of fetch, it's not nearly as long a fetch as in the bay (unless, perhaps, the wind is blowing almost directly east/west, which is rare for the bay). The bay also has swell, currents and shoals that combine with wind to create particular conditions, and Lake Quinault is a very deep lake. North bay has its deeper spots, but it's also fairly shallow in places (in addition to the even more shallow shoal areas). Hmmm...the more I go on, the less I feel I can compare between these two! :) Anyway...I've had steep and deep wind wave conditions in both the bay and the lake, with waves crashing over the deck in both, but the shallower bay with its longer fetch and opposing currents and wind wins hands down with regards to the height, steepness, closeness, and chaos (can produce heavy "clapotis-like" conditions with just opposing wind, current, and swell--no need for steep cliffs to bounce off of). Just a couple weeks ago, I was in the bay with this clapotis-like condition, and from the crest to the trough, these chaotic little waves were about two feet over my head when I was in a trough, and when on the crests, the wind did its best to blow me over in a hurry. Lots of water crashing over the deck. If the wind is blowing in from the west, in the shallower area of eastern Lake Quinault (close to the river entrance, where the incoming flow of the river can oppose the wind), the waves can get pretty high and steep. Still though, never nearly as high, steep, or chaotic as the waves the bay can produce with the same amount of wind. Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: Does fresh water react differently to wind conditions than salt water or is it mostly a result of the shallow water? I don't paddle on salt water enough to have observations to share. But I have paddled on different rivers with different amounts of mud in them. The most dramatic differences have been on Grand Canyon trips. On three of my trips we have started with green water and ended with brown, due to rain storms washing silt and soil in from the side canyons. There is a HUGE difference when the water is brown. A green wave hitting your face feels like water, a brown wave feels like being hit with a sandbag. A green wave hitting the side of the bow changes the vector of the boat a little, a brown wave turns you around. Not knowing anything about physics, I would guess that it takes more energy to create a wave out of heavier water than clear water. We have all seen how rain can flatten small waves. And have you ever seen what a little bit of oil can do to waves? We once took some plates that had peanut butter on them and washed them in the ocean. After a few minutes there was big calm spot radiating out from us. There were just little wind ripples, but the oil wiped them out. Ben Franklin used to do this same trick, using oil that was in his cane. A quote from his writings: "At length being at Clapham, where there is on the common a large pond which I observed one day to be very rough with the wind, I fetched out a cruet of oil and dropped a little of it on the water. I saw it spread itself with surprising swiftness upon the surface; but the effect of smoothing the waves was not produced; for I had applied it first on the leeward side of the pond where the waves were greatest; and the wind drove my oil back upon the shore. I then went to the windward side where they began to form; and there the oil, though not more than a teaspoonful, produced an instant calm over a space several yards square which spread amazingly and extended itself gradually till it reached the lee side, making all that quarter of the pond, perhaps half an acre, as smooth as a looking glass. After this I contrived to take with me, whenever I went into the country, a little oil in the upper hollow joint of my bamboo cane with which I might repeat the experiment as opportunity should offer, and I found it constantly to succeed." Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 6:25 AM, James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: > > And have you ever seen what a little bit of oil can do to waves? Oil is such an effective modifier to waves - even large waves - that it was common practice for sailors to leak oil from bags tied to the stern when lying hove-to in storms. This was considered to be a survival tactic and was discussed in sailing literature as recently as the 1980s. It's probably now considered old-fashioned by the sailing elite with new technology but I expect that it's still used even now by small boat sailors. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Or you could just dip an Elvis impersonator in the water. BRC Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 6:25 AM, James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: > >> >> And have you ever seen what a little bit of oil can do to waves? > > > Oil is such an effective modifier to waves - even large waves - that it was > common practice for sailors to leak oil from bags tied to the stern when > lying hove-to in storms. This was considered to be a survival tactic and > was discussed in sailing literature as recently as the 1980s. It's probably > now considered old-fashioned by the sailing elite with new technology but I > expect that it's still used even now by small boat sailors. > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That's pretty much my experience. A wipeout in the Canyon is usually pretty dramatic. When wave #5 on Hermit explodes it's something like one of Saddam's lost WMDs. I learned fairly fast to hit the shoulders of waves and run from the peaks as we only had 3 days of green water. The following photo was taken at the confluence of the Little Colorado and the Colorado: http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2024211730067748792uszAjU Did I mention to keep your eyes closed when rolling? Cheers, Rob G Jim wrote: I don't paddle on salt water enough to have observations to share. But I have paddled on different rivers with different amounts of mud in them. The most dramatic differences have been on Grand Canyon trips. On three of my trips we have started with green water and ended with brown, due to rain storms washing silt and soil in from the side canyons. There is a HUGE difference when the water is brown. A green wave hitting your face feels like water, a brown wave feels like being hit with a sandbag. A green wave hitting the side of the bow changes the vector of the boat a little, a brown wave turns you around. Not knowing anything about physics, I would guess that it takes more energy to create a wave out of heavier water than clear water. We have all seen how rain can flatten small waves. And have you ever seen what a little bit of oil can do to waves? We once took some plates that had peanut butter on them and washed them in the ocean. After a few minutes there was big calm spot radiating out from us. There were just little wind ripples, but the oil wiped them out. Ben Franklin used to do this same trick, using oil that was in his cane. A quote from his writings: *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Probably the bigger hazard is the transition from salt to fresh water at the mounth of a river delta, such as the fishboats that sometimes flounder entering the Frazer River overloaded. Not a big concern for a kayak hull however. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Why just dip? You can drag the impersonator bleaching oil out as well as have a drogue! DL > Or you could just dip an Elvis impersonator in the water. > > BRC > > Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > >> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 6:25 AM, James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: >> >>> >>> And have you ever seen what a little bit of oil can do to waves? >> >> >> Oil is such an effective modifier to waves - even large waves - that it >> was >> common practice for sailors to leak oil from bags tied to the stern when >> lying hove-to in storms. This was considered to be a survival tactic and >> was discussed in sailing literature as recently as the 1980s. It's >> probably >> now considered old-fashioned by the sailing elite with new technology but >> I >> expect that it's still used even now by small boat sailors. >> >> Craig Jungers >> Moses Lake, WA >> www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Why just dip? You can drag the impersonator bleaching oil out as well as > have a drogue! > > Drogues are very effective in crossing a bar. I've drogued a few girls out of bars myself. :D Craig Jungers and another thread hits the gutter www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You really can't kill a good thread. I took a drift boat trip down the Drogue River in southern Oregon once, and it was gorgeous. The Elvis impersonators had the day off, but we did con a salmon into joining us in the boat. Brad Crain Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > >> Why just dip? You can drag the impersonator bleaching oil out as well as >> have a drogue! >> >> Drogues are very effective in crossing a bar. I've drogued a few girls out > of bars myself. :D > > Craig Jungers > and another thread hits the gutter > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
So if we drag an Elvis impersonator en drogue, what are we really talking about? Where's my dictionary? Would Jack Nicholson work as well? Brad Crain Quoting Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>: > Why just dip? You can drag the impersonator bleaching oil out as > well as have a drogue! > > DL > > >> Or you could just dip an Elvis impersonator in the water. >> >> BRC >> >> Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: >> >>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 6:25 AM, James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> And have you ever seen what a little bit of oil can do to waves? >>> >>> >>> Oil is such an effective modifier to waves - even large waves - that it was >>> common practice for sailors to leak oil from bags tied to the stern when >>> lying hove-to in storms. This was considered to be a survival tactic and >>> was discussed in sailing literature as recently as the 1980s. It's probably >>> now considered old-fashioned by the sailing elite with new technology but I >>> expect that it's still used even now by small boat sailors. >>> >>> Craig Jungers >>> Moses Lake, WA >>> www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
An oily Elvis impersonator wrapped in drag around a para-anchor deployed astern in heavy weather would be triply effective in that there would be a release of oil as the sea anchor unfurls the Elvis impersonator in the water, thankfully releasing the impersonator to the depths forever, while the drogue anchor slows the boat while the storm passes. Unless of course you use a Pardy Bridle, in which case you would need some kinky horsewomen who don't mind partying with an Elvis impersonator in drag. I would think the proper use of good storm management would include using strong lash downs on board, as well as good handholds and the use of lee cloths until seas abate. Based on the last sentence, a better bet than Jack Nicholson would be a S&M fat guy in diapers (lash downs, handholds, loin cloths - er, lee cloths). C's will abate to an B- or even an A+ with a bit more pedagogy from Craig on this topic, as he's a more knowlegable sailor. Alternatively, just throw your recyclable items into the ocean directly. The biggest danger sailing swollen seas is being hit by green waves. By not recycling in an environmentally suitable manner, the waves will not be "green" anymore. But that may be just as irresponsible as pouring oil into the ocean. Maybe try used tunafish cans and oldd olive oil bottles - incorporating doubly good ideas (unlike my humour). So yeah, for kayakers, just use a little Dapper Dan, then if you roll in following seas... Doug Lloyd (not a Dapper Dan Man) > So if we drag an Elvis impersonator en drogue, what are we really > talking about? Where's my dictionary? Would Jack Nicholson work as well? > > Brad Crain > > > Quoting Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>: > >> Why just dip? You can drag the impersonator bleaching oil out as well as >> have a drogue! >> >> DL >> >> >>> Or you could just dip an Elvis impersonator in the water. >>> >>> BRC >>> >>> Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: >>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 6:25 AM, James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> And have you ever seen what a little bit of oil can do to waves? >>>> >>>> >>>> Oil is such an effective modifier to waves - even large waves - that it >>>> was >>>> common practice for sailors to leak oil from bags tied to the stern >>>> when >>>> lying hove-to in storms. This was considered to be a survival tactic >>>> and >>>> was discussed in sailing literature as recently as the 1980s. It's >>>> probably >>>> now considered old-fashioned by the sailing elite with new technology >>>> but I >>>> expect that it's still used even now by small boat sailors. >>>> >>>> Craig Jungers >>>> Moses Lake, WA >>>> www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > An oily Elvis impersonator wrapped in drag around a para-anchor deployed > astern in heavy weather would be triply effective.... The effect is diminished until the Elvis impersonator stops thrashing around and creating wavelets. C's will abate to an B- or even an A+ with a bit more pedagogy from Craig on > this topic, as he's a more knowlegable sailor. Grade inflation is everywhere these days. Brad or Kruger should have a better handle on that. As for me, pedagogy is practically my middle name. > > Alternatively, just throw your recyclable items into the ocean directly. > The biggest danger sailing swollen seas is being hit by green waves. By not > recycling in an environmentally suitable manner, the waves will not be > "green" anymore. But that may be just as irresponsible as pouring oil into > the ocean. Maybe try used tunafish cans and oldd olive oil bottles - > incorporating doubly good ideas (unlike my humour). Oddly enough they used to use whale oil (which they carried for lamps) which, I suppose, could be considered "green recycling". Just don't make a mistake and buy tuna packed in water as that would, I am pretty sure, negate any positive effects. A really big fan mounted on the stern pointed into the wind might be additive to the wind vector and do some good re: sea state. > So yeah, for kayakers, just use a little Dapper Dan, then if you roll in > following seas... > A little dab'll do ya. Craig Jungers dead calm in Moses Lake www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
List, I asked Craig about this: Craig, Other than slowing a kayaking and giving it control in extreme surf, what are the practical benefits of carrying a drogue or sea anchor in a kayak? I suppose a good sea anchor would help stop you dead in the water more or less (notwithstanding current) if you got caught in an offshore wind and perhaps blue water kayakers doing long crossings where there's a possibility of extreme storms, but other than that, is it worth carrying one? Kayaking seems to be the antithesis of the luxury motor yacht and world-class sailing vessels with every imaginable gadget and luxury in many cases, the kayak being measured by the essential minimalism while the former, the opposite. I'm trying to cut down on gear, not add more. I've long considered a slowing device but most offshore wind situations I need every second to power back in, not mess around with devices. Similarly, in extremis, fidgeting for a device and or finding adequate storage compounds the issue unless I was in a big Klepper. Guess you'd just call the Mothership - sorry, Muthaship. :-) Doug. > On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > >> An oily Elvis impersonator wrapped in drag around a para-anchor deployed >> astern in heavy weather would be triply effective.... > > > The effect is diminished until the Elvis impersonator stops thrashing > around > and creating wavelets. > > C's will abate to an B- or even an A+ with a bit more pedagogy from Craig > on >> this topic, as he's a more knowlegable sailor. > > > Grade inflation is everywhere these days. Brad or Kruger should have a > better handle on that. As for me, pedagogy is practically my middle name. > >> >> Alternatively, just throw your recyclable items into the ocean directly. >> The biggest danger sailing swollen seas is being hit by green waves. By >> not >> recycling in an environmentally suitable manner, the waves will not be >> "green" anymore. But that may be just as irresponsible as pouring oil >> into >> the ocean. Maybe try used tunafish cans and oldd olive oil bottles - >> incorporating doubly good ideas (unlike my humour). > > > Oddly enough they used to use whale oil (which they carried for lamps) > which, I suppose, could be considered "green recycling". Just don't make a > mistake and buy tuna packed in water as that would, I am pretty sure, > negate > any positive effects. A really big fan mounted on the stern pointed into > the > wind might be additive to the wind vector and do some good re: sea state. > > >> So yeah, for kayakers, just use a little Dapper Dan, then if you roll in >> following seas... >> > > A little dab'll do ya. > > Craig Jungers > dead calm in Moses Lake > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There are people that are going to disagree with this, but I'm going to tell you why I carry a drogue on known surf days and do everything I can to not use it. If you are on a trip and someone goes seasick and becomes top heavy ballast, they need shore. Sometimes that is through surf. A drogue will keep the boat perpendicular. It will also slow the boat down. You can trip the drogue with a secondary line and speed up between sets. Then you have all that line in the water if you and a raft support member goes over. Like I said, I'd do everything I can to not use it. However, injured or unresponsive and top heavy ballast in a kayak has to get to shore and in the surf I'd use it if I had to. Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> To: paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Fri, Jul 31, 2009 9:38 am Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Fresh water lake paddling List,B B I asked Craig about this:B B Craig,B B Other than slowing a kayaking and giving it control in extreme surf, what are the practical benefits of carrying a drogue or sea anchor in a kayak? I suppose a good sea anchor would help stop you dead in the water more or less (notwithstanding current) if you got caught in an offshore wind and perhaps blue water kayakers doing long crossings where there's a possibility of extreme storms, but other th an that, is it worth carrying one?B B Kayaking seems to be the antithesis of the luxury motor yacht and world-class sailing vessels with every imaginable gadget and luxury in many cases, the kayak being measured by the essential minimalism while the former, the opposite. I'm trying to cut down on gear, not add more. I've long considered a slowing device but most offshore wind situations I need every second to power back in, not mess around with devices. Similarly, in extremis, fidgeting for a device and or finding adequate storage compounds the issue unless I was in a big Klepper. Guess you'd just call the Mothership - sorry, Muthaship. :-)B B Doug.B B B > On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote:B >B >> An oily Elvis impersonator wrapped in drag around a para-anchor deployedB >> astern in heavy weather would be triply effective....B >B >B > The effect is diminished until the Elvis impersonator stops thrashing > aroundB > and creating wavelets.B >B > C's will abate to an B- or even an A+ with a bit more pedagogy from Craig > onB >> this topic, as he's a more knowlegable sailor.B >B >B > Grade inflation is everywhere these days. Brad or Kruger should have aB > better handle on that. As for me, pedagogy is practically my middle name.B >B >>B >> Alternativ ely, just throw your recyclable items into the ocean directly.B >> The biggest danger sailing swollen seas is being hit by green waves. By >> notB >> recycling in an environmentally suitable manner, the waves will not beB >> "green" anymore. But that may be just as irresponsible as pouring oil >> intoB >> the ocean. Maybe try used tunafish cans and oldd olive oil bottles -B >> incorporating doubly good ideas (unlike my humour).B >B >B > Oddly enough they used to use whale oil (which they carried for lamps)B > which, I suppose, could be considered "green recycling". Just don't make aB > mistake and buy tuna packed in water as that would, I am pretty sure, > negateB > any positive effects. A really big fan mounted on the stern pointed into > theB > wind might be additive to the wind vector and do some good re: sea state.B >B >B >> So yeah, for kayakers, just use a little Dapper Dan, then if you roll inB >> following seas...B >>B >B > A little dab'll do ya.B >B > Craig JungersB > dead calm in Moses LakeB > www.nwkayaking.netB ************************************************************************* **B PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressedB here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entireB responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings c opyright the author.B Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.netB Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.netB Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/B ************************************************************************* **B *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob said: There are people that are going to disagree with this, but I'm going to tell you why I carry a drogue on known surf days and do everything I can to not use it. Like Rob, I too frequently carry a drogue on known surf days. I have only had to use mine in practice, and really would do everything possible to not have to use it in surf, but it's the only way I know to get a sick paddler who can't stay upright without help to shore. It's also important to use a really long tow line if possible. At a past symposium, I was taught to forget the rule of using a line at least 2 wave lengths long and try to attach additional tow lines and go for about 4 wave lengths. Although that puts a lot more rope in the water, it greatly decreases the odds of the towee running over the tower. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I really appreciate this conversation about drogues (never mind the subject line). My wife has always been leery of surf landings. Next time she has to do one I'm going to hook my tow rope to her stern and throw the bag and belt into the water behind her. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Many discoveries in science happen by accident. For example, in S. California, storm water runoff and sewer effluent are sometimes mixed and dumped onto the beaches, much to the delight of the ecoli-loving surfer dude crowd. You would think that such a toxic brew would knock those waves down immediately, but to the contrary, California recently experienced a spate of 20-foot waves. So now we know what doesn't flatten those pounding waves: pure science sans politics. One also suspects that if an Elvis impersonator convention were to be relocated from Las Vegas to Redondo Beach, the surfers would be out of business, and the kayakers would lose their edge. Brad Crain Doug Llyod composed: > An oily Elvis impersonator wrapped in drag around a para-anchor deployed > astern in heavy weather would be triply effective in that there would be a > release of oil as the sea anchor unfurls the Elvis impersonator in the > water, thankfully releasing the impersonator to the depths forever, while > the drogue anchor slows the boat while the storm passes. Unless of course > you use a Pardy Bridle, in which case you would need some kinky horsewomen > who don't mind partying with an Elvis impersonator in drag. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Craig Jungers proffered > Oddly enough they used to use whale oil (which they carried for lamps) > which, I suppose, could be considered "green recycling". Just don't make a > mistake and buy tuna packed in water as that would, I am pretty sure, > negate > any positive effects. A really big fan mounted on the stern pointed into > the > wind might be additive to the wind vector and do some good re: sea state. > > >> So yeah, for kayakers, just use a little Dapper Dan, then if you roll in >> following seas... >> > > A little dab'll do ya. Craig, Other than slowing a kayaking and giving it control in extreme surf, what are the practical benefits of carrying a drogue or sea anchor in a kayak? I suppose a good sea anchor would help stop you dead in the water more or less (notwithstanding current) if you got caught in an offshore wind and perhaps blue water kayakers doing long crossings where there's a possibility of extreme storms, but other than that, is it worth carrying one? Kayaking seems to be the antithesis of the luxury motor yacht and world-class sailing vessels with every imaginable gadget and luxury in many cases, the kayak being measured by the essential minimalism while the former, the opposite. I'm trying to cut down on gear, not add more. I've long considered a slowing device but most offshore wind situations I need every second to power back in, not mess around with devices. Similarly, in extremis, fidgeting for a device and or finding adequate storage compounds the issue unless I was in a big Klepper. Guess you'd just call the Mothership - sorry, Muthaship. :-) Doug. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > Other than slowing a kayaking and giving it control in extreme surf, what > are the practical benefits of carrying a drogue or sea anchor in a kayak? Strictly speaking a drogue is deployed from the stern and a sea anchor from the bow. I have not found sea anchors to be very useful when I've experimented with them. From our sailboat a sea anchor invariably held the boat beam-to the sea which I attributed to the location of the mast forward of the center-of-effort of the boat. In my old troller the result with a sea anchor was much the same but we had trolling poles which may have acted just like a mast. I no longer have a sea anchor but if I get one I'll try it from the muthah-ship and see how that reacts. I have deployed lines in a U-shape from the stern but since both of my big boats were double-enders I never thought there was enough bight in the U to really do much. A drogue made by sandwiching an old automobile tire between boards (secured together through the middle) works well according to reports I've heard and read about. Probably not effective on a kayak though. :P The advantage to a sailboat in surf is that you can rig a storm jib in the fore-triangle which would reduce the tendency of the boat to broach in a following sea. The combination of drogue and a storm jib. > I suppose a good sea anchor would help stop you dead in the water more or > less (notwithstanding current) if you got caught in an offshore wind and > perhaps blue water kayakers doing long crossings where there's a possibility > of extreme storms, but other than that, is it worth carrying one? As I indicated above, I've never found a "sea anchor" (deployed from the bow) to be effective in keeping the bow into the sea. It would probably slow you down a lot but the risk of a capsize in beam-seas would be incrased. I wouldn't carry one unless you could also deploy it as a drogue. Rob's idea of using a drogue seems to me to be a lot more practical. I wonder if he's ever experimented with it as a training exercise. I think I'd also try a large-diameter (3/4" or so) length of line (poly might be best as it floats) as a drag device. If you can secure the line with one end port and the other starboard you would have a U for maximum drag and it would be a *lot* easier to undeploy (just let one end loose). > > Kayaking seems to be the antithesis of the luxury motor yacht and > world-class sailing vessels with every imaginable gadget and luxury in many > cases, the kayak being measured by the essential minimalism while the > former, the opposite. I'm trying to cut down on gear, not add more. I've > long considered a slowing device but most offshore wind situations I need > every second to power back in, not mess around with devices. Similarly, in > extremis, fidgeting for a device and or finding adequate storage compounds > the issue unless I was in a big Klepper. Guess you'd just call the > Mothership - sorry, Muthaship. :-) Using the muthah-ship can actually simplify kayaking. You no longer need to carry food and shelter in the kayak, for instance. This means you can use a smaller kayak which would (presumably) be more nimble in the rough stuff. No more paddling 10 miles to a good place to explore either. You can have spare paddles handy but not have to carry them. Safety is enhanced if you have someone on the mothership who can up-anchor and come to the rescue or use the higher-power VHF with a better antenna to summon help. The downside of the mothership idea is that the temptation to put gadgets on the big boat can be overwhelming. Just as an example, I bought a 400w inverter from Wal-Mart for $49 just before we left last week so we could keep our iPhones and the portable VHF charged up. It's not much but it's still another gadget. Solar panels, big screen GPS (I have a Garmin 3006 ready to install), radar, depth sounders, etc. I think that barring incapacity (as Rob mentions in his post) the fewer things you have to fiddle with on your kayak the better. (Although I do like the idea of the "sea seat" you use... too bad no one makes them any more.) In Brit-boats you will need all your skill just to keep the boat upright in extremis. Yet another reason I like the Coaster/F-1 concept. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: Rob's idea of using a drogue seems to me to be a lot more practical. I wonder if he's ever experimented with it as a training exercise. I think I'd also try a large-diameter (3/4" or so) length of line (poly might be best as it floats) as a drag device. If you can secure the line with one end port and the other starboard you would have a U for maximum drag and it would be a *lot* easier to undeploy (just let one end loose). >>>>>>> I have but only in practice and they are terribly slow in surf. The trip line to release the drogue between sets speeds it up a bit. They encompass risk as on their useage there is now rope in the water in surf of some state. Not fun. But what are you going to do if someone pops a shoulder and there are no recreational or commercial boats about? I've talked a sea sick pal, who was in the absolute miserableness that condition offers, through 2 lines of 5 foot surf. He had been towed about an hour, face down on his rafted partner's deck. There was little rip to the surf and my reasoning was if he swam, we could let the boat go in and he could grab my stern and become a drogue for me. The other option was to use the surf drogue and risk the fingers and general health of his raft partner. It's easy to misjudge the timing of sets when other things are to be worried about. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I really appreciate this conversation about drogues (never mind the subject line). My wife has always been leery of surf landings. Next time she has to do one I'm going to hook my tow rope to her stern and throw the bag and belt into the water behind her. Steve -- This sounds good on a sandy beach. What if the beach is rocky or you have to go in through rock garden conditions? Anyone ever had concerns or problems with the line hanging up in rocks? Including when the kayak is on the beach and the drogue isn't? Pam in Washington State **************A bad credit score is 600 & below. Checking won't affect your score. See now! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgI D=62&bcd=JulyBadfooterNO62) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Good point, Pam. I mostly paddle on the southern Atlantic coast. We don't have rocky beaches. I certainly wouldn't drag a line through rock gardens. Steve Pamvetdr_at_aol.com wrote: > This sounds good on a sandy beach. What if the beach is rocky or you > have to go in through rock garden conditions? > Anyone ever had concerns or problems with the line hanging up in > rocks? Including when the kayak is on the beach and the drogue isn't? > Pam in Washington State -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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