Paul wrote: >Peter, do your local PLB & EPIRB retailers hide behind the 'Local >Registration' barrier to allow them to double the price on the devices - the >way the NZ stores do ? >(I've just checked on that McMurdo unit and it sells today in Auckland for >just over 2x Westmarine's price - which could certainly be bettered online. >That's outrageous.) G'Day Paul, Looks as if the McMurdo Fast Find PLB is also double the price in Whitworths Australia compared with Westmarine; but Whitworth's range of EPIRB's seem to be competitive or cheaper than Westmarine; so I think it must be a marketing ploy relating to supply and demand for a new and desirable product, which may well be on restricted supply to Australia. That happens quite a lot here. Re EPIRBs vs PLBs. I'm considering whether to buy an EPIRB to meet the letter of the law when paddling in waters where Maritime regulations require one. However, simply meeting the letter of the law isn't enough, at Aus$700 to Aus$1000 one would wish to buy something useful. I wouldn't buy an EPIRB without a GPS and certainly wouldn't choose one without a GPS instead of a PLB with a GPS. 100 metres resolution for 24 hours (PLB with GPS) seems far more useful to a kayaker than two nautical miles resolution for 48hrs (EPIRB without GPS). If I buy an EPIRB with a GPS they mostly seem to come with an automatic water activation feature that requires a docking station, so to prevent false alarms I could not store it on the deck or in the cockpit, where their may not be enough room and where it might accidentally be knocked out of its docking station and activated. It would seem to be necessary to store it in the front or rear of the kayak behind the bulkhead. However, getting access to the EPIRB in an emergency is then very awkward and puts the flotation of the kayak at risk. It seems as if obeying the letter of the law in this instance risks my life or increases the probability of false alarms. Can anyone describe a setup on a sea kayak that might work safely with an EPIRB/GPS rather than a PLB/GPS. Otherwise I might write to Maritime and point out the difficulties. I'm sure I won't be the first to do this. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter said on xxx > I wouldn't buy an EPIRB without a GPS and certainly wouldn't choose one > without a GPS instead of a PLB with a GPS. 100 metres resolution for 24 hours > (PLB with GPS) seems far more useful to a kayaker than two nautical miles > resolution for 48hrs (EPIRB without GPS). This does seem to be a clear-cut instance of the regs pushing you to a very sub-optimal solution. Perhaps just carry a PLB - on your PDF - and, when inspected, offer it up with an innocent expression. Let the officer who is 'correcting' you explain how you would be safer with a larger device stored remotely in the hull. My suspicion is that he'd suggest you 'bring yourself into compliance' - while completely understanding why you won't... if he allows himself to notice the 'deficiency' at all. Often these guys have some remnants of common sense ;-) That being said, some don't - so Godspeed on the pursuit of better regulations. Best Regards Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of rebyl_kayak Sent: Friday, 6 November 2009 10:01 To: pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz; Paddlewise Subject: [Paddlewise] EPIRB vs PLB; with and without GPS Paul wrote: >Peter, do your local PLB & EPIRB retailers hide behind the 'Local >Registration' barrier to allow them to double the price on the devices - the >way the NZ stores do ? >(I've just checked on that McMurdo unit and it sells today in Auckland for >just over 2x Westmarine's price - which could certainly be bettered online. >That's outrageous.) G'Day Paul, Looks as if the McMurdo Fast Find PLB is also double the price in Whitworths Australia compared with Westmarine; but Whitworth's range of EPIRB's seem to be competitive or cheaper than Westmarine; so I think it must be a marketing ploy relating to supply and demand for a new and desirable product, which may well be on restricted supply to Australia. That happens quite a lot here. Re EPIRBs vs PLBs. I'm considering whether to buy an EPIRB to meet the letter of the law when paddling in waters where Maritime regulations require one. However, simply meeting the letter of the law isn't enough, at Aus$700 to Aus$1000 one would wish to buy something useful. I wouldn't buy an EPIRB without a GPS and certainly wouldn't choose one without a GPS instead of a PLB with a GPS. 100 metres resolution for 24 hours (PLB with GPS) seems far more useful to a kayaker than two nautical miles resolution for 48hrs (EPIRB without GPS). If I buy an EPIRB with a GPS they mostly seem to come with an automatic water activation feature that requires a docking station, so to prevent false alarms I could not store it on the deck or in the cockpit, where their may not be enough room and where it might accidentally be knocked out of its docking station and activated. It would seem to be necessary to store it in the front or rear of the kayak behind the bulkhead. However, getting access to the EPIRB in an emergency is then very awkward and puts the flotation of the kayak at risk. It seems as if obeying the letter of the law in this instance risks my life or increases the probability of false alarms. Can anyone describe a setup on a sea kayak that might work safely with an EPIRB/GPS rather than a PLB/GPS. Otherwise I might write to Maritime and point out the difficulties. I'm sure I won't be the first to do this. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day Paul and Paddlewise, I contacted NSW Maritime who confirmed that an EPIRB is required when any boat registered or otherwise is further than 2nm from land and they emphasise a PLB by itself is not satisfactory, even in a kayak. I explained the issues and NSW Maritime understood the problem of accidental activation of an EPIRB that has water activation capability, and the risk of swamping if it were stored fore or aft of a kayak behind the bulkheads. After consideration they have recommended a unit that does not have GPS and can only resolve to within 5km. They are certainly trying to be helpful but haven't picked up on the essential need for GPS capability if a kayaker is using an EPIRB. If a kayaker was in trouble and had both an EPIRB without a GPS or a PLB with a GPS, which should the kayaker use and which would be most accessible? I hope the answer to these two questions is obvious. Less clear is whether using both would be appropriate or cause confusion? I'll ask the questions on Monday and depending on the answers may follow through with a request for a review of the legislation on safety grounds; unless I can find a reasonably sized EPIRB with GPS capability and without the water activation feature. Does anyone know if such is available? During my search so far I've only found PLBs incorrectly advertised as EPIRBS and EPIRBS with manual release and activation that are also water activated. Two other possibilities are a purpose built water proof case for the EPIRB on the deck, which could interfere significantly with self rescue capability; or a proposal to take two PLB's for 48 hour capability. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO said on 6 November 2009 : > find a reasonably sized EPIRB with GPS capability and without the > water activation feature. Does anyone know if such is available? Best one I can think of is this. It calls itself a PLB but has 48 hour capability - what does that mean under the Australian regs ? McMurdo FastFind MaxG PLB with GPS and 48 Hour Battery http://www.safetyatsea.co.nz/epirb.asp or http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/ 352495/377%20710/0/McMurdo/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377 %20710&Ne=0&Ntt=McMurdo&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao= 0&Ns=0&keyword=McMurdo%20&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=8&subdeptNum=52&classNum =53 Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paul wrote >Best one I can think of is this. It calls itself a PLB but has 48 hour >capability - what does that mean under the Australian regs ? >McMurdo FastFind MaxG PLB with GPS and 48 Hour Battery >http://www.safetyatsea.co.nz/epirb.asp <http://www.safetyatsea.co.nz/epirb.asp> G'Day and thanks Paul, That looks like an interesting option. I don't believe it is a substitute because of the requirement for an EPIRB to float in water so as to provide an optimal signal but I'll check with AMSA on Monday. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At the risk of being flippant, you could point out that if the thing is attached to you (as you expect) - and you are floating - then the device is floating. If you are not floating... there's not a lot of point in the device being afloat. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand From: rebyl_kayak [mailto:rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com] Sent: Saturday, 7 November 2009 00:42 To: pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz; Paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] EPIRB vs PLB; with and without GPS Paul wrote >Best one I can think of is this. It calls itself a PLB but has 48 hour >capability - what does that mean under the Australian regs ? >McMurdo FastFind MaxG PLB with GPS and 48 Hour Battery >http://www.safetyatsea.co.nz/epirb.asp G'Day and thanks Paul, That looks like an interesting option. I don't believe it is a substitute because of the requirement for an EPIRB to float in water so as to provide an optimal signal but I'll check with AMSA on Monday. All the best, PeterO [demime 1.01e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This has been an interesting dialog. However, I have to wonder, because the requirement to have an EPIRB aboard seems extreme, as does, to a lesser extent, a requirement for a PLB: Is this sort of requirement simply handed down from from on high or is there a process incorporating feedback from the affected parties which leads to such a decision? NZ and OZ are not so culturally different from the US that I would expect the former. Rather, I would expect the taking of testimony or other counsel from paddling groups and the public for something like this. Typically, if it becomes a legal requirement, it would normally be acted on by a legislative body, wouldn't it? And wouldn't there be opportunity for concerned parties to offer testimony? Am I missing something? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day Paul and Dave, Paul wrote >you could point out that if the thing is attached to you (as you expect) > - and you are floating - then the device is floating Paul, AMSA might raise their point that EPIRBS are designed to float vertically and PLB's are not: "An EPIRB activated on land or in a boat must remain vertical to ensure the signal is not greatly degraded. Similarly, PLBs although waterproof and constructed to float, are not designed to float upright so if activating a PLB at sea it should be supported so that its antenna remains vertical and out of the water." Regarding this I'd be interested to know if an EPIRB floating in water is really much more efficient than a PLB attached with the antennae vertical on a life jacket and when would sea conditions disrupt either the floating vertical antennae or lifejacket configurations. Strikes me it could be hard to test the practicality of the lifejacket configuration without activating the PLB. More questions for AMSA and perhaps there's a test report on the subject somewhere? Dave wrote: >Is this sort of requirement simply handed down from from on high >or is there a process incorporating feedback from the affected parties >which leads to such a decision? Dave The Australian government decided not to support 121.5MHz beacon use following the February 2009 decommissioning of COSPAS SARSAT satellite detection for 121.5MHz beacons. They required that we switch to 406MHz beacons. There was a consultation with the community over this for several years. During the process and at relatively short notice the decision to make a clear distinction between EPIRBs and PLBs was made. There was much less community consultation and the needs of sea kayakers were not so much ignored as not thought about. Sea kayaking issues with PLBs vs EPIRBs were raised informally a year ago just before the legislation was passed. Nothing much public has come out of the discussion and a very few checks with retailers and kayakers show me that they think the matter is uncertain and still being reviewed - but as far as I know no-one has checked. Paul's email reminded me that I should check formally as I regularly travel further than 2nm from shore. I found the requirement in New South Wales to carry an EPIRB was quite definite. These Paddlewise emails help to test my arguments before I approach the NSWSKC, Australian Canoeing, AMSA and the State Maritime authorities with a submission for clarification and change if necessary. Maritime authorities in Australia seem to have a quite varied willingness to consider the circumstances of sea kayakers. For example Western Australia has for many years required sea kayakers to carry an anchor for no obviously good reason, whereas South Australia has just shown a deal of flexibility and commonsense in responding to a request for change. I appreciate the feedback, its good to have these sanity checks. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Apart from the legal questions concerning the issue of EPIRB vs PLB the practical questions about keeping the PLB antenna free of the water are interesting to me. I acquired an ACR ResQFix a year ago and keep it in a pocket on my PFD. It floats but only when kept in its neoprene cover. To activate it you need to take it out of the cover. The neoprene cover doesn't keep the antenna pointed upwards and prevents the PLB from being stored in the delivered bracket. My choice is to pull the PLB out from the pocket and afterwards attach the PLB to a bracket that I can fasten to the patch on my PFD which means leaving the neoprene cover to it self. It's a pretty awkward procedure but I have practiced a drill to use when floating in my dry suit. I'm considering just fastening the PLB with a leash and discard the neoprene cover completely. I wrote ACR for advice but never got an answer. I don't want to bring a regular EPIRB along because of its size but in Denmark my PBL is registered by the authorities as an EPIRB belong to the same boat (kayak) as my handheld VHF. In Scandinavian waters I expect a response within the 24 hours of activity offered by a PLB. I expect the chances of survival in cold water to become small if I have to wait longer for a rescue. My question is whether there really is a need for more than 24 hours (such as possible with the McMurdo PLB) and whether anyone has a practical solution for the antenna problem. Jens Viggo Moesmand Denmark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jens Viggo Moesmand wrote: >My question is whether there really is a need for more than 24 hours >(such as possible with the McMurdo PLB) and whether anyone has a >practical solution for the antenna problem. G'Day Jens and Paddlewise, I'd also like to ask whether the sea acts as a necessary groundplane to improve an EPIRBs sensitivity and is the sea connected in some special way to the EPIRB at RF frequencies to achieve this? Or is it simply the vertical orientation of the antennae that's important? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jens wrote on 9 November 2009 > anyone has a practical solution for the antenna problem. It seems to me (with no vestige of authority ;-), that EPIRBs and PLBs must be expected - by their makers and by their certifying authorities - to be intended to be used very, very near to the surface of the sea. Presumably, many will be used from a dinghy, a life raft or perhaps while sitting on a semi-submerged hull (of that which used to keep you dry). Any significant wave activity is going to interfere somewhat with antenna orientation and line-of sight to low-azimuth satellites. If the satellite is overhead, it should be OK for line-of-sight. I don't know enough about the satellites in question - and I imagine your location on the globe will be quite significant - as it is for GPS reception. Anyway - there won't be a hell of a lot you can do about any of that... If you have the antenna out of the water - you must be nearly as good as a 'standard man in a life-raft'. If you have the antenna in the water, I suspect you are nowhere. So, I would aim to carry the PLB as high up on my PFD as I could - in a pocket of some sort - which allowed (God forbid !) good access for activation and a safe place to secure it while it did its job. At the moment, I carry my small VHF in a mesh-fronted pocket, high on the right shoulder-strap of my PFD. That puts it very close to my (better) ear - so that I can hear it in all but extreme wind and it's a one-handed job to grab it and transmit when I need to. The pocket actually opens to the side (Velcro flap) and is a snug, 'push-fit' for the radio - which makes it very easy to get it out (to talk) & then positively return it. I made this 'pocket' (easily on a home sewing machine) to wrap round the PFD strap like an armband. It is held on extremely securely - wrapped onto itself with an 75 x 120 mm area of Velcro. I cannot separate the Velcro until I remove the PFD - but then it easily comes undone and leaves the PFD completely un-modified. If the VHF should fall out of the pocket, it is also tied round the strap of the PFD on a short lanyard. Forces required to separate me from the VHF are obviously possible - but might leave me uninterested in subsequent events. If & when I take the plunge with a PLB - I am thinking that the other shoulder strap will be sporting a similar pouch. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paul Hayward wrote: <<It seems to me (with no vestige of authority ;-), that EPIRBs and PLBs must be expected - by their makers and by their certifying authorities - to be intended to be used very, very near to the surface of the sea.>> Haven't followed this thread carefully, so apologies if I'm repeating info from earlier posts, but, from Navy experience and a little professional technical knowledge, I can stipulate that Paul's spot on in his analysis. Having been in the combat search and rescue business for the U.S. Navy for a while -- if a while back -- and in the distress beacon business, I can confirm that personal locator beacons, generally, are designed to be operated effectively by a swimmer, occasionally submerged while in operation, and remain functional for the majority of the time. We have radio beacons installed in floating modules in Navy inventory that are designed to deploy from aircraft in crash scenarios and to broadcast distress messages; these modules are equipped with fixed antennas in their skin. Higher and drier is better, but in water and occasionally awash still works. Satellite reception and fixation is more problemmatic, but the systems still work, and would work better in Paul's scenario -- held high on a personal flotation device strap. (Many transmitters have spring-like antennas that deploy to an upright position when the system is activated, increasing the signal strength and minimizing attenuation caused by overwash.) To Paul's point, it's also likely that a swimmer in Aukland would have better GPS reception and distress signal transmission than a swimmer in a fjord off the South Island, and the South Islander would have better GPS reception and distress signal transmission than would a swimmer in McMurdo Sound because of lattitudinal limitations and satellite exposure. Offsetting this, the deterioration in signal strength in these scenarios would be more than offset by deterioration in the swimmer's environmental scenario and exposure, thus decreasing the amount of time each swimmer would have to worry about declining signal strength. Joq Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Martin, Jack wrote: > To Paul's point, it's also likely that a swimmer in Aukland would have > better GPS reception and distress signal transmission than a swimmer in > a fjord off the South Island, [snip] Offsetting this, the deterioration > in signal strength in these scenarios would be more than offset by > deterioration in the swimmer's environmental scenario and exposure, thus > decreasing the amount of time each swimmer would have to worry about > declining signal strength. Emphasizing the bottom line: "deterioration in the swimmer's environmental scenario and exposure ... " is the determining factor Where I paddle, I'd be very fortunate to get eight hours of survival in the water. Period. I think PeterO's decision to go with the PLB is the right one for anyone paddling on cold waters, Goretex dry suit or not. Thanks, Joq. Always good to get beta from a pro. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Paul wrote >At the moment, I carry my small VHF in a mesh-fronted pocket, high on the >right shoulder-strap of my PFD. Thanks a lot. I will make a Velcro-closed pocket for the shoulder strap of my PFD. That's better than the supplied bracket. The VHF is already attached to a patch on the other side of the PFD where I operate it much like you. With VHF on the chest, a spotlight on one shoulder and a possible PLB on the other there is no more free room on the top of the torso. Regards Jens Viggo Moesmand Denmark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Jens Viggo Moesmand <jensviggo_at_moesmand.dk>wrote: > > With VHF on the chest, a spotlight on one shoulder and a possible PLB on > the other there is no more free room on the top of the torso. > > Let's just pray that they don't decide to make kayakers carry radars. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day, Thanks to Jens for asking the question about the proper location for a PLB and to Paul and Jack for supplying the detailed answer. My reading also confirms that a PLB should be worn high near the shoulder with the antenna vetical, just as Paul and Jack explain. A rough estimate shows that this is within a radio wavelength of the sea surface so the sea will act as a 'radio mirror' or ground plane to direct the signal upwards in much the same way as an EPIRB floating in the sea would. AMSA and NSW Maritime are willing to discuss the issue. I've found detailed answers to my questions so a submission will include the points listed below plus points relating to human behaviour and emergency signalling raised by the professional kayakers working with me. I'd be grateful if anyone can see any holes in the arguments or who may have additional points worth including. USE OF CLASS 1 EPIRBs IN A SEA KAYAK 1. A class 1 EPIRB is required to release and activate under hydrostatic pressure of between 3 to 10 feet of water. The chances of a false alarm when used in a sea kayak are therefore extremely high if it were fitted on the deck and subject to waves, surf, rolling and the stresses of a rescue. 2. A class 1 EPIRB is so large that if it were fitted in the cockpit it would prevent safe exit from the kayak or effective re-entry. 3. A class 1 EPIRB is in most cases too large to fit in a kayak day hatch 4. Storing a class 1 EPIRB in the front or rear hatches of a kayak places the kayak at serious risk of being swamped in the effort to retrieve the EPIRB in an emergency at sea In conclusion it is not possible to safely use a Class 1 EPIRB in a sea kayak at sea without running a significant risk of false alarms and impeding essential kayaker rescues USE OF CLASS 2 EPIRBs IN A SEA KAYAK 1. Class 2 EPIRBs do not automatically activate under hydrostatic pressure so are much less susceptible to false alarm when used with a kayak. 2. They are relatively large and could significantly impede normal kayaker rescues. 3. There are none commercially available that are fitted with a GPS. In conclusion a PLB with GPS would provide a far safer alternative than a Class 2 EPIRB when used for sea kayaking. The only reason to choose a Class 2 EPIRB over a PLB is to meet the requirements of a regulation that is dangerous and ineffective when applied to sea kayaks SIGNALLING EFFICACY OF PLBs VS EPIRBs 1. Some EPIRBs can be activated automatically and this is a false alarm hazard when they are used with sea kayaks. PLBs cannot be activated automatically and in this respect less susceptible to false alarms 2. A PLB is designed to be worn on the person while an EPIRB is designed to float in the water. Both modes transmit radio signals effectively to the emergency response authorities. 3. At least one PLB is available with a 48 hour capacity, strobe, GPS and with no automatic activation i.e. when compared with EPIRBs this PLB is functionally equivalent or superior in every respect for sea kayaking emergency signalling. While checking all this out I came across some informative web sites listed below: - Classes of EPIRB and activation requirements http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html <http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html> Comparative tests between an EPIRB and three PLBs http://www.equipped.org/406_GPS_beacon_test_report_2005.pdf <http://www.equipped.org/406_GPS_beacon_test_report_2005.pdf> McMurdo report on scenario testing for EPIRBs PLBs http://www.equipped.com/McMurdo%20406%20MHz%20Beacons%20Test%20Report%20HiRes .pdf <http://www.equipped.com/McMurdo%20406%20MHz%20Beacons%20Test%20Report%20HiRe s.pdf> A comparison of EPIRB and PLB functionality in general http://www.equipped.org/faq_plb/default.asp?Action=Q&ID=42 <http://www.equipped.org/faq_plb/default.asp?Action=Q&ID=42> Information on EPIRB and PLB standards http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf09186.html <http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf09186.html> An extremely comprehensive list of FAQs for PLBs http://www.equipped.org/faq_plb/default.asp <http://www.equipped.org/faq_plb/default.asp> ?" Details on how to get your PLB tested by the USCG in different states http://www.equipped.com/406testing.htm <http://www.equipped.com/406testing.htm> My mate Vince Brownings report on EPIRBs and a discussion with AMSA http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/magazine/53/epirb.htm <http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/magazine/53/epirb.htm> All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter, It looks as though you have an excellent presentation coming together. You touched on some of the problems of mounting an EPIRB on the deck of a sea kayak (or any kayak) but did not mention that mounting externally might actually degrade the performance of a kayak to an unsafe level. Kayaks are designed for the (the bottom) to be in water but, unlike "normal" boats, also the topsides. The EPIRB could make a significant difference in the way the kayak handles in wind and it could create a spray problem which would make it unsafe in wave action. In fact many sea kayakers make it a point to carry nothing on deck.. At least they're willing to listen. I wonder if they'd consider a SPOT device as an adequate substitute for EPIRB in additon to a PLB. In fact I wonder if they haven't gone to an obvious extreme just as a bargaining point. In other words, make the rule so onerous that those affected would be happy to get down to some lower level. So put forward a couple of lower alternatives (like just a GPS plus a VHF) yourself. Bargain towards the middle, in other words. There are some very good reasons that the GPS and VHF combination might even be more effective than any automated device; especially a device that stays with the boat and not with the paddler. I think I'd throw a few of them out. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter As Craig says, a well-thought-out argument. I believe you could strengthen it (only slightly) by concluding with a statement that, in an emergency, the device which can be used effectively is the best device. Any large EPIRB device which (a) must be kept internal to the kayak to avoid false triggering, or (b) must be mounted away from the cockpit to allow kayak self-rescues, or (c) must be mounted near the footpedals - to allow safe use of the cockpit is not well-placed to be used in bad sea conditions. A smaller, PLB which can be mounted on the kayaker will be available for effective use. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day Paul and Craig. Thanks very much and I'll incorporate both your comments. Craig you stimulated several additional thoughts regarding interference with: towing, providing assistance to a fellow paddler, carrying out normal and essential kayak manoevres and navigation. BTW I'm 100% with you on clear decks ever since I tried to roll with a deck bag attached by bungees. It filled with water and made an effective sea anchor and as the bungees streteched they stopped me from rolling up. So nothing on the deck for me except a mast, a map, a compass and behind me a throw bag - tow line. And Paul I like the finish off summary of what constitutes useful equipment. The professional kayakers here were thinking along similar lines and suggested that a PLB and VHF would be far more useful. They were also concerned that by the time people had paid for both a Class 2 EPIRB and a PLB they might wonder if a VHF was worth it. We've got a volunteer lawyer checking this and also the regulations to see if AMSA and the NSW Maritime are right about sea kayaks not beng exempt. I'll let you know how it progresses and again much appreciated. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Could you wear a helmet and mount the PLB on top of the helmet? It would then be mostly out of the water and pointed upwards, as long as you could tread water. I realize it might not look stylish, but maybe it would work. Bradford R. Crain Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] EPIRB vs PLB; with and without GPS > Jens wrote on 9 November 2009 >> anyone has a practical solution for the antenna problem. > > It seems to me (with no vestige of authority ;-), that EPIRBs and PLBs > must > be expected - by their makers and by their certifying authorities - to be > intended to be used very, very near to the surface of the sea. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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