G'Day, Thanks Robert for your posts and again to Dave for his. I've now got a much better sense of whets going on. Your explanation of the role of muscle in heat loss in thin active people fits very well with my experience and has demolished my scepticism. I'm going to have to focus on better and more clothing as well as eat more while practicing in cold water. Much appreciated, Petro *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-- And it's still a 29 degree temperature differential so you're certainly losing heat to your surrondings. When I lived in Florida I did a lot of scuba diving in the N. Fla springs, which typically ran over 70 degree temps. Without a wet suit (bare body), 20 minutes was about my maximum before I began to shiver. Wet suits helped a lot. Point is, as you all know from looking at the charts, all higher temps do is stretch the time until you gecome hypothermic. Instead, consider it a given to be planned for... Joe P. -----Original Message----- >From: PeterO >Not cold at all - 70deg F > >But in judging this, its body core temperature, the fuel that maintains it >and the clothing and layers of fat that insulate the body core, that matters >most to me. I'd had a good breakfast, was wearing five layers - rashie, >polartec vest, waterproof vest, wetsuit, cag and PFD. After about a couple >of hours activity in the water I was shivering and losing coordination. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-- And it's still a 29 degree temperature differential so you're certainly losing heat to your surrondings. When I lived in Florida I did a lot of scuba diving in the N. Fla springs, which typically ran over 70 degree temps. Without a wet suit (bare body), 20 minutes was about my maximum before I began to shiver. Wet suits helped a lot. Point is, as you all know from looking at the charts, all higher temps do is stretch the time until you gecome hypothermic. Instead, consider it a given to be planned for... Joe P. ___________ And then there are the strange and unexplainable exceptions --- Just on the TV noon news -- three fishermen capsized somewhere off northern Florida, lost their boat and life vests, and held on to a cooler for three days before being rescued this morning? Shorts and tee shirts, of course. They were able to walk off the rescue boat -- with a little help -- and had sores and jellyfish stings. And a lot of luck. One said that he wouldn't have made it another day. Some of those details may be questionable -- so let's hold for more complete reports. (For what it's worth, they all looked liked they had body mass indeces favorable to prolonged submersion.) Didn't see anything on this on the Internet news yet. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On May 20, 2010, at 12:37 PM, Martin, Jack wrote: > > And then there are the strange and unexplainable exceptions --- > > Just on the TV noon news -- three fishermen capsized somewhere off northern Florida, lost their boat and life vests, and held on to a cooler for three days before being rescued this morning? Shorts and tee shirts, of course. > > They were able to walk off the rescue boat -- with a little help -- and had sores and jellyfish stings. And a lot of luck. One said that he wouldn't have made it another day. Some of those details may be questionable -- so let's hold for more complete reports. (For what it's worth, they all looked liked they had body mass indeces favorable to prolonged submersion.) I told my wife and daughter about the two deaths. My 14 yr old daughter didn't seem to get it so I filled a glass with ice water and had her stick her hand in for about 30 seconds. She said it really hurt after about ten seconds. I seem to have made an impression. I had good reason to try and help her understand. She is going sea kayaking this summer in the PNW with the Adventure Treks group. Its sorta like NOLS for kids. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 5/20/2010 12:46 PM, James Farrelly wrote: > I told my wife and daughter about the two deaths. My 14 yr old > daughter didn't seem to get it so I filled a glass with ice water and > had her stick her hand in for about 30 seconds. She said it really > hurt after about ten seconds. I seem to have made an impression. How about a follow-up? Put her hand in a neoprene glove and see how long she can last. It may reinforce the habit of putting on that icky rubber suit every day and give her a little piece of mind. And you, too. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I find that I exhaust easily in cold water once submerged to neck level - even with typical-duty immesion wear if semi-submerged for any length of time and unable to re-enter or secure immediate rescue/help in a rough sea state. While a PFD may just prolong the inevitable, in the immediate, the combo of immersion gear and bouyancy mitigate some of the exhaustion. The recent Sea Kayaker magazine safety article where a guide was in storm-tossed waters for some time without his kayak demonstrated the utility of the PFD. And this was in warm water off Costa Rica. While Nick's post was most excellent, for me the skills, gear, experience equation - especially in a cold-water environment context - balances out the outcome survivability in an opened-ended incident when one has a number of reliable, assending back up plans. Doug Lloyd > On 5/20/2010 12:46 PM, James Farrelly wrote: > > I told my wife and daughter about the two deaths. My 14 yr old > > daughter didn't seem to get it so I filled a glass with ice > water and > > had her stick her hand in for about 30 seconds. She said it really > > hurt after about ten seconds. I seem to have made an impression. > > How about a follow-up? Put her hand in a neoprene glove and see > how long > she can last. It may reinforce the habit of putting on that icky > rubber > suit every day and give her a little piece of mind. And you, too. > > Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net>wrote: > > How about a follow-up? Put her hand in a neoprene glove and see how long > she can last. It may reinforce the habit of putting on that icky rubber suit > every day and give her a little piece of mind. And you, too. > An excellent idea!!! >From now on I'm going to ask every guide I meet in the San Juan Islands which outfit he/she works for. This should give me a better idea of which company does what better. I keep thinking about the dozen or so kids in kayaks with no PFDs, in swim suits, and led by two "guides" with no PFDs and in swim suits headed from James Island to Sucia Island. Well they had PFDs in the boats or on the decks or something. I think we asked them what outfit they were with but I don't remember the response. Pam might recall better than I do. I must admit to feeling somewhat like a reformed smoker trying to get everyone else to quit when it comes to this. Except for white water kayaking, for many years I, like all my friends, paddled in wool shirts, jeans and tennis shoes with a boat-type "lifejacket" behind the seat. Of course the kayaks were 28" wide; and I frankly don't recall anyone dying. Not many people just up and bought a kayak from Wal-Mart and launched it for a paddle into Deception Pass (although we floated through on logs - at age 18 - now and then). (In all fairness, Deception Pass 30 years ago was a lot safer without the power boat wakes.) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Re the "Florida" fishermen turned swimmers: okay, Georgia, not Florida. Thirty miles offshore, in the water for 48 hours. No details on temperatures. Video at http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/boaters-survive-clinging-cooler-10698149 By the way, this is in no way a refutation of Joe's posting. I've had the same experience -- last weekend doing a safety boating stint, actually, out of the boat most of the time. Got chilled even with a hybrid farmer john on. Everything Joe and Dr. Sutherland and others say is true. But once in a while, people get awfully lucky! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote >But in judging this, its body core temperature, the fuel that maintains it >and the clothing and layers of fat that insulate the body core, that matters >most to me. Joe P wrote >....Point is, as you all know from looking at the charts, all higher temps do is stretch >the time until you become hypothermic....... Jack Martin wrote >..........held on to a cooler for three days before being rescued this morning? >Shorts and tee shirts, of course........................(For what it's worth, >they all looked liked they had body mass indeces favorable to prolonged submersion.) G'Day, That body mass index is surely worth a lot. Differences in body surface area to mass ratio don't seem large enough to account for solidly built people lasting a day or so in cold water and thinner folks only lasting an hour or two. And I wouldn't think body fat is that great an insulator even though its sealed with an effective waterproof coating (skin). Really good insulators generally rely on trapping pockets of air small enough to avoid convective heat transport. So while thermal insulation is important, strikes me energy stored in fat or food could be particularly useful as well and might account for the striking difference in cold tolerance. Can fat be metabolised for fuel quickly enough to stay warm and might there be enough in larger people to last a day for a day or two? Would the right kind of emergency rations help and what would the ideal emergency rations be for cold water immersion? I imagine they wouldn't work for really cold water but they might make a significant difference at moderate temperatures. Is their any research around on emergency rations suitable for survival in moderately cold water (say down to 60 degrees F)? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: > That body mass index is surely worth a lot. Differences in body surface area > to mass ratio don't seem large enough to account for solidly built people > lasting a day or so in cold water and thinner folks only lasting an hour or > two. Peter, be careful here to avoid lumping people having a mass (of whatever source) in with people having a high fat/muscle content. Muscle is not a good insulator, but it does contribute to mass. > And I wouldn't think body fat is that great an insulator even though > its sealed with an effective waterproof coating (skin). Really good > insulators generally rely on trapping pockets of air small enough to avoid > convective heat transport. I believe you are thinking of "really good insulators" here as ones with high insulating value compared to their _mass._ In the sea, high mass is not a disadvantage, as long as some positive buoyancy is maintained. I suspect an inch of fat is as good an insulator as an inch of goose down, or nearly so. It is our go-light, go-fast mentality which prejudices us towards lightweight insulators. And, for structures, lightweight insulators are cheaper (air costs nothing) and work well between structural elements (aka walls). Sea creatures don't need the same structural elements bipedal land mammals do ... we have quite a bit of "wasted" bone structure for paddling (e.g., legs are pretty useless to paddlers). > So while thermal insulation is important, strikes me energy stored in fat or > food could be particularly useful as well and might account for the striking > difference in cold tolerance. Can fat be metabolised for fuel quickly enough > to stay warm and might there be enough in larger people to last a day for a > day or two? In short, no. Unlike bears and other similar mammals, we are not able to metabolize fat effectively without a carbohydrate input. And, we do not store enough carbohydrate (as glycogen) in our bodies to use much stored fat as an energy source. Peter, I think your skepticism about the insulating value of fat is misplaced. Never mind there is not air trapped in it ... blubber is a very good insulator. Just ask a whale. Remember, they are mammals, also. Fat people (what's this "solidly built" euphemism stuff, anyway?) are better survivors in cold water for their blubber. -- Blubber Dave (channeling for the Steller sea lion he was three incarnations ago) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote SNIP >In short, no. Unlike bears and other similar mammals, we are not able to >metabolize fat effectively without a carbohydrate input. And, we do not >store enough carbohydrate (as glycogen) in our bodies to use much stored >fat as an energy source. SNIP >Peter, I think your skepticism about the insulating value of fat is >misplaced. Never mind there is not air trapped in it ... blubber is a very >good insulator. Just ask a whale. Remember, they are mammals, also. SNIP G'Day Thanks Dave for the analysis. I agree that my use of "solidly built" and "body mass" wasn't very precise and probably I'm too precious about describing a body as "fat". So I'll talk about mass when describing energy sources for example a gram of carbohydrate vs. a gram of fat and I'll use length when talking about insulators for example comparing the insulation of an inch of blubber with an inch thickness of clothing. Many of my friends who have plenty of muscle and fat could last all day in water that had me mildly hypothermic in an hour or two, even while I was wearing a dry suit on one occasion. Hence my doubts. I've just done a quick check on thermal conductivities of muscle and fat using Google scholar. Their conductivities when isolated are only different by a factor of x2 while being greater than air by a factor of 10. In living tissue their 'effective' conductivities appear to overlap and to be 10 to 40 time greater than air. However this latter study seemed to depend on the degree of vascularisation. The last reference below at the bottom of this post gives a list of biological thermal conductivities. Given the conductivities involved, I'm finding it hard to grasp how human subcutaneous fat, blubber, whatever, is a sufficiently good insulator, to explain the survival of inadequately clothed people in the sea for three days. Its ability to insulate is certainly necessary but I still wonder if the reason that low fat bodies can't take the cold is also due to lack of the energy that fat may be able to provide. Regarding metabolising fat we might not be very good at it but we can still use it as an energy source although its last in speed of use in the chain from: blood sugar, glycogen in muscle, carbohydrate and then fat. From your comments it sounds as if we may not be able to metabolise fat fast enough? I can see that's true for using fats as an energy source in exercise but is it true for maintaining body heat? Maybe a useful emergency food would be a combination of carbohydrate and fat, but I suspect people with plenty of fat would win hands down - the premise being that they can store more in their bodies than most kayakers could in a dry bag or PFD. I'm no expert but can't say I'm convinced yet. BTW this isn't a surreptitious plug for Mars bars and I don't own shares in any chocolate factories. Some references - the first acknowledges the value of fat as an insulator in channel swimmers but also references the factor of two conductivity difference from muscle. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v178/n4524/abs/178087b0.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v168/n4282/abs/168918a0.html http://users.ece.utexas.edu/~valvano/research/Thermal.pdf http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mksg/sms/2004/00000014/00000002/art000 03 Abstract on fat metabolism All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fat is where most of our energy comes from in day to day life. That is where muscles are getting their energy by and large. The glycogen in the liver and glucose in the blood stream would not get you very far. When you go out for a walk, that energy is coming from fat -- not the glycogen in your liver. But we need sugar. The biggest problem is the brain. It cannot burn fat. The heart also uses a lot of sugar although it can shift over to more fat if need be. There is no pathway from fat to sugar. If you fast for a while then the body will start breaking down muscle to get the glucose it needs to feed the brain. The body can convert muscle to sugar. It cannot convert fat to sugar. We cannot just burn fat to stay warm. If we could, that would be great. We can burn fat to move muscles and that generally warms you up but in cold water moving muscles can work against you and eventually we get tired when moving muscles. When we go to sleep we get colder and if we are in extreme environment die. Even though there is plenty of fat to burn. On May 21, 2010, at 8:14 AM, PeterO wrote: > Regarding metabolising fat we might not be very good at it but we > can still > use it as an energy source although its last in speed of use in the > chain > from: blood sugar, glycogen in muscle, carbohydrate and then fat. > From your > comments it sounds as if we may not be able to metabolise fat fast > enough? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Livingston wrote: > Fat is where most of our energy comes from in day to day life. That is > where muscles are getting their energy by and large. The glycogen in the > liver and glucose in the blood stream would not get you very far. When > you go out for a walk, that energy is coming from fat -- not the > glycogen in your liver. > > But we need sugar. The biggest problem is the brain. It cannot burn fat. > The heart also uses a lot of sugar although it can shift over to more > fat if need be. > > There is no pathway from fat to sugar. If you fast for a while then the > body will start breaking down muscle to get the glucose it needs to feed > the brain. The body can convert muscle to sugar. It cannot convert fat > to sugar. > > We cannot just burn fat to stay warm. If we could, that would be great. > We can burn fat to move muscles and that generally warms you up but in > cold water moving muscles can work against you and eventually we get > tired when moving muscles. When we go to sleep we get colder and if we > are in extreme environment die. Even though there is plenty of fat to burn. Great summary, Robert. Ya gotta have some carbos on board to make use of fat over the long haul. We humans can not manufacture sugars (e.g., glucose) from fat. It has to come from stores (glycogen or, indirectly, from proteins) or from fresh input (recently ingested carbohydrates). Appreciate also, you pointing out in the earlier missive the enhanced loss of heat if the muscle tissue is not enveloped in surrounding fat. I think I'll go eat a brownie, or two, or three. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is not all a matter of conductive heat loss. A major cause of lost heat is blood flow. The surface of the body is maintained at a lower temperature when trying to retain heat. Blood flow works against this. The blood flow in fat is low. The blood flow in exercising muscle is high. If that muscle is close to the surface of the body, then a lot of heat will be lost. One reason that young, muscular men do poorly in cold water is that they are heavy (fat is more buoyant than muscle) so they have to swim more actively to keep their head above water and that drives more blood into their muscles which are close to the skin and that results in rapid cooling. (There is a lot of blood flow in the scalp so it helps to keep the head out of the water) A fat guy just floating along does better. On May 21, 2010, at 8:14 AM, PeterO wrote: > Given the conductivities involved, I'm finding it hard to grasp how > human > subcutaneous fat, blubber, whatever, is a sufficiently good insulator *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > Fat people (what's this "solidly built" euphemism stuff, anyway?) are > better survivors in cold water for their blubber. > > Bless you!!! :D Craig Jungers Moses Lake, Wa www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > Fat people (what's this "solidly built" euphemism stuff, anyway?) are > better survivors in cold water for their blubber. > > As a paddler and a formerly fat person, I can attest anecdotally to what Dave states. I've recently lost 53 lb and am no longer in the "obese" category. In the past, although I never liked cold water, I didn't get as cold as my friends when immersed in it. I almost never wore gloves or pogies. Now I find that even with my drysuit on, I need to wear more insulation than in the past. Also, even though the water is approaching 60 degrees now, I find that I had to wear gloves or pogies my last two times on the water. For me, the blubber did act as a good insulator. However, I'll stay thinner and just wear more layers. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-- Now having joined the ranks of the er, subcutaneous thermal insulation enhanced, I;m not so much susceptible to hypothermia as I once was. But I want to raise another question in the midst of all this. Teaching paddling around this time of year I will occasionally have a student in the drink. I often hear subsequently that once they got home they would go into a period of deep sleep, not necessarily one of exhaustion, and it takes them some time to get back to normal. This last Saturday I had a student who took a long swim on a broad river at 60 deg F. He was fine then and happily paddled another two miles to the takeout. Good on the way back, too. But yesterday he mentioned that he'd spent a lot of the last few days sleeping, and just never felt active during that period -- even had doubts about being able to perform this coming weekend. So, is this a common observation of what happens after a hypothermic challenge? Joe P. -----Original Message----- >On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: >> Fat people (what's this "solidly built" euphemism stuff, anyway?) are >> better survivors in cold water for their blubber. >> >Bless you!!! :D >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While not having personally experienced this, it would seem like a possible result depending on the treatment rendered after removing the person from the cold challenge. Additionally, this would be more likely, I would think, depending on where they really were on the hypothermic scale. The fact that they experienced this state of apparent exhaustion, would indicate to me that they were perhaps more hypothermic than thought post incident, i.e., greater medical danger than thought. With exposure to a cold challenge, in this case cold water, our body will go into a survival mode (shell-core shunt) where the blood will go from the extreminities to the vital organs to keep them at proper operating temperature. And, our body will try to generate heat by shivering. Both, can use a lot of the energy stores we have on-board at that point in time (same is true in someone having a seizure). Thus, treatment for anyone taking a "cold swim" would need to include replenishment of the energy store with simple sugars followed by more complex carbohydrates, and drinking water to keep hydrated. This is, of course, in addition to removal from the cold challenge, including dry clothing, insulation to retain heat, and protecting from the wind. While exercise (continuing to paddle) is good for heat generation, without replenishment of the energy store, we may make them worse off in the long run as we further deplete them. John Browning, EMT, WEMT Milwaukee, Wisconsin Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Joe P." <jpylka_at_earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:47:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) To: Paddlewise<PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold and skills -- Now having joined the ranks of the er, subcutaneous thermal insulation enhanced, I;m not so much susceptible to hypothermia as I once was. But I want to raise another question in the midst of all this. Teaching paddling around this time of year I will occasionally have a student in the drink. I often hear subsequently that once they got home they would go into a period of deep sleep, not necessarily one of exhaustion, and it takes them some time to get back to normal. This last Saturday I had a student who took a long swim on a broad river at 60 deg F. He was fine then and happily paddled another two miles to the takeout. Good on the way back, too. But yesterday he mentioned that he'd spent a lot of the last few days sleeping, and just never felt active during that period -- even had doubts about being able to perform this coming weekend. So, is this a common observation of what happens after a hypothermic challenge? Joe P. -----Original Message----- >On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: >> Fat people (what's this "solidly built" euphemism stuff, anyway?) are >> better survivors in cold water for their blubber. >> >Bless you!!! :D >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JoeP asked: >>This last Saturday I had a student who took a long swim on a broad river at 60 deg F. He was fine then and happily paddled another two miles to the takeout. Good on the way back, too. But yesterday he mentioned that he'd spent a lot of the last few days sleeping, and just never felt active during that period -- even had doubts about being able to perform this coming weekend. So, is this a common observation of what happens after a hypothermic challenge?<< While not having personally experienced this, it would seem like a possible result depending on the treatment rendered after removing the person from the cold challenge. Additionally, this would be more likely, I would think, depending on where they really were on the hypothermic scale. The fact that they experienced this state of apparent exhaustion, would indicate to me that they were perhaps more hypothermic than thought post incident, i.e., greater medical danger than thought. With exposure to a cold challenge, in this case cold water, our body will go into a survival mode (shell-core shunt) where the blood will go from the extreminities to the vital organs to keep them at proper operating temperature. And, our body will try to generate heat by shivering. Both, can use a lot of the energy stores we have on-board at that point in time (same is true in someone having a seizure). Thus, treatment for anyone taking a "cold swim" would need to include replenishment of the energy store with simple sugars followed by more complex carbohydrates, and drinking water to keep hydrated. This is, of course, in addition to removal from the cold challenge, including dry clothing, insulation to retain heat, and protecting from the wind. While exercise (continuing to paddle) is good for heat generation, without replenishment of the energy store, we may make them worse off in the long run as we further deplete them. John Browning, EMT, WEMT Milwaukee, Wisconsin Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ****************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day, Joe wrote >yesterday he mentioned that he'd spent a lot of the last few days sleeping, >and just never felt active during that period Joe it may be a coincidence but unless I'm in top fitness I experience a similar lethargy, though not as severe, and increased need for sleep for 1 to 2 days after cold exposure combined with heavy exercise. Also need to eat about twice as much as usual for the first day. For me that's just a normal response, sounded a bit extreme for your student though. Steve wrote: >For me, the blubber did act as a good insulator. However, >I'll stay thinner and just wear more layers. Steve can you describe what clothing works for you? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter O said: Steve wrote: >For me, the blubber did act as a good insulator. However, >I'll stay thinner and just wear more layers. Steve can you describe what clothing works for you? Let me preface this by saying that I am a WUSS when it comes to cold water. I was like this when I was fat and I still am. If the water temperature is around 65 deg F or colder and the air isn't so hot that I'd die of heat stroke, I usually wear a breathable drysuit and underneath it I wear anything from Polartec 200 on really cold days, to some lightweight polypro long underwear that I bought at REI. If it's really too warm for the drysuit, I usually am wearing a pair of shorts and a rashguard. Paddle jacket or drytop is usually worn or in the day hatch. Hope that helps, Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote >Let me preface this by saying that I am a WUSS when it comes to cold water. G'Day Steve And thanks for the info, as far as Wuzdom goes I'm with you! After last weeks discussion I figured 4 polartec vests under a neoprene vest and a half wet suit plus Cag plus PFD would be enough to provide a synthetic subcutaneous fat thermal equivalent provided the Polartec didn't absorb more than 50% water - I also figured the only food that was going to be adequate to survive the day was two icing coated muesli bars and a large bag of chocolate coated toffees; that way I had sugar for the brain, fat for the muscle and carbs for warmth. (If I've underrstood the discussion!) Then I went surfing for the day - and it worked! But it wouldn't have worked for long term survival - once I stopped moving and even out of the water it started to get cold again Different strategy need for surviving in the sea vs practising in the sea. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>-----Original Message----- >From: Joe P. >Sent: 21 May 2010 16:48 >To: Paddlewise >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold and skills >" This last Saturday I had a student who took a long swim on a broad >river at 60 deg F. He was fine then and happily paddled another two miles >to the takeout. Good on the way back, too. >But yesterday he mentioned that he'd spent a lot of the last few days >sleeping, and just never felt active during that period -- even had doubts >about being able to perform this coming weekend. " Greetings, from mid-England - and with no rain :-). On the face of it, could this simply be a combination of shock (or severe surprise :-) ) and unfamiliar exercise? Some novice paddlers have talked to me of sleeping well and deeply without having had the swim .. and after less than an hour's paddling on the river .. Thanks for the interesting re-threading ;-) and Regards Gillies *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
During a hypothermia study many years ago where folks were immersed into very cold water to see how fast their body temperatures dropped to (if I recall correctly, 95 degrees F. was the cut off point for the sake of safety). Anyway during these tests one fat kid's temperature dropped a few degrees and then stabilized at a point above the cut off and after many more hours than anyone else lasted they simply ended the test (but not because the kids temperature was getting lower. If you are fat enough your metabolism can keep up your body heat for a long time during cold water immersion. If the story is true, those guys rescued likely owe there lives to being fat (and the somewhat higher water temperatures down there). The second time I was in a kayak, and the second time I capsized one (both in Lake Washigton near Seward Park in succesive winters) I was trapped in the new spraydeck (that just didn't come off easily like a different spraydeck did the first time) and had to struggle mightily to get out of the kayak. Once I finally did, I swam the kayak maybe 40 yards to shore, emptied it out and got back in. I paddled maybe 1/4 mile back to the put in and still felt cold so went to my parents house a few miles away with my brother. Still shivering there, I put a thermometer in my mouth and found out that I was at only 94.5 degrees. It took several hours sitting over the furnace grate to warm back up to normal. I remember that temperature had me slowed down and slurring my words some when I called my girlfriend. I learnd a lot of lessons that day. I'm not as thin as I was then but I still have a lot of surface area to volume ratio and need added insulation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] I think I need to clarify what I was describing. These incidents were common instances of someone accidentally dumping while negotiating a rapid then getting safely back into a boat. In no case did any of them experience episodes of shivering. It's really a matter of missing a line in a rapid, falling in, getting to the shore at the bottom, draining the boat, getting back in and going on. In a few cases clothing was changed if the person did feel a little chilly, but even if not, no one judged it as a critical situation. These were not critical situations wherein rescue procedures became necessary. I will also mention that not a few of the 'victims' were traed in self- and group- rescue and a few were instructors. What I was inquiring about was an observation that this tiredness seems to be an aftermath of this event. It could be a purely behavioral response, for all I know. Your notion that some energy reserves were used up is a possibility, even though shivering was not involved. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Joe P. <jpylka_at_earthlink.net> wrote: > > I think I need to clarify what I was describing. These incidents were > common instances of > someone accidentally dumping while negotiating a rapid then getting safely > back into a boat. In no case did any of them experience episodes of > shivering. It's really a matter of missing a line in a rapid, falling in, > getting to the shore at the bottom, draining the boat, getting back in and > going on. > Heck I've done this a lot back in my w/w days and I don't remember going through any heavy sleeping afterwards. The water was always pretty cold but I dressed (in those days) in a waterski wetsuit with a spray jacket. Dry tops were just becoming popular and I remember wishing I could afford the price for one (or justify it). Then I got the Nimbus Telkwa, moved into sea kayaking, and pretty much stopped tipping over. :P Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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