Niels wrote: >>>>....I think that covers all objections so far. I'm hoping for more solid arguments: I was really hoping for a serious discussion on mechanics. I still MIGHT be wrong, even very wrong; but so far, I have no indication that I am.<<<<< Off the cuff, it seems to me that there IS potential energy stored by lifting the arms but I don't see any advantage to doing that since the paddle is nowhere near 100% efficient in transferring that energy into forward motion. Therefore, the more work you put into lifting the paddle the more energy you waste because of the lack of paddling efficiency gained in return for your efforts against gravity. If I'm correct about that, then other things being equal the less you work against gravity during your strokes the more efficient you should be. This is probably one of the reasons why a bent shaft canoe stroke is more efficient than a kayak paddle stroke, less energy wasted lifting the second paddle blade, hand, and arm against gravity and more of ones effort going to propelling the kayak horizontally through the water. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
MATT MARINER BROZE wrote: > Off the cuff, it seems to me that there IS potential energy stored by lifting > the arms but I don't see any advantage to doing that since the paddle is > nowhere near 100% efficient in transferring that energy into forward motion. I'm not so sure about that. The mechanics are complicated, but let's simply ask: If the energy doesn't transfer to the force and movement of the paddle-blade, then where does it go? The movement of the arms is nearly frictionless. Nothing heats up, so no energy is lost. I think almost 100% of the energy transfers to the paddleblade - but from there, I have no idea of the efficiency of a blade pushing against the water. > Therefore, the more work you put into lifting the paddle the more energy you > waste because of the lack of paddling efficiency gained in return for your > efforts against gravity. If I'm correct about that, then other things being > equal the less you work against gravity during your strokes the more efficient > you should be. It is indeed possible that a horizontal stroke is more efficient than a vertical stroke. The mechanics and physiology are too difficult to put in a simple model. The main reason I consider the vertical stroke the best, is that it's been taught by most kayak-instructors and used by most paddlers. Once they master that stroke, they're able to keep it up for hours and stay with the group, so I think there must be something good about it. > This is probably one of the reasons why a bent shaft canoe > stroke is more efficient than a kayak paddle stroke, less energy wasted > lifting the second paddle blade, hand, and arm against gravity and more of > ones effort going to propelling the kayak horizontally through the water. Efficiency is one thing; being able to keep it up is another. I tried it for myself: I can (in my home, with a paddle out of the water) longer keep up a forward-stroke motion than a static position. There might be a placebo-effect there: I _want_ to be able to keep it up longer. I don't know if moving an arm uses more energy than keeping an arm steady against a force. To a steel crane, it certainly would be, but muscles work differently. They're comparable to a car-engine working against the clutch, with the car on the handbrake. Lots of energy are generated, but none is transferred to forward motion. There might be a trade-off somewhere: If you move half of the time and rest the other half, you might be more efficient than when you keep the arm steady, constantly bearing the weight. I don't know. Perhaps I step too lightly over what the best stroke is. I could change it to: "If you teach a vertical stroke, than THIS should be your justification". Thanks for joining the discussion, Matt. I highly value your expertise. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 28/04/2011 12:12 PM, Niels Blaauw wrote: > MATT MARINER BROZE wrote: > > > Off the cuff, it seems to me that there IS potential energy stored > by lifting > > the arms but I don't see any advantage to doing that since the > paddle is > > nowhere near 100% efficient in transferring that energy into > forward motion. > I'm not so sure about that. The mechanics are complicated, but let's > simply ask: If the energy doesn't transfer to the force and movement > of the paddle-blade, then where does it go? The movement of the arms > is nearly frictionless. Nothing heats up, so no energy is lost. > I think almost 100% of the energy transfers to the paddleblade - but > from there, I have no idea of the efficiency of a blade pushing > against the water. I would disagree that "nothing heats up, so no energy is lost". Exercise does create heat in the muscles, else there would be no need for profuse sweating to cool the body down during strenuous exercise. But I suspect the amount of energy referred to is small. I doubt you could get a kayak to move forward by just using the potential energy stored by the effort of lifting the paddle up. Even on a completely calm day. In fact, I suspect this line of reasoning might be accused of counting the number of angels to dance on the head of a pin. My point of view is something like this: the muscles in your shoulders (used for lifting the paddle) are weaker than the core muscles used to power a forward stroke using rotation. Therefore, one should reduce the work done by the shoulders (and arm) muscles to as great an extent as possible, and rely instead on the core muscles to do the work of moving the boat forward. You might gain some small advantage by lifting the paddle to a slightly greater extent, but I suspect this to be of relatively short duration and the advantage would reduce as the shoulder and arm muscles tired. During a longer paddle, the gain would be so small as to be non-existent. But I am open to arguments proving me wrong. Lord knows, at my age, I can use all the advantages I can get to keep up with my younger paddling friends. -- Darryl > > > Therefore, the more work you put into lifting the paddle the more > energy you > > waste because of the lack of paddling efficiency gained in return > for your > > efforts against gravity. If I'm correct about that, then other > things being > > equal the less you work against gravity during your strokes the > more efficient > > you should be. > It is indeed possible that a horizontal stroke is more efficient than > a vertical stroke. The mechanics and physiology are too difficult to > put in a simple model. The main reason I consider the vertical stroke > the best, is that it's been taught by most kayak-instructors and used > by most paddlers. Once they master that stroke, they're able to keep > it up for hours and stay with the group, so I think there must be > something good about it. > > > This is probably one of the reasons why a bent shaft canoe > > stroke is more efficient than a kayak paddle stroke, less energy > wasted > > lifting the second paddle blade, hand, and arm against gravity and > more of > > ones effort going to propelling the kayak horizontally through the > water. > Efficiency is one thing; being able to keep it up is another. I tried > it for myself: I can (in my home, with a paddle out of the water) > longer keep up a forward-stroke motion than a static position. There > might be a placebo-effect there: I _want_ to be able to keep it up > longer. > > I don't know if moving an arm uses more energy than keeping an arm > steady against a force. To a steel crane, it certainly would be, but > muscles work differently. They're comparable to a car-engine working > against the clutch, with the car on the handbrake. Lots of energy are > generated, but none is transferred to forward motion. > There might be a trade-off somewhere: If you move half of the time and > rest the other half, you might be more efficient than when you keep > the arm steady, constantly bearing the weight. I don't know. > > Perhaps I step too lightly over what the best stroke is. I could > change it to: "If you teach a vertical stroke, than THIS should be > your justification". > > Thanks for joining the discussion, Matt. I highly value your expertise. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Darryl Johnson wrote: > I would disagree that "nothing heats up, so no energy is lost". Exercise > does create heat in the muscles, else there would be no need for profuse > sweating to cool the body down during strenuous exercise. We were specifically talking about the energy that's lost while _relaxing_ the muscles and letting the paddle drop. While your point is valid for exercise, it's not for this specific case of rest. > > But I suspect the amount of energy referred to is small. I doubt you > could get a kayak to move forward by just using the potential energy > stored by the effort of lifting the paddle up. Even on a completely calm > day. You must have missed my calculations. In my own stroke, analyzed in my own video, I put close to 30 watts into lifting the paddle, while 30 watts drive a kayak at a speed of 2 kts. There will be losses, but still: 30 watts is a significant amount of power. > My point of view is something like this: the muscles in your shoulders > (used for lifting the paddle) are weaker than the core muscles used to > power a forward stroke using rotation. Therefore, one should reduce the > work done by the shoulders (and arm) muscles to as great an extent as > possible, and rely instead on the core muscles to do the work of moving > the boat forward. I addressed this in my video. WHY use big muscles when small muscles can do the job? In almost every other activity, we learn to turn to the _smaller_ muscles that can do the job, so why not here? > > You might gain some small advantage by lifting the paddle to a slightly > greater extent, but I suspect this to be of relatively short duration > and the advantage would reduce as the shoulder and arm muscles tired. > During a longer paddle, the gain would be so small as to be non-existent. If you look at my stroke in the video, you'll notice that I have a pretty average forward stroke. (It's at 7.50 minutes, and for your convenience, here's the link once again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aB0rdn4UnQ ) I'm not promoting a new stroke; I'm not urging you to raise the paddle higher. I'm just asking: Why DO we raise the paddle that high? > > But I am open to arguments proving me wrong. Lord knows, at my age, I > can use all the advantages I can get to keep up with my younger paddling > friends. > Why not try? Paddle your boat into the dock, see if you can find the vertical rest, and see if you can put it to use. Niels *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I can accept that potential energy contributes to the stroke, but are you saying it's the prime mover? I wish I was on the water right now to give it a test. It seems even at 2kts, there has to be some more energy involved. Mark Sanders On 4/28/2011 1:34 PM, Niels Blaauw wrote: >> But I suspect the amount of energy referred to is small. I doubt you >> could get a kayak to move forward by just using the potential energy >> stored by the effort of lifting the paddle up. Even on a completely calm >> day. > > You must have missed my calculations. In my own stroke, analyzed in my > own video, I put close to 30 watts into lifting the paddle, while 30 > watts drive a kayak at a speed of 2 kts. > There will be losses, but still: 30 watts is a significant amount of > power. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Sanders wrote: > I can accept that potential energy contributes to the stroke, but are > you saying it's the prime mover? I wouldn't dare! Although I say it generates 30 watts, and 30 watts is what's required to get that speed (from some table I linked to earlier) there are losses involved that I don't account for. I think the vertical-rest-stroke might account for about 50% of the force in my own stroke - but even if it were just 25%, it would still be significant, especially since it's for free. You lift your arms anyway, so you might as well put that energy to some good use by relaxing your arms. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Sanders wrote: > I can accept that potential energy contributes to the stroke, but are > you saying it's the prime mover? I wish I was on the water right now to > give it a test. It seems even at 2kts, there has to be some more energy > involved. Something else that is easily forgotten: 30 watts is nothing when it comes out of the socket, but it's quite something when you have to produce it yourself. We're extremely spoiled with our x1000 watts washing machines, heaters, vacuumcleaners, powerdrills and cars. I hardly remember the last time I turned a screw by hand. From wikipedia (lacking a better source) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-powered_transport > In lab experiments an average "in-shape" cyclist can produce about 3 > watts/kg for more than an hour (e.g., around 200 watts for a 70 kg > rider), with top amateurs producing 5 watts/kg and elite athletes > achieving 6 watts/kg for similar lengths of time. I think kayaking is much less efficient than cycling; we can keep it up for longer than an hour. I'd be surprised if we produced over 75 watts of useful energy - which again makes 30 watts quite significant. (The number 75 is from another, even less reliable source. Never trust fundamental greenies. Still: It's a nice number to quote.) Niels *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Niels Blaauw <niels_at_nibla.nl> wrote: > > > ...I think kayaking is much less efficient than cycling;... > At least two decades ago Scientific American stated that the most efficient machine in the world was a fully loaded 747 jet airliner at 35000 feet (in terms of passenger miles versus BTUs burned). The second most efficient was a bicycle. :) I'm sure that airliners have become even more efficient with modern engines but the bicycle is probably right up there, still. Even so a kayak is very easy to propel at very slow speeds. I would imagine 10 watts would get a kayak to 1mph with no trouble (in no wind). I'd bet Matt Broze has some data on this somewhere. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net & www.bigboxbikes.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > Even so a kayak is very easy to propel at very slow speeds. I would > imagine 10 watts would get a kayak to 1mph with no trouble (in no > wind). I'd bet Matt Broze has some data on this somewhere. Intriguing! In fact interesting enough to go to my kayak upstairs and do some measurements: - If I sit down and stretch out my paddle, to where I would usually put it in the water, it's 1.20 meters front of my backrest. Supposing I end my "power" phase where it should, at my hips, I move the paddle through the water for 1.20 meters, from my own perspective. - If I put my paddle in various positions, with the blade against a scale, I hardly can push it above 5 kilograms. I'd guess my average force on the paddle is about 3, during normal touring. - A stroke on one side takes about 1 second. (A full cycle, left and right, will take twice that long. Whenever I talk about a stroke, I mean one slash on just one side.) From there, it's the most basic physics in the world: Force * distance = energy. energy/time = wattage. These are actual _definitions_: Energy is measured in Nm, which means Newtons per Meter. Wattage is defined as Nm per second. Anyway: - Distance: 1.20 meters - Force: 30 Newton (amounts to 3 kg) - Time: 1 second =================== - Output: 1.2*30*1 = 36 Watt. Let's say between 30 and 50. In a full sprint, I could perhaps raise the force to 60 Newton and do it in half a second, creating a burst of 144 watts (let's say between 100 and 200) - for about 10 strokes, perhaps. --------------- Now for the efficiency. I rechecked the 'net for drag tables: http://www.cyberiad.net/library/kayaks/skmag/skmag.htm http://www.keelhauler.org/khcc/seakayak.htm http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/kayakpro/kayakgrid.htm ...and found that they quite consistently measure 1.9 to 2.1 lbf to get a seakayak to a speed of 3 kts, which is my touring speed. That's about 1kg or 10Newton. The distance over 1 second (calculated from the 3-knot speed) is 1.5. Again: Wattage = distance*force/time = 15 watts. FIFTEEN WATTS! What's happening to my other 15!? Well: I have a much slower boat than listed in any of these tables. Efficiency might be as low as 50%, or as high as 99%. Let's hope Matt has more accurate data on paddle efficiency. Time to walk to dog. No one can say that "I should get out more". Niels *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'day, There's an interesting chapter on human power in Wilson's classic book 'Bicycling Science' that covers the human power generation and energy consumption for movements such as cycling and rowing. On the whole the two seem to be comparable despite the very different actions. On a bike 100W seems to be a reasonable cruising power and 200W a decent workout over an hour. Re the horizontal vs. vertical stroke some considerations on classic body types that fit a large proportion of older paddlers: the increased efficiency of a 'horizontal' paddle stroke if the paddler has restricted mobility and relatively high upper body strength compared to abdominal muscle strength the increased efficiency of a 'vertical' paddle stroke if the paddler is flexible with low upper body strength but strong abs. Grand discussion Niels and Matt. Thanks. I'm about to cycle home! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The most relaxed forward stroke is the Ottawa Shuffle. Lie back, all the way back on to the rear deck. Let your hand rest on your chest, where they hold the shaft of the paddle. Paddle by alternately cocking the wrist and raising the fingers of one hand, and then cock the wrist and raise the fingers of the other hand. Enjoy, but try not to doze off. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard Culpeper wrote: > The most relaxed forward stroke is the Ottawa Shuffle. > > Lie back, all the way back on to the rear deck. Let your hand rest on your > chest, where they hold the shaft of the paddle. Paddle by alternately > cocking the wrist and raising the fingers of one hand, and then cock the > wrist and raise the fingers of the other hand. Enjoy, but try not to doze > off. I've seen that stroke many times, usually performed by a girl in the front of a double rental. I never knew it had a name though. Possibly the Dutch don't dare mention it, referring to it as the "you-know-what" stroke. Myself, I've found a way of cruising with the wind, sticking my paddle under a deckline, using it as a rudder by rotating it with one hand. It allows me to put my feet on deck (toes in the water, temperature permitting) and leaves the other hand free to smoke, take pictures and play with my GPS. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I thought you're model was a good way to show that PE can propel a kayak, but I don't think it mimics true paddle mechanics of the human very well. If you're putting in 30 watts to raise your paddle, I would think only a fraction of that would find itself going to forward motion. Mark On 4/28/2011 1:34 PM, Niels Blaauw wrote: > You must have missed my calculations. In my own stroke, analyzed in my > own video, I put close to 30 watts into lifting the paddle, while 30 > watts drive a kayak at a speed of 2 kts. > There will be losses, but still: 30 watts is a significant amount of > power. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 28/04/2011 4:34 PM, Niels Blaauw wrote: > Darryl Johnson wrote: > >> I would disagree that "nothing heats up, so no energy is lost". >> Exercise >> does create heat in the muscles, else there would be no need for >> profuse >> sweating to cool the body down during strenuous exercise. > > We were specifically talking about the energy that's lost while > _relaxing_ the muscles and letting the paddle drop. While your point > is valid for exercise, it's not for this specific case of rest. >> >> But I suspect the amount of energy referred to is small. I doubt you >> could get a kayak to move forward by just using the potential energy >> stored by the effort of lifting the paddle up. Even on a completely >> calm >> day. > > You must have missed my calculations. In my own stroke, analyzed in my > own video, I put close to 30 watts into lifting the paddle, while 30 > watts drive a kayak at a speed of 2 kts. > There will be losses, but still: 30 watts is a significant amount of > power. I am not a physicist, and, yes, I did skim over your calculations, so I may have missed an important point. But from empirical observation, I can't believe that you gain enough energy to move a kayak simply by letting the weight of arms and paddle fall. In my own test -- sitting on a stool and going through the paddling motion, I'd estimate that most of the motion of the paddle blade is downward, with only a small amount going back as my shoulder joint forces the arm backward as it nears the bottom of the "fall". > >> My point of view is something like this: the muscles in your shoulders >> (used for lifting the paddle) are weaker than the core muscles used to >> power a forward stroke using rotation. Therefore, one should reduce the >> work done by the shoulders (and arm) muscles to as great an extent as >> possible, and rely instead on the core muscles to do the work of moving >> the boat forward. > > I addressed this in my video. WHY use big muscles when small muscles > can do the job? In almost every other activity, we learn to turn to > the _smaller_ muscles that can do the job, so why not here? I don't buy your argument from the video. Yes, we use small muscles to scratch our heads. They have the more delicate control needed to hit the itchy spot. But scratching doesn't require much force. If more force was needed, we'd use larger muscles. If force and endurance are needed, your fingers, or even your arms, aren't going to make the grade. If you carve a chicken or turkey for Sunday dinner, you will note there is so-called "white meat" and "dark meat". The white meat is on the breast: these are the muscles that power the wings for flying (in pre-domestication days). The dark meat is the muscles that are used for shorted spurts. Your arms are dark meat. They're fine for shorter bursts of energy, but they tire after a while. Your core muscles (not just the back muscles, by the way) are more like the white meat. They're designed for continuous use over longer periods -- like a day's paddle. >> >> You might gain some small advantage by lifting the paddle to a slightly >> greater extent, but I suspect this to be of relatively short duration >> and the advantage would reduce as the shoulder and arm muscles tired. >> During a longer paddle, the gain would be so small as to be >> non-existent. > > If you look at my stroke in the video, you'll notice that I have a > pretty average forward stroke. (It's at 7.50 minutes, and for your > convenience, here's the link once again: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aB0rdn4UnQ ) I'm not promoting a new > stroke; I'm not urging you to raise the paddle higher. I'm just > asking: Why DO we raise the paddle that high? >> >> But I am open to arguments proving me wrong. Lord knows, at my age, I >> can use all the advantages I can get to keep up with my younger >> paddling >> friends. >> > Why not try? Paddle your boat into the dock, see if you can find the > vertical rest, and see if you can put it to use. > I may certainly do that, once I get my boat back on the water. Again, as others have said, it's an interesting point of discussion. -- Darryl > Niels *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Darryl Johnson wrote: > I can't believe that you gain enough energy to move a kayak simply by > letting the weight of arms and paddle fall. I've learned not to challenge beliefs. Challenge my facts, observations and measurements with counter-facts, observations, measurement or logic, and I'm all yours. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I eat, I lift my fork countless times. How come I am just getting fat and not going anywhere? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob, what are you eating? And drinking? -- Bradford R. Crain Quoting Robert Livingston <bearboat2_at_comcast.net>: > When I eat, I lift my fork countless times. How come I am just > getting fat and not going anywhere? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Robert Livingston <bearboat2_at_comcast.net>wrote: > When I eat, I lift my fork countless times. How come I am just getting fat > and not going anywhere? > > You obviously need a heavier fork. Try putting more food on it. Craig :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:55 PDT