Threat to Texas' open beaches http://www.chron.com/news/kilday-hart/article/Hart-Open-beaches-ruling-may-sink-high-court-3482518.php *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Looks like they opened a nasty can of worms! Hope you folk find a remedy! Mark On 4/16/2012 9:52 AM, Jackie Myers wrote: > Threat to Texas' open beaches > > http://www.chron.com/news/kilday-hart/article/Hart-Open-beaches-ruling-may-sink-high-court-3482518.php *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Beaches in Washington state are privately owned. Very inconvenient for kayakers. Oregon state legislature voted years ago that the beaches are open to the public. Public waterways in Oregon are sometimes claimed by landowners, and the battle continues. Interestingly, since the beaches in Oregon are public, the state can contemplate collecting (and now does) a fee for access to coastal parks. Brad Crain On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Mark Sanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net>wrote: > Looks like they opened a nasty can of worms! Hope you folk find a remedy! > > Mark > > > On 4/16/2012 9:52 AM, Jackie Myers wrote: > >> Threat to Texas' open beaches >> >> http://www.chron.com/news/**kilday-hart/article/Hart-Open-** >> beaches-ruling-may-sink-high-**court-3482518.php<http://www.chron.com/news/kilday-hart/article/Hart-Open-beaches-ruling-may-sink-high-court-3482518.php> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Bradford Crain <drbc_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > Beaches in Washington state are privately owned. Very inconvenient for > kayakers. > Beaches are often privately owned in WA but "tidelands" may - or may not - be. Not all land below the mean high tide is private... but, of course, virtually all owners will claim that it's "theirs". Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
http://www.aallnet.org/main-menu/Publications/llj/LLJ-Archives/Vol-95/pub_llj _v95n04/2003-40.pdf is a 2004 compilation of legal references on beach access - which is the most recent such document (since 1978). May not help for this particular TX case, but perhaps of some interest..... Erik ________________________________ From: Jackie Myers <jackie_at_muddypuppies.com> To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 11:52 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Hart: Open beaches ruling may sink high court careers - Houston Chronicle Threat to Texas' open beaches http://www.chron.com/news/kilday-hart/article/Hart-Open-beaches-ruling-may-si nk-high-court-3482518.php are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bradford Crain drbc_at_pdx.edu wrote: .......Beaches in Washington state are privately owned. Very inconvenient for kayakers....... This is not entirely correct. Washington has a patchwork system. Many beaches are public to the mean high water line but others are completely private. One has to do the research. May private landowners on watefront like to give the impression that they own the beach rights when, in fact, they don't. This has causes conflicts between property owners and kayakers and in the San Juan Islands many, once public, launch sites near ferry terminals were closed off to try to stop a lot of kayakers from landing on what are actually public beaches in front of private lands. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A bunch of us spent a kayaking and camping weekend on Squaxin Island, Washington state. As we paddled past Boston Harbor, we encountered some black and scary looking water along an eddy line, and we decided to make an emergency landing on the shore, as most of us were scared shirtless. Immediately upon landing, the landowner came running down to the water's edge and demanded that we leave immediately. But we preferred to confront the lady rather than to return to the dark churning water nearby. She eventually returned to her nice safe cozy domicile while we regrouped. Brad On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:21 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > Bradford Crain drbc_at_pdx.edu wrote: > > .......Beaches in Washington state are privately owned. Very inconvenient > for > kayakers....... > > This is not entirely correct. Washington has a patchwork system. Many > beaches > are public to the mean high water line but others are completely private. > One > has to do the research. May private landowners on watefront like to give > the > impression that they own the beach rights when, in fact, they don't. This > has > causes conflicts between property owners and kayakers and in the San Juan > Islands many, once public, launch sites near ferry terminals were closed > off > to try to stop a lot of kayakers from landing on what are actually public > beaches in front of private lands. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Squaxin Island is an Indian Reservation... all of it. They are their own Nation. A far different case than private landowners on waterfront. Craig On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:39 PM, Bradford Crain <drbc_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > A bunch of us spent a kayaking and camping weekend on Squaxin Island, > Washington state. As we paddled past > Boston Harbor, we encountered some black and scary looking water along an > eddy line, and we decided to make an > emergency landing on the shore, as most of us were scared shirtless. > Immediately upon landing, the landowner came > running down to the water's edge and demanded that we leave immediately. > But we preferred to confront the lady rather than to return to the dark > churning water nearby. She eventually returned to her nice safe cozy > domicile while we regrouped. > > Brad > > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:21 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE > <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > > > Bradford Crain drbc_at_pdx.edu wrote: > > > > .......Beaches in Washington state are privately owned. Very inconvenient > > for > > kayakers....... > > > > This is not entirely correct. Washington has a patchwork system. Many > > beaches > > are public to the mean high water line but others are completely private. > > One > > has to do the research. May private landowners on watefront like to give > > the > > impression that they own the beach rights when, in fact, they don't. This > > has > > causes conflicts between property owners and kayakers and in the San Juan > > Islands many, once public, launch sites near ferry terminals were closed > > off > > to try to stop a lot of kayakers from landing on what are actually public > > beaches in front of private lands. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We camped at Squaxin Island State Park many years ago (can't anymore, as you noted). But our bumpy landing was across from Squaxin, right next to Boston Harbor (not an indian reservation). Brad On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > Squaxin Island is an Indian Reservation... all of it. They are their own > Nation. A far different case than private landowners on waterfront. > > Craig > > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:39 PM, Bradford Crain <drbc_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > >> A bunch of us spent a kayaking and camping weekend on Squaxin Island, >> Washington state. As we paddled past >> Boston Harbor, we encountered some black and scary looking water along an >> eddy line, and we decided to make an >> emergency landing on the shore, as most of us were scared shirtless. >> Immediately upon landing, the landowner came >> running down to the water's edge and demanded that we leave immediately. >> But we preferred to confront the lady rather than to return to the dark >> churning water nearby. She eventually returned to her nice safe cozy >> domicile while we regrouped. >> >> Brad >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:21 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE >> <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: >> >> > Bradford Crain drbc_at_pdx.edu wrote: >> > >> > .......Beaches in Washington state are privately owned. Very >> inconvenient >> > for >> > kayakers....... >> > >> > This is not entirely correct. Washington has a patchwork system. Many >> > beaches >> > are public to the mean high water line but others are completely >> private. >> > One >> > has to do the research. May private landowners on watefront like to give >> > the >> > impression that they own the beach rights when, in fact, they don't. >> This >> > has >> > causes conflicts between property owners and kayakers and in the San >> Juan >> > Islands many, once public, launch sites near ferry terminals were closed >> > off >> > to try to stop a lot of kayakers from landing on what are actually >> public >> > beaches in front of private lands. >> > -- Bradford R. Crain Fariborz Maseeh Department of Mathematics and Statistics Portland State University 724 SW Harrison St. / 334 Neuberger Hall Portland, Or. 97201 E-mail: crainb_at_pdx.edu Phone: 503-725-3127 Fax: 503-725-3661 Dept. Phone: 503-725-3621 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Bradford Crain <drbc_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > We camped at Squaxin Island State Park many years ago (can't anymore, as > you noted). But our bumpy > landing was across from Squaxin, right next to Boston Harbor (not an > indian reservation). > > Oops... my mistake. Didn't read it well enough, I guess. There are tons of home owners who claim that they own everything and, most especially, anything you're standing on. They can get nasty about it, too. The same attitude is displayed about trail riding. I've had cattlemen who were clearly leasing public land tell me that it's theirs and me and my bicycle need to get the he** out. The house we live in had been recently surveyed before we bought it because the two women who bought the house next door insisted that the fence was encroaching on *their* land and wanted it moved. Apparently the survey shut 'em up because they've never said a word to us about it. People get weird about "their" land. The Squaxin Island tribe don't allow anyone to land on their island but they do maintain a launch and parking area that they let anyone use. And they have a terrific museum with some very interesting archeological displays (including an ancient fishing weir). Sorry for the confusion, Brad. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Even if it was actually her private land where your group had landed, the law of the sea is "any port in a storm". Sometime in the 1980's the WA Department of Natural Rescources began publishing booklets and maps titled something like Your Public Lands that had the shorelines listed as to what their actual status was and descriptions of the boundries. I know they did the San Juan Islands and the Straits of Juan de Fuca, but I don't think they got much further than that. I suspect that some influential waterfront landowners, realizing an informed public was a serious threat to their privacy and how they treated the beach as their private property, put up such a fuss that the DNR program was suspended. After a while you couldn't even get those brochures that had already been published. I know, I tried getting them for our store, without any success. Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:39:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Hart: Open beaches ruling may sink high court careers - Houston Chronicle From: drbc_at_pdx.edu To: marinerkayaks_at_msn.com CC: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net A bunch of us spent a kayaking and camping weekend on Squaxin Island, Washington state. As we paddled past Boston Harbor, we encountered some black and scary looking water along an eddy line, and we decided to make an emergency landing on the shore, as most of us were scared shirtless. Immediately upon landing, the landowner came running down to the water's edge and demanded that we leave immediately. But we preferred to confront the lady rather than to return to the dark churning water nearby. She eventually returned to her nice safe cozy domicile while we regrouped. Brad On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:21 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com> wrote: Bradford Crain drbc_at_pdx.edu wrote: .......Beaches in Washington state are privately owned. Very inconvenient for kayakers....... This is not entirely correct. Washington has a patchwork system. Many beaches are public to the mean high water line but others are completely private. One has to do the research. May private landowners on watefront like to give the impression that they own the beach rights when, in fact, they don't. This has causes conflicts between property owners and kayakers and in the San Juan Islands many, once public, launch sites near ferry terminals were closed off to try to stop a lot of kayakers from landing on what are actually public beaches in front of private lands. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have PDF copies of the three brochures I will be putting them on my Web site in the next few weeks. San Juan Region Northern Puget Sound Southern Puget Sound Nothing near Squaxon On Apr 17, 2012, at 8:10 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE wrote: > I know they did the San Juan Islands and the Straits of Juan de > Fuca, but I don't think they got much further than that. I suspect that some > influential waterfront landowners, realizing an informed public was a serious > threat to their privacy and how they treated the beach as their private > property, put up such a fuss that the DNR program was suspended. After a while > you couldn't even get those brochures that had already been published. I know, > I tried getting them for our store, without any success. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 2:49 AM, Robert Livingston <bearboat2_at_comcast.net> wrote: > I have PDF copies of the three brochures > > I will be putting them on my Web site in the next few weeks. Much appreciated. It would be great if somebody could put together a comprehensive guide to this information. I came across this interesting article from Google about a book called "Getting to the Water's Edge" regarding public land access on Whidbey Island: http://www.whidbeyexaminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=1538&TM=47735.5 Here's an interesting excerpt: "Another issue that has yet to have its day in court is the issue of walking across private tidelands, Island County Planning Director Jeff Tate said. The issue is whether property owners can legally keep people from crossing private tidelands to reach public tidelands. According to public trust doctrine, the answer is no, Tate said." "However, the doctrine is an interpretation of state law and has yet to be challenged in court." This is also discussed here: http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/sea/sma/laws_rules/public_trust.html "The Public Trust Doctrine does not allow the public to trespass over privately owned uplands to access the tidelands. It does, however, protect public use of navigable water bodies below the ordinary high water mark." Another paper makes this argument that you can walk on private land. "ENJOYS LONG WALKS ON THE BEACH: WASHINGTONS PUBLIC TRUST DOCTRINE AND THE RIGHT OF PEDESTRIAN PASSAGE OVER PRIVATE TIDELANDS" From: http://digital.law.washington.edu/dspace-law/bitstream/handle/1773.1/280/81washlrev813.pdf (Conclusion) "Although the Supreme Court of Washington has yet to squarely address a right of public pedestrian passage over private tidelands, the Washington public trust doctrine logically encompasses such a right, at least where necessary to effectuate those water-based activities already judicially recognized as protected by the jus publicum." My thoughts: Although walking may be allowed, what's not clear is anything besides walking is allowed. Say sitting, picnicking or throwing a Frisbee? Or if you were walking from public beach to public beach over private tidelands but you could just as easily access your destination another way, say by road. Or in the case of kayakers, why shouldn't you be able to rest on a private beach on your way to your destination? Such matters would likely only be concluded by the legal process. But who is inclined to spend their time (and money) fighting for these rights? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I also think that both sides stand to lose so much if they lose a legal battle they they are intimidated to actually proceed. They prefer the limbo. Legally, you cannot do much if someone walks across your tides lands. It is not legal to assault them. You have to call the sheriff who will likely arrive too late. Of course they can illegally assault you. Livingston/Martin iPad On Apr 19, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Elias Ross <genman_at_noderunner.net> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 2:49 AM, Robert Livingston > <bearboat2_at_comcast.net> wrote: > >> I have PDF copies of the three brochures >> >> I will be putting them on my Web site in the next few weeks. > > Much appreciated. It would be great if somebody could put together a > comprehensive guide to this information. > > I came across this interesting article from Google about a book called > "Getting to the Water's Edge" regarding public land access on Whidbey > Island: http://www.whidbeyexaminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=1538&TM=47735.5 > > Here's an interesting excerpt: > > "Another issue that has yet to have its day in court is the issue of > walking across private tidelands, Island County Planning Director Jeff > Tate said. The issue is whether property owners can legally keep > people from crossing private tidelands to reach public tidelands. > According to public trust doctrine, the answer is no, Tate said." > > "However, the doctrine is an interpretation of state law and has yet > to be challenged in court." > > This is also discussed here: > http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/sea/sma/laws_rules/public_trust.html > > "The Public Trust Doctrine does not allow the public to trespass over > privately owned uplands to access the tidelands. It does, however, > protect public use of navigable water bodies below the ordinary high > water mark." > > Another paper makes this argument that you can walk on private land. > "ENJOYS LONG WALKS ON THE BEACH: WASHINGTONS PUBLIC TRUST DOCTRINE > AND THE RIGHT OF PEDESTRIAN PASSAGE OVER PRIVATE TIDELANDS" > > From: http://digital.law.washington.edu/dspace-law/bitstream/handle/1773.1/280/81washlrev813.pdf > > (Conclusion) > "Although the Supreme Court of Washington has yet to squarely address > a right of public pedestrian passage over private tidelands, the > Washington public trust doctrine logically encompasses such a right, > at least where necessary to effectuate those water-based activities > already judicially recognized as protected by the jus publicum." > > My thoughts: Although walking may be allowed, what's not clear is > anything besides walking is allowed. Say sitting, picnicking or > throwing a Frisbee? Or if you were walking from public beach to public > beach over private tidelands but you could just as easily access your > destination another way, say by road. Or in the case of kayakers, why > shouldn't you be able to rest on a private beach on your way to your > destination? > > Such matters would likely only be concluded by the legal process. But > who is inclined to spend their time (and money) fighting for these > rights? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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