So last saturday I had an ugly start to the weekend. I was headed to Norwalk Connecticut for the lighthouse to lighthouse race - my current favorite race of the season. Skippers meeting was 8:30 AM, with an estimated drive time of slightly under 3 hours. I left home at 5, driving my wife's Prius, picking up a friend at 5:30. On the roof was my Epic V12 Ultra and my paddling partner had a borrowed Epic V8 Ultra. At 6:00 we were in Framingham Mass, chugging along on the Mass Pike at about 70 MPH. I heard a slight thud, looked forward, then in the rearview mirror and saw the sterns of the boats. I hit the brakes and pulled over, with another thump as I started to pull over. The roof rack had come off the car, first the front rack , then with the wind resistance the back rack was forced backwards, and peeled off as the 'door hooks' left the door frame and went into the indent along the windows behind the door. About 75 yards back the boats and the rack were in the breakdown lane - avoiding any impact with the few other cars, or large trucks, on the road. We jogged back down the road to see what happened. The V8's damage was a 1 to 2 inch chunk out of the gelcoat in the bow - all gelcoat, the fabric wasn't even exposed. The V12 didn't fare as well. >From the damage it looks like the boats flipped in the air, so that the rack was above the boats, and the assembly ground into the pavement on top of the bow on the V12 and the end of one roof rack bar. As the boats and rack slowed down there was a small scuff to the front of the coaming, and behind the cockpit the deck line was severed, leaving a minor scuff (amazing that a deck line avoided more damage) and then the stern slapped into the guard rail. There's structural damage to the boat, in the final 2 feet of the stern. We gave up on going to the race, sniff, and drove home on back roads, never getting about 50 MPH. I've found a custom boat builder to do the repair work - his comment after looking at it - "no big deal". The V12 has no holes or handles and nothing to tie anything to outside of the cockpit. So after 12+ years of driving around with surf skis which have no way to attach a bow tie down, I'll be finding a way... $1500 damage to my wife's prius. She's not happy with me... Later on the ugly day, I took my Mako 6 out for a paddle in Essex MA. My paddling partner commented I was faster on the beat up mako 6 than I was on the V12 (prior to damaging it). Depending on the post repair feel of the V12 I may sell it and return to being an Epic paddler. For the time being I've got an Epic V10L ultra on loan. If anyone here weighs less than 165 pounds and likes a lively boat the V10L is good fun... I'm a bit big/heavy for it at 6 foot and 172 pounds. -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On September 14, 2014 3:42:08 PM EDT, Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> wrote: >So last saturday I had an ugly start to the weekend. > >I was headed to Norwalk Connecticut for the lighthouse to lighthouse >race - my current favorite race of the season. >Skippers meeting was 8:30 AM, with an estimated drive time of slightly >under 3 hours. I left home at 5, driving my wife's Prius, picking up >a >friend at 5:30. On the roof was my Epic V12 Ultra and my paddling >partner had a borrowed Epic V8 Ultra. > >At 6:00 we were in Framingham Mass, chugging along on the Mass Pike at >about 70 MPH. I heard a slight thud, looked forward, then in the >rearview mirror and saw the sterns of the boats. I hit the brakes and >pulled over, with another thump as I started to pull over. > >The roof rack had come off the car, first the front rack , then with >the >wind resistance the back rack was forced backwards, and peeled off as >the 'door hooks' left the door frame and went into the indent along the >windows behind the door. > >About 75 yards back the boats and the rack were in the breakdown lane - >avoiding any impact with the few other cars, or large trucks, on the >road. We jogged back down the road to see what happened. The V8's >damage was a 1 to 2 inch chunk out of the gelcoat in the bow - all >gelcoat, the fabric wasn't even exposed. The V12 didn't fare as well. > >From the damage it looks like the boats flipped in the air, so that the >rack was above the boats, and the assembly ground into the pavement on >top of the bow on the V12 and the end of one roof rack bar. As the >boats and rack slowed down there was a small scuff to the front of the >coaming, and behind the cockpit the deck line was severed, leaving a >minor scuff (amazing that a deck line avoided more damage) and then the >stern slapped into the guard rail. There's structural damage to the >boat, in the final 2 feet of the stern. > >We gave up on going to the race, sniff, and drove home on back roads, >never getting about 50 MPH. > >I've found a custom boat builder to do the repair work - his comment >after looking at it - "no big deal". > >The V12 has no holes or handles and nothing to tie anything to outside >of the cockpit. So after 12+ years of driving around with surf skis >which have no way to attach a bow tie down, I'll be finding a way... > >$1500 damage to my wife's prius. She's not happy with me... > >Later on the ugly day, I took my Mako 6 out for a paddle in Essex MA. >My paddling partner commented I was faster on the beat up mako 6 than I >was on the V12 (prior to damaging it). Depending on the post repair >feel of the V12 I may sell it and return to being an Epic paddler. >For >the time being I've got an Epic V10L ultra on loan. If anyone here >weighs less than 165 pounds and likes a lively boat the V10L is good >fun... I'm a bit big/heavy for it at 6 foot and 172 pounds. > >-- > Kirk Olsen >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions >expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the >author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** Too bad about the damage -- to boats and to car. But about that bow tie down: you could simply slip a loop over the bow and drop a line down from there. You'd want the loop small enough that it was neither too loose to slide backward on the boat nor have enough slack that the boat can still move around. 12+ years eh? I don't think I've ever gone out without both front and rear tie downs. -- Sent from my Note3 with K-9 Mail. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry to hear about your misfortune Kirk. I often drive short city drive without bow and stern lines, as well as short burts on the freeway. I'm going to get back in the habit of doing the bow and stern tie down, just incase. Curious what rack system you had that gave way. Mind sharing that? Here's to better days and no repeat performance. John Browning John Browning Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> </div><div>Date:09/14/2014 14:42 (GMT-06:00) </div><div>To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net </div><div>Subject: [Paddlewise] not a good morning </div><div> </div>So last saturday I had an ugly start to the weekend. I was headed to Norwalk Connecticut for the lighthouse to lighthouse race - my current favorite race of the season. Skippers meeting was 8:30 AM, with an estimated drive time of slightly under 3 hours. I left home at 5, driving my wife's Prius, picking up a friend at 5:30. On the roof was my Epic V12 Ultra and my paddling partner had a borrowed Epic V8 Ultra. At 6:00 we were in Framingham Mass, chugging along on the Mass Pike at about 70 MPH. I heard a slight thud, looked forward, then in the rearview mirror and saw the sterns of the boats. I hit the brakes and pulled over, with another thump as I started to pull over. The roof rack had come off the car, first the front rack , then with the wind resistance the back rack was forced backwards, and peeled off as the 'door hooks' left the door frame and went into the indent along the windows behind the door. About 75 yards back the boats and the rack were in the breakdown lane - avoiding any impact with the few other cars, or large trucks, on the road. We jogged back down the road to see what happened. The V8's damage was a 1 to 2 inch chunk out of the gelcoat in the bow - all gelcoat, the fabric wasn't even exposed. The V12 didn't fare as well. From the damage it looks like the boats flipped in the air, so that the rack was above the boats, and the assembly ground into the pavement on top of the bow on the V12 and the end of one roof rack bar. As the boats and rack slowed down there was a small scuff to the front of the coaming, and behind the cockpit the deck line was severed, leaving a minor scuff (amazing that a deck line avoided more damage) and then the stern slapped into the guard rail. There's structural damage to the boat, in the final 2 feet of the stern. We gave up on going to the race, sniff, and drove home on back roads, never getting about 50 MPH. I've found a custom boat builder to do the repair work - his comment after looking at it - "no big deal". The V12 has no holes or handles and nothing to tie anything to outside of the cockpit. So after 12+ years of driving around with surf skis which have no way to attach a bow tie down, I'll be finding a way... $1500 damage to my wife's prius. She's not happy with me... Later on the ugly day, I took my Mako 6 out for a paddle in Essex MA. My paddling partner commented I was faster on the beat up mako 6 than I was on the V12 (prior to damaging it). Depending on the post repair feel of the V12 I may sell it and return to being an Epic paddler. For the time being I've got an Epic V10L ultra on loan. If anyone here weighs less than 165 pounds and likes a lively boat the V10L is good fun... I'm a bit big/heavy for it at 6 foot and 172 pounds. -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We've got a 2010 Honda Insight and a 2008 Toyota Prius. The roof rack is a Thule rack with the tower feet pads for the Insight. The rack is on the Insight most of the time. BUT the Insight is only 80% the size of the Prius and the insight isn't as comfortable so for the 6 hour round trip I moved the rack to the Prius. After putting the rack on I shook the rack and it seemed secure. Someone suggested just tying a loop on the bow of the [1]v12.jpg ([2]http://www.epickayaks.com/product/product/epic-v12). It's shaped very poorly for putting on a bow line, there's no upsweep at the bow. The only place a bow line would be secure would be at the front edge of the cockpit about 9 feet back from the actual bow. Drilling a hole at the bow and fashioning a grommet line opening would work, if I had sufficient fabricating skills - but I'm not messing with the carbon/kevlar/nomex layup to do that modification.. Kirk. On Sun, Sep 14, 2014, at 05:28 PM, seakayakerjb wrote: Sorry to hear about your misfortune Kirk. I often drive short city drive without bow and stern lines, as well as short burts on the freeway. I'm going to get back in the habit of doing the bow and stern tie down, just incase. Curious what rack system you had that gave way. Mind sharing that? Here's to better days and no repeat performance. References 1. http://www.epickayaks.com/images/products/61/v12.jpg 2. http://www.epickayaks.com/product/product/epic-v12 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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I have a Yakima rack bolted to a fiberglass Leer canopy clamped to a Nissan pickup truck. The tie-down straps are nylon webbing, and the front/rear ropes are worthy of mountain climbing. I generally drive 55-65 mph on the highway, and also have comprehensive automobile insurance. Am I immune to disaster? Heck no. I even had a dream where I was driving my truck along the top of a dike and lost control. Thank goodness I woke up. Brad On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Peter Osman <peter_at_energysustained.com> wrote: > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd guess most all of us had a variation of that nightmare before. Years ago mine was watching my orange NDK Explorer flipping end over end down a busy highway in my rear view mirror - shattering into pieces as it flipped along and cars swerving in all directions to avoid 'em. Woke up screaming, "OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD!" Scared the daylights out of me and my wife! LOL Since then I have never gone without using a third tie-down strap at the front along with a stern line. Jim From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Bradford Crain Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2014 20:43 To: Peter Osman Cc: Kirk Olsen; seakayakerjb; Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] not a good morning I have a Yakima rack bolted to a fiberglass Leer canopy clamped to a Nissan pickup truck. The tie-down straps are nylon webbing, and the front/rear ropes are worthy of mountain climbing. I generally drive 55-65 mph on the highway, and also have comprehensive automobile insurance. Am I immune to disaster? Heck no. I even had a dream where I was driving my truck along the top of a dike and lost control. Thank goodness I woke up. Brad On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Peter Osman <peter_at_energysustained.com> wrote: *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Was it a failure of the rack itself, or the way the rack attaches to the car? In other words, a flaw in the rack or a weakness in the car structure? Is the Prius suitable for carrying kayaks? Jerry On Sep 14, 2014, at 12:42 PM, Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> wrote: > So last saturday I had an ugly start to the weekend. > > I was headed to Norwalk Connecticut for the lighthouse to lighthouse > race - my current favorite race of the season. > Skippers meeting was 8:30 AM, with an estimated drive time of slightly > under 3 hours. I left home at 5, driving my wife's Prius, picking up a > friend at 5:30. On the roof was my Epic V12 Ultra and my paddling > partner had a borrowed Epic V8 Ultra. > > At 6:00 we were in Framingham Mass, chugging along on the Mass Pike at > about 70 MPH. I heard a slight thud, looked forward, then in the > rearview mirror and saw the sterns of the boats. I hit the brakes and > pulled over, with another thump as I started to pull over. > > The roof rack had come off the car, first the front rack , then with the > wind resistance the back rack was forced backwards, and peeled off as > the 'door hooks' left the door frame and went into the indent along the > windows behind the door. > > About 75 yards back the boats and the rack were in the breakdown lane - > avoiding any impact with the few other cars, or large trucks, on the > road. We jogged back down the road to see what happened. The V8's > damage was a 1 to 2 inch chunk out of the gelcoat in the bow - all > gelcoat, the fabric wasn't even exposed. The V12 didn't fare as well. > From the damage it looks like the boats flipped in the air, so that the > rack was above the boats, and the assembly ground into the pavement on > top of the bow on the V12 and the end of one roof rack bar. As the > boats and rack slowed down there was a small scuff to the front of the > coaming, and behind the cockpit the deck line was severed, leaving a > minor scuff (amazing that a deck line avoided more damage) and then the > stern slapped into the guard rail. There's structural damage to the > boat, in the final 2 feet of the stern. > > We gave up on going to the race, sniff, and drove home on back roads, > never getting about 50 MPH. > > I've found a custom boat builder to do the repair work - his comment > after looking at it - "no big deal". > > The V12 has no holes or handles and nothing to tie anything to outside > of the cockpit. So after 12+ years of driving around with surf skis > which have no way to attach a bow tie down, I'll be finding a way... > > $1500 damage to my wife's prius. She's not happy with me... > > Later on the ugly day, I took my Mako 6 out for a paddle in Essex MA. > My paddling partner commented I was faster on the beat up mako 6 than I > was on the V12 (prior to damaging it). Depending on the post repair > feel of the V12 I may sell it and return to being an Epic paddler. For > the time being I've got an Epic V10L ultra on loan. If anyone here > weighs less than 165 pounds and likes a lively boat the V10L is good > fun... I'm a bit big/heavy for it at 6 foot and 172 pounds. > > -- > Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Disclaimer: I haven't checked the Prius specifically, and don't know the model Prius you have to go about doing so. I'm not suggesting you did what I'm hopefully cautioning others against here, either. I owned a Ford Fiesta for three years, and spent a lot of time researching racks for small cars. Ford simply said don't do it, and that doing so would void my warranty (as would adding a trailer hitch) Once the mfg. warranty had expired, I started seriously looking. After conversations with Yakima and Thule, I finally reached a decision that I couldn't safely carry more than one boat on the roof of a small/compact car, no matter the model, and that I'd have to be careful what boat I carried if only loading a single boat. I went through spec after spec, trying to decide on a small/fuel efficient car that could do what I wanted. That was a major issue for me, as I had wanted to get to the point where I could just toss my wife's and my kayak on the car and go rather than use the SUV I'd given my son or add a trailer hitch. Both Yakima and Thule specify racks for the Fiesta (along with most vehicles, except my wife's Toyota MR2 spyder convertible). If you dig deep enough into the info, it points out that you'll need to minimize the weight - and they don't recommend multiple saddles. I ended up with the last model year Ford made the Ranger...not a high gas mileage solution. I'd like to hear if anyone can suggest fuel efficient cars that could handle two "real" kayaks on the roof safely. Wynne Eden Americus, GA On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Gerald Foodman <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net> wrote: > Was it a failure of the rack itself, or the way the rack attaches to the > car? In other words, a flaw in the rack or a weakness in the car > structure? Is the Prius suitable for carrying kayaks? > Jerry > > On Sep 14, 2014, at 12:42 PM, Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> wrote: > > > So last saturday I had an ugly start to the weekend. > > > > I was headed to Norwalk Connecticut for the lighthouse to lighthouse > > race - my current favorite race of the season. > > Skippers meeting was 8:30 AM, with an estimated drive time of slightly > > under 3 hours. I left home at 5, driving my wife's Prius, picking up a > > friend at 5:30. On the roof was my Epic V12 Ultra and my paddling > > partner had a borrowed Epic V8 Ultra. > > > > At 6:00 we were in Framingham Mass, chugging along on the Mass Pike at > > about 70 MPH. I heard a slight thud, looked forward, then in the > > rearview mirror and saw the sterns of the boats. I hit the brakes and > > pulled over, with another thump as I started to pull over. > > > > The roof rack had come off the car, first the front rack , then with the > > wind resistance the back rack was forced backwards, and peeled off as > > the 'door hooks' left the door frame and went into the indent along the > > windows behind the door. > > > > About 75 yards back the boats and the rack were in the breakdown lane - > > avoiding any impact with the few other cars, or large trucks, on the > > road. We jogged back down the road to see what happened. The V8's > > damage was a 1 to 2 inch chunk out of the gelcoat in the bow - all > > gelcoat, the fabric wasn't even exposed. The V12 didn't fare as well. > > From the damage it looks like the boats flipped in the air, so that the > > rack was above the boats, and the assembly ground into the pavement on > > top of the bow on the V12 and the end of one roof rack bar. As the > > boats and rack slowed down there was a small scuff to the front of the > > coaming, and behind the cockpit the deck line was severed, leaving a > > minor scuff (amazing that a deck line avoided more damage) and then the > > stern slapped into the guard rail. There's structural damage to the > > boat, in the final 2 feet of the stern. > > > > We gave up on going to the race, sniff, and drove home on back roads, > > never getting about 50 MPH. > > > > I've found a custom boat builder to do the repair work - his comment > > after looking at it - "no big deal". > > > > The V12 has no holes or handles and nothing to tie anything to outside > > of the cockpit. So after 12+ years of driving around with surf skis > > which have no way to attach a bow tie down, I'll be finding a way... > > > > $1500 damage to my wife's prius. She's not happy with me... > > > > Later on the ugly day, I took my Mako 6 out for a paddle in Essex MA. > > My paddling partner commented I was faster on the beat up mako 6 than I > > was on the V12 (prior to damaging it). Depending on the post repair > > feel of the V12 I may sell it and return to being an Epic paddler. For > > the time being I've got an Epic V10L ultra on loan. If anyone here > > weighs less than 165 pounds and likes a lively boat the V10L is good > > fun... I'm a bit big/heavy for it at 6 foot and 172 pounds. > > > > -- > > Kirk Olsen > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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I am considering a 2015 VW Sportwagon TDI, which comes with roof rails. The diesel is claimed to get above 40mpg on the highway. It is similar in price to the Prius. I understand that for 2015 the diesel engine has been updated. Jerry On Sep 14, 2014, at 3:37 PM, Wynne Eden <weden003_at_gmail.com> wrote: > Disclaimer: I haven't checked the Prius specifically, and don't know the model Prius you have to go about doing so. I'm not suggesting you did what I'm hopefully cautioning others against here, either. > > I owned a Ford Fiesta for three years, and spent a lot of time researching racks for small cars. Ford simply said don't do it, and that doing so would void my warranty (as would adding a trailer hitch) > > Once the mfg. warranty had expired, I started seriously looking. > > After conversations with Yakima and Thule, I finally reached a decision that I couldn't safely carry more than one boat on the roof of a small/compact car, no matter the model, and that I'd have to be careful what boat I carried if only loading a single boat. I went through spec after spec, trying to decide on a small/fuel efficient car that could do what I wanted. > > That was a major issue for me, as I had wanted to get to the point where I could just toss my wife's and my kayak on the car and go rather than use the SUV I'd given my son or add a trailer hitch. > > Both Yakima and Thule specify racks for the Fiesta (along with most vehicles, except my wife's Toyota MR2 spyder convertible). If you dig deep enough into the info, it points out that you'll need to minimize the weight - and they don't recommend multiple saddles. > > I ended up with the last model year Ford made the Ranger...not a high gas mileage solution. I'd like to hear if anyone can suggest fuel efficient cars that could handle two "real" kayaks on the roof safely. > > Wynne Eden > Americus, GA > > > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Gerald Foodman <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net> wrote: > Was it a failure of the rack itself, or the way the rack attaches to the car? In other words, a flaw in the rack or a weakness in the car structure? Is the Prius suitable for carrying kayaks? > Jerry > > On Sep 14, 2014, at 12:42 PM, Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> wrote: > > > So last saturday I had an ugly start to the weekend. > > > > I was headed to Norwalk Connecticut for the lighthouse to lighthouse > > race - my current favorite race of the season. > > Skippers meeting was 8:30 AM, with an estimated drive time of slightly > > under 3 hours. I left home at 5, driving my wife's Prius, picking up a > > friend at 5:30. On the roof was my Epic V12 Ultra and my paddling > > partner had a borrowed Epic V8 Ultra. > > > > At 6:00 we were in Framingham Mass, chugging along on the Mass Pike at > > about 70 MPH. I heard a slight thud, looked forward, then in the > > rearview mirror and saw the sterns of the boats. I hit the brakes and > > pulled over, with another thump as I started to pull over. > > > > The roof rack had come off the car, first the front rack , then with the > > wind resistance the back rack was forced backwards, and peeled off as > > the 'door hooks' left the door frame and went into the indent along the > > windows behind the door. > > > > About 75 yards back the boats and the rack were in the breakdown lane - > > avoiding any impact with the few other cars, or large trucks, on the > > road. We jogged back down the road to see what happened. The V8's > > damage was a 1 to 2 inch chunk out of the gelcoat in the bow - all > > gelcoat, the fabric wasn't even exposed. The V12 didn't fare as well. > > From the damage it looks like the boats flipped in the air, so that the > > rack was above the boats, and the assembly ground into the pavement on > > top of the bow on the V12 and the end of one roof rack bar. As the > > boats and rack slowed down there was a small scuff to the front of the > > coaming, and behind the cockpit the deck line was severed, leaving a > > minor scuff (amazing that a deck line avoided more damage) and then the > > stern slapped into the guard rail. There's structural damage to the > > boat, in the final 2 feet of the stern. > > > > We gave up on going to the race, sniff, and drove home on back roads, > > never getting about 50 MPH. > > > > I've found a custom boat builder to do the repair work - his comment > > after looking at it - "no big deal". > > > > The V12 has no holes or handles and nothing to tie anything to outside > > of the cockpit. So after 12+ years of driving around with surf skis > > which have no way to attach a bow tie down, I'll be finding a way... > > > > $1500 damage to my wife's prius. She's not happy with me... > > > > Later on the ugly day, I took my Mako 6 out for a paddle in Essex MA. > > My paddling partner commented I was faster on the beat up mako 6 than I > > was on the V12 (prior to damaging it). Depending on the post repair > > feel of the V12 I may sell it and return to being an Epic paddler. For > > the time being I've got an Epic V10L ultra on loan. If anyone here > > weighs less than 165 pounds and likes a lively boat the V10L is good > > fun... I'm a bit big/heavy for it at 6 foot and 172 pounds. > > > > -- > > Kirk Olsen > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Be cautious on the VW TDI. I had a friend buy a Jetta TDI sedan this past spring. After 2 bouts of the fuel pump disintegrating and sending junk into the engine, which killed the engine he got VW to take it back and got a non-diesel. If VW hasn't updated the fuel pump I would be hesitant to go that route. On Sun, Sep 14, 2014, at 07:06 PM, Gerald Foodman wrote: > I am considering a 2015 VW Sportwagon TDI, which comes with roof rails. > The diesel is claimed to get above 40mpg on the highway. It is similar > in price to the Prius. I understand that for 2015 the diesel engine has > been updated. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I carry kayaks and surfski on my '07 Ford Focus on Yakima Landing Pads screwed into my roof. I've always figured it was not the weight, but the upward push of the wind that is the main concern. So I do use a bow tie down with a loop around the bow of my ski with a bit of bungee cord to keep it from moving around. I figure it counter acts some of the upward wind force. Occasionally I'll skip the bow tie down and drive to the beach hoping my roof doesn't start peeling off from the car! Mark Sanders www.sandmarks.net Wynne Eden wrote: > Disclaimer: I haven't checked the Prius specifically, and don't know > the model Prius you have to go about doing so. I'm not suggesting you > did what I'm hopefully cautioning others against here, either. > > I owned a Ford Fiesta for three years, and spent a lot of time > researching racks for small cars. Ford simply said don't do it, and > that doing so would void my warranty (as would adding a trailer hitch) > > Once the mfg. warranty had expired, I started seriously looking. > > After conversations with Yakima and Thule, I finally reached a > decision that I couldn't safely carry more than one boat on the roof > of a small/compact car, no matter the model, and that I'd have to be > careful what boat I carried if only loading a single boat. I went > through spec after spec, trying to decide on a small/fuel efficient > car that could do what I wanted. > > That was a major issue for me, as I had wanted to get to the point > where I could just toss my wife's and my kayak on the car and go > rather than use the SUV I'd given my son or add a trailer hitch. > > > > Wynne Eden > Americus, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I must have done something wrong putting the rack on, and I don't know what, I've had no issues or concerns with prior usage. Given the manual shake test I don't understand how the front rack came off. My boats are all sub 35 pounds. I haven't been concerned with the weight on the roof structure. The long hulls that I have are awkward and I always travel with a red warning flag hung off the stern - there's about 6 foot overhand with my Insight. I've been meaning to measure the Prius roof line and see if it tapers or is hour glass shaped, with the wider portion at the front of the door - I don't know yet, I haven't had time to measure. For those rare times when I'm doing a shuttle I use our toyota sienna with factory racks and an add on thule rack with 72" bars. That setup carries 3 kaysks/surf skis or 2 canoes comfortable. On Sun, Sep 14, 2014, at 05:48 PM, Gerald Foodman wrote: > Was it a failure of the rack itself, or the way the rack attaches to the > car? In other words, a flaw in the rack or a weakness in the car > structure? Is the Prius suitable for carrying kayaks? > Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'day Kirk, Sorry to hear of your troubles. I use one of the larger Toyota Corolla sedans with Thule bars and Rola self-aligning cradles (the design of my Thule cradles had a few weak points). It will take two large sea kayaks. For the front tie down I use a sawn off tow bar bolt with a DRing, For the rear I tie down to an unused tow bar. Fuel consumption is 6 to 7L/100km on the open road with one kayak, which is OK but not brilliant. If I find myself in strong cross winds I drive slowly and pull of the road regularly to check everything.. Would it be worth asking for tie off points, loops or DRing to be glassed in to the bow and stern while you're getting your boats repaired. A local boat repairer did a very neat job for me making a steel reinforced fibreglass and gelcoat coated ring for security purposes on my Fenn GT ski. All the best, PeterO Kirk wrote: Someone suggested just tying a loop on the bow of the v12.jpg (http://www.epickayaks.com/product/product/epic-v12). It's shaped very poorly for putting on a bow line, there's no upsweep at the bow. The only place a bow line would be secure would be at the front edge of the cockpit about 9 feet back from the actual bow. Drilling a hole at the bow and fashioning a grommet line opening would work, if I had sufficient fabricating skills - but I'm not messing with the carbon/kevlar/nomex layup to do that modification.. Kirk. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Several years ago, Dan Millsip, of West Coast Paddler lost two boats when the factory installed roof rack tracks ripped out of the roof of his minivan, at speed, outside of Vancouver, BC. Some damage to boats, no injuries or damage to other vehicles or people despite traffic. The culprit? No bow or stern ties. He reported this on WCP. Thereupon ensued a raging debate about the need for bow and stern ties, with about the same content as this discussion. Likewise, I was a passenger eying my buddies' surfboards popsicle sticking through the air after they left the roof of a sedan barreling down Hwy 101, near San Diego, circa 1960. No injuries to other vehicles or people, just rail dings and a skegectomy. They went surfing anyway. List serve filters prevent me from using the pungent language this idiocy deserves: get the bow and stern anchored with freaking ties, gol darn it! Good fortune seems rampant in these descriptions, inasmuch no one has reported injuries to people in following vehicles. Or, maybe ... paddlers whose flying boats decapitated someone, or punched a hole in someone's chest are too shy to speak up ... on the sage advice of their attorneys, of course. ;) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR*************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ten years ago, I was carrying my Chesapeake Light Craft kit-built North Bay Greenland-style kayak, heading home from work in my Audi A4 Avant (wagon), equipped with factory-installed roof rails and Thule, store-bought crossbars. (CLC boats are tough, and this particular kayak made of three millimeter okume plywood, when brand newly built, dropped ten feet from my garage ceiling to the concrete floor; damage was some paint compression and fiberglass loss on the boat and a fairly deep, two inch gouge in the concrete – so this was a pretty tough boat, and was designed with a very pointy bow and stern. Virtually weapons grade! When the Ford F350 crashed into me at a stoplight, the seven millimeter nylon prusik line accessory cord being used as a bow tie down (fastened to a transport/towing hook in the bumper) melted with the impact, but held long enough so that the North Bay did not initially come loose and travel back through the windscreen of the Ford and through the idiot-driver’s forehead. The A4 was toast, having been turned into an A3 hatchback, the driver’s seat was broken off the floor rails, and the impact precipitated an avalanche of plague in my left coronary artery that almost killed me. But the North Bay is still as pretty as it ever was, and the F350 driver’s life was saved by virtue of bow and stern tie downs. Other than that, no real reason to use tie downs – fastened to structure and not to the rear windscreen wiper that I saw last weekend – except to save lives and kayaks and Prius roofs. Joq Martin From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Dave Kruger Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 11:02 AM To: Paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Several years ago, Dan Millsip, of West Coast Paddler lost two boats when the factory installed roof rack tracks ripped out of the roof of his minivan, at speed, outside of Vancouver, BC. Some damage to boats, no injuries or damage to other vehicles or people despite traffic. The culprit? No bow or stern ties. He reported this on WCP. Thereupon ensued a raging debate about the need for bow and stern ties, with about the same content as this discussion. Likewise, I was a passenger eying my buddies' surfboards popsicle sticking through the air after they left the roof of a sedan barreling down Hwy 101, near San Diego, circa 1960. No injuries to other vehicles or people, just rail dings and a skegectomy. They went surfing anyway. List serve filters prevent me from using the pungent language this idiocy deserves: get the bow and stern anchored with freaking ties, gol darn it! Good fortune seems rampant in these descriptions, inasmuch no one has reported injuries to people in following vehicles. Or, maybe ... paddlers whose flying boats decapitated someone, or punched a hole in someone's chest are too shy to speak up ... on the sage advice of their attorneys, of course. ;) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You gotta be kidding me! To the rear windshield wiper?!? From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Jack Martin Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:31 To: 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Ten years ago, I was carrying my Chesapeake Light Craft kit-built North Bay Greenland-style kayak, heading home from work in my Audi A4 Avant (wagon), equipped with factory-installed roof rails and Thule, store-bought crossbars. (CLC boats are tough, and this particular kayak made of three millimeter okume plywood, when brand newly built, dropped ten feet from my garage ceiling to the concrete floor; damage was some paint compression and fiberglass loss on the boat and a fairly deep, two inch gouge in the concrete – so this was a pretty tough boat, and was designed with a very pointy bow and stern. Virtually weapons grade! When the Ford F350 crashed into me at a stoplight, the seven millimeter nylon prusik line accessory cord being used as a bow tie down (fastened to a transport/towing hook in the bumper) melted with the impact, but held long enough so that the North Bay did not initially come loose and travel back through the windscreen of the Ford and through the idiot-driver’s forehead. The A4 was toast, having been turned into an A3 hatchback, the driver’s seat was broken off the floor rails, and the impact precipitated an avalanche of plague in my left coronary artery that almost killed me. But the North Bay is still as pretty as it ever was, and the F350 driver’s life was saved by virtue of bow and stern tie downs. Other than that, no real reason to use tie downs – fastened to structure and not to the rear windscreen wiper that I saw last weekend – except to save lives and kayaks and Prius roofs. Joq Martin From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Dave Kruger Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 11:02 AM To: Paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Several years ago, Dan Millsip, of West Coast Paddler lost two boats when the factory installed roof rack tracks ripped out of the roof of his minivan, at speed, outside of Vancouver, BC. Some damage to boats, no injuries or damage to other vehicles or people despite traffic. The culprit? No bow or stern ties. He reported this on WCP. Thereupon ensued a raging debate about the need for bow and stern ties, with about the same content as this discussion. Likewise, I was a passenger eying my buddies' surfboards popsicle sticking through the air after they left the roof of a sedan barreling down Hwy 101, near San Diego, circa 1960. No injuries to other vehicles or people, just rail dings and a skegectomy. They went surfing anyway. List serve filters prevent me from using the pungent language this idiocy deserves: get the bow and stern anchored with freaking ties, gol darn it! Good fortune seems rampant in these descriptions, inasmuch no one has reported injuries to people in following vehicles. Or, maybe ... paddlers whose flying boats decapitated someone, or punched a hole in someone's chest are too shy to speak up ... on the sage advice of their attorneys, of course. ;) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR _____ <http://www.avast.com/> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/> protection is active. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, no, not to the blade, exactly. He had it tied to the shaft that comes out of the motor that’s attached to the glass! Much more secure that way! Yup, just like the people travelling the Washington Beltway with the two mattresses on the roof held down with Ikea filament twine. (Saw that last night, but it’s par for the course around here.) Joq From: Jim Tynan [mailto:kayakbound_at_yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 12:08 PM To: 'Jack Martin'; 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning You gotta be kidding me! To the rear windshield wiper?!? From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Jack Martin Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:31 To: 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Ten years ago, I was carrying my Chesapeake Light Craft kit-built North Bay Greenland-style kayak, heading home from work in my Audi A4 Avant (wagon), equipped with factory-installed roof rails and Thule, store-bought crossbars. (CLC boats are tough, and this particular kayak made of three millimeter okume plywood, when brand newly built, dropped ten feet from my garage ceiling to the concrete floor; damage was some paint compression and fiberglass loss on the boat and a fairly deep, two inch gouge in the concrete – so this was a pretty tough boat, and was designed with a very pointy bow and stern. Virtually weapons grade! When the Ford F350 crashed into me at a stoplight, the seven millimeter nylon prusik line accessory cord being used as a bow tie down (fastened to a transport/towing hook in the bumper) melted with the impact, but held long enough so that the North Bay did not initially come loose and travel back through the windscreen of the Ford and through the idiot-driver’s forehead. The A4 was toast, having been turned into an A3 hatchback, the driver’s seat was broken off the floor rails, and the impact precipitated an avalanche of plague in my left coronary artery that almost killed me. But the North Bay is still as pretty as it ever was, and the F350 driver’s life was saved by virtue of bow and stern tie downs. Other than that, no real reason to use tie downs – fastened to structure and not to the rear windscreen wiper that I saw last weekend – except to save lives and kayaks and Prius roofs. Joq Martin From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Dave Kruger Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 11:02 AM To: Paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Several years ago, Dan Millsip, of West Coast Paddler lost two boats when the factory installed roof rack tracks ripped out of the roof of his minivan, at speed, outside of Vancouver, BC. Some damage to boats, no injuries or damage to other vehicles or people despite traffic. The culprit? No bow or stern ties. He reported this on WCP. Thereupon ensued a raging debate about the need for bow and stern ties, with about the same content as this discussion. Likewise, I was a passenger eying my buddies' surfboards popsicle sticking through the air after they left the roof of a sedan barreling down Hwy 101, near San Diego, circa 1960. No injuries to other vehicles or people, just rail dings and a skegectomy. They went surfing anyway. List serve filters prevent me from using the pungent language this idiocy deserves: get the bow and stern anchored with freaking ties, gol darn it! Good fortune seems rampant in these descriptions, inasmuch no one has reported injuries to people in following vehicles. Or, maybe ... paddlers whose flying boats decapitated someone, or punched a hole in someone's chest are too shy to speak up ... on the sage advice of their attorneys, of course. ;) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR _____ <http://www.avast.com/> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/> protection is active. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am glad no one got hurt. It seems on the face of it that there were generally adequate precautions and something probably broke, but as others have said a front tiedown would have helped greatly. Once over 50/80 mph/kph I have to say that IMHO nothing as long as a boat should be carried without that line. I limit myself to 60 kph around the neighbourhood with top lines only on a canoe. Like Dave says below - just do it.
Safe driving and paddling to all.
GaryJ
Several years ago, Dan Millsip, of West Coast Paddler lost two boats when the factory installed roof rack tracks ripped out of the roof of his minivan, at speed, outside of Vancouver, BC. Some damage to boats, no injuries or damage to other vehicles or people despite traffic. The culprit? No bow or stern ties. He reported this on WCP. Thereupon ensued a raging debate about the need for bow and stern ties, with about the same content as this discussion.
List serve filters prevent me from using the pungent language this idiocy deserves: get the bow and stern anchored with freaking ties, gol darn it!
Good fortune seems rampant in these descriptions, inasmuch no one has reported injuries to people in following vehicles. Or, maybe ... paddlers whose flying boats decapitated someone, or punched a hole in someone's chest are too shy to speak up ... on the sage advice of their attorneys, of course. ;)
--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, ORNo virus found in this message.
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No virus found in this message.
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Story from a long time ago. Kayak on roof with open cockpit and no bulkheads. Parked with the front of the car facing slightly downhill. It rained hard the previous night. Untied the ties. All the accumulated water in the bow of the kayak, flipped it down on the hood and it slid to the ground. It was a double and HEAVY with the water. The dent stayed there for the next 6 years that I owned that car. On Sep 17, 2014, at 6:27 AM, Gary J. MacDonald <garyj_at_teksavvy.com> wrote: > Usually this just dents the hood because the line at the back (you do use one, or better a pair to the sides) pulls it up short). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know where it is now, but there used to be an online photo of a skin frame kayak that someone had on the car roof, they managed to park under a gutter outflow. The bow of the kayak was touching the hood and the stern was touching the trunk. On Wed, Sep 17, 2014, at 01:04 PM, Robert Livingston wrote: > Story from a long time ago. > > Kayak on roof with open cockpit and no bulkheads. > > Parked with the front of the car facing slightly downhill. > > It rained hard the previous night. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Link to discussion, photos of Dan Millsip's roof rack fiasco, off West Coast Paddler. http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=827&hilit=bow+and+stern+ties -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR*************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As long as they had an arm out the window to make sure it didn't blow off! Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Jack Martin <jcmartin43_at_gmail.com> </div><div>Date:09/15/2014 9:48 AM (GMT-08:00) </div><div>To: 'Jim Tynan' <kayakbound_at_yahoo.com>, 'Dave Kruger' <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>, 'Paddlewise' <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> </div><div>Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning </div><div> </div>Well, no, not to the blade, exactly. He had it tied to the shaft that comes out of the motor that’s attached to the glass! Much more secure that way! Yup, just like the people travelling the Washington Beltway with the two mattresses on the roof held down with Ikea filament twine. (Saw that last night, but it’s par for the course around here.) Joq From: Jim Tynan [mailto:kayakbound_at_yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 12:08 PM To: 'Jack Martin'; 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning You gotta be kidding me! To the rear windshield wiper?!? From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Jack Martin Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:31 To: 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Ten years ago, I was carrying my Chesapeake Light Craft kit-built North Bay Greenland-style kayak, heading home from work in my Audi A4 Avant (wagon), equipped with factory-installed roof rails and Thule, store-bought crossbars. (CLC boats are tough, and this particular kayak made of three millimeter okume plywood, when brand newly built, dropped ten feet from my garage ceiling to the concrete floor; damage was some paint compression and fiberglass loss on the boat and a fairly deep, two inch gouge in the concrete – so this was a pretty tough boat, and was designed with a very pointy bow and stern. Virtually weapons grade! When the Ford F350 crashed into me at a stoplight, the seven millimeter nylon prusik line accessory cord being used as a bow tie down (fastened to a transport/towing hook in the bumper) melted with the impact, but held long enough so that the North Bay did not initially come loose and travel back through the windscreen of the Ford and through the idiot-driver’s forehead. The A4 was toast, having been turned into an A3 hatchback, the driver’s seat was broken off the floor rails, and the impact precipitated an avalanche of plague in my left coronary artery that almost killed me. But the North Bay is still as pretty as it ever was, and the F350 driver’s life was saved by virtue of bow and stern tie downs. Other than that, no real reason to use tie downs – fastened to structure and not to the rear windscreen wiper that I saw last weekend – except to save lives and kayaks and Prius roofs. Joq Martin From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Dave Kruger Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 11:02 AM To: Paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Several years ago, Dan Millsip, of West Coast Paddler lost two boats when the factory installed roof rack tracks ripped out of the roof of his minivan, at speed, outside of Vancouver, BC. Some damage to boats, no injuries or damage to other vehicles or people despite traffic. The culprit? No bow or stern ties. He reported this on WCP. Thereupon ensued a raging debate about the need for bow and stern ties, with about the same content as this discussion. Likewise, I was a passenger eying my buddies' surfboards popsicle sticking through the air after they left the roof of a sedan barreling down Hwy 101, near San Diego, circa 1960. No injuries to other vehicles or people, just rail dings and a skegectomy. They went surfing anyway. List serve filters prevent me from using the pungent language this idiocy deserves: get the bow and stern anchored with freaking ties, gol darn it! Good fortune seems rampant in these descriptions, inasmuch no one has reported injuries to people in following vehicles. Or, maybe ... paddlers whose flying boats decapitated someone, or punched a hole in someone's chest are too shy to speak up ... on the sage advice of their attorneys, of course. ;) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I carry kayaks up to a 21 ft. double and a 21 ft. surfski, a Zeplin. I usually carry it on our Prius. I was concerned by the short span between bars with the typical rack system so I went with Yakima's roof track system. I can put up the bars in 1 minute and it looks very secure. The track was mounted with numerous screws on each side and gives a significantly longer span between bars. I use a loop of 1" tubular webbing tied with a bulky knot that I close the hood over with the knot behind the latch, which is surrounded by the loop. This is what I tie the bow line off to, very secure and I don't have to slide under the car to attach it. I often use a loop of heavy bungee encased in 1" tubular webbing up to, but not including the knot. I stretch this over the up-side-down hull and over the end of the bar. On the Zeplin, I hook the hood of the boat over the bar, strap the front securely, use the bungee over the back bar, and use the tie down off the hood loop for the bow line. The boat doesn't move around at highway speeds passing semi's with the gusts off the truck. I also use a friction knot on the bow line; I prefer the Blake's Hitch. On my kayaks, I usually use my bungees front and back and usually don't bother with a bow line for boats 14 ft. and under. Kayaks often catch less air up-side-down, especially my highly rockered ones. On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:34 AM, marksanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net> wrote: > As long as they had an arm out the window to make sure it didn't blow off! > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jack Martin > Date:09/15/2014 9:48 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: 'Jim Tynan' , 'Dave Kruger' , 'Paddlewise' > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > Well, no, not to the blade, exactly. He had it tied to the shaft that > comes out of the motor that’s attached to the glass! Much more secure > that way! > > > > Yup, just like the people travelling the Washington Beltway with the two > mattresses on the roof held down with Ikea filament twine. (Saw that last > night, but it’s par for the course around here.) > > > > Joq > > > > *From:* Jim Tynan [mailto:kayakbound_at_yahoo.com] > *Sent:* Monday, September 15, 2014 12:08 PM > *To:* 'Jack Martin'; 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' > *Subject:* RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > > > You gotta be kidding me! To the rear windshield wiper?!? > > > > *From:* owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [ > mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net <owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>] *On > Behalf Of *Jack Martin > *Sent:* Monday, September 15, 2014 10:31 > *To:* 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' > *Subject:* RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > > > Ten years ago, I was carrying my Chesapeake Light Craft kit-built North > Bay Greenland-style kayak, heading home from work in my Audi A4 Avant > (wagon), equipped with factory-installed roof rails and Thule, store-bought > crossbars. (CLC boats are tough, and this particular kayak made of three > millimeter okume plywood, when brand newly built, dropped ten feet from my > garage ceiling to the concrete floor; damage was some paint compression and > fiberglass loss on the boat and a fairly deep, two inch gouge in the > concrete – so this was a pretty tough boat, and was designed with a very > pointy bow and stern. Virtually weapons grade! When the Ford F350 crashed > into me at a stoplight, the seven millimeter nylon prusik line accessory > cord being used as a bow tie down (fastened to a transport/towing hook in > the bumper) melted with the impact, but held long enough so that the North > Bay did not initially come loose and travel back through the windscreen of > the Ford and through the idiot-driver’s forehead. The A4 was toast, having > been turned into an A3 hatchback, the driver’s seat was broken off the > floor rails, and the impact precipitated an avalanche of plague in my left > coronary artery that almost killed me. But the North Bay is still as > pretty as it ever was, and the F350 driver’s life was saved by virtue of > bow and stern tie downs. > > > > Other than that, no real reason to use tie downs – fastened to structure > and not to the rear windscreen wiper that I saw last weekend – except to > save lives and kayaks and Prius roofs. > > > > Joq Martin > > > > *From:* owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [ > mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net <owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>] *On > Behalf Of *Dave Kruger > *Sent:* Monday, September 15, 2014 11:02 AM > *To:* Paddlewise > *Subject:* RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > > > Several years ago, Dan Millsip, of West Coast Paddler lost two boats when > the factory installed roof rack tracks ripped out of the roof of his > minivan, at speed, outside of Vancouver, BC. Some damage to boats, no > injuries or damage to other vehicles or people despite traffic. The > culprit? No bow or stern ties. He reported this on WCP. Thereupon ensued > a raging debate about the need for bow and stern ties, with about the same > content as this discussion. > > > > Likewise, I was a passenger eying my buddies' surfboards popsicle sticking > through the air after they left the roof of a sedan barreling down Hwy 101, > near San Diego, circa 1960. No injuries to other vehicles or people, just > rail dings and a skegectomy. They went surfing anyway. > > > > List serve filters prevent me from using the pungent language this idiocy > deserves: get the bow and stern anchored with freaking ties, gol darn it! > > > > Good fortune seems rampant in these descriptions, inasmuch no one has > reported injuries to people in following vehicles. Or, maybe ... paddlers > whose flying boats decapitated someone, or punched a hole in someone's > chest are too shy to speak up ... on the sage advice of their attorneys, of > course. ;) > > > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > > > ------------------------------ > > <http://www.avast.com/> > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > <http://www.avast.com/> protection is active. > > > > > ------------------------------ > <http://www.avast.com/> > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > <http://www.avast.com/> protection is active. > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It’s been a long time since I was a regular Paddlewiser, so I may not be getting my responses transmitted beyond the gents on this distro, but, for what it’s worth, I’d suggest that a bow tie down has a purpose greater than to keep the kayak secure on the rack during highway driving. If my earlier post gets transmitted, my experience with the F350 turning my Audi A4 Avant into an A3 hatchback is a case in point. My seven millimeter nylon bow tie down line was shocked so hard that about six inches of it melted with the sudden strain. But it did hold long enough to keep my CLC North Bay from staying where it had been in the air and going through the windshield and the forehead of the idiot driving the oncoming truck. So, for what it’s worth, I don’t rig a tie down line just to keep my kayak secure on the drive. A knot under the hood is common practice, but that wouldn’t have held my kayak from going into the truck when the Thule crossbars failed. (Thule was not interested in seeing the leftovers because what I described couldn’t have happened, and Audi said that the driver’s seat that came off its rails was incapable of doing that, and they all passed on seeing the corpse of my beautiful silver Avant.) So I guess it’s about what a tie down line is supposed to protect us from: failure of a rack component, or too-fast F350s. I know where my bet is. Joq Martin From: Bill O'Brien [mailto:obrien.murphy_at_gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 6:07 PM To: marksanders Cc: Jack Martin; Jim Tynan; Dave Kruger; Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] not a good morning I carry kayaks up to a 21 ft. double and a 21 ft. surfski, a Zeplin. I usually carry it on our Prius. I was concerned by the short span between bars with the typical rack system so I went with Yakima's roof track system. I can put up the bars in 1 minute and it looks very secure. The track was mounted with numerous screws on each side and gives a significantly longer span between bars. I use a loop of 1" tubular webbing tied with a bulky knot that I close the hood over with the knot behind the latch, which is surrounded by the loop. This is what I tie the bow line off to, very secure and I don't have to slide under the car to attach it. I often use a loop of heavy bungee encased in 1" tubular webbing up to, but not including the knot. I stretch this over the up-side-down hull and over the end of the bar. On the Zeplin, I hook the hood of the boat over the bar, strap the front securely, use the bungee over the back bar, and use the tie down off the hood loop for the bow line. The boat doesn't move around at highway speeds passing semi's with the gusts off the truck. I also use a friction knot on the bow line; I prefer the Blake's Hitch. On my kayaks, I usually use my bungees front and back and usually don't bother with a bow line for boats 14 ft. and under. Kayaks often catch less air up-side-down, especially my highly rockered ones. On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:34 AM, marksanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net> wrote: As long as they had an arm out the window to make sure it didn't blow off! Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jack Martin Date:09/15/2014 9:48 AM (GMT-08:00) To: 'Jim Tynan' , 'Dave Kruger' , 'Paddlewise' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Well, no, not to the blade, exactly. He had it tied to the shaft that comes out of the motor that’s attached to the glass! Much more secure that way! Yup, just like the people travelling the Washington Beltway with the two mattresses on the roof held down with Ikea filament twine. (Saw that last night, but it’s par for the course around here.) Joq From: Jim Tynan [mailto:kayakbound_at_yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 12:08 PM To: 'Jack Martin'; 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning You gotta be kidding me! To the rear windshield wiper?!? From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Jack Martin Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:31 To: 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Ten years ago, I was carrying my Chesapeake Light Craft kit-built North Bay Greenland-style kayak, heading home from work in my Audi A4 Avant (wagon), equipped with factory-installed roof rails and Thule, store-bought crossbars. (CLC boats are tough, and this particular kayak made of three millimeter okume plywood, when brand newly built, dropped ten feet from my garage ceiling to the concrete floor; damage was some paint compression and fiberglass loss on the boat and a fairly deep, two inch gouge in the concrete – so this was a pretty tough boat, and was designed with a very pointy bow and stern. Virtually weapons grade! When the Ford F350 crashed into me at a stoplight, the seven millimeter nylon prusik line accessory cord being used as a bow tie down (fastened to a transport/towing hook in the bumper) melted with the impact, but held long enough so that the North Bay did not initially come loose and travel back through the windscreen of the Ford and through the idiot-driver’s forehead. The A4 was toast, having been turned into an A3 hatchback, the driver’s seat was broken off the floor rails, and the impact precipitated an avalanche of plague in my left coronary artery that almost killed me. But the North Bay is still as pretty as it ever was, and the F350 driver’s life was saved by virtue of bow and stern tie downs. Other than that, no real reason to use tie downs – fastened to structure and not to the rear windscreen wiper that I saw last weekend – except to save lives and kayaks and Prius roofs. Joq Martin From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Dave Kruger Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 11:02 AM To: Paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Several years ago, Dan Millsip, of West Coast Paddler lost two boats when the factory installed roof rack tracks ripped out of the roof of his minivan, at speed, outside of Vancouver, BC. Some damage to boats, no injuries or damage to other vehicles or people despite traffic. The culprit? No bow or stern ties. He reported this on WCP. Thereupon ensued a raging debate about the need for bow and stern ties, with about the same content as this discussion. Likewise, I was a passenger eying my buddies' surfboards popsicle sticking through the air after they left the roof of a sedan barreling down Hwy 101, near San Diego, circa 1960. No injuries to other vehicles or people, just rail dings and a skegectomy. They went surfing anyway. List serve filters prevent me from using the pungent language this idiocy deserves: get the bow and stern anchored with freaking ties, gol darn it! Good fortune seems rampant in these descriptions, inasmuch no one has reported injuries to people in following vehicles. Or, maybe ... paddlers whose flying boats decapitated someone, or punched a hole in someone's chest are too shy to speak up ... on the sage advice of their attorneys, of course. ;) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR _____ <http://www.avast.com/> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/> protection is active. _____ <http://www.avast.com/> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/> protection is active. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is why we should all have waterfront property... Sent from my iPad > On Sep 15, 2014, at 7:02 PM, "Jack Martin" <jcmartin43_at_gmail.com> wrote: > > It’s been a long time since I was a regular Paddlewiser, so I may not be getting my responses transmitted beyond the gents on this distro, but, for what it’s worth, I’d suggest that a bow tie down has a purpose greater than to keep the kayak secure on the rack during highway driving. If my earlier post gets transmitted, my experience with the F350 turning my Audi A4 Avant into an A3 hatchback is a case in point. My seven millimeter nylon bow tie down line was shocked so hard that about six inches of it melted with the sudden strain. But it did hold long enough to keep my CLC North Bay from staying where it had been in the air and going through the windshield and the forehead of the idiot driving the oncoming truck. So, for what it’s worth, I don’t rig a tie down line just to keep my kayak secure on the drive. A knot under the hood is common practice, but that wouldn’t have held my kayak from going into the truck when the Thule crossbars failed. (Thule was not interested in seeing the leftovers because what I described couldn’t have happened, and Audi said that the driver’s seat that came off its rails was incapable of doing that, and they all passed on seeing the corpse of my beautiful silver Avant.) > > So I guess it’s about what a tie down line is supposed to protect us from: failure of a rack component, or too-fast F350s. I know where my bet is. > > Joq Martin > > From: Bill O'Brien [mailto:obrien.murphy_at_gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 6:07 PM > To: marksanders > Cc: Jack Martin; Jim Tynan; Dave Kruger; Paddlewise > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > I carry kayaks up to a 21 ft. double and a 21 ft. surfski, a Zeplin. I usually carry it on our Prius. I was concerned by the short span between bars with the typical rack system so I went with Yakima's roof track system. I can put up the bars in 1 minute and it looks very secure. The track was mounted with numerous screws on each side and gives a significantly longer span between bars. I use a loop of 1" tubular webbing tied with a bulky knot that I close the hood over with the knot behind the latch, which is surrounded by the loop. This is what I tie the bow line off to, very secure and I don't have to slide under the car to attach it. > > I often use a loop of heavy bungee encased in 1" tubular webbing up to, but not including the knot. I stretch this over the up-side-down hull and over the end of the bar. On the Zeplin, I hook the hood of the boat over the bar, strap the front securely, use the bungee over the back bar, and use the tie down off the hood loop for the bow line. The boat doesn't move around at highway speeds passing semi's with the gusts off the truck. I also use a friction knot on the bow line; I prefer the Blake's Hitch. On my kayaks, I usually use my bungees front and back and usually don't bother with a bow line for boats 14 ft. and under. Kayaks often catch less air up-side-down, especially my highly rockered ones. > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:34 AM, marksanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net> wrote: > As long as they had an arm out the window to make sure it didn't blow off! > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jack Martin > Date:09/15/2014 9:48 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: 'Jim Tynan' , 'Dave Kruger' , 'Paddlewise' > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > Well, no, not to the blade, exactly. He had it tied to the shaft that comes out of the motor that’s attached to the glass! Much more secure that way! > > Yup, just like the people travelling the Washington Beltway with the two mattresses on the roof held down with Ikea filament twine. (Saw that last night, but it’s par for the course around here.) > > Joq > > From: Jim Tynan [mailto:kayakbound_at_yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 12:08 PM > To: 'Jack Martin'; 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > You gotta be kidding me! To the rear windshield wiper?!? > > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Jack Martin > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:31 > To: 'Dave Kruger'; 'Paddlewise' > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > Ten years ago, I was carrying my Chesapeake Light Craft kit-built North Bay Greenland-style kayak, heading home from work in my Audi A4 Avant (wagon), equipped with factory-installed roof rails and Thule, store-bought crossbars. (CLC boats are tough, and this particular kayak made of three millimeter okume plywood, when brand newly built, dropped ten feet from my garage ceiling to the concrete floor; damage was some paint compression and fiberglass loss on the boat and a fairly deep, two inch gouge in the concrete – so this was a pretty tough boat, and was designed with a very pointy bow and stern. Virtually weapons grade! When the Ford F350 crashed into me at a stoplight, the seven millimeter nylon prusik line accessory cord being used as a bow tie down (fastened to a transport/towing hook in the bumper) melted with the impact, but held long enough so that the North Bay did not initially come loose and travel back through the windscreen of the Ford and through the idiot-driver’s forehead. The A4 was toast, having been turned into an A3 hatchback, the driver’s seat was broken off the floor rails, and the impact precipitated an avalanche of plague in my left coronary artery that almost killed me. But the North Bay is still as pretty as it ever was, and the F350 driver’s life was saved by virtue of bow and stern tie downs. > > Other than that, no real reason to use tie downs – fastened to structure and not to the rear windscreen wiper that I saw last weekend – except to save lives and kayaks and Prius roofs. > > Joq Martin > > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Dave Kruger > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 11:02 AM > To: Paddlewise > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > Several years ago, Dan Millsip, of West Coast Paddler lost two boats when the factory installed roof rack tracks ripped out of the roof of his minivan, at speed, outside of Vancouver, BC. Some damage to boats, no injuries or damage to other vehicles or people despite traffic. The culprit? No bow or stern ties. He reported this on WCP. Thereupon ensued a raging debate about the need for bow and stern ties, with about the same content as this discussion. > > Likewise, I was a passenger eying my buddies' surfboards popsicle sticking through the air after they left the roof of a sedan barreling down Hwy 101, near San Diego, circa 1960. No injuries to other vehicles or people, just rail dings and a skegectomy. They went surfing anyway. > > List serve filters prevent me from using the pungent language this idiocy deserves: get the bow and stern anchored with freaking ties, gol darn it! > > Good fortune seems rampant in these descriptions, inasmuch no one has reported injuries to people in following vehicles. Or, maybe ... paddlers whose flying boats decapitated someone, or punched a hole in someone's chest are too shy to speak up ... on the sage advice of their attorneys, of course. ;) > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > > > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > > > > > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > > > > > > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been using the Y-shaped Yakima drydock rack (http://www.yakima.com/shop/water/truck/drydock) on my 4Runner to carry the aft of my enormous Current Designs Libra XT for many years with great success. The bow resides on the Q-Towers-roof-mounted Yakima crossbar. The kayak is situated on the Yakima Mako saddles and secured with the Riverside Heavy Duty Utility Straps from REI. This setup is absolutely rock solid, it handles 120km/h on the hwy as well as some really gnarly logging roads on the Vancouver Island without a single problem, fingers crossed. On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> wrote: > So last saturday I had an ugly start to the weekend. > > I was headed to Norwalk Connecticut for the lighthouse to lighthouse > race - my current favorite race of the season. > Skippers meeting was 8:30 AM, with an estimated drive time of slightly > under 3 hours. I left home at 5, driving my wife's Prius, picking up a > friend at 5:30. On the roof was my Epic V12 Ultra and my paddling > partner had a borrowed Epic V8 Ultra. > > At 6:00 we were in Framingham Mass, chugging along on the Mass Pike at > about 70 MPH. I heard a slight thud, looked forward, then in the > rearview mirror and saw the sterns of the boats. I hit the brakes and > pulled over, with another thump as I started to pull over. > > The roof rack had come off the car, first the front rack , then with the > wind resistance the back rack was forced backwards, and peeled off as > the 'door hooks' left the door frame and went into the indent along the > windows behind the door. > > About 75 yards back the boats and the rack were in the breakdown lane - > avoiding any impact with the few other cars, or large trucks, on the > road. We jogged back down the road to see what happened. The V8's > damage was a 1 to 2 inch chunk out of the gelcoat in the bow - all > gelcoat, the fabric wasn't even exposed. The V12 didn't fare as well. > From the damage it looks like the boats flipped in the air, so that the > rack was above the boats, and the assembly ground into the pavement on > top of the bow on the V12 and the end of one roof rack bar. As the > boats and rack slowed down there was a small scuff to the front of the > coaming, and behind the cockpit the deck line was severed, leaving a > minor scuff (amazing that a deck line avoided more damage) and then the > stern slapped into the guard rail. There's structural damage to the > boat, in the final 2 feet of the stern. > > We gave up on going to the race, sniff, and drove home on back roads, > never getting about 50 MPH. > > I've found a custom boat builder to do the repair work - his comment > after looking at it - "no big deal". > > The V12 has no holes or handles and nothing to tie anything to outside > of the cockpit. So after 12+ years of driving around with surf skis > which have no way to attach a bow tie down, I'll be finding a way... > > $1500 damage to my wife's prius. She's not happy with me... > > Later on the ugly day, I took my Mako 6 out for a paddle in Essex MA. > My paddling partner commented I was faster on the beat up mako 6 than I > was on the V12 (prior to damaging it). Depending on the post repair > feel of the V12 I may sell it and return to being an Epic paddler. For > the time being I've got an Epic V10L ultra on loan. If anyone here > weighs less than 165 pounds and likes a lively boat the V10L is good > fun... I'm a bit big/heavy for it at 6 foot and 172 pounds. > > -- > Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I still dont understand what exactly was the failure mode experienced by Kirk. Sounds like it was whatever is analogous to your Q-towers. Could these separate from the roof? How can one assure that these are absolutely rock solid? I attach my Thule cross bars to the factory roof rails, and I dont know if the roof rails themselves could separate from the roof, though they also feel absolutely rock solid. I dont know how likely the Q-towers are to fail. On Sep 16, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Victor Okunev <venuko_at_gmail.com> wrote: > I've been using the Y-shaped Yakima drydock rack > (http://www.yakima.com/shop/water/truck/drydock) on my 4Runner to > carry the aft of my enormous Current Designs Libra XT for many years > with great success. The bow resides on the Q-Towers-roof-mounted > Yakima crossbar. The kayak is situated on the Yakima Mako saddles and > secured with the Riverside Heavy Duty Utility Straps from REI. This > setup is absolutely rock solid, it handles 120km/h on the hwy as well > as some really gnarly logging roads on the Vancouver Island without a > single problem, fingers crossed. > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> wrote: >> So last saturday I had an ugly start to the weekend. >> >> I was headed to Norwalk Connecticut for the lighthouse to lighthouse >> race - my current favorite race of the season. >> Skippers meeting was 8:30 AM, with an estimated drive time of slightly >> under 3 hours. I left home at 5, driving my wife's Prius, picking up a >> friend at 5:30. On the roof was my Epic V12 Ultra and my paddling >> partner had a borrowed Epic V8 Ultra. >> >> At 6:00 we were in Framingham Mass, chugging along on the Mass Pike at >> about 70 MPH. I heard a slight thud, looked forward, then in the >> rearview mirror and saw the sterns of the boats. I hit the brakes and >> pulled over, with another thump as I started to pull over. >> >> The roof rack had come off the car, first the front rack , then with the >> wind resistance the back rack was forced backwards, and peeled off as >> the 'door hooks' left the door frame and went into the indent along the >> windows behind the door. >> >> About 75 yards back the boats and the rack were in the breakdown lane - >> avoiding any impact with the few other cars, or large trucks, on the >> road. We jogged back down the road to see what happened. The V8's >> damage was a 1 to 2 inch chunk out of the gelcoat in the bow - all >> gelcoat, the fabric wasn't even exposed. The V12 didn't fare as well. >> From the damage it looks like the boats flipped in the air, so that the >> rack was above the boats, and the assembly ground into the pavement on >> top of the bow on the V12 and the end of one roof rack bar. As the >> boats and rack slowed down there was a small scuff to the front of the >> coaming, and behind the cockpit the deck line was severed, leaving a >> minor scuff (amazing that a deck line avoided more damage) and then the >> stern slapped into the guard rail. There's structural damage to the >> boat, in the final 2 feet of the stern. >> >> We gave up on going to the race, sniff, and drove home on back roads, >> never getting about 50 MPH. >> >> I've found a custom boat builder to do the repair work - his comment >> after looking at it - "no big deal". >> >> The V12 has no holes or handles and nothing to tie anything to outside >> of the cockpit. So after 12+ years of driving around with surf skis >> which have no way to attach a bow tie down, I'll be finding a way... >> >> $1500 damage to my wife's prius. She's not happy with me... >> >> Later on the ugly day, I took my Mako 6 out for a paddle in Essex MA. >> My paddling partner commented I was faster on the beat up mako 6 than I >> was on the V12 (prior to damaging it). Depending on the post repair >> feel of the V12 I may sell it and return to being an Epic paddler. For >> the time being I've got an Epic V10L ultra on loan. If anyone here >> weighs less than 165 pounds and likes a lively boat the V10L is good >> fun... I'm a bit big/heavy for it at 6 foot and 172 pounds. >> >> -- >> Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Also a satisfied user of the Yakima drydock rack. Best in the version for a 2 inch receiver. We also carried big boats over rough roads, with bow and stern ties, Q towers on the cab of a pickup truck. Not a big fan of Q towers, but thats what fits contemporary vehicles. Man, I wish vehicles had rain gutters! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -------- Original message -------- From Victor Okunev <venuko_at_gmail.com> Date: 09/16/2014 9:09 AM (GMT-08:00) To Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> Cc Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject Re: [Paddlewise] not a good morning I've been using the Y-shaped Yakima drydock rack (http://www.yakima.com/shop/water/truck/drydock) on my 4Runner to carry the aft of my enormous Current Designs Libra XT for many years with great success. The bow resides on the Q-Towers-roof-mounted Yakima crossbar. The kayak is situated on the Yakima Mako saddles and secured with the Riverside Heavy Duty Utility Straps from REI. This setup is absolutely rock solid, it handles 120km/h on the hwy as well as some really gnarly logging roads on the Vancouver Island without a single problem, fingers crossed. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yeah, bring back the rain gutters. I never figured out why they disappeared except probably cheaper to stamp the roof panels without them. My '89 Toyota All-trac wagon had them and I used to carry a Seda tango on a Yakima rack with ease all over the great lakes and PNW. I would still have that car if I didn't live in the rust belt. I noticed this summer in the 2nd largest town in Greenland, Sisimiut, there were numerous Toyota All-tracs running around in great shape. Toyota only made them for a few years. -mike On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > Also a satisfied user of the Yakima drydock rack. Best in the version for > a 2 inch receiver. We also carried big boats over rough roads, with bow > and stern ties, Q towers on the cab of a pickup truck. Not a big fan of Q > towers, but thats what fits contemporary vehicles. Man, I wish vehicles > had rain gutters! > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From Victor Okunev <venuko_at_gmail.com> > Date: 09/16/2014 9:09 AM (GMT-08:00) > To Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> > Cc Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> > Subject Re: [Paddlewise] not a good morning > > > I've been using the Y-shaped Yakima drydock rack > (http://www.yakima.com/shop/water/truck/drydock) on my 4Runner to > carry the aft of my enormous Current Designs Libra XT for many years > with great success. The bow resides on the Q-Towers-roof-mounted > Yakima crossbar. The kayak is situated on the Yakima Mako saddles and > secured with the Riverside Heavy Duty Utility Straps from REI. This > setup is absolutely rock solid, it handles 120km/h on the hwy as well > as some really gnarly logging roads on the Vancouver Island without a > single problem, fingers crossed. > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rain gutters! Amen. My ’95 F150 has them, and the cap on back has artificial rain gutters – not sure if they’re Thule of Yak, but I think both still make them. The rig is solid. My ’90 Audi Coupe Quattro had slots built into the sides of the roof for Thule mounts, and my 2010 Mini Cooper has similar slots built into the car – but takes only Mini roof rack mounts. But they’re solid, as well, and resemble carrying handles for the car itself. Very stylish. You could add artificial rain gutters to your vehicle, Dave, but obviously it requires drilling holes in the roof and you have a semi-permanent installation. Joq Martin Canoe Neck Creek, Abell, Maryland From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Dave Kruger Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 12:34 PM To: Victor Okunev; Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] not a good morning Also a satisfied user of the Yakima drydock rack. Best in the version for a 2 inch receiver. We also carried big boats over rough roads, with bow and stern ties, Q towers on the cab of a pickup truck. Not a big fan of Q towers, but thats what fits contemporary vehicles. Man, I wish vehicles had rain gutters! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -------- Original message -------- >From Victor Okunev <venuko_at_gmail.com> Date: 09/16/2014 9:09 AM (GMT-08:00) To Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com> Cc Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject Re: [Paddlewise] not a good morning I've been using the Y-shaped Yakima drydock rack (http://www.yakima.com/shop/water/truck/drydock) on my 4Runner to carry the aft of my enormous Current Designs Libra XT for many years with great success. The bow resides on the Q-Towers-roof-mounted Yakima crossbar. The kayak is situated on the Yakima Mako saddles and secured with the Riverside Heavy Duty Utility Straps from REI. This setup is absolutely rock solid, it handles 120km/h on the hwy as well as some really gnarly logging roads on the Vancouver Island without a single problem, fingers crossed. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Interesting conversation. As kayaks and surf-skis get longer and the materials used in their construction get lighter I think that the chances for the boats to act as airfoils increases dramatically. And some vehicle designs can probably make this even worse. Since I can never explain anything without telling a story first, I'll not break with tradition. Feel free to skim. Now that I'm over 70 years old I tell stories without shame. Over my adult lifetime I have migrated from sleeping in a down bag covered with a plastic tarp in the snow on a ski hill cabin balcony to a diesel powered motor home. Mostly just to give myself a comfortable place to sit and read a book (seriously!) but also because it's easier to get up in the middle of the night and pee in a real toilet than it was to find my way out of a tent (and don't get me started on pee-bottles). It turns out that most of the places I like to go for "camping" (notice the quotes) are not overly supplied with electrical plugins (or water and sewer for that matter) so having spent years on a cruising sailboat in the 1980s with a wind generator and solar panels I started looking at alternative methods of satisfying my craving for electricity. I still have the wind generator but memories of the noises it also generated remain vivid. The solar panels we had on the boat had an epoxy coating that yellowed from long exposure to sun. (The manufacturer, when asked about the "lifetime" warranty he had promised told me that it was my own fault for leaving them out in the sun.) So I had to find new solar panels. Fortunately, they are quite cheap-ish now. The big surprise came when I wanted to mount my large (36"x48" or so) panels on the roof of the motor home. I was not excited about drilling holes despite the promises of various sealants but it turns out that there is an alternative. Double-back tape. There is at least one solar outfit in Oregon that installs solar panels using double-back tape; specifically 3M VHB (Very High Bond) tape. And I was assured by several people who own motor homes made by the same outfit mine was made by that the VHB tape works. Now my motor home has a fiberglass roof with gelcoat (it is a Foretravel Grand Villa 36' if anyone is curious) and VHB tape works very well to form an extremely strong chemical bond with this type of roof. At any rate, against all my instincts, I mounted two panels using about 1.5 square inches of 3M VHB tape (bought from Amazon - local suppliers just said "huh?" when asked about VHB tape) on each of the 4 corners. About 2,000 miles later (at speeds of up to 70mph but mostly 60mph) the panels are still up there and still tightly bonded to the roof. I am not advocating that anyone use only VHB tape for their kayak racks. But if you want to enhance the hold-down strength of your kayak racks you might consider experimenting with this stuff. It does bond well to metal (after all, the mounts I used are metal) but you'd have to be pretty hard-core to scrape the paint on your new Prius down to bare metal; then again, four patches of bare metal might be cheaper than a new rooftop repair. I don't think I'd use VHB tape as the *only* mount method but as an enhancement to a mechanical method of some sort. This stuff is pretty permanent once it sets and seals (I've had to cut pieces off the roof with a razor blade and bits of it still sit there) but if the mechanical method fails then the VHB would be a back up. And vice-versa. I let mine sit and cure for ten days in the hot sun of central Washington's desert. Just an idea. For What It's Worth. Etc. But the stuff does work surprisingly well. I slathered Dicor all over the mounts to make them more aerodynamic and I am considering fabricating an aluminum wind screen "just in case". But there is a pretty large group of RVers driving around with solar panels installed with this stuff now. And we're no crazier than paddlers... Craig :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A friend once told me a story about skis flying off the roof of their car after a day of skiing. It impressed me enough that I try to be very careful hauling anything on the top of any car. I've done a mattress and a sofa, and this was accomplished at slow speed on quiet streets. Brad On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 7:18 AM, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > Interesting conversation. As kayaks and surf-skis get longer and the > materials used in their construction get lighter I think that the chances > for the boats to act as airfoils increases dramatically. And some vehicle > designs can probably make this even worse. > > Since I can never explain anything without telling a story first, I'll not > break with tradition. Feel free to skim. Now that I'm over 70 years old I > tell stories without shame. > > Over my adult lifetime I have migrated from sleeping in a down bag covered > with a plastic tarp in the snow on a ski hill cabin balcony to a diesel > powered motor home. Mostly just to give myself a comfortable place to sit > and read a book (seriously!) but also because it's easier to get up in the > middle of the night and pee in a real toilet than it was to find my way out > of a tent (and don't get me started on pee-bottles). > > It turns out that most of the places I like to go for "camping" (notice > the quotes) are not overly supplied with electrical plugins (or water and > sewer for that matter) so having spent years on a cruising sailboat in the > 1980s with a wind generator and solar panels I started looking at > alternative methods of satisfying my craving for electricity. I still have > the wind generator but memories of the noises it also generated remain > vivid. The solar panels we had on the boat had an epoxy coating that > yellowed from long exposure to sun. (The manufacturer, when asked about the > "lifetime" warranty he had promised told me that it was my own fault for > leaving them out in the sun.) So I had to find new solar panels. > Fortunately, they are quite cheap-ish now. > > The big surprise came when I wanted to mount my large (36"x48" or so) > panels on the roof of the motor home. I was not excited about drilling > holes despite the promises of various sealants but it turns out that there > is an alternative. Double-back tape. There is at least one solar outfit in > Oregon that installs solar panels using double-back tape; specifically 3M > VHB (Very High Bond) tape. And I was assured by several people who own > motor homes made by the same outfit mine was made by that the VHB tape > works. > > Now my motor home has a fiberglass roof with gelcoat (it is a Foretravel > Grand Villa 36' if anyone is curious) and VHB tape works very well to form > an extremely strong chemical bond with this type of roof. At any rate, > against all my instincts, I mounted two panels using about 1.5 square > inches of 3M VHB tape (bought from Amazon - local suppliers just said > "huh?" when asked about VHB tape) on each of the 4 corners. About 2,000 > miles later (at speeds of up to 70mph but mostly 60mph) the panels are > still up there and still tightly bonded to the roof. > > I am not advocating that anyone use only VHB tape for their kayak racks. > But if you want to enhance the hold-down strength of your kayak racks you > might consider experimenting with this stuff. It does bond well to metal > (after all, the mounts I used are metal) but you'd have to be pretty > hard-core to scrape the paint on your new Prius down to bare metal; then > again, four patches of bare metal might be cheaper than a new rooftop > repair. > > I don't think I'd use VHB tape as the *only* mount method but as an > enhancement to a mechanical method of some sort. This stuff is pretty > permanent once it sets and seals (I've had to cut pieces off the roof with > a razor blade and bits of it still sit there) but if the mechanical method > fails then the VHB would be a back up. And vice-versa. I let mine sit and > cure for ten days in the hot sun of central Washington's desert. > > Just an idea. For What It's Worth. Etc. But the stuff does work > surprisingly well. I slathered Dicor all over the mounts to make them more > aerodynamic and I am considering fabricating an aluminum wind screen "just > in case". But there is a pretty large group of RVers driving around with > solar panels installed with this stuff now. > > And we're no crazier than paddlers... > > Craig :) > > > -- Bradford R. Crain Fariborz Maseeh Department of Mathematics and Statistics Portland State University 724 SW Harrison St. / 334 Neuberger Hall Portland, Or. 97201 E-mail: crainb_at_pdx.edu Phone: 503-725-3127 Fax: 503-725-3661 Dept. Phone: 503-725-3621 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Weak design element in the Q tower setup, IMHO is the clips. Engagement with the door frame varies and can be tricky to get it just right, e.g., TIGHT! I think that is what failed, from Kirks description. Kirk? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -------- Original message -------- From Gerald Foodman <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net> Date: 09/16/2014 9:25 AM (GMT-08:00) To Victor Okunev <venuko_at_gmail.com> Cc Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>,paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject Re: [Paddlewise] not a good morning I still don’t understand what exactly was the failure mode experienced by Kirk. Sounds like it was whatever is analogous to your Q-towers. Could these separate from the roof? How can one assure that these are “absolutely rock solid”? I attach my Thule cross bars to the factory roof rails, and I don’t know if the roof rails themselves could separate from the roof, though they also feel “absolutely rock solid”. I don’t know how likely the Q-towers are to fail. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert's tale reminds me of one Matt Broze tells, I seem to recall, of a single, likewise holding a sizeable quantity of water, which broke when the transport vehicle made a sharp descent off a full size curb edge. I forget where it cracked. Maybe Matt will come up and clean up my foggy memories with authoritative details. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR*************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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